Cleveland Aviation - 2023

CLEguy · Sun Jan 22, 2023 1:35 pm

Wonder if/when Shake Shack and Wao Bao will reopen. They were my two favorite concessions at CLE!

avtcle · Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:20 pm

Anyone know what United charter UA2785 CLE-SXM is for?

avtcle · Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:29 pm

AA sked update May 2023

CLE-DFW: 5.0 (5x B738)
CLE-CLT: 5.0 (1x A321, 4x B738)
CLE-DCA: 4.0 (1x E175, 3x CRJ9)
CLE-ORD: 4.0 (1x B738, 2x E175, 1x CRJ2)
CLE-PHL: 3.0 (1x A319, 1x E175, 1x E145)
CLE-LGA: 3.0 (3x E175)
CLE-JFK: 2.0 (2x E175)
CLE-MIA: 1.0 (1x B738)

27 daily

greenair727 · Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:26 pm

avtcle wrote:
AA sked update May 2023

CLE-DFW: 5.0 (5x B738)
CLE-CLT: 5.0 (1x A321, 4x B738)
CLE-DCA: 4.0 (1x E175, 3x CRJ9)
CLE-ORD: 4.0 (1x B738, 2x E175, 1x CRJ2)
CLE-PHL: 3.0 (1x A319, 1x E175, 1x E145)
CLE-LGA: 3.0 (3x E175)
CLE-JFK: 2.0 (2x E175)
CLE-MIA: 1.0 (1x B738)

27 daily

Thats up from 24 for the Feb schedule. Its 2 less than UA's schedule of 29 daily. That hardly makes CLE a UA "focus city" if AA will soon surpass them in flights. Looks like AA is still operating some smaller planes than UA, so the capacity isn't there yet, but the more important frequency of service is there, except for Miami. I like the steady growth of AA---just wish DL and UA followed suit. And to locations other than their hubs....

greenair727 · Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:29 pm

avtcle wrote:
Anyone know what United charter UA2785 CLE-SXM is for?

Don't know, but its nice escape from the snow! For these UA charters--and those of other airlines for that matter--that depart from Hopkins. Do they leave from the main terminal or do pax board at some other facility?

ncflyer · Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:45 pm

It's still less than our peers in PIT and CMH, seats and frequencies! Have to assume UA eats in to that since UA is pretty small at both of those airports.

I don't feel like typing everything out right now but:
Both markets have equal to or greater than Cleveland's frequency in every case.

PIT and CMH have at least 3 A321's to DFW. PIT also has 4 A321s to CLT, granted PIT is a legacy city.
Neither of those airports have any 50 seaters.
Both airports retain service to PHX.
Both have 2 mainline to PHL not one.
Both have more frequencies to NYC-- 8 to CMH compared to 5 for CLE, 6 to PIT.
Ditto DCA, 4 CLE vs. 5 PIT vs 6 CMH. I know CLE DCA is a super easy drive but it's even easier from PIT.

xms3200 · Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:48 pm

UA2785 was a special ferry flt. carrying 2 techs from CLE to fix another -700 that is out of service in SXM. There was another flt crew on the plane to bring the stranded pax in SXM back to ORD.

masseybrown · Sun Jan 22, 2023 6:08 pm

avtcle wrote:
AA sked update May 2023

CLE-DFW: 5.0 (5x B738)
CLE-CLT: 5.0 (1x A321, 4x B738)
CLE-DCA: 4.0 (1x E175, 3x CRJ9)
CLE-ORD: 4.0 (1x B738, 2x E175, 1x CRJ2)
CLE-PHL: 3.0 (1x A319, 1x E175, 1x E145)
CLE-LGA: 3.0 (3x E175)
CLE-JFK: 2.0 (2x E175)
CLE-MIA: 1.0 (1x B738)

27 daily

That's nice, but it's all hub flying. I was hoping AA might throw in a CLE-DUB feeder flight, like STL or even MCI. AA and IAG (EI's owner) are partners, after all. Wishful thinking, I guess.

ChrisPBacon · Sun Jan 22, 2023 7:21 pm

masseybrown wrote:
That's nice, but it's all hub flying. I was hoping AA might throw in a CLE-DUB feeder flight, like STL or even MCI. AA and IAG (EI's owner) are partners, after all. Wishful thinking, I guess.

