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Lamp1009
Posts: 738
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:36 pm

Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sat Apr 22, 2023 5:26 am

Legiath wrote:
LAXPolaris wrote:
Legiath wrote:
I don’t see why they would get rid of the fingers on B East. UA mgmt has said they will keep regionals and some 50 seaters in the long term out of DEN to serve small mountain west communities. Keeping the fingers allows more gate space for regionals vs replacing with an extension of the main terminal eastward.

To the rest of your question, pretty sure B West, A West, and C East are extended to the max already. That leaves A East and C West. Frontier is in the process of building out their ground load facility on A East. That leaves only C West which has a bit of room to expand more West but would require the closure of one of the de-ice pads. There’s a new de-ice pad being built north of C West which could allow for the other one to be closed but then there’s the issue that the last C West extension was built more narrow than the rest of the concourse.

The next move for expansion could be the East and West expansions from the main terminal. The master plan shows what that could look like below.

https://ago-item-storage.s3.us-east-1.a ... bab87529fd


Isn’t letting me open the link, but what would that entail? Gates where the parking lots are on each side of the terminal? Or past the Westin building gates on the complete opposite of that?

Scroll down this link and click Denver’s airport layout plan:

https://open-gis-data-dia.hub.arcgis.com/


From the looks of it Pier D would make far far more sense than whatever this madness is. 12 runways…7 concourses that are 2-3* the size of ATLs…this is absurd.
 
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LAXPolaris
Posts: 1467
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sat Apr 22, 2023 6:15 am

Lamp1009 wrote:
Legiath wrote:
LAXPolaris wrote:

Isn’t letting me open the link, but what would that entail? Gates where the parking lots are on each side of the terminal? Or past the Westin building gates on the complete opposite of that?

Scroll down this link and click Denver’s airport layout plan:

https://open-gis-data-dia.hub.arcgis.com/


From the looks of it Pier D would make far far more sense than whatever this madness is. 12 runways…7 concourses that are 2-3* the size of ATLs…this is absurd.


I don't think DEN even needs more gates anytime soon does it? Think UA will be happy with their 90 gates for at least a while before they would want more. Not sure if anything other airline wants more gates but assumed they could've requested it in the recent expansion project.
 
Lamp1009
Posts: 738
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sat Apr 22, 2023 6:48 am

LAXPolaris wrote:
Lamp1009 wrote:
Legiath wrote:
Scroll down this link and click Denver’s airport layout plan:

https://open-gis-data-dia.hub.arcgis.com/


From the looks of it Pier D would make far far more sense than whatever this madness is. 12 runways…7 concourses that are 2-3* the size of ATLs…this is absurd.


I don't think DEN even needs more gates anytime soon does it? Think UA will be happy with their 90 gates for at least a while before they would want more. Not sure if anything other airline wants more gates but assumed they could've requested it in the recent expansion project.

It's not necessarily a matter of it being fine for a while, these major projects take decades to plan, fund, construct, and commission, so if UA is thinking about growth 15 years down the road and sees Denver as being potentially constrained, they will be telling the airport authority.

It's also not just UA, Frontier or Southwest might want more space at some point, but UA is most likely the one tenant who may want more space earlier.
 
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intotheair
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:43 am

Lamp1009 wrote:
From the looks of it Pier D would make far far more sense than whatever this madness is. 12 runways…7 concourses that are 2-3* the size of ATLs…this is absurd.


I think it's actually quite the testament of the foresight that went into DEN's planning. None of DEN's peers have the ability to build that much runway or gate capacity.

We're still probably a decade out from seeing DEN build a new concourse or terminal expansion, but the airport has several different options, and that's quite an advantage.

As has been pointed out on here many times, the original plan for a Concourse D has some drawbacks because the existing train system was originally designed for fewer passengers and a smaller portion of O&D passengers than today. If they built D, then they would need a serious capacity increase to the train, and there's no clear way of doing that easily or cheaply.

Building the south terminal expansion with east and west concourses might make more sense. The south terminal expansion was part of the original plan, and they're more than likely going to need an expanded terminal at some point anyway. Putting the new concourses connected to it might make it a little easier to manage the passenger flows, though it would require reconfiguring the roadways, removing the long term parking, and building over the RTD station. On the other hand, having three concourses adjacent to the main terminal complex (A, East, West) might serve the O&D-heavy airport a little better than having only one (A).
 
DEN1895
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:21 am

Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sat Apr 22, 2023 7:05 pm

LAXPolaris wrote:
Lamp1009 wrote:
Legiath wrote:
Scroll down this link and click Denver’s airport layout plan:

https://open-gis-data-dia.hub.arcgis.com/


From the looks of it Pier D would make far far more sense than whatever this madness is. 12 runways…7 concourses that are 2-3* the size of ATLs…this is absurd.


