Welcome to the Cleveland Aviation thread - 2023 edition.

Please continue to post your news and discussions below.

Link to the 2022 edition:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468477

Happy New Year everyone!

Here are my wishes for Cleveland Hopkins International Airport (CLE) for 2023 (in no particular order):

*Success of the transatlantic flights on Aer Lingus (ensuring they run year-round and possibly demonstrating the need for additional or better service to a larger European hub-LHR/FRA/AMS/CDG/etc.)
*Continued forward movement on CLE's master plan, including more concrete plans and progress on funding for a fundamental terminal rebuild/expansion.
*The appointment of a quality Director of Port Control to replace Robert Kennedy and increased interest in aviation matters by the Bibb administration.
*CLE exceeds 10 million passengers again.
*The addition of another airline at CLE (Sun Country-as was announced pre-COVID, Avelo, Breeze, Porter, WestJet) or a meaningful expansion by an existing carrier, perhaps a merged jetBlue/Spirit?
*No more breaches of the airport security fence!

Any others to add?

Looks like parking prices are going up again for the second time in less than a year:

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2022 ... again.html

Prices will go up at all five lots:

Smart Parking Garage will climb from $20 to $22 per day.
Blue and Red lots will go from $19 to $20 per day.
Orange lot will rise from $16 to $17 per day.
Brown lot will increase from $13 to $14 per day.

CLEguy wrote:

Happy New Year everyone!

Here are my wishes for Cleveland Hopkins International Airport (CLE) for 2023 (in no particular order):

*Success of the transatlantic flights on Aer Lingus (ensuring they run year-round and possibly demonstrating the need for additional or better service to a larger European hub-LHR/FRA/AMS/CDG/etc.)
*Continued forward movement on CLE's master plan, including more concrete plans and progress on funding for a fundamental terminal rebuild/expansion.
*The appointment of a quality Director of Port Control to replace Robert Kennedy and increased interest in aviation matters by the Bibb administration.
*CLE exceeds 10 million passengers again.
*The addition of another airline at CLE (Sun Country-as was announced pre-COVID, Avelo, Breeze, Porter, WestJet) or a meaningful expansion by an existing carrier, perhaps a merged jetBlue/Spirit?
*No more breaches of the airport security fence!

Any others to add?

Happy New Year!

Expanding the list for the city as a whole:

*The nonsense around closing BKL dies down as the consultant hired publicly "finds" that the airport should remain open. (The consultant likely already has been told what the finding should be.)

Happy New Year!

My hopes for CLE this year:
-DL resumes SLC
-Some new summer routes from F9. Heard talk we may be getting a crew base.
-United resumes PHX and/or LAS. LAS is getting a 737 crew base, so a sensible connection to CLE.
-Continued network restoration by Spirit and Southwest. NK resumes DFW, MSY. SW resumes MKE, frequency increases on existing routes.

Happy New Year all!!! In my opinion, the above wish lists are very reasonable and realistic hopes going forward. It won't happen, but I'd like to see AC charging the kind of fares to YYZ that NYC enjoys with ample capacity... same for our neighbors

joeman wrote:

Happy New Year all!!! In my opinion, the above wish lists are very reasonable and realistic hopes going forward. It won't happen, but I'd like to see AC charging the kind of fares to YYZ that NYC enjoys with ample capacity... same for our neighbors

Speaking of AC, I'd like to see YUL returned at least 2x daily.

Routes I'd like to see in 2023:

for CLE: SAN, MCI, YUL, SJU, MEX, AMS, more LAX, SFO
for BKL or CLE: CVG, HPN, MKE

greenair727 wrote:

Routes I'd like to see in 2023:

for CLE: SAN, MCI, YUL, SJU, MEX, AMS, more LAX, SFO
for BKL or CLE: CVG, HPN, MKE

Liking the notion of BKL, greater usage, and reducing any operating deficit as long as it isn't addition by subtraction from CLE. I doubt it's going away for a generation or more if ever.