AA doesn't have the international aircraft to fully build out their hubs, let alone start P2P service. I can't imagine that CLE would even be high on the list if they did. UA pulled out, and ULCCs filled the void driving yields here down. There can't possibly be a large of AA frequent flyers in a former CO/UA hub. Wishful thinking by far.

avtcle · Sun Jan 22, 2023 8:15 pm

xms3200 wrote:
UA2785 was a special ferry flt. carrying 2 techs from CLE to fix another -700 that is out of service in SXM. There was another flt crew on the plane to bring the stranded pax in SXM back to ORD.

Interesting - thanks!

greenair727 · Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:56 am

ChrisPBacon wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
That's nice, but it's all hub flying. I was hoping AA might throw in a CLE-DUB feeder flight, like STL or even MCI. AA and IAG (EI's owner) are partners, after all. Wishful thinking, I guess.

AA doesn't have the international aircraft to fully build out their hubs, let alone start P2P service. I can't imagine that CLE would even be high on the list if they did. UA pulled out, and ULCCs filled the void driving yields here down. There can't possibly be a large of AA frequent flyers in a former CO/UA hub. Wishful thinking by far.

ULCC filled some of the void--like Florida--but not to, or sufficiently to, other markets where there is demand--LAX, MCI, SAN, PDX, SJU, etc. People move from city to city all the time, so while CLE is not a traditional AAdvantage city, people who move from Dallas or Chicago etc. may well be, plus UA's loyalty and following has been weakening over the years, so an organic AA base is evolving. Its not unreasonable to hope for an MCI, STL, or other feeder city on AA that will simultaneously feed EI while giving AA a new monopoly route. Low on aircraft? just take it from CMH or other other stations if needed as CLE can demand higher yields than other city pairs with their service.

masseybrown · Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:27 am

ChrisPBacon wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
That's nice, but it's all hub flying. I was hoping AA might throw in a CLE-DUB feeder flight, like STL or even MCI. AA and IAG (EI's owner) are partners, after all. Wishful thinking, I guess.

AA doesn't have the international aircraft to fully build out their hubs, let alone start P2P service. I can't imagine that CLE would even be high on the list if they did. UA pulled out, and ULCCs filled the void driving yields here down. There can't possibly be a large of AA frequent flyers in a former CO/UA hub. Wishful thinking by far.

Why would they need an international aircraft to fly CLE-MCI? I was thinking maybe an E-175 that CLE would give new route support $$$ used where there's enough traffic to support it regardless.

But they didn't, of course, which makes it all moot.

fun2fly · Mon Jan 23, 2023 11:40 am

avtcle wrote:
AA sked update May 2023

CLE-DFW: 5.0 (5x B738)
CLE-CLT: 5.0 (1x A321, 4x B738)
CLE-DCA: 4.0 (1x E175, 3x CRJ9)
CLE-ORD: 4.0 (1x B738, 2x E175, 1x CRJ2)
CLE-PHL: 3.0 (1x A319, 1x E175, 1x E145)
CLE-LGA: 3.0 (3x E175)
CLE-JFK: 2.0 (2x E175)
CLE-MIA: 1.0 (1x B738)

27 daily

ORD really never gets any love from AA, the times are also very tough. DFW at 5x is a lot of capacity and shows you there real hub power. AA has grown well in CLE relatively with most of those routes at or near all time highs in capacity and seats. AA doesn't have a ton of new a/c coming in so their capabilities are a bit limited and many of the suggestions offered won't pan out. LAX someday? Maybe, but AA can get you to most of the places ex-LAX right from DFW without issue so it's not overly alluring.

MohawkWeekend · Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:31 pm

Way back (waaaayy back) didn't American operate two flights daily with 707's and then later DC-10's to LAX?

CLEguy · Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:56 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Way back (waaaayy back) didn't American operate two flights daily with 707's and then later DC-10's to LAX?

