Welcome to the Upstate New York Aviation thread - 2023 edition.

Please continue to post your news and discussions below.

Link to the 2022 edition:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468593

As 2023 begins, what are everyone’s predictions for new routes and such from the Upstate Airports?

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

As 2023 begins, what are everyone’s predictions for new routes and such from the Upstate Airports?

I don't know about new routes, but I predict continued expansion in upstate. I expect we will see more mainline over express and more frequencies on hub routes. UA still doesn't have the schedule they used to to IAD, even though they have more mainline to SYR than ever before. With all the new 737's they have to be delivered in 2023, very few planned retirements, and continued regional pilot shortages, they have to increase capacity. I hope it helps level out fares.

Some things I'd like to see for ROC:

--Would love to see Delta add MSP back. I find it hard to believe it couldn't support a CR7 or CR9.

--Although I don't use ULCC's myself, lots of people do, and it was good to add Spirit to the mix in 2022. For 2023, I'd like to see Spirit run the promised MYR route from last summer, that they never started after delaying entry to ROC to the fall. Maybe a few weekly flights to FLL to go along with MCO.

--For Frontier, maybe a few weekly flights to LAS? AirTran ran 3x weekly LAS before the financial crisis in 2008.

--I'd really like to see someone add LAX. Maybe JetBlue with an EMB-190.

--AA, maybe a daily CR7 or E175 to DFW.

--WN is looking pretty good right now with BWI, MDW, and MCO. My guess is their MCO and TPA flights stay Saturday-only most of the year.

--UA is also looking pretty good. Would like to see daily DEN, but could the market support both UA and F9?

--My guess is G4 remains about the same. I wonder if 2x weekly SRQ might work in winter?

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

Some things I'd like to see for ROC:

--Would love to see Delta add MSP back. I find it hard to believe it couldn't support a CR7 or CR9.

I'd like to see that at SYR as well.

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

--UA is also looking pretty good. Would like to see daily DEN, but could the market support both UA and F9?

If it works at SYR, I don't see why it couldn't work at ROC. I was worried that it would struggle, when UA upgauged it to an A319 from the E175. In fact, my SYR-DEN flight last week got upgraded to an A320 and was sold out.

For BUF in 2023 wishlist:

- Southwest getting back to daily Vegas and Phoenix flights. Those flights did very well pre pandemic.

- A legacy carrier showing more faith in the Airport. -> Which I think that has already started with Delta, American, and Frontier using A321s for some of their routes.

- Legacy carrier to start a new route / new destination. San Francisco or Seattle. ( just as example of cities. That doesn't mean i mean those exact locations)

- LONG SHOT - Cancun, Punta Cana, or some tropical destination. ( I am not sure if frontier or the other carrier will be having those flights this spring)

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:

For BUF in 2023 wishlist:
- Southwest getting back to daily Vegas and Phoenix flights. Those flights did very well pre pandemic.
- A legacy carrier showing more faith in the Airport. -> Which I think that has already started with Delta, American, and Frontier using A321s for some of their routes.
- Legacy carrier to start a new route / new destination. San Francisco or Seattle. ( just as example of cities. That doesn't mean i mean those exact locations)
- LONG SHOT - Cancun, Punta Cana, or some tropical destination. ( I am not sure if frontier or the other carrier will be having those flights this spring)

WN getting daily PHX and LAS flights back at BUF seem like reasonable hopes to me. I don't know what the PDEW are for each, but both are hubs for WN which helps.
I'd guess BUF can look for even more A321's--and maybe some 757s (which UA operated at some point in the past year or two) in 2023.
I'm not sure about SFO or SEA, but SFO especially doesn't seem impossible. B6's LAX flight seems to have worked out well.
I don't know enough about the Caribbean and Mexico to know about CUN or PUJ as scheduled flights, but maybe a weekly Saturday charter in the winter?

cosyr wrote:

If it works at SYR, I don't see why it couldn't work at ROC. I was worried that it would struggle, when UA upgauged it to an A319 from the E175. In fact, my SYR-DEN flight last week got upgraded to an A320 and was sold out.

I'd love to see that at ROC. DEN on F9 appears to be seasonal for us; now TPA and MCO seem to be our F9 destinations. Maybe we could have UA too.