I wonder how long Wow Bao and Shake Shack will remain as closed storefronts. And did that taqueria place ever open? How many closed restaurants are there at CLE right now? I would have thought at least some of them would have reopened since traffic has recovered somewhat.

One time a year or so ago changing in charlotte the food lines were unbelievable, and so many places were closed. a pilot waiting in line with me shared his take. All restaurants are leased by the same management company. With labor harder to come by and pricier, what incentive does the operator have to open everything— they’ll still get all the business anyway. Seems like a plausible explanation and why cle concessionaires have been closed for so long. Our crowds aren’t exactly Charlotte.

On another note, I was looking at PITs flight board yesterday. They have AUS, RDU year round, SRQ daily, HOU, DAL for instance. It made me realize, though CLE is the largest airport by pax count amongst PIT IND CMH CVG (neck and neck with Indy) I would surmise we have fewest destinations. Odd.

ncflyer wrote:

One time a year or so ago changing in charlotte the food lines were unbelievable, and so many places were closed. a pilot waiting in line with me shared his take. All restaurants are leased by the same management company. With labor harder to come by and pricier, what incentive does the operator have to open everything— they’ll still get all the business anyway. Seems like a plausible explanation and why cle concessionaires have been closed for so long. Our crowds aren’t exactly Charlotte.

On another note, I was looking at PITs flight board yesterday. They have AUS, RDU year round, SRQ daily, HOU, DAL for instance. It made me realize, though CLE is the largest airport by pax count amongst PIT IND CMH CVG (neck and neck with Indy) I would surmise we have fewest destinations. Odd.

IND, CVG, and partly PIT have inflated destination counts because of G4 (e.g. SFB and MCO counted as different destinations).

Even ignoring the G4 point cleveland is #4!

ncflyer wrote:

Even ignoring the G4 point cleveland is #4!

I don't see a big difference between the networks, and each one has its own holes

CVG only just got SFO service back, and it's on Breeze.
CMH/PIT only have service to LAX on NK
IND doesn't have any service to Europe
CLE doesn't have any service to AUS
e.t.c, e.t.c.

This news isn't new--from July--but I just learned about it and haven't seen it mentioned here and thought it was interesting:

Metro Life Flight, the helicopter system of MetroHealth, will open a 24/7 base at Wayne County Airport beginning 5JUL (2022).

"...This 24/7 service will help reduce travel time when transporting patients from Wayne County and surrounding areas -- such as Wooster, Orrville, Ashland, Canton and many other locations -- to the appropriate health care facility....Metro Life Flight currently transports nearly 4,000 patients a year, or more than 10 patients a day, with emergency medical services 24/7/365 in Northeast Ohio...."

https://news.metrohealth.org/metro-life ... ne-county/

greenair727 wrote:

This news isn't new--from July--but I just learned about it and haven't seen it mentioned here and thought it was interesting:

Metro Life Flight, the helicopter system of MetroHealth, will open a 24/7 base at Wayne County Airport beginning 5JUL (2022).

"...This 24/7 service will help reduce travel time when transporting patients from Wayne County and surrounding areas -- such as Wooster, Orrville, Ashland, Canton and many other locations -- to the appropriate health care facility....Metro Life Flight currently transports nearly 4,000 patients a year, or more than 10 patients a day, with emergency medical services 24/7/365 in Northeast Ohio...."

https://news.metrohealth.org/metro-life ... ne-county/

They have their own small building on the ramp there, and the flight nurse that I spoke to drives down from Lakewood for her shift. https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/10738407

^That's a long haul from Lakewood each day. Just curious, where are their other bases? Metro itself? Burke? I know BKL is the ops base for Cleveland Clinic's jet fleet.

greenair727 wrote:

^That's a long haul from Lakewood each day. Just curious, where are their other bases? Metro itself? Burke? I know BKL is the ops base for Cleveland Clinic's jet fleet.

I believe one is based at KLPR as I usually see one whenever I'm there.

chrisjake wrote:

greenair727 wrote:

^That's a long haul from Lakewood each day. Just curious, where are their other bases? Metro itself? Burke? I know BKL is the ops base for Cleveland Clinic's jet fleet.

