Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
CLEguy wrote:Happy New Year everyone!
Here are my wishes for Cleveland Hopkins International Airport (CLE) for 2023 (in no particular order):
*Success of the transatlantic flights on Aer Lingus (ensuring they run year-round and possibly demonstrating the need for additional or better service to a larger European hub-LHR/FRA/AMS/CDG/etc.)
*Continued forward movement on CLE's master plan, including more concrete plans and progress on funding for a fundamental terminal rebuild/expansion.
*The appointment of a quality Director of Port Control to replace Robert Kennedy and increased interest in aviation matters by the Bibb administration.
*CLE exceeds 10 million passengers again.
*The addition of another airline at CLE (Sun Country-as was announced pre-COVID, Avelo, Breeze, Porter, WestJet) or a meaningful expansion by an existing carrier, perhaps a merged jetBlue/Spirit?
*No more breaches of the airport security fence!
Any others to add?
joeman wrote:Happy New Year all!!! In my opinion, the above wish lists are very reasonable and realistic hopes going forward. It won't happen, but I'd like to see AC charging the kind of fares to YYZ that NYC enjoys with ample capacity... same for our neighbors
greenair727 wrote:Routes I'd like to see in 2023:
for CLE: SAN, MCI, YUL, SJU, MEX, AMS, more LAX, SFO
for BKL or CLE: CVG, HPN, MKE
ncflyer wrote:One time a year or so ago changing in charlotte the food lines were unbelievable, and so many places were closed. a pilot waiting in line with me shared his take. All restaurants are leased by the same management company. With labor harder to come by and pricier, what incentive does the operator have to open everything— they’ll still get all the business anyway. Seems like a plausible explanation and why cle concessionaires have been closed for so long. Our crowds aren’t exactly Charlotte.
On another note, I was looking at PITs flight board yesterday. They have AUS, RDU year round, SRQ daily, HOU, DAL for instance. It made me realize, though CLE is the largest airport by pax count amongst PIT IND CMH CVG (neck and neck with Indy) I would surmise we have fewest destinations. Odd.
ncflyer wrote:Even ignoring the G4 point cleveland is #4!
greenair727 wrote:This news isn't new--from July--but I just learned about it and haven't seen it mentioned here and thought it was interesting:
Metro Life Flight, the helicopter system of MetroHealth, will open a 24/7 base at Wayne County Airport beginning 5JUL (2022).
"...This 24/7 service will help reduce travel time when transporting patients from Wayne County and surrounding areas -- such as Wooster, Orrville, Ashland, Canton and many other locations -- to the appropriate health care facility....Metro Life Flight currently transports nearly 4,000 patients a year, or more than 10 patients a day, with emergency medical services 24/7/365 in Northeast Ohio...."
https://news.metrohealth.org/metro-life ... ne-county/
greenair727 wrote:^That's a long haul from Lakewood each day. Just curious, where are their other bases? Metro itself? Burke? I know BKL is the ops base for Cleveland Clinic's jet fleet.
chrisjake wrote:greenair727 wrote:^That's a long haul from Lakewood each day. Just curious, where are their other bases? Metro itself? Burke? I know BKL is the ops base for Cleveland Clinic's jet fleet.
I believe one is based at KLPR as I usually see one whenever I'm there.
ncflyer wrote:Even ignoring the G4 point cleveland is #4!
masseybrown wrote:With NK and UA offering only one LAX flight each, both at *very* early morning hours, my 2023 wish is for another flight later in the day. CLE has always had an afternoon departure. Who might do it? AA? B6? Logically, yes, but practically, no. AA has said they favor CVG for midwestern expansion, and B6 is paralyzed by their merger attempt at least for 2023 or for longer if they have to pay a breakup fee. DL maybe, but probably not; they're already trimming a bit at DTW. F9 decided it wasn't worth it. AS has already committed to a second CLE-SEA; that's probably it for this year from them. Avelo? Breeze?
I'm afraid the CLE-LAX route illustrates what CLE will get in 2023: exactly what it got in 2022; namely, the same routes and frequencies but with bigger planes. One exception: Aer Lingus, which should have good loads (based on how well the Icelanders did) and good yields (since they aren't giving away the product as the Icelanders did).