I don't think DEN even needs more gates anytime soon does it? Think UA will be happy with their 90 gates for at least a while before they would want more. Not sure if anything other airline wants more gates but assumed they could've requested it in the recent expansion project.


Even with all the recent expansion the airport is still short on gate space. The biggest obstacle now is there is not enough common use gate space which restricts new airlines from serving DEN. One thing to keep in mind also is that Frontier will soon need to use common use international gates for their arrivals once they move to their new gates next year. This will put even more stress on those gates, if you add in Turkish or another non-UA widebody into the afternoon international flights schedule you are probably looking at gate hold again for inbound aircraft. Southwest continues to expand internationally as well, adding further complications. The last I heard Delta and Alaska also wanted additional space, the next expansion would be C West which the airport is already starting the preliminary planning for and may happen in the next 5 years.
 
DEN1895
Posts: 575
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sat Apr 22, 2023 7:13 pm

Lamp1009 wrote:
Legiath wrote:
LAXPolaris wrote:

Isn’t letting me open the link, but what would that entail? Gates where the parking lots are on each side of the terminal? Or past the Westin building gates on the complete opposite of that?

Scroll down this link and click Denver’s airport layout plan:

https://open-gis-data-dia.hub.arcgis.com/


From the looks of it Pier D would make far far more sense than whatever this madness is. 12 runways…7 concourses that are 2-3* the size of ATLs…this is absurd.


The biggest issue as mentioned is the train, with all three concourses built to the max, and the train lengthened to 5 or 6 cars it would max out the system at the 100 million passengers. Building something similar to concourse T as ATL would allow all of the primarily O&D airlines there, reducing stress on the train. If AA, DL, AS, and similar were moved to a concourse connected directly connected to the Terminal it would greatly reduce the pressure off the train. After C is expanded to the west, I could see some sort of concourse directly connect to the Terminal as the next expansion.
 
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ADent
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sat Apr 22, 2023 7:37 pm

The train is mainly the pain for Concourse D. The train was originally shown to loop back on the old plans - but turns out that wasn’t built in and now very expensive to do it.


So the latest plan is to replace the economy parking lots with terminals.

There are not enough gates today at DEN. Basically all the new gates went to UA and WN. So little room for new carriers and others shuffle planes in the morning to cover RONs. I assume the incumbents are not upset with the situation.
 
manny
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sat Apr 22, 2023 7:41 pm

Always wondered, is there enough space between A and B terminals to put another terminal ?
 
303dk
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:14 pm

manny wrote:
Always wondered, is there enough space between A and B terminals to put another terminal ?

No. The efficiency of DEN is that both concourses can push while two way traffic is also moving.

Widebody gates and international gates seem to already be short even with A west opening.

Is DL going to have a widebody gate once they move? They’ve been sending regular WB to Denver since at least 2005
 
SEA
Posts: 346
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:21 pm

Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:38 pm

303dk wrote:
manny wrote:
Always wondered, is there enough space between A and B terminals to put another terminal ?

No. The efficiency of DEN is that both concourses can push while two way traffic is also moving.

Widebody gates and international gates seem to already be short even with A west opening.

Is DL going to have a widebody gate once they move? They’ve been sending regular WB to Denver since at least 2005


What WB is DL regularly sending to DEN??
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 10671
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:49 pm

DL sends 763, 764 occasionally from ATL. It’s not regular per say as in every day
Year round, but it happens a bit around holiday travel periods. Like Christmas break on a flight or two from ATL
 
DEN1895
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:21 am

Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sat Apr 22, 2023 9:20 pm

303dk wrote:
manny wrote:
Always wondered, is there enough space between A and B terminals to put another terminal ?

No. The efficiency of DEN is that both concourses can push while two way traffic is also moving.

Widebody gates and international gates seem to already be short even with A west opening.

Is DL going to have a widebody gate once they move? They’ve been sending regular WB to Denver since at least 2005


Yes, either A49 or A51 is striped for a WB similar to how A31 was at the west gates.

SEA wrote:
303dk wrote:
manny wrote:
Always wondered, is there enough space between A and B terminals to put another terminal ?

No. The efficiency of DEN is that both concourses can push while two way traffic is also moving.

Widebody gates and international gates seem to already be short even with A west opening.

Is DL going to have a widebody gate once they move? They’ve been sending regular WB to Denver since at least 2005


What WB is DL regularly sending to DEN??


Funnily enough the current google maps has 2 DL 764 parked at DEN from last year. DL has been without a widebody gate for a while due to construction but specifically requested one when the move to their new gates on the east side.