They sure did. Here's an AA timetable from 1967 showing the 707 flights. http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages ... a67-03.jpg

And here's some history of AA's use of DC-10s at CLE. https://www.aviationcle.com/post/the-ju ... ves-at-cle

In fact, AA was the first airline to inaugurate nonstop CLE-LAX service back in 1957 on DC-7s. https://www.aviationcle.com/post/jetman ... nd-1960-65

MohawkWeekend · Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:12 pm

What great articles ! Hard to imagine "Over 2.1 million passengers used CLE in 1960, while total flight operations declined, as larger planes, including the new jets, replaced smaller aircraft (CLE dropped from the 11th busiest airport in the United States in operations in 1959 to 13th in 1960)."

Thanks for sharing - I spent many a day on that observation deck in the 60's.

fun2fly · Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:27 pm

2022 Pax #s = 8.7mm

https://www.cleveland.com/travel/2023/0 ... years.html

SDFguy · Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:36 pm

masseybrown wrote:
That's nice, but it's all hub flying. I was hoping AA might throw in a CLE-DUB feeder flight, like STL or even MCI. AA and IAG (EI's owner) are partners, after all. Wishful thinking, I guess.

Why would AA do that instead of just routing passengers thru ORD?

N766UA · Mon Jan 23, 2023 11:13 pm

SDFguy wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
That's nice, but it's all hub flying. I was hoping AA might throw in a CLE-DUB feeder flight, like STL or even MCI. AA and IAG (EI's owner) are partners, after all. Wishful thinking, I guess.

Why would AA do that instead of just routing passengers thru ORD?

I guess you really just do not get how vitally important CLE is, huh?. :roll:

LifetimeGS · Mon Jan 23, 2023 11:22 pm

Enirilia posted new F9 base coming Jan 31. He didn't think no it would be CLE. Today F9 said CLE base coming soon.

ncflyer · Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:23 am

fun2fly wrote:
2022 Pax #s = 8.7mm

https://www.cleveland.com/travel/2023/0 ... years.html

This is really an article worth reading, including pipe dream thoughts on new destinations that every airport in the midwest says is on their short list, MCI, SAN, AUS, etc. and they want more seats to DC and NY.

There seems to be optimism in the article that CLE will return to 10MM pax in 2023, 15% growth, with a meh economic outlook?? And worst of all I'm just not seeing signs that the airlines are adding back that much capacity this year. Am I missing something?

CLEguy · Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:26 am

LifetimeGS wrote:
Enirilia posted new F9 base coming Jan 31. He didn't think no it would be CLE. Today F9 said CLE base coming soon.

Do you have a source for this? Thanks.

CLEguy · Tue Jan 24, 2023 1:42 am

fun2fly wrote:
2022 Pax #s = 8.7mm

https://www.cleveland.com/travel/2023/0 ... years.html

Did a quick search for peer airports. No year-end data yet from CMH nor IND:

CLE 8.69 million
PIT 8.1 million
CVG 7.6 million

LifetimeGS · Tue Jan 24, 2023 1:43 am

Sorry posted on my phone, should have said, today an F9 FA announced on the flight (as he was pushing the credit card) that CLE would be announced as the next new base and staffed once DFW is complete.....couldnt edit it....

avtcle · Tue Jan 24, 2023 2:21 am

I’ve indeed heard from a UA pilot friend that frontier crews coming in and out of CLE say we are next up for a crew base. Beginning this summer. First heard of it a few months ago.

masseybrown · Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:20 am

LifetimeGS wrote:
Sorry posted on my phone, should have said, today an F9 FA announced on the flight (as he was pushing the credit card) that CLE would be announced as the next new base and staffed once DFW is complete.....couldnt edit it....

An announcement is due from Frontier on Jan 31. I don't know what it will be, but it's said to include a crew base and a number of new flights.

EDIT: I should say a "rumored announcement".

MohawkWeekend · Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:54 am

N766UA wrote:
SDFguy wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
That's nice, but it's all hub flying. I was hoping AA might throw in a CLE-DUB feeder flight, like STL or even MCI. AA and IAG (EI's owner) are partners, after all. Wishful thinking, I guess.

Why would AA do that instead of just routing passengers thru ORD?

I guess you really just do not get how vitally important CLE is, huh?.

Hey - in 1960 we were UA's second largest operation.

masseybrown · Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:04 pm

SDFguy wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
That's nice, but it's all hub flying. I was hoping AA might throw in a CLE-DUB feeder flight, like STL or even MCI. AA and IAG (EI's owner) are partners, after all. Wishful thinking, I guess.