Maybe I'm wrong; I certainly have been before.
masseybrown wrote:With NK and UA offering only one LAX flight each, both at *very* early morning hours, my 2023 wish is for another flight later in the day. CLE has always had an afternoon departure. Who might do it? AA? B6? Logically, yes, but practically, no. AA has said they favor CVG for midwestern expansion, and B6 is paralyzed by their merger attempt at least for 2023 or for longer if they have to pay a breakup fee. DL maybe, but probably not; they're already trimming a bit at DTW. F9 decided it wasn't worth it. AS has already committed to a second CLE-SEA; that's probably it for this year from them. Avelo? Breeze?
ncflyer wrote:We are fortunate to have what we do to LAX compared to PIT CMH CVG. I would say odds are greater of losing NK if the merger goes through than gaining a third flight on any airline. UA would seem most logical but at the moment we know LAS and PHX aren’t coming back this spring and right now there are only three UA flights to DEN bookable this summer compared to four last summer. UA finding other uses for its planes…
avtcle wrote:United has updated May:
CLE-EWR: 7.0 (1x B38M, 1x B738, 2x B737, 3x E175)
CLE-ORD: 6.0 (2x B739, 3x B738, 1x B737)
CLE-IAD: 4.0 (2x B738, 2x B737)
CLE-IAH: 3.0 (1x B738, 1x B737, 1x E175)
CLE-DEN: 3.0 (2x B739, 1x B738)
CLE-SFO: 2.0 (2x B39M)
CLE-MCO: 1.0 (1x B39M)
CLE-LAX: 1.0 (1x B39M)
CLE-FLL: 1.0 (1x B738)
CLE-RSW: 1.0 (1x B738)
CLE-CUN: 0.1 (B738)
29.1 daily
avtcle wrote:Spirit has updated its March schedule:
CLE-MCO: 3.0
CLE-FLL: 3.0
CLE-ATL: 2.0
CLE-TPA: 1.0
CLE-RSW: 1.0
CLE-LAS: 1.0
CLE-LAX: 1.0
CLE-MIA: 1.0
13 daily
joeman wrote:
greenair727 wrote:joeman wrote:
A lot of people on this forum said we were better off without the UA hub than with the hub, because it drove average prices down. Personally, I'd rather have kept the hub than have lost it as we would have had far better air service than we do now. PHX is just one example. LGA and DCA are two major others. And of course, the then-possible return of CDG and LHR. Do people still think we are better off without the UA hub than with it? Or was it just rationalization then since we lost it and there was nothing we could do about it?
N766UA wrote:Know what I hope changes at CLE in 2023?
ForyoursafetypleaseholdontothehandrailandFORYOURSAFETYPLEASEHOLDONTOforYoURsaFETYpLEaseHoFORYOURSAFETYPLEAforyoursafetyFORYOURSAFETYPLEASEHOLDON!!!!!
ncflyer wrote:Great debate question-- doesn't it depend on the measurement?
Having a hub is like having CCF in town. I suspect we are paying more for healthcare in Cleveland, as they control so much of the market and let me tell you, you don't build 1MM square foot neurology hospitals/palaces like they are doing by charging people low rates-- in most years they are hardly a "non-profit"-- and they can and do shuffle off their non-paying customers to MetroHealth. But CCF is an economic development tour de force, hard to imagine what CLE would be with a lesser hospital.
So same thing with a hub-- we were all paying a tax to have the hub in the form of higher fares. But look at the cities around the USA that are crushing it in the economic arms race, it's places like ATL and CLT luring companies, Nashville is just crushing it. Ease of travel is an important draw for corporate relo and international attraction and we are just missing that.
Better off when we had a hub for overall economic development-- using that as a metric.
MohawkWeekend wrote:I'm not buying it. High taxes and the impact of being a Union area have a way bigger impact on companies deciding to invest here than having a hub. How do we explain Columbus's growth with no hub and less than CLE service? Why did Honda choose that region - no UAW. IIRC - GM builds a battery plant at Lordstown and it's now the first one represented by the UAW. That sends a msg. There is plenty of vacant land in the Mahoning, Stark, Lake , Medina and Lorain counties to build facilities. Intel didn't pick any of them. Management really doesn't like Unions - even guys like Amazon and Starbucks.
fun2fly wrote:Couple of notes: Intel did pick CLE as it's first choice, Team NEO couldn't find them enough land. Columbus was the second choice.
goCOgo wrote:fun2fly wrote:Couple of notes: Intel did pick CLE as it's first choice, Team NEO couldn't find them enough land. Columbus was the second choice.