Image
 
mikejepp
Posts: 603
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sat Apr 22, 2023 9:45 pm

303dk wrote:
manny wrote:
Always wondered, is there enough space between A and B terminals to put another terminal ?

No. The efficiency of DEN is that both concourses can push while two way traffic is also moving.

Widebody gates and international gates seem to already be short even with A west opening.

Is DL going to have a widebody gate once they move? They’ve been sending regular WB to Denver since at least 2005


Even before 2005 they were sending multiple daily L1011s and 767s
 
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LAXPolaris
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sat Apr 22, 2023 10:55 pm

DEN1895 wrote:
303dk wrote:
manny wrote:
Always wondered, is there enough space between A and B terminals to put another terminal ?

No. The efficiency of DEN is that both concourses can push while two way traffic is also moving.

Widebody gates and international gates seem to already be short even with A west opening.

Is DL going to have a widebody gate once they move? They’ve been sending regular WB to Denver since at least 2005


Yes, either A49 or A51 is striped for a WB similar to how A31 was at the west gates.

SEA wrote:
303dk wrote:
No. The efficiency of DEN is that both concourses can push while two way traffic is also moving.

Widebody gates and international gates seem to already be short even with A west opening.

Is DL going to have a widebody gate once they move? They’ve been sending regular WB to Denver since at least 2005


What WB is DL regularly sending to DEN??


Funnily enough the current google maps has 2 DL 764 parked at DEN from last year. DL has been without a widebody gate for a while due to construction but specifically requested one when the move to their new gates on the east side.

Image


Wait - the gates DL is currently using by the new UA A gates aren’t there permanent gates, they’re moving to the other end?
 
Legiath
Posts: 103
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sat Apr 22, 2023 11:05 pm

LAXPolaris wrote:
DEN1895 wrote:
303dk wrote:
No. The efficiency of DEN is that both concourses can push while two way traffic is also moving.

Widebody gates and international gates seem to already be short even with A west opening.

Is DL going to have a widebody gate once they move? They’ve been sending regular WB to Denver since at least 2005


Yes, either A49 or A51 is striped for a WB similar to how A31 was at the west gates.

SEA wrote:

What WB is DL regularly sending to DEN??


Funnily enough the current google maps has 2 DL 764 parked at DEN from last year. DL has been without a widebody gate for a while due to construction but specifically requested one when the move to their new gates on the east side.

Image


Wait - the gates DL is currently using by the new UA A gates aren’t there permanent gates, they’re moving to the other end?

Yes half of DL has already moved to A East north. Full move expected soon. See the end of this presentation for all the moves and timing:

https://denver.legistar.com/View.ashx?M ... AEB601C83E
 
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LAXPolaris
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sat Apr 22, 2023 11:50 pm

Legiath wrote:
Yes half of DL has already moved to A East north. Full move expected soon. See the end of this presentation for all the moves and timing:

https://denver.legistar.com/View.ashx?M ... AEB601C83E


Ah I didn't realize that - thanks for sharing this deck, tons of super interesting things on here!

So United is getting almost all of A West (minus some of the common use international), including some of the old gates once airlines move?
 
Legiath
Posts: 103
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 12:11 am

LAXPolaris wrote:
Legiath wrote:
Yes half of DL has already moved to A East north. Full move expected soon. See the end of this presentation for all the moves and timing:

https://denver.legistar.com/View.ashx?M ... AEB601C83E


Ah I didn't realize that - thanks for sharing this deck, tons of super interesting things on here!

So United is getting almost all of A West (minus some of the common use international), including some of the old gates once airlines move?

Yes plus gate A40 on the east side which is international capable. UA will have 90 gates at DEN once all airline moves are complete including DL and F9.
 
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LAXPolaris
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 12:53 am

Legiath wrote:
LAXPolaris wrote:
Legiath wrote:
Yes half of DL has already moved to A East north. Full move expected soon. See the end of this presentation for all the moves and timing:

https://denver.legistar.com/View.ashx?M ... AEB601C83E


Ah I didn't realize that - thanks for sharing this deck, tons of super interesting things on here!

So United is getting almost all of A West (minus some of the common use international), including some of the old gates once airlines move?

Yes plus gate A40 on the east side which is international capable. UA will have 90 gates at DEN once all airline moves are complete including DL and F9.


Oh I didn’t realize A40 was international capable, I thought only the other side had international gates. How many gates on that side of A closer to the terminal can handle international?
 
Legiath
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 12:57 am

LAXPolaris wrote:
Legiath wrote:
LAXPolaris wrote:

Ah I didn't realize that - thanks for sharing this deck, tons of super interesting things on here!

So United is getting almost all of A West (minus some of the common use international), including some of the old gates once airlines move?

Yes plus gate A40 on the east side which is international capable. UA will have 90 gates at DEN once all airline moves are complete including DL and F9.