I wonder if G4 would start MLB-ELM? The flights I was recently on were packed. Also, there’s usually a lot of people coming from the Melbourne area to Corning for business.

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:

For BUF in 2023 wishlist:

- Southwest getting back to daily Vegas and Phoenix flights. Those flights did very well pre pandemic.

Here were the number of passengers, number of seats, and load factors that F9 had on BUF-AUS in 2018:
20228 passengers, 25968 seats, 77.90% load factor

BUF can probably support at least Saturday-only nonstop service to AUS on WN with
(a) WN now having a much bigger presence at AUS than it did prior to the COVID-19 pandemic,
(b) WN having a bigger presence than F9 does at BUF,
(c) F9 having decent load factors on BUF-AUS in 2018,
(d) WN able to more easily fill BUF-AUS nonstop flights than F9 could with WN able to use 143-seat 737-700's on BUF-AUS whereas F9 would have to use 180-seat A320's or bigger planes to serve AUS nonstop from BUF.

I'll take a BUF-BNA flight on any carrier. Heck, I would even take IAG-BNA. My parents are getting too old run through CLT and smaller airports like SYR, ALB, CAK and MDT all seem to support BNA service but for reason the Buffalo area is left out.

usflyer msp wrote:

I'll take a BUF-BNA flight on any carrier. Heck, I would even take IAG-BNA. My parents are getting too old run through CLT and smaller airports like SYR, ALB, CAK and MDT all seem to support BNA service but for reason the Buffalo area is left out.

WN flew it in 2019. It was a COVID cut. Hope to see it return.

Delta 2466, an A220-100, on the way to ROC from BOS. Flightaware shows it started on Monday, and shows it for two days ahead. Another new aircraft type at ROC!

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL ... /KBOS/KROC

I saw in Feb, UA is running a 739 from EWR-SYR. It's a RON, but still...

southwest1675 wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

I'll take a BUF-BNA flight on any carrier. Heck, I would even take IAG-BNA. My parents are getting too old run through CLT and smaller airports like SYR, ALB, CAK and MDT all seem to support BNA service but for reason the Buffalo area is left out.

WN flew it in 2019. It was a COVID cut. Hope to see it return.

And, indeed, into 2020 Saturday only. I was actually booked on it in late March but that trip, obviously, did not happen. I can't recall if it was scheduled to come back to daily for summer 2020 pre-pandemic.

I think the "left out" issue is more related to the lack of G4 at BUF than to any issue with the market or with demand. And BNA gets a lot of Canadian tourists, which further helps the case for BNA-BUF.

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

Delta 2466, an A220-100, on the way to ROC from BOS. Flightaware shows it started on Monday, and shows it for two days ahead. Another new aircraft type at ROC!

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL ... /KBOS/KROC

BUF has the same thing going on. Delta using NY state airports as parking lots LOL

jplatts wrote:

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:

For BUF in 2023 wishlist:

- Southwest getting back to daily Vegas and Phoenix flights. Those flights did very well pre pandemic.

Here were the number of passengers, number of seats, and load factors that F9 had on BUF-AUS in 2018:
20228 passengers, 25968 seats, 77.90% load factor

BUF can probably support at least Saturday-only nonstop service to AUS on WN with
(a) WN now having a much bigger presence at AUS than it did prior to the COVID-19 pandemic,
(b) WN having a bigger presence than F9 does at BUF,
(c) F9 having decent load factors on BUF-AUS in 2018,
(d) WN able to more easily fill BUF-AUS nonstop flights than F9 could with WN able to use 143-seat 737-700's on BUF-AUS whereas F9 would have to use 180-seat A320's or bigger planes to serve AUS nonstop from BUF.

I wonder if the Southwest issues were due to lack of employees or lack of planes during COVID.

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:

BUF has the same thing going on. Delta using NY state airports as parking lots LOL

If it gets us each a flight to Boston, let them park all the planes they want!