I believe one is based at KLPR as I usually see one whenever I'm there.

Thanks. I just did some digging. Looks like they have two bases--Wayne County--and as you mentioned KPR. They no longer fly out of Metro itself. And they also used to have, but no longer, a base at Portage County Airport--which was previously at Tri-C East.

https://www.cleveland.com/medical/2009/ ... ve_to.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Life_Flight

ncflyer wrote:

Even ignoring the G4 point cleveland is #4!

Since providing links to websites with comparative data, pointing out positive CLE news and an opinion on where CAK lies in the mix apparently breaks forum rules since such comments are now deleted I'll make another wish list like those above and in other threads but with my own concentration mainly on returns for now:

AC YYZ with the kind of airfares all NYC airports enjoy
SY MPS like they announced pre-COVID
G4 a return and to all the places we had
NK a return to MSY/DFW/CUN/BOS
AA: a return to PHX
DL: a return to RDU//BDL/SLC
UA: a return to LAS/PHX
SW a return to MKE/DAL as well as PHX/LAS beyond weekend only if/when operated
B6 a return to FLL/RSW
F9 a return to SEA/PDX/SAN

I'll spare wishing the return of additional destinations operated by the above in the past for now as well as dreaming additional TATL already and Asia speak

With NK and UA offering only one LAX flight each, both at *very* early morning hours, my 2023 wish is for another flight later in the day. CLE has always had an afternoon departure. Who might do it? AA? B6? Logically, yes, but practically, no. AA has said they favor CVG for midwestern expansion, and B6 is paralyzed by their merger attempt at least for 2023 or for longer if they have to pay a breakup fee. DL maybe, but probably not; they're already trimming a bit at DTW. F9 decided it wasn't worth it. AS has already committed to a second CLE-SEA; that's probably it for this year from them. Avelo? Breeze?

I'm afraid the CLE-LAX route illustrates what CLE will get in 2023: exactly what it got in 2022; namely, the same routes and frequencies but with bigger planes. One exception: Aer Lingus, which should have good loads (based on how well the Icelanders did) and good yields (since they aren't giving away the product as the Icelanders did).

Maybe I'm wrong; I certainly have been before.

masseybrown wrote:

With NK and UA offering only one LAX flight each, both at *very* early morning hours, my 2023 wish is for another flight later in the day. CLE has always had an afternoon departure. Who might do it? AA? B6? Logically, yes, but practically, no. AA has said they favor CVG for midwestern expansion, and B6 is paralyzed by their merger attempt at least for 2023 or for longer if they have to pay a breakup fee. DL maybe, but probably not; they're already trimming a bit at DTW. F9 decided it wasn't worth it. AS has already committed to a second CLE-SEA; that's probably it for this year from them. Avelo? Breeze?

I'm afraid the CLE-LAX route illustrates what CLE will get in 2023: exactly what it got in 2022; namely, the same routes and frequencies but with bigger planes. One exception: Aer Lingus, which should have good loads (based on how well the Icelanders did) and good yields (since they aren't giving away the product as the Icelanders did).

Maybe I'm wrong; I certainly have been before.

I think if we had a 3rd LAX flight, it would be a second UA flight. After all, pre-covid UA operated 3X LAX if I recall correctly.

masseybrown wrote:

With NK and UA offering only one LAX flight each, both at *very* early morning hours, my 2023 wish is for another flight later in the day. CLE has always had an afternoon departure. Who might do it? AA? B6? Logically, yes, but practically, no. AA has said they favor CVG for midwestern expansion, and B6 is paralyzed by their merger attempt at least for 2023 or for longer if they have to pay a breakup fee. DL maybe, but probably not; they're already trimming a bit at DTW. F9 decided it wasn't worth it. AS has already committed to a second CLE-SEA; that's probably it for this year from them. Avelo? Breeze?