Why would AA do that instead of just routing passengers thru ORD?

AA is trimming ORD relative to its other hubs and is the second biggest airline in terms of traffic in CLE. EI is in the process of joining OneWorld. EI has also been approved to join the AA-BA joint venture. Plus, one E175 flight a day would likely be profitable on its own, at least in the summer. It's a modest, low-risk investment. CLE would underwrite a good bit of their "new route" startup costs. I think a good salesman could make the case.

greenair727 · Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:58 pm

masseybrown wrote:
SDFguy wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
That's nice, but it's all hub flying. I was hoping AA might throw in a CLE-DUB feeder flight, like STL or even MCI. AA and IAG (EI's owner) are partners, after all. Wishful thinking, I guess.

Why would AA do that instead of just routing passengers thru ORD?

AA is trimming ORD relative to its other hubs and is the second biggest airline in terms of traffic in CLE. EI is in the process of joining OneWorld. EI has also been approved to join the AA-BA joint venture. Plus, one E175 flight a day would likely be profitable on its own, at least in the summer. It's a modest, low-risk investment. CLE would underwrite a good bit of their "new route" startup costs. I think a good salesman could make the case.

Massey---if you have connections at AA, please make the case. I'm not confident that we have any good salesmen at Port Control (or City Hall)...

pitintl · Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:48 pm

masseybrown wrote:
SDFguy wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
That's nice, but it's all hub flying. I was hoping AA might throw in a CLE-DUB feeder flight, like STL or even MCI. AA and IAG (EI's owner) are partners, after all. Wishful thinking, I guess.

Why would AA do that instead of just routing passengers thru ORD?

AA is trimming ORD relative to its other hubs and is the second biggest airline in terms of traffic in CLE. EI is in the process of joining OneWorld. EI has also been approved to join the AA-BA joint venture. Plus, one E175 flight a day would likely be profitable on its own, at least in the summer. It's a modest, low-risk investment. CLE would underwrite a good bit of their "new route" startup costs. I think a good salesman could make the case.

You do know that EI is starting CLE-DUB 4x weekly year round in May right? With EI joining OneWorld, I wouldn't be surprised to see AA codeshare on this route. Makes no sense for AA to start this route, especially from a line station. I'm sure the codeshare will be similar to what they do with RJ out of DTW to AMM.

masseybrown · Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:56 pm

pitintl wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
SDFguy wrote:

Why would AA do that instead of just routing passengers thru ORD?

AA is trimming ORD relative to its other hubs and is the second biggest airline in terms of traffic in CLE. EI is in the process of joining OneWorld. EI has also been approved to join the AA-BA joint venture. Plus, one E175 flight a day would likely be profitable on its own, at least in the summer. It's a modest, low-risk investment. CLE would underwrite a good bit of their "new route" startup costs. I think a good salesman could make the case.

You do know that EI is starting CLE-DUB 4x weekly year round in May right? With EI joining OneWorld, I wouldn't be surprised to see AA codeshare on this route. Makes no sense for AA to start this route, especially from a line station. I'm sure the codeshare will be similar to what they do with RJ out of DTW to AMM.

PitIntl, I think you misunderstand me. I'm suggesting that there's a good case for AA to run a feeder flight into CLE to feed the EI DUB flight. SDFguy says no way. His argument is probably more rational, or at least more conventional than mine.

pitintl · Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:07 pm

masseybrown wrote:
pitintl wrote:
masseybrown wrote:

AA is trimming ORD relative to its other hubs and is the second biggest airline in terms of traffic in CLE. EI is in the process of joining OneWorld. EI has also been approved to join the AA-BA joint venture. Plus, one E175 flight a day would likely be profitable on its own, at least in the summer. It's a modest, low-risk investment. CLE would underwrite a good bit of their "new route" startup costs. I think a good salesman could make the case.

You do know that EI is starting CLE-DUB 4x weekly year round in May right? With EI joining OneWorld, I wouldn't be surprised to see AA codeshare on this route. Makes no sense for AA to start this route, especially from a line station. I'm sure the codeshare will be similar to what they do with RJ out of DTW to AMM.

PitIntl, I think you misunderstand me. I'm suggesting that there's a good case for AA to run a feeder flight into CLE to feed the EI DUB flight. SDFguy says no way. His argument is probably more rational, or at least more conventional than mine.