UA has re-timed DEN-SYR. From what I can see, starting 05MAY23, equipment switches to a 738 with the following schedule:

Dep DEN 1728 Arr SYR 2250
Dep SYR 0816 Arr DEN 1019

IAD-SYR also drops to 2x daily and loses all mainline, and the CRJ-200 makes an appearance on ORD-SYR for the first time in a long time.

panam330 wrote:

UA has re-timed DEN-SYR. From what I can see, starting 05MAY23, equipment switches to a 738 with the following schedule:

Dep DEN 1728 Arr SYR 2250
Dep SYR 0816 Arr DEN 1019

IAD-SYR also drops to 2x daily and loses all mainline, and the CRJ-200 makes an appearance on ORD-SYR for the first time in a long time.

Well that's disappointing. The DEN-SYR were perfectly timed for a once daily flight. Getting back at 11pm is not great.

cosyr wrote:

panam330 wrote:

UA has re-timed DEN-SYR. From what I can see, starting 05MAY23, equipment switches to a 738 with the following schedule:

Dep DEN 1728 Arr SYR 2250
Dep SYR 0816 Arr DEN 1019

IAD-SYR also drops to 2x daily and loses all mainline, and the CRJ-200 makes an appearance on ORD-SYR for the first time in a long time.

Well that's disappointing. The DEN-SYR were perfectly timed for a once daily flight. Getting back at 11pm is not great.

I will miss the midafternoon westbound, which was perfectly timed for my wants. The eastbound being later helps immensely with connections from the west coast, which currently require pre-0600 departures - unappealing, to say the least.

For ALB I hope to see these:

AA adding DFW and MIA going daily

F9 returning (seems unlikely however)

WN bringing DEN daily, and if not UA starting DEN to fill the gap F9 left

Avelo to MCO, TPA, RSW and possibly RDU to once again fill the gap F9 left

Reach but Breeze to LAS, LAX, and possibly SFO

albspotter wrote:

For ALB I hope to see these:
WN bringing DEN daily, and if not UA starting DEN to fill the gap F9 left

WN is going to be increasing ALB-DEN nonstop service back to daily nonstop service starting on 7/11/2023 according to https://swamedia.com/releases/release-7 ... ug-14-2023.

I was just at SYR the other day, and saw that the old jetBlue gate (gate 15) has been replaced. But it isn't one of the newer glass jetways, that some have been replaced with. I assume eventually all of them will be replaced. Any idea if they will be more of the regular jetway's, or one of the newer types that are glass?

jetblue01 wrote:

I was just at SYR the other day, and saw that the old jetBlue gate (gate 15) has been replaced. But it isn't one of the newer glass jetways, that some have been replaced with. I assume eventually all of them will be replaced. Any idea if they will be more of the regular jetway's, or one of the newer types that are glass?

I know they are replacing a number of the old jetways, but I don't know specifically about the Gate 15 jetway. Apparently they are renovating the Gate 15 area to adapt it to enable CBP processing, with an eye toward future international service.

jetblue01 wrote:

I was just at SYR the other day, and saw that the old jetBlue gate (gate 15) has been replaced. But it isn't one of the newer glass jetways, that some have been replaced with. I assume eventually all of them will be replaced. Any idea if they will be more of the regular jetway's, or one of the newer types that are glass?

From the RFP it indeed looks like they are requesting metal-walled bridges with plastic interiors:

The wall and floor panels shall be constructed utilizing smooth steel sided cold roll panels for basis of design, or galvannealed steel panels attached to a framework of angle and tubing.

The tunnel wall treatment shall be high pressure laminate melamine plastic panels, floor to ceiling.

After a long hiatus, it looks like DL will resume mainline service on ALB-DTW this Summer. It looks like SYR-DTW will receive mainline as well.

They are also up-gauging the morning ALB-ATL flight to an A321.

https://ishrionaviation.com/news/breeze ... -expansion
Breeze adding a Syracuse to Norfolk flight. Not exactly the best route but I do have family in the Norfolk area so I’ll wait and see

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

https://ishrionaviation.com/news/breeze-airways-route-expansion
Breeze adding a Syracuse to Norfolk flight. Not exactly the best route but I do have family in the Norfolk area so I’ll wait and see

That one is a head scratcher. Is this about connections, military, or are they trying to build up Virginia Beach like Myrtle Beach?

cosyr wrote:

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

https://ishrionaviation.com/news/breeze-airways-route-expansion
Breeze adding a Syracuse to Norfolk flight. Not exactly the best route but I do have family in the Norfolk area so I’ll wait and see

That one is a head scratcher. Is this about connections, military, or are they trying to build up Virginia Beach like Myrtle Beach?