Here is the current breakdown of LAX to Midwest nonstop service on AA/DL/UA:
AA - 7x ORD, 1x IND, 1x OMA, 1x STL (10 flights/day)
DL - 6x MSP, 5x DTW, 1x CVG (currently operating on Su/M/W/Th/F), 1x IND (currently operating on Su/W/Th/F), 1x MCI (14 flights/day)
UA - 5x ORD, 1x CLE (6 flights/day)

DL adding CLE-LAX nonstop service might be a possibility with DL currently having more nonstop flights to LAX from the Midwest than AA or UA do.

AA adding CLE-LAX nonstop service is a possibility with AA having a bigger presence at LAX than UA does. AA also currently has more nonstop flights to LAX from the Midwest than UA does.

In Q2 2022, AA was also carrying more of the connecting traffic than UA, DL, or WN out of CLE to some of the non-AA hub markets that don't currently have any nonstop service out of CLE such as ABQ, AUS, ELP, XNA, FAT, GSP, BDL, MEM, ORF, OKC, RIC, TUS, TUL, and ICT.

BUR is the only airport in Greater Los Angeles that currently has XP service, and XP doesn't currently serve any airport in Northeast Ohio.

F9 no longer serves LAX, and BUR/ONT/SNA are the only airports in Greater Los Angeles that still have F9 service.

Even though CLE isn't currently served by MX, MX adding CAK-LAX nonstop service might be a possibility.

I agree that AS is unlikely to add CLE-LAX nonstop service with AS no longer serving LAX nonstop from any Midwestern cities. AS previously served ORD nonstop from LAX, but AS inherited ORD-LAX nonstop service through the AS-VX merger.

We are fortunate to have what we do to LAX compared to PIT CMH CVG. I would say odds are greater of losing NK if the merger goes through than gaining a third flight on any airline. UA would seem most logical but at the moment we know LAS and PHX aren’t coming back this spring and right now there are only three UA flights to DEN bookable this summer compared to four last summer. UA finding other uses for its planes…

ncflyer wrote:

We are fortunate to have what we do to LAX compared to PIT CMH CVG. I would say odds are greater of losing NK if the merger goes through than gaining a third flight on any airline. UA would seem most logical but at the moment we know LAS and PHX aren’t coming back this spring and right now there are only three UA flights to DEN bookable this summer compared to four last summer. UA finding other uses for its planes…

Why would you think more CLE-LAX capacity is unlikely or that are "fortunate to have what we do"? Its one of the largest O&D markets from Cleveland. Don't have exact numbers readily--but pre-covid it was around 1,000 pax/day. I've met people pre-covid who flew to CLE from LA but had to connect, because all the seats on the non-stops were sold out on the days they were traveling.

Outside of a few high growth airports like RDU BNA AUS not seeing much growth of non hub flying anywhere. I hope I’m wrong and that changes in 2023.

Spirit has updated its March schedule:

CLE-MCO: 3.0
CLE-FLL: 3.0
CLE-ATL: 2.0
CLE-TPA: 1.0
CLE-RSW: 1.0
CLE-LAS: 1.0
CLE-LAX: 1.0
CLE-MIA: 1.0

13 daily

United has updated May:

CLE-EWR: 7.0 (1x B38M, 1x B738, 2x B737, 3x E175)
CLE-ORD: 6.0 (2x B739, 3x B738, 1x B737)
CLE-IAD: 4.0 (2x B738, 2x B737)
CLE-IAH: 3.0 (1x B738, 1x B737, 1x E175)
CLE-DEN: 3.0 (2x B739, 1x B738)
CLE-SFO: 2.0 (2x B39M)
CLE-MCO: 1.0 (1x B39M)
CLE-LAX: 1.0 (1x B39M)
CLE-FLL: 1.0 (1x B738)
CLE-RSW: 1.0 (1x B738)
CLE-CUN: 0.1 (B738)

29.1 daily

avtcle wrote:

United has updated May:

CLE-EWR: 7.0 (1x B38M, 1x B738, 2x B737, 3x E175)
CLE-ORD: 6.0 (2x B739, 3x B738, 1x B737)
CLE-IAD: 4.0 (2x B738, 2x B737)
CLE-IAH: 3.0 (1x B738, 1x B737, 1x E175)
CLE-DEN: 3.0 (2x B739, 1x B738)
CLE-SFO: 2.0 (2x B39M)
CLE-MCO: 1.0 (1x B39M)
CLE-LAX: 1.0 (1x B39M)
CLE-FLL: 1.0 (1x B738)
CLE-RSW: 1.0 (1x B738)
CLE-CUN: 0.1 (B738)

29.1 daily

Thanks. So in terms of frequencies, comparing to Jan 2023, looks like

ORD - 1 more
MCO - down to 1.0 from 1.6
SFO - 1 more

Great to see the SFO at 2x/daily. Surprised LAX remained at 1x.

avtcle wrote:

Spirit has updated its March schedule:

CLE-MCO: 3.0
CLE-FLL: 3.0
CLE-ATL: 2.0
CLE-TPA: 1.0
CLE-RSW: 1.0
CLE-LAS: 1.0
CLE-LAX: 1.0
CLE-MIA: 1.0

13 daily

Thanks. How does this compare to what NK operates now?

You can scratch that^

Looks like they were making changes overnight. More has changed. +/- reflects how March compares to current.

CLE-MCO: 2.0 +1
CLE-FLL: 2.0 +1
CLE-ATL: 2.0
CLE-RSW: 1.0 +0.4
CLE-LAS: 1.0
CLE-LAX: 1.0
CLE-MIA: 1.0
CLE-TPA: 0.4 -0.6

10.4 daily

From cleveland.com on our air service to PHX:

https://www.cleveland.com/travel/2023/0 ... izona.html

Tangentially related to air travel, particularly if a hot real estate market is supported by greater demand from population growth:

According to real estate research firm and website, Zillow, Cleveland will be the 2nd hottest US real estate market in 2023. The top five are as follows:

1. Charlotte
2. Cleveland
3. Pittsburgh
4. Dallas
5. Nashville

https://www.zillow.com/research/2023-ho ... rket-31982

joeman wrote:

From cleveland.com on our air service to PHX:

https://www.cleveland.com/travel/2023/0 ... izona.html

A lot of people on this forum said we were better off without the UA hub than with the hub, because it drove average prices down. Personally, I'd rather have kept the hub than have lost it as we would have had far better air service than we do now. PHX is just one example. LGA and DCA are two major others. And of course, the then-possible return of CDG and LHR. Do people still think we are better off without the UA hub than with it? Or was it just rationalization then since we lost it and there was nothing we could do about it?

greenair727 wrote:

joeman wrote:

From cleveland.com on our air service to PHX:

https://www.cleveland.com/travel/2023/0 ... izona.html

A lot of people on this forum said we were better off without the UA hub than with the hub, because it drove average prices down. Personally, I'd rather have kept the hub than have lost it as we would have had far better air service than we do now. PHX is just one example. LGA and DCA are two major others. And of course, the then-possible return of CDG and LHR. Do people still think we are better off without the UA hub than with it? Or was it just rationalization then since we lost it and there was nothing we could do about it?

I think that's a bit impossible to say. Pre-covid CLE was likely better off without the UA hub. Post-covid fares are high and service is more consolidated to many midwestern markets so yea I think in todays environment the UA hub might be close or better. However, even if UA decided to continue to move forward, they 100% cut the hub due to Covid anyways.

Regarding CLE-PHX, AA has reduced similar routes to CMH/PIT/DTW in recent years after decades of legacy US/HP flying. Add that in with their history I don't think they ever serve the route again more than seasonally. Its somewhat surprising UA doesn't try to continue it, UA has a relatively strong outstation at PHX. WN of course is 2x weekly, and I think they are the most likely to bring back daily since the flight does well less than daily, and did well daily (2x in high season) pre-covid. Its been said that WN is waiting on some additional aircraft to bring back some of the longer stage routes they abandoned the last couple of years.

Great debate question-- doesn't it depend on the measurement?