Oh I didn’t realize A40 was international capable, I thought only the other side had international gates. How many gates on that side of A closer to the terminal can handle international?

4 gates on the south side of A. A40, 42, 44 and 46.
 
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LAXPolaris
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 1:06 am

Legiath wrote:
LAXPolaris wrote:
Oh I didn’t realize A40 was international capable, I thought only the other side had international gates. How many gates on that side of A closer to the terminal can handle international?

4 gates on the south side of A. A40, 42, 44 and 46.


Wow, I’m learning so much about DEN from you, thank you!

Based on the deck it looks like Alaska and Spirit are getting those gates which seems odd as they have no international flights into DEN.
 
Legiath
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:59 am

Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 1:14 am

LAXPolaris wrote:
Legiath wrote:
LAXPolaris wrote:
Oh I didn’t realize A40 was international capable, I thought only the other side had international gates. How many gates on that side of A closer to the terminal can handle international?

4 gates on the south side of A. A40, 42, 44 and 46.


Wow, I’m learning so much about DEN from you, thank you!

Based on the deck it looks like Alaska and Spirit are getting those gates which seems odd as they have no international flights into DEN.

I agree it seemed odd. Those gates would be better utilized as common use NB international gates. Spirit and Alaska aren’t scheduled to move until early 2024 so there’s still time to modify plans, especially if C West expansion were to be announced soon.
 
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ramprat74
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 2:17 am

SEA wrote:
303dk wrote:
manny wrote:
Always wondered, is there enough space between A and B terminals to put another terminal ?

No. The efficiency of DEN is that both concourses can push while two way traffic is also moving.

Widebody gates and international gates seem to already be short even with A west opening.

Is DL going to have a widebody gate once they move? They’ve been sending regular WB to Denver since at least 2005


What WB is DL regularly sending to DEN??


Delta has been using widebody aircraft in DEN since Stapleton. I use to work on the E concourse and use to see Delta 767-300 and L-1011 aircraft all the time.
 
DEN1895
Posts: 575
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:24 am

Legiath wrote:
LAXPolaris wrote:
Legiath wrote:
4 gates on the south side of A. A40, 42, 44 and 46.


Wow, I’m learning so much about DEN from you, thank you!

Based on the deck it looks like Alaska and Spirit are getting those gates which seems odd as they have no international flights into DEN.

I agree it seemed odd. Those gates would be better utilized as common use NB international gates. Spirit and Alaska aren’t scheduled to move until early 2024 so there’s still time to modify plans, especially if C West expansion were to be announced soon.


Simply put, mistakes were made when giving UA and WN too many gates, the A40-A46 south side gates could have easily stayed common use to allow for other airlines to grow at DEN and relieve pressure off the North side gates. The one thing that may change is that Spirit may only operate using one gate as they have reduced their flights post pandemic. They have been operating with only one gate for probably 18 months, but that is just a theory.
 
SEA
Posts: 346
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:21 pm

Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:44 am

ramprat74 wrote:
SEA wrote:
303dk wrote:
No. The efficiency of DEN is that both concourses can push while two way traffic is also moving.

Widebody gates and international gates seem to already be short even with A west opening.

Is DL going to have a widebody gate once they move? They’ve been sending regular WB to Denver since at least 2005


What WB is DL regularly sending to DEN??


Delta has been using widebody aircraft in DEN since Stapleton. I use to work on the E concourse and use to see Delta 767-300 and L-1011 aircraft all the time.


I know, but these days I rarely see any widebody from DL outside of the holiday season. That’s why I questioned the poster who said “regular.” Right now the biggest bird that DL sends with what I would say is regularity is the A321. Most DL widebodies lately seem to be sports charters.
 
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LAXPolaris
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:07 am

DEN1895 wrote:
Simply put, mistakes were made when giving UA and WN too many gates, the A40-A46 south side gates could have easily stayed common use to allow for other airlines to grow at DEN and relieve pressure off the North side gates. The one thing that may change is that Spirit may only operate using one gate as they have reduced their flights post pandemic. They have been operating with only one gate for probably 18 months, but that is just a theory.


I know UA is going to end at 90 gates post expansion, what is WN's number? And are DL and AA still 6 each?
 
DEN1895
Posts: 575
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:34 am

LAXPolaris wrote:
DEN1895 wrote:
Simply put, mistakes were made when giving UA and WN too many gates, the A40-A46 south side gates could have easily stayed common use to allow for other airlines to grow at DEN and relieve pressure off the North side gates. The one thing that may change is that Spirit may only operate using one gate as they have reduced their flights post pandemic. They have been operating with only one gate for probably 18 months, but that is just a theory.


I know UA is going to end at 90 gates post expansion, what is WN's number? And are DL and AA still 6 each?