You make a interesting point - what cities are you suggesting for the feeder flight? I know for a fact that AA has direct connections to and from the RJ flight in DTW to multiple hubs. I've been one countless DFW flights where there were folks connecting onward to AMM. I think the EI flight in CLE would certainly get the same, especially with AA putting increased frequencies in CLE from DFW. It's a good way to get additional traffic above an beyond the nonstops AA has to DUB from DFW, CLT, PHL, and ORD.

strangeplanes · Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:42 pm

pitintl wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
pitintl wrote:

You do know that EI is starting CLE-DUB 4x weekly year round in May right? With EI joining OneWorld, I wouldn't be surprised to see AA codeshare on this route. Makes no sense for AA to start this route, especially from a line station. I'm sure the codeshare will be similar to what they do with RJ out of DTW to AMM.

PitIntl, I think you misunderstand me. I'm suggesting that there's a good case for AA to run a feeder flight into CLE to feed the EI DUB flight. SDFguy says no way. His argument is probably more rational, or at least more conventional than mine.

You make a interesting point - what cities are you suggesting for the feeder flight? I know for a fact that AA has direct connections to and from the RJ flight in DTW to multiple hubs. I've been one countless DFW flights where there were folks connecting onward to AMM. I think the EI flight in CLE would certainly get the same, especially with AA putting increased frequencies in CLE from DFW. It's a good way to get additional traffic above an beyond the nonstops AA has to DUB from DFW, CLT, PHL, and ORD.

Who flows over to CLE vs. ORD? Almost every traveler will be better off in a hub. Very few travelers save time or the airlines money by going to CLE.

Midwest City - CLE - DUB - Final Destination

vs.

Midwest City - ORD - Final Destination
Midwest City - JFK - Final Destination
Midwest City - DTW - Final Destination
Midwest City - BOS - Final Destination
Midwest City - Euro Hub - Final Destination
Midwest City - Euro Hub (is the final destination)

greenair727 · Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:58 pm

strangeplanes wrote:
pitintl wrote:
masseybrown wrote:

PitIntl, I think you misunderstand me. I'm suggesting that there's a good case for AA to run a feeder flight into CLE to feed the EI DUB flight. SDFguy says no way. His argument is probably more rational, or at least more conventional than mine.

You make a interesting point - what cities are you suggesting for the feeder flight? I know for a fact that AA has direct connections to and from the RJ flight in DTW to multiple hubs. I've been one countless DFW flights where there were folks connecting onward to AMM. I think the EI flight in CLE would certainly get the same, especially with AA putting increased frequencies in CLE from DFW. It's a good way to get additional traffic above an beyond the nonstops AA has to DUB from DFW, CLT, PHL, and ORD.

Who flows over to CLE vs. ORD? Almost every traveler will be better off in a hub. Very few travelers save time or the airlines money by going to CLE.

Midwest City - CLE - DUB - Final Destination

vs.

Midwest City - ORD - Final Destination
Midwest City - JFK - Final Destination
Midwest City - DTW - Final Destination
Midwest City - BOS - Final Destination
Midwest City - Euro Hub - Final Destination
Midwest City - Euro Hub (is the final destination)

The point you're missing is this: AA could not only provide feeder to EI BUT ALSO serve pax trying to get to CLE from another city that doesn't currently have nonstop service, that, because there is no non-stop service, is not guaranteed to go to AA if AA requires a stop in ORD/DAL/JFK/etc. where equal (or better) options exist on DL or UA (I'd take a transfer on DL at DTW any day over AA at ORD). For example, AA could operate MCI-CLE or STL-CLE or SAN-CLE. Those flights could be timed to allow a connection to EI's CLE-DUB. But if a pax from MCI/STL/SAN is not going to DUB (or beyond), rather is only going to CLE, AA will still get the business as people would have a non stop on MCI/STL/SAN-CLE vs. having to stop somewhere, where AA would be no better than DL or UA and for which people will fly with their loyalty instead. So, AA would be serving a domestic market need, while ALSO benefitting by providing feed and distribution from EI at CLE, which maintains capacity at their hubs (like ORD) for other pax (such as someone going from Omaha to Buffalo).