The Outer Banks are also close to ORF. I would see this as a seasonal route to start. The increase in N/S opportunities out of SYR in the past few years has been amazing.

USAirALB wrote:

After a long hiatus, it looks like DL will resume mainline service on ALB-DTW this Summer. It looks like SYR-DTW will receive mainline as well.

They are also up-gauging the morning ALB-ATL flight to an A321.

Interesting... and Delta flies TUS to DTW.... Maybe my next flight into Albany to visit family will feature a Detroit routing... TUS DTW ALB?

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:

USAirALB wrote:

After a long hiatus, it looks like DL will resume mainline service on ALB-DTW this Summer. It looks like SYR-DTW will receive mainline as well.

They are also up-gauging the morning ALB-ATL flight to an A321.

Interesting... and Delta flies TUS to DTW.... Maybe my next flight into Albany to visit family will feature a Detroit routing... TUS DTW ALB?

They don’t fly DTW TUS, that’s just a repo flight for a plane they are parking in the desert.

Airlines are starting to add in flying the week of May 13th-22nd to ROC for the PGA Championship. Some of the upgrades/routes being added so far include:

AA ROC-DFW daily on a 738
AA ROC-ORD upgraded to 2X 738
AA ROC-CLT upgraded to 3X 321

DL ROC-ATL upgraded to 2X 321 (in addition to the 3rd 320)

NK is adding nonstop ROC-MYR 4x weekly on May 5. This service was supposed to run last year when NK originally was going to start ROC service in the summer, but wasn't run when the service start was pushed back to October.

https://13wham.com/news/local/rochester ... OT2FW21CTg

ROCDLFAN wrote:

Airlines are starting to add in flying the week of May 13th-22nd to ROC for the PGA Championship. Some of the upgrades/routes being added so far include:

AA ROC-DFW daily on a 738
AA ROC-ORD upgraded to 2X 738
AA ROC-CLT upgraded to 3X 321

DL ROC-ATL upgraded to 2X 321 (in addition to the 3rd 320)

Very cool. I don't know if I'll be in Rochester during those dates, but if I am, I'll try to get pictures. I still have not gotten a picture of an A321 at ROC yet. I've gotten a UA 739 before but no A321 yet. I'm going to Rochester next week. AA and F9 both seem to be running about one to a few a week, it looks like, so maybe I can catch one of those.

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

ROCDLFAN wrote:

Airlines are starting to add in flying the week of May 13th-22nd to ROC for the PGA Championship. Some of the upgrades/routes being added so far include:

AA ROC-DFW daily on a 738
AA ROC-ORD upgraded to 2X 738
AA ROC-CLT upgraded to 3X 321

DL ROC-ATL upgraded to 2X 321 (in addition to the 3rd 320)

Very cool. I don't know if I'll be in Rochester during those dates, but if I am, I'll try to get pictures. I still have not gotten a picture of an A321 at ROC yet. I've gotten a UA 739 before but no A321 yet. I'm going to Rochester next week. AA and F9 both seem to be running about one to a few a week, it looks like, so maybe I can catch one of those.

The morning of May 22nd you’re going to have 3 AA mainline RON’s - the most ROC has had by AA/US in over 15 years. Very much hoping someone will be able to spot that! Already planning on going out of my way to take AA for a very scenic commute back to ROC that week just to try their DFW flight.

ROCDLFAN wrote:

Airlines are starting to add in flying the week of May 13th-22nd to ROC for the PGA Championship. Some of the upgrades/routes being added so far include:

AA ROC-DFW daily on a 738
AA ROC-ORD upgraded to 2X 738
AA ROC-CLT upgraded to 3X 321

DL ROC-ATL upgraded to 2X 321 (in addition to the 3rd 320)

This is very cool to see indeed. I think the last time I personally saw three AA mainline tails overnight in ROC was the night of 9/12/01 when I worked for Eagle. I didn't work on 9/11/01.

However, I was looking on the AA website and saw that the ROC-DFW flight is only loaded through May 18th as an afternoon turn. They aren't going to take advantage of the mass exodus of people leaving ROC during the weekend or is it just not loaded yet?

aeroc wrote:

ROCDLFAN wrote:

Airlines are starting to add in flying the week of May 13th-22nd to ROC for the PGA Championship. Some of the upgrades/routes being added so far include:

AA ROC-DFW daily on a 738
AA ROC-ORD upgraded to 2X 738
AA ROC-CLT upgraded to 3X 321

DL ROC-ATL upgraded to 2X 321 (in addition to the 3rd 320)

This is very cool to see indeed. I think the last time I personally saw three AA mainline tails overnight in ROC was the night of 9/12/01 when I worked for Eagle. I didn't work on 9/11/01.

However, I was looking on the AA website and saw that the ROC-DFW flight is only loaded through May 18th as an afternoon turn. They aren't going to take advantage of the mass exodus of people leaving ROC during the weekend or is it just not loaded yet?

There is an afternoon turn on 5/21 and a Launch flight on 5/22

The aviation news site Ishrion Aviation is reporting that Avelo will start service at ROC, flying to RDU. We'll see if this route happens, but if so it would fill a 22-year gap in ROC's network. Midway II served ROC-RDU from about 1998 to 2001.

https://twitter.com/IshrionA/status/1633626824520474624

General question for Upstaters: anyone have updates on when / if Delta will restore MSP nonstop flights at BUF/ ROC/ SYR/ ALB?

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

General question for Upstaters: anyone have updates on when / if Delta will restore MSP nonstop flights at BUF/ ROC/ SYR/ ALB?

BUF restarts 6/5.

I assume the AA additions are temporary for the PGA? ROC hasn't had AA mainline in 20+ years. Never had it to DFW except for Eagle CR7's a long time ago.

Avelo would be nice.

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

General question for Upstaters: anyone have updates on when / if Delta will restore MSP nonstop flights at BUF/ ROC/ SYR/ ALB?

DL runs BUF during the summer, only because SY flies it as well.

United_fan wrote:

I assume the AA additions are temporary for the PGA? ROC hasn't had AA mainline in 20+ years. Never had it to DFW except for Eagle CR7's a long time ago.

Avelo would be nice.

ROC has had AA mainline metal since the merger with AWE in 2015, but if you’re referencing legAAcy (couldn’t resist) AA routes, then yes, mainline on ORD and the resumption of DFW are (for now) temporary. With that being said, I think that ROC/ALB-DFW are genuinely only a matter of time until they’re scheduled to resume daily. DFW has to be the most glaring hole for both upstate cities.

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

The aviation news site Ishrion Aviation is reporting that Avelo will start service at ROC, flying to RDU. We'll see if this route happens, but if so it would fill a 22-year gap in ROC's network. Midway II served ROC-RDU from about 1998 to 2001.

https://twitter.com/IshrionA/status/1633626824520474624

All rumored of course, but an announcement next week is what I’ve heard floated around fairly loudly over the last couple of days.

Frontier is pulling out of ROC effective 5/9. Not sure what to think about this since they stranded me once in TPA cancelling a flight. Frontier flew to MCO year round and TPA and DEN seasonally.

https://www.rochesterfirst.com/news/loc ... l-airport/

ROCDLFAN wrote:

United_fan wrote:

I assume the AA additions are temporary for the PGA? ROC hasn't had AA mainline in 20+ years. Never had it to DFW except for Eagle CR7's a long time ago.

Avelo would be nice.

ROC has had AA mainline metal since the merger with AWE in 2015, but if you’re referencing legAAcy (couldn’t resist) AA routes, then yes, mainline on ORD and the resumption of DFW are (for now) temporary. With that being said, I think that ROC/ALB-DFW are genuinely only a matter of time until they’re scheduled to resume daily. DFW has to be the most glaring hole for both upstate cities.

I meant mainline ROC-ORD on AA. Too bad about Frontier leaving.

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:

For BUF in 2023 wishlist:

- Southwest