Here is the full list:

UA - 90
WN - 40
F9 - 14
DL - 6
AA - 5
NK - 2
AS - 1
Common Use - 8

There are 4 shared gates for Denver Air and Southern as well, but that is pretty much the breakdown.
 
Legiath
Posts: 103
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 6:27 am

DEN1895 wrote:
LAXPolaris wrote:
DEN1895 wrote:
Simply put, mistakes were made when giving UA and WN too many gates, the A40-A46 south side gates could have easily stayed common use to allow for other airlines to grow at DEN and relieve pressure off the North side gates. The one thing that may change is that Spirit may only operate using one gate as they have reduced their flights post pandemic. They have been operating with only one gate for probably 18 months, but that is just a theory.


I know UA is going to end at 90 gates post expansion, what is WN's number? And are DL and AA still 6 each?

Here is the full list:

UA - 90
WN - 40
F9 - 14
DL - 6
AA - 5
NK - 2
AS - 1
Common Use - 8

There are 4 shared gates for Denver Air and Southern as well, but that is pretty much the breakdown.

I can’t see UA needing all 5 international WB gates on A West. Do you think they would let star alliance partners use them? That could relieve some pressure on the common use gates.
 
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LAXPolaris
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 7:41 am

Legiath wrote:
DEN1895 wrote:
LAXPolaris wrote:

I know UA is going to end at 90 gates post expansion, what is WN's number? And are DL and AA still 6 each?

Here is the full list:

UA - 90
WN - 40
F9 - 14
DL - 6
AA - 5
NK - 2
AS - 1
Common Use - 8

There are 4 shared gates for Denver Air and Southern as well, but that is pretty much the breakdown.

I can’t see UA needing all 5 international WB gates on A West. Do you think they would let star alliance partners use them? That could relieve some pressure on the common use gates.


You are right they probably don't need all 5 for international, but they could also start putting more domestic WBs in A. Granted they still have 4 in B as well so that raises the question do they really need 9 total? I could see them letting LH use them just like they do in ORD, who else though? The only other airline that uses UA's gates at ORD is NH, so would they only let JV partners use them?

The amount of international WBs gates built leads me to think we should be expecting some new long haul routes soon from UA out of DEN. They obviously plan for these things, and while they may never need 5 at the same time, some expansion is coming. There has been lots of discussion about this both here in the Denver thread as well as the UA network thread, but I think there are valid cases for AMS, CDG, BRU, and ZRH. Maybe FCO too - especially given that ITA will hopefully be part of the LH JV soon.
 
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intotheair
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 8:56 am

SEA wrote:
ramprat74 wrote:
SEA wrote:

What WB is DL regularly sending to DEN??


Delta has been using widebody aircraft in DEN since Stapleton. I use to work on the E concourse and use to see Delta 767-300 and L-1011 aircraft all the time.


I know, but these days I rarely see any widebody from DL outside of the holiday season. That’s why I questioned the poster who said “regular.” Right now the biggest bird that DL sends with what I would say is regularity is the A321. Most DL widebodies lately seem to be sports charters.


I feel like it was certainly a regular occurrence up until the NW merger. I have it in my head that it was shortly after that (2009-ish) when we didn't see a daily 767 to ATL anymore. It still seemed like an occasional thing ever since, but combing through schedules now, and I can't find a DL widebody scheduled to come into DEN. If anything, they might bring a 767 in for a few days around Thanksgiving and Christmas, but I couldn't really even find that in the schedules when I was poking through.

It's worth pointing out that DL retired their domestic 763s and has taken on a ton of A321s in the last few years, which can be seen in DL's schedule ex-DEN for May 26 (the Friday before Memorial Day):

ATL: 9x 321
BOS: 1x 321
CVG: 1x 738
DTW: 4x 321
JFK: 2x 738, 1x 739
LAX: 3x 319
LGA: 2x 738
MSP: 6x 321
SEA: 1x 738, 1x 223, 1x 221
SLC: 1x 738, 2x 223, 1x 319, 1x 321

That's still a not-insignificant amount of capacity for an outstation!
 
DEN1895
Posts: 575
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 9:50 am

LAXPolaris wrote:
Legiath wrote:
DEN1895 wrote:
Here is the full list:

UA - 90
WN - 40
F9 - 14
DL - 6
AA - 5
NK - 2
AS - 1
Common Use - 8

There are 4 shared gates for Denver Air and Southern as well, but that is pretty much the breakdown.

I can’t see UA needing all 5 international WB gates on A West. Do you think they would let star alliance partners use them? That could relieve some pressure on the common use gates.