fun2fly · Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:46 pm

greenair727 wrote:
The point you're missing is this: AA could not only provide feeder to EI BUT ALSO serve pax trying to get to CLE from another city that doesn't currently have nonstop service, that, because there is no non-stop service, is not guaranteed to go to AA if AA requires a stop in ORD/DAL/JFK/etc. where equal (or better) options exist on DL or UA (I'd take a transfer on DL at DTW any day over AA at ORD). For example, AA could operate MCI-CLE or STL-CLE or SAN-CLE. Those flights could be timed to allow a connection to EI's CLE-DUB. But if a pax from MCI/STL/SAN is not going to DUB (or beyond), rather is only going to CLE, AA will still get the business as people would have a non stop on MCI/STL/SAN-CLE vs. having to stop somewhere, where AA would be no better than DL or UA and for which people will fly with their loyalty instead. So, AA would be serving a domestic market need, while ALSO benefitting by providing feed and distribution from EI at CLE, which maintains capacity at their hubs (like ORD) for other pax (such as someone going from Omaha to Buffalo).

CO was really good at this back in the day, IND/STL/MCI and similar pax went over CLE to LHR/CDG. Your point is valid, but I can't see that happening before AA gets PHX back daily year round. So many so-CAL and HI connections and they still can't make that work (amazing HP did for so many years).

ncflyer · Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:15 pm

I would never connect at a place like CLE for TATL-- if something goes wrong with a late connection or a cancellation you would have literally zero options to get out that night. DTW ORD BOS JFK etc-- there are alternatives. I suppose if CLE is a one trick pony with only the flight to Ireland, it's more likely flight would be held for late comers but still-- stuff happens. And by the way PIT hasn't seen this happen with several years of LHR now in the books, bigger plane more service.

jplatts · Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:10 pm

ChrisPBacon wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
That's nice, but it's all hub flying. I was hoping AA might throw in a CLE-DUB feeder flight, like STL or even MCI. AA and IAG (EI's owner) are partners, after all. Wishful thinking, I guess.

AA doesn't have the international aircraft to fully build out their hubs, let alone start P2P service. I can't imagine that CLE would even be high on the list if they did. UA pulled out, and ULCCs filled the void driving yields here down. There can't possibly be a large of AA frequent flyers in a former CO/UA hub. Wishful thinking by far.

MCI already has 1-stop connectivity onto EI ORD/JFK-DUB and AA ORD/CLT/PHL-DUB.

STL already has 1-stop connectivity onto EI ORD-DUB and AA ORD/CLT/PHL-DUB.

Most of the other major contiguous U.S. markets west of CLE also already have 1-stop connectivity onto AA/EI U.S. to DUB flights.

AA also likely now has a bigger FF base in the CLE market than it did 10 years ago with AA carrying more of the connecting traffic out of CLE than UA, DL, or WN to some of the non-AA hub destinations that don't currently have any nonstop service out of CLE.

jplatts · Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:24 pm

Here are the Q3 2022 PDEW's out of CLE/CAK to the top contiguous U.S. markets traveled to from the CLE/CAK market that do not currently have any nonstop service from CLE or CAK:
CLE/CAK-MYR - 154 (NK CLE-MYR nonstop service scheduled to resume on 4/5/2023)
CLE/CAK-SAN - 117
CLE/CAK-AUS - 95
CLE/CAK-RDU - 83 (F9 CLE-RDU nonstop service scheduled to resume on 4/21/2023)
CLE/CAK-PDX - 76
CLE/CAK-SLC - 73
CLE/CAK-MCI - 71
CLE/CAK-JAX - 62
CLE/CAK-SAT - 59
CLE/CAK-ORF/PHF - 49

fun2fly · Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:50 pm

jplatts wrote:
Here are the Q3 2022 PDEW's out of CLE/CAK to the top contiguous U.S. markets traveled to from the CLE/CAK market that do not currently have any nonstop service from CLE or CAK:
CLE/CAK-MYR - 154 (NK CLE-MYR nonstop service scheduled to resume on 4/5/2023)
CLE/CAK-SAN - 117
CLE/CAK-AUS - 95
CLE/CAK-RDU - 83 (F9 CLE-RDU nonstop service scheduled to resume on 4/21/2023)
CLE/CAK-PDX - 76
CLE/CAK-SLC - 73
CLE/CAK-MCI - 71
CLE/CAK-JAX - 62
CLE/CAK-SAT - 59
CLE/CAK-ORF/PHF - 49

AUS on a E75 from UA or AA sure seems like a low risk add 1x daily. I'm sure the SAN would spur vacations + steal some SNA/LAX traffic to make a 73G/319 feasible.