Having a hub is like having CCF in town. I suspect we are paying more for healthcare in Cleveland, as they control so much of the market and let me tell you, you don't build 1MM square foot neurology hospitals/palaces like they are doing by charging people low rates-- in most years they are hardly a "non-profit"-- and they can and do shuffle off their non-paying customers to MetroHealth. But CCF is an economic development tour de force, hard to imagine what CLE would be with a lesser hospital.
So same thing with a hub-- we were all paying a tax to have the hub in the form of higher fares. But look at the cities around the USA that are crushing it in the economic arms race, it's places like ATL and CLT luring companies, Nashville is just crushing it. Ease of travel is an important draw for corporate relo and international attraction and we are just missing that.

Better off when we had a hub for overall economic development-- using that as a metric.

Know what I hope changes at CLE in 2023?

ForyoursafetypleaseholdontothehandrailandFORYOURSAFETYPLEASEHOLDONTOforYoURsaFETYpLEaseHoFORYOURSAFETYPLEAforyoursafetyFORYOURSAFETYPLEASEHOLDON!!!!!

N766UA wrote:

Know what I hope changes at CLE in 2023?

ForyoursafetypleaseholdontothehandrailandFORYOURSAFETYPLEASEHOLDONTOforYoURsaFETYpLEaseHoFORYOURSAFETYPLEAforyoursafetyFORYOURSAFETYPLEASEHOLDON!!!!!

...and attend to children!

ncflyer wrote:

Great debate question-- doesn't it depend on the measurement?

Having a hub is like having CCF in town. I suspect we are paying more for healthcare in Cleveland, as they control so much of the market and let me tell you, you don't build 1MM square foot neurology hospitals/palaces like they are doing by charging people low rates-- in most years they are hardly a "non-profit"-- and they can and do shuffle off their non-paying customers to MetroHealth. But CCF is an economic development tour de force, hard to imagine what CLE would be with a lesser hospital.
So same thing with a hub-- we were all paying a tax to have the hub in the form of higher fares. But look at the cities around the USA that are crushing it in the economic arms race, it's places like ATL and CLT luring companies, Nashville is just crushing it. Ease of travel is an important draw for corporate relo and international attraction and we are just missing that.

Better off when we had a hub for overall economic development-- using that as a metric.

I fully agree with this. And as we've been shrinking as a city relative to the rest of the US and world--- ("The population of the seven-county Cleveland region has actually decreased by 8% since its 1970 peak, when we had surpassed 3 million people, while the U.S. as whole has grown 62%. This means the city's relative importance in the U.S. has been steadily diminishing, and with it, our global influence; our ability to land new jobs and companies in the region; the necessary appeal to attract new talent; the allure for greater investment in new educational, retail and entertainment options....." https://www.crainscleveland.com/opinion ... heast-ohio). ---economic development is the most important metric to use. Hence, the hub gave us the ability to stand out and grow. We were much better with the hub (even if fares were 5-10% higher in general) than no hub and having to connect to far more places and losing out on company site selection lists.

I'm not buying it. High taxes and the impact of being a Union area have a way bigger impact on companies deciding to invest here than having a hub. How do we explain Columbus's growth with no hub and less than CLE service? Why did Honda choose that region - no UAW. IIRC - GM builds a battery plant at Lordstown and it's now the first one represented by the UAW. That sends a msg. There is plenty of vacant land in the Mahoning, Stark, Lake , Medina and Lorain counties to build facilities. Intel didn't pick any of them. Management really doesn't like Unions - even guys like Amazon and Starbucks.

We paid dearly for the hub. Not only in high fares but all the debt the airport took on to try to please CO/UA. So did Pittsburgh which has all the same issues as CLE.

Somebody will add a flight to PHX. With all the tech layoffs happening, there will be IMO alot of aircraft looking for work - like flying retiree's around instead.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

I'm not buying it. High taxes and the impact of being a Union area have a way bigger impact on companies deciding to invest here than having a hub. How do we explain Columbus's growth with no hub and less than CLE service? Why did Honda choose that region - no UAW. IIRC - GM builds a battery plant at Lordstown and it's now the first one represented by the UAW. That sends a msg. There is plenty of vacant land in the Mahoning, Stark, Lake , Medina and Lorain counties to build facilities. Intel didn't pick any of them. Management really doesn't like Unions - even guys like Amazon and Starbucks.

Couple of notes: Intel did pick CLE as it's first choice, Team NEO couldn't find them enough land. Columbus was the second choice. Neither city has enough air service to pick one over another, but even with a hub, CLE didn't have a suitable site. AMZN has picked CLE/NEO for at least 4 x 700+k SF sites (same for CMH), so that's not relevant from a Union perspective. GM has a long enough history in Youngstown to know that's a union town.

As for air service, CLE's best option is to once again court UA. With 90+ planes being added in 2023, and more than that in 2024, they have to fly them somewhere. No other airline has that type of growth planned - not even close. CLE and UA know each other well enough.

I know we all wish that WN would add 5x more flights per week on the PHX leg, but it's probably not going to happen anytime soon as they have said they have approx. 40 planes per day sitting w/o staff.

fun2fly wrote:

Couple of notes: Intel did pick CLE as it's first choice, Team NEO couldn't find them enough land. Columbus was the second choice.

Where is that information coming from?

goCOgo wrote:

fun2fly wrote:

Couple of notes: Intel did pick CLE as it's first choice, Team NEO couldn't find them enough land. Columbus was the second choice.

Where is that information coming from?

Ditto for the question. If this is true, this is a MASSIVE FAILURE of TeamNEO and heads should roll. We definitely have space for Intel.

Sad news: Fatal plane crash (non-commercial) on a JFK to CGF flight yesterday evening. Attempted emergency landing at HPN, but didn't make it in time.

"The Beechcraft Bonanza A36 vanished from radar shortly after taking off from John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York City, according to Elizabeth Isham Cory, spokesperson for the Federal Aviation Administration."

https://www.ctinsider.com/news/newstime ... 729635.php

greenair727 wrote:

goCOgo wrote:

fun2fly wrote:

Couple of notes: Intel did pick CLE as it's first choice, Team NEO couldn't find them enough land. Columbus was the second choice.

Where is that information coming from?

Ditto for the question. If this is true, this is a MASSIVE FAILURE of TeamNEO and heads should roll. We definitely have space for Intel.

New Albany is 38 miles from downtown Columbus. 38 miles from downtown Cleveland is past Eaton Township in Lorain County, Heck the old Ravenna Arsenal is only 50 miles from downtown.

fun2fly wrote:

Couple of notes: Intel did pick CLE as it's first choice, Team NEO couldn't find them enough land. Columbus was the second choice. Neither city has enough air service to pick one over another, but even with a hub, CLE didn't have a suitable site. AMZN has picked CLE/NEO for at least 4 x 700+k SF sites (same for CMH), so that's not relevant from a Union perspective. GM has a long enough history in Youngstown to know that's a union town.

FWIW GM promised the UAW and Ohio's political reps to put something into Lordstown when they shut down the assembly plant. So they really didn't have a choice.
Intel has 120,000 employees worldwide and zero are unionized.

But the main point is the largest single private investment in Ohio history was put in an area without an airline hub. Now it could be argued that airfreight out of Rickenbacker may be cheaper because their landing fees are so much cheaper than CLE (due to the debt taken on when the airport was a hub truly the gift that keeps on giving). But how much will that really save?

F9 2014 diverted to BUF enroute from LA$ when CLE closed for a time due to weather, 1/19. Landed, refueled and the cockpit window cracked. Towed to gate and left passengers stranded to rent cars and drive to final destinations. Everyone working the flight in BUF said they did not know what would be. No plan....no direction.

greenair727 wrote:

Sad news: Fatal plane crash (non-commercial) on a JFK to CGF flight yesterday evening. Attempted emergency landing at HPN, but didn't make it in time.