You are right they probably don't need all 5 for international, but they could also start putting more domestic WBs in A. Granted they still have 4 in B as well so that raises the question do they really need 9 total? I could see them letting LH use them just like they do in ORD, who else though? The only other airline that uses UA's gates at ORD is NH, so would they only let JV partners use them?

The amount of international WBs gates built leads me to think we should be expecting some new long haul routes soon from UA out of DEN. They obviously plan for these things, and while they may never need 5 at the same time, some expansion is coming. There has been lots of discussion about this both here in the Denver thread as well as the UA network thread, but I think there are valid cases for AMS, CDG, BRU, and ZRH. Maybe FCO too - especially given that ITA will hopefully be part of the LH JV soon.


UA in total has 5 WB up to 777 gates on B along with 2 WB up to 767 gates. While UA currently only 3 or so international widebody's arrive at one time now, you also need to account for all of the NB that come in from Mexico and other beach destinations in the afternoon as well. These will take up some of these gates as each WB gate can accommodate 2 NBs. Currently UA usually will deplane the aircraft on A then tow it over to B as they need the international gates for additional flights. I would not be surprised once they get the additional gates and open the A club if they keep the the incoming planes on A which will extend their time at the gate.
 
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cosyr
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 12:39 pm

DEN1895 wrote:
Legiath wrote:
LAXPolaris wrote:

Wow, I’m learning so much about DEN from you, thank you!

Based on the deck it looks like Alaska and Spirit are getting those gates which seems odd as they have no international flights into DEN.

I agree it seemed odd. Those gates would be better utilized as common use NB international gates. Spirit and Alaska aren’t scheduled to move until early 2024 so there’s still time to modify plans, especially if C West expansion were to be announced soon.


Simply put, mistakes were made when giving UA and WN too many gates, the A40-A46 south side gates could have easily stayed common use to allow for other airlines to grow at DEN and relieve pressure off the North side gates. The one thing that may change is that Spirit may only operate using one gate as they have reduced their flights post pandemic. They have been operating with only one gate for probably 18 months, but that is just a theory.

They can still solve this if they either convince WN to let AS and NK stay on C, in exchange for priority use of those 4 gates on A for Intl flights, or they could offer AS and NK discounts on gate use at those gates, to keep them common use. With NK reducing service, and some flexibility on AS's part, airlines from Mexico and WN could use them with their narrowbody planes, and keep the north side of A for more larger jets.
 
theVagabond
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 1:44 pm

DEN1895 wrote:
Simply put, mistakes were made when giving UA and WN too many gates, the A40-A46 south side gates could have easily stayed common use to allow for other airlines to grow at DEN and relieve pressure off the North side gates. The one thing that may change is that Spirit may only operate using one gate as they have reduced their flights post pandemic. They have been operating with only one gate for probably 18 months, but that is just a theory.


One of many mistakes it appears. The lack of capability to expand the train capacity. A major Terminal construction project that is a solution looking for a problem. A lot of people on this Forum seem to blame Kim Day, but it seems like some of these issues have been there for a long, long time. I'm sure no one expected to grow as much as it has so quickly, but the lack of real solutions is confounding.
 
aden23
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 2:41 pm

mikejepp wrote:
303dk wrote:
manny wrote:
Always wondered, is there enough space between A and B terminals to put another terminal ?

No. The efficiency of DEN is that both concourses can push while two way traffic is also moving.

Widebody gates and international gates seem to already be short even with A west opening.

Is DL going to have a widebody gate once they move? They’ve been sending regular WB to Denver since at least 2005


Even before 2005 they were sending multiple daily L1011s and 767s


Was DEN even open when the L1011’s were flying?
 
ytib
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:16 pm

aden23 wrote:
mikejepp wrote:
303dk wrote:
No. The efficiency of DEN is that both concourses can push while two way traffic is also moving.

Widebody gates and international gates seem to already be short even with A west opening.

Is DL going to have a widebody gate once they move? They’ve been sending regular WB to Denver since at least 2005


Even before 2005 they were sending multiple daily L1011s and 767s


Was DEN even open when the L1011’s were flying?


Delra retired the L-1011 in Summer 2001.
https://www.deltamuseum.org/exhibits/de ... eed-l-1011
 
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theAviationGeek
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:18 pm

aden23 wrote:

Was DEN even open when the L1011’s were flying?


Absolutely it was. DEN opened February 28,1995. Delta’s last flight was on July 31, 2001.

It wasn’t uncommon to see Delta TriStars parked on the south side of Concourse C along with 757s and 727s amongst other types.

American was even known for sending a DC-10 in from time to time and would park on the north side of C (around C37-39).

Last edited by theAviationGeek on Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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LAXPolaris
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:19 pm

DEN1895 wrote:
LAXPolaris wrote:
Legiath wrote:
I can’t see UA needing all 5 international WB gates on A West. Do you think they would let star alliance partners use them? That could relieve some pressure on the common use gates.