Trk1 · Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:42 pm

Let's get real--- no airline is going to add connecting flights to a non-revenue sharing alliance member at a city that has 4 flights per week on a government funded route. Also remember that not only United and Continental but also US airways have had hubs in Cleveland that have been removed. Connecting flights will not be added. Also AA had a mini hun in the late 1970's and it was pulled. With less current business traffic MCI non stops are less likely to be added. In the past Eastern, Continental along with United in the 1980s have dropped non-stop from Cleveland to MCI. Until business traffic really picks up the adds will be daily for leisure travelers.

strangeplanes · Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:45 pm

greenair727 wrote:
strangeplanes wrote:
pitintl wrote:

You make a interesting point - what cities are you suggesting for the feeder flight? I know for a fact that AA has direct connections to and from the RJ flight in DTW to multiple hubs. I've been one countless DFW flights where there were folks connecting onward to AMM. I think the EI flight in CLE would certainly get the same, especially with AA putting increased frequencies in CLE from DFW. It's a good way to get additional traffic above an beyond the nonstops AA has to DUB from DFW, CLT, PHL, and ORD.

Who flows over to CLE vs. ORD? Almost every traveler will be better off in a hub. Very few travelers save time or the airlines money by going to CLE.

Midwest City - CLE - DUB - Final Destination

vs.

Midwest City - ORD - Final Destination
Midwest City - JFK - Final Destination
Midwest City - DTW - Final Destination
Midwest City - BOS - Final Destination
Midwest City - Euro Hub - Final Destination
Midwest City - Euro Hub (is the final destination)

The point you're missing is this: AA could not only provide feeder to EI BUT ALSO serve pax trying to get to CLE from another city that doesn't currently have nonstop service, that, because there is no non-stop service, is not guaranteed to go to AA if AA requires a stop in ORD/DAL/JFK/etc. where equal (or better) options exist on DL or UA (I'd take a transfer on DL at DTW any day over AA at ORD). For example, AA could operate MCI-CLE or STL-CLE or SAN-CLE. Those flights could be timed to allow a connection to EI's CLE-DUB. But if a pax from MCI/STL/SAN is not going to DUB (or beyond), rather is only going to CLE, AA will still get the business as people would have a non stop on MCI/STL/SAN-CLE vs. having to stop somewhere, where AA would be no better than DL or UA and for which people will fly with their loyalty instead. So, AA would be serving a domestic market need, while ALSO benefitting by providing feed and distribution from EI at CLE, which maintains capacity at their hubs (like ORD) for other pax (such as someone going from Omaha to Buffalo).

There is like 0 feed is what I am saying. Connecting at CLE only makes sense if DUB is your final destination (that isn't many passengers). Even then most other cities are better off connecting through a hub to get to DUB (wide body amenities, lounges, more frequency, redundancy if delayed or canceled).

masseybrown · Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:59 pm

The biggest argument against my feeder idea, which nobody has mentioned, is that AA has already said they are going to build up CVG.

What bothers me is that most of the counter arguments are premised on the idea that a non-hub can only have spoke routes to a hub. This is what TWA and Panam counted on, concentrating all their TATL on IDL/JFK service; it only worked for a while and then suddenly it didn't.

SDFguy · Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:16 pm

masseybrown wrote:
The biggest argument against my feeder idea, which nobody has mentioned, is that AA has already said they are going to build up CVG.

What bothers me is that most of the counter arguments are premised on the idea that a non-hub can only have spoke routes to a hub. This is what TWA and Panam counted on, concentrating all their TATL on IDL/JFK service; it only worked for a while and then suddenly it didn't.

Well i guess it's a good thing then that AA just doesn't concentrate their TATL on JFK. They also have PHL, CLT, MIA, ORD & DFW. They don't need to and won't route passengers through CLE.