"The Beechcraft Bonanza A36 vanished from radar shortly after taking off from John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York City, according to Elizabeth Isham Cory, spokesperson for the Federal Aviation Administration."

https://www.ctinsider.com/news/newstime ... 729635.php

Just realized there is already a separate thread on this topic: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1480831

ncflyer wrote:

So same thing with a hub-- we were all paying a tax to have the hub in the form of higher fares. But look at the cities around the USA that are crushing it in the economic arms race, it's places like ATL and CLT luring companies, Nashville is just crushing it. Ease of travel is an important draw for corporate relo and international attraction and we are just missing that.

Better off when we had a hub for overall economic development-- using that as a metric.

Correlation does not equal causation.

AUS was luring companies long before it had the level of air service it has today. Not to mention ATL & CLT have had hubs for decades.

If you truly believe "work from home" practices are here to stay, air service matters even less than it did before.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

I'm not buying it. High taxes and the impact of being a Union area have a way bigger impact on companies deciding to invest here than having a hub. How do we explain Columbus's growth with no hub and less than CLE service? Why did Honda choose that region - no UAW. IIRC - GM builds a battery plant at Lordstown and it's now the first one represented by the UAW. That sends a msg. There is plenty of vacant land in the Mahoning, Stark, Lake , Medina and Lorain counties to build facilities. Intel didn't pick any of them. Management really doesn't like Unions - even guys like Amazon and Starbucks.

Much is always made over "why X company chose Y city" for an investment.

The Honda point is pretty simple, Honda already had a massive presence in the Dayton/Columbus area, why would they build a new plant in the same state 200 miles away?

Regardless of whether it is Intel or Honda, these large announcements happen in every major city in the US yearly/quarterly/monthly, and never change the air service profile of a city/market.(example: Amazon HQ2) It takes a large conglomeration of announcements to really move the needle in terms of air service. (ala AUS).

TL:DR don't overindex on whether X city didn't get Y investment from some tech company.

Midwestindy wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

So same thing with a hub-- we were all paying a tax to have the hub in the form of higher fares. But look at the cities around the USA that are crushing it in the economic arms race, it's places like ATL and CLT luring companies, Nashville is just crushing it. Ease of travel is an important draw for corporate relo and international attraction and we are just missing that.

Better off when we had a hub for overall economic development-- using that as a metric.

Correlation does not equal causation.

AUS was luring companies long before it had the level of air service it has today. Not to mention ATL & CLT have had hubs for decades.

If you truly believe "work from home" practices are here to stay, air service matters even less than it did before.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

I'm not buying it. High taxes and the impact of being a Union area have a way bigger impact on companies deciding to invest here than having a hub. How do we explain Columbus's growth with no hub and less than CLE service? Why did Honda choose that region - no UAW. IIRC - GM builds a battery plant at Lordstown and it's now the first one represented by the UAW. That sends a msg. There is plenty of vacant land in the Mahoning, Stark, Lake , Medina and Lorain counties to build facilities. Intel didn't pick any of them. Management really doesn't like Unions - even guys like Amazon and Starbucks.

Much is always made over "why X company chose Y city" for an investment.

The Honda point is pretty simple, Honda already had a massive presence in the Dayton/Columbus area, why would they build a new plant in the same state 200 miles away?

Regardless of whether it is Intel or Honda, these large announcements happen in every major city in the US yearly/quarterly/monthly, and never change the air service profile of a city/market.(example: Amazon HQ2) It takes a large conglomeration of announcements to really move the needle in terms of air service. (ala AUS).

TL:DR don't overindex on whether X city didn't get Y investment from some tech company.

There are two types of considerations on air service when it comes to site selection: Hub or no hub for the most part. CLE, CVG and CMH don't have that offering so they are all equal on that front. If companies move to Ohio, it's for lower cost labor, universities, tax incentives and no natural disasters amongst other things. Intel moved 20 miles outside of CMH because Wexner came up with a HUGE plot of land + tax incentives + labor/universities. I'm sure his political ties were also handy.

The Cinnabon and Auntie Anne’s by the South security checkpoint have been renovated and are back open. Also, Cleveland’s first Jamba Juice is now open next to them. I believe this is where the former currency exchange location used to be.

Flew UA CLE-LAX this morning and had a wonderful CLE-based crew on a 3-week old MAX 9.