You are right they probably don't need all 5 for international, but they could also start putting more domestic WBs in A. Granted they still have 4 in B as well so that raises the question do they really need 9 total? I could see them letting LH use them just like they do in ORD, who else though? The only other airline that uses UA's gates at ORD is NH, so would they only let JV partners use them?

The amount of international WBs gates built leads me to think we should be expecting some new long haul routes soon from UA out of DEN. They obviously plan for these things, and while they may never need 5 at the same time, some expansion is coming. There has been lots of discussion about this both here in the Denver thread as well as the UA network thread, but I think there are valid cases for AMS, CDG, BRU, and ZRH. Maybe FCO too - especially given that ITA will hopefully be part of the LH JV soon.


UA in total has 5 WB up to 777 gates on B along with 2 WB up to 767 gates. While UA currently only 3 or so international widebody's arrive at one time now, you also need to account for all of the NB that come in from Mexico and other beach destinations in the afternoon as well. These will take up some of these gates as each WB gate can accommodate 2 NBs. Currently UA usually will deplane the aircraft on A then tow it over to B as they need the international gates for additional flights. I would not be surprised once they get the additional gates and open the A club if they keep the the incoming planes on A which will extend their time at the gate.


In terminal B, I know B32, B36, B38, B42 can handle WBs, (777/787), what am I missing? B10? I’ve seen WBs scheduled to arrive at B10, but every time they’ve been moved to one of the ones I mentioned so wasn’t sure if B10 was actually a WB gate or not.
 
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theAviationGeek
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:26 pm

LAXPolaris wrote:

In terminal B, I know B32, B36, B38, B42 can handle WBs, (777/787), what am I missing? B10? I’ve seen WBs scheduled to arrive at B10, but every time they’ve been moved to one of the ones I mentioned so wasn’t sure if B10 was actually a WB gate or not.



B10 can accept a widebody. Additionally, B39 and B43 can handle a 767 for sure (in years past it wasn’t out of the question to see a 777 or DC-10 parked there as well).

I think for now though it’s configured for ADG IV aircraft only (B767).
 
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LAXPolaris
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:37 pm

theAviationGeek wrote:
LAXPolaris wrote:

In terminal B, I know B32, B36, B38, B42 can handle WBs, (777/787), what am I missing? B10? I’ve seen WBs scheduled to arrive at B10, but every time they’ve been moved to one of the ones I mentioned so wasn’t sure if B10 was actually a WB gate or not.



B10 can accept a widebody. Additionally, B39 and B43 can handle a 767 for sure (in years past it wasn’t out of the question to see a 777 or DC-10 parked there as well).

I think for now though it’s configured for ADG IV aircraft only (B767).


Pretty sure if a WB is at B39, they can’t be using B41. Not sure about B43 if it is the same case or not, but feel like it likely is.

Back in the midst of Covid when they had all the added capacity to Hawaii, they were flying daily 777s to HNL and OGG and well as daily 763s to HNL, OGG, LIH, and KOA. The 4 main gates WB gates were full at time with this schedule, and they had ti use B39 as well. Maybe they used B43 as well, I didn’t see it personally though. However, I had a flight to OGG from B39 on a 763, and B41 was empty, the tail goes over way to far there was no way they could’ve been using it for a mainline.
 
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theAviationGeek
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:43 pm

You asked which gates can handle WB aircraft and I was answering that — but yes, just like if B10W is used, it knocks out B12. If B39W or B43W are used, that knocks out B41.

During DEN’s early years while the DC-10s and 767s were common at DEN, B41 didn’t even have a jet bridge attached despite having the interior podiums and gate area.
 
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LAXPolaris
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:12 pm

theAviationGeek wrote:
You asked which gates can handle WB aircraft and I was answering that — but yes, just like if B10W is used, it knocks out B12. If B39W or B43W are used, that knocks out B41.

During DEN’s early years while the DC-10s and 767s were common at DEN, B41 didn’t even have a jet bridge attached despite having the interior podiums and gate area.


Ah got it, sorry I should’ve been more clear in my question. But yes that is what I thought, B32, B36, B38, and B42 are the only WB gates that won’t affect another gate.
 
bfitzflyer
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:18 pm

Thread has me a tad confused. I thought there was one terminal, Jeppesen and A, B, C concourses. Reading a lot of posts referring to A, B and C as terminals. Which is it?
 
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theAviationGeek
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 6:24 pm

There’s the main Terminal (Jeppesen Terminal) and then Concourses A, B, and C.