No matter how much it "bothers" you, all of the counter arguments are based on reality.

joeman · Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:07 pm

Pretty sure everyone knows that with the exception of ULCC's, the airline foundation and concentration is on established hubs. So let's go back to the original post:

masseybrown wrote:

That's nice, but it's all hub flying. I was hoping AA might throw in a CLE-DUB feeder flight, like STL or even MCI. AA and IAG (EI's owner) are partners, after all. Wishful thinking, I guess.

I'm only seeing some hope and wishful thinking

BA744PHX · Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:29 pm

joeman wrote:
Pretty sure everyone knows that with the exception of ULCC's, the airline foundation and concentration is on established hubs. So let's go back to the original post:

masseybrown wrote:

That's nice, but it's all hub flying. I was hoping AA might throw in a CLE-DUB feeder flight, like STL or even MCI. AA and IAG (EI's owner) are partners, after all. Wishful thinking, I guess.

I'm only seeing some hope and wishful thinking

Why would AA even care about adding feeder flights for a 4 weekly non hun flight? They have hubs to do that, it’s like saying is AA going to add routes out of CVG to feed BA service? Nope

MohawkWeekend · Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:14 am

Did a quick check of fares on a travel website for the cost of a couch non-stop round trip June 14 returning June 21
CLE - DUB $1323
PIT - LHR $1677
CVG - LHR $1127
DTW -LHR $1712
STL - FRA $1605

The cheapest 1 stop connection between CLE - LHR on those dates is $1312 via JFK on DL/VS. First of all - so much for cheap flights from anywhere. And it appears that if you want a non-stop you'd save a bundle driving to CVG instead of PIT. And no toll roads to boat.

CLEguy · Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:46 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Did a quick check of fares on a travel website for the cost of a couch non-stop round trip June 14 returning June 21
CLE - DUB $1323
PIT - LHR $1677
CVG - LHR $1127
DTW -LHR $1712
STL - FRA $1605

The cheapest 1 stop connection between CLE - LHR on those dates is $1312 via JFK on DL/VS. First of all - so much for cheap flights from anywhere. And it appears that if you want a non-stop you'd save a bundle driving to CVG instead of PIT. And no toll roads to boat.

Don't know about others, but I would never choose to start my international travel by driving 2+ hours to save a few hundred bucks. I could see this being a consideration for a leisure traveler or family, but the hassle and time involved with driving is not worth it for me. Also, you need to factor in the gas, parking, and tolls involved in driving. By my estimates, a 7.5 hour roundtrip drive to CVG would cost about $480 in wear and tear (using IRS mileage reimbursement rates and not including airport parking), plus the value of your time (so if you make $20/hour, that's another $150 cost to factor in). The 4 hour drive to PIT is actually cheaper even with the tolls (about $190, +parking, + cost of 4 hours of time).

luckyone · Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:54 pm

CLEguy wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
Did a quick check of fares on a travel website for the cost of a couch non-stop round trip June 14 returning June 21
CLE - DUB $1323
PIT - LHR $1677
CVG - LHR $1127
DTW -LHR $1712
STL - FRA $1605

The cheapest 1 stop connection between CLE - LHR on those dates is $1312 via JFK on DL/VS. First of all - so much for cheap flights from anywhere. And it appears that if you want a non-stop you'd save a bundle driving to CVG instead of PIT. And no toll roads to boat.

Don't know about others, but I would never choose to start my international travel by driving 2+ hours to save a few hundred bucks. I could see this being a consideration for a leisure traveler or family, but the hassle and time involved with driving is not worth it for me. Also, you need to factor in the gas, parking, and tolls involved in driving. By my estimates, a 7.5 hour roundtrip drive to CVG would cost about $480 in wear and tear (using IRS mileage reimbursement rates and not including airport parking), plus the value of your time (so if you make $20/hour, that's another $150 cost to factor in). The 4 hour drive to PIT is actually cheaper even with the tolls (about $190, +parking, + cost of 4 hours of time).

From CLE, I'd drive to CMH, DTW, or PIT to save 25-30% per ticket. I would not drive to CVG. Anecdotally, PIT always feels like the easiest drive of the three.

masseybrown · Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:23 pm

<teaser> Those who like mofongos may have an easier way to get them this summer.

Trk1 · Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:29 pm

Why drive to another city. CLE to LHR on United for 6/14-21. $1367 multiple flights via IAD and EWR

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net