Where is that information coming from?
greenair727 wrote:goCOgo wrote:fun2fly wrote:Couple of notes: Intel did pick CLE as it's first choice, Team NEO couldn't find them enough land. Columbus was the second choice.
Where is that information coming from?
Ditto for the question. If this is true, this is a MASSIVE FAILURE of TeamNEO and heads should roll. We definitely have space for Intel.
fun2fly wrote:
Couple of notes: Intel did pick CLE as it's first choice, Team NEO couldn't find them enough land. Columbus was the second choice. Neither city has enough air service to pick one over another, but even with a hub, CLE didn't have a suitable site. AMZN has picked CLE/NEO for at least 4 x 700+k SF sites (same for CMH), so that's not relevant from a Union perspective. GM has a long enough history in Youngstown to know that's a union town.
greenair727 wrote:Sad news: Fatal plane crash (non-commercial) on a JFK to CGF flight yesterday evening. Attempted emergency landing at HPN, but didn't make it in time.
"The Beechcraft Bonanza A36 vanished from radar shortly after taking off from John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York City, according to Elizabeth Isham Cory, spokesperson for the Federal Aviation Administration."
https://www.ctinsider.com/news/newstime ... 729635.php
ncflyer wrote:So same thing with a hub-- we were all paying a tax to have the hub in the form of higher fares. But look at the cities around the USA that are crushing it in the economic arms race, it's places like ATL and CLT luring companies, Nashville is just crushing it. Ease of travel is an important draw for corporate relo and international attraction and we are just missing that.
Better off when we had a hub for overall economic development-- using that as a metric.
MohawkWeekend wrote:I'm not buying it. High taxes and the impact of being a Union area have a way bigger impact on companies deciding to invest here than having a hub. How do we explain Columbus's growth with no hub and less than CLE service? Why did Honda choose that region - no UAW. IIRC - GM builds a battery plant at Lordstown and it's now the first one represented by the UAW. That sends a msg. There is plenty of vacant land in the Mahoning, Stark, Lake , Medina and Lorain counties to build facilities. Intel didn't pick any of them. Management really doesn't like Unions - even guys like Amazon and Starbucks.
Midwestindy wrote:ncflyer wrote:So same thing with a hub-- we were all paying a tax to have the hub in the form of higher fares. But look at the cities around the USA that are crushing it in the economic arms race, it's places like ATL and CLT luring companies, Nashville is just crushing it. Ease of travel is an important draw for corporate relo and international attraction and we are just missing that.
Better off when we had a hub for overall economic development-- using that as a metric.
Correlation does not equal causation.
AUS was luring companies long before it had the level of air service it has today. Not to mention ATL & CLT have had hubs for decades.
If you truly believe "work from home" practices are here to stay, air service matters even less than it did before.MohawkWeekend wrote:I'm not buying it. High taxes and the impact of being a Union area have a way bigger impact on companies deciding to invest here than having a hub. How do we explain Columbus's growth with no hub and less than CLE service? Why did Honda choose that region - no UAW. IIRC - GM builds a battery plant at Lordstown and it's now the first one represented by the UAW. That sends a msg. There is plenty of vacant land in the Mahoning, Stark, Lake , Medina and Lorain counties to build facilities. Intel didn't pick any of them. Management really doesn't like Unions - even guys like Amazon and Starbucks.
Much is always made over "why X company chose Y city" for an investment.
The Honda point is pretty simple, Honda already had a massive presence in the Dayton/Columbus area, why would they build a new plant in the same state 200 miles away?
Regardless of whether it is Intel or Honda, these large announcements happen in every major city in the US yearly/quarterly/monthly, and never change the air service profile of a city/market.(example: Amazon HQ2) It takes a large conglomeration of announcements to really move the needle in terms of air service. (ala AUS).
TL:DR don't overindex on whether X city didn't get Y investment from some tech company.