Although a few years back the airport changed their references from “Concourse _” to the “A Gates”, “B Gates”, and “C Gates”. The train announcements and nearly all signage have been updated to reflect this. Apparently the word “Concourse” was a bit too confusing for the modern traveler.
 
smokeybandit
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 6:36 pm

There's one terminal (meaning all passengers for all gates enter into the same building), then gates on 3 distinctly separate concourses.
 
glbltrvlr
Posts: 1034
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 6:45 pm

Are United no longer using the RJ gates at the end of A (A71-A87)? That was quite a hike.
 
sUAisDL
Posts: 73
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 6:50 pm

No they left that area last year
 
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intotheair
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 7:03 pm

theAviationGeek wrote:
There’s the main Terminal (Jeppesen Terminal) and then Concourses A, B, and C.

Although a few years back the airport changed their references from “Concourse _” to the “A Gates”, “B Gates”, and “C Gates”. The train announcements and nearly all signage have been updated to reflect this. Apparently the word “Concourse” was a bit too confusing for the modern traveler.


They also phased out the use of the word “Terminal” at that time so the train announcements were changed to describe it as “baggage claim and ground transportation.” I guess they thought people would confuse it with terminal cancer?

What drives me crazy is now so much of the public calls the concourses “terminals.” Even UA recently changed their nomenclature to call them “terminals.” If you open up the United app, it will now tell you that your flight leaves in “Terminal B” but won’t tell you that check-in and bag drop off is at Terminal West.
 
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LAXPolaris
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 7:08 pm

intotheair wrote:
theAviationGeek wrote:
There’s the main Terminal (Jeppesen Terminal) and then Concourses A, B, and C.

Although a few years back the airport changed their references from “Concourse _” to the “A Gates”, “B Gates”, and “C Gates”. The train announcements and nearly all signage have been updated to reflect this. Apparently the word “Concourse” was a bit too confusing for the modern traveler.


They also phased out the use of the word “Terminal” at that time so the train announcements were changed to describe it as “baggage claim and ground transportation.” I guess they thought people would confuse it with terminal cancer?

What drives me crazy is now so much of the public calls the concourses “terminals.” Even UA recently changed their nomenclature to call them “terminals.” If you open up the United app, it will now tell you that your flight leaves in “Terminal B” but won’t tell you that check-in and bag drop off is at Terminal West.


Yes!! I thought I was the only person that was annoyed by this, glad to hear it isn’t just me! On the UA app/website, under each gate it would say “Concourse B, Terminal West” but now it says “Terminal B”. I was so confused why they changed that. There was actually a period of time, maybe a month or two, where there was nothing under the gate at all once they removed the “Concourse B, Terminal West” then they added the “Terminal B”. Were these changes at the direction of the airport not wanting to use concourse anymore?
 
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intotheair
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 7:18 pm

LAXPolaris wrote:
Were these changes at the direction of the airport not wanting to use concourse anymore?


I think that was probably a UA decision, not a DEN decision. It seems like the change on the UA app was fairly recently. DEN stopped using the term “concourse” publicly more than a decade ago, but I don’t think anything else has changed there — DEN has one terminal (with two curbsides) and three satellite concourses.

All of UA’s hubs except for DEN are in “Terminal X,” so I wonder if maybe UA wanted to standardize for their purposes, even though calling it “Terminal B” is incorrect.
 
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theAviationGeek
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 7:23 pm

Just did a quick look at United’s App and their map of DEN even references A Gates, B Gates which is in conflict with how they list flight status (Terminal B).

Interestingly, a quick check of a flight departing ORD, they list things correctly: Terminal 1, Concourse B.
 
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LAXPolaris
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Re: Denver Aviation - 2023

Sun Apr 23, 2023 7:26 pm

intotheair wrote:
LAXPolaris wrote:
Were these changes at the direction of the airport not wanting to use concourse anymore?


I think that was probably a UA decision, not a DEN decision. It seems like the change on the UA app was fairly recently. DEN stopped using the term “concourse” publicly more than a decade ago, but I don’t think anything else has changed there — DEN has one terminal (with two curbsides) and three satellite concourses.

All of UA’s hubs except for DEN are in “Terminal X,” so I wonder if maybe UA wanted to standardize for their purposes, even though calling it “Terminal B” is incorrect.


UA actually uses concourses at most of its other hubs in their app, just like they used to for DEN.

Here are examples for other hubs:
ORD - Terminal 1, Concourse B
EWR - Terminal C, Concourse C3
IAD - Main Terminal, Concourse C
SFO - Terminal 3, Concourse E

IAH and LAX don’t use concourses. At IAH they refer to each terminal as its own, and LAX they just call everything Terminal 7, even if it’s in Concourse 8, they still just call that Terminal 7.

So DEN used to be in line with the others, no doesn’t make any sense to me why they would change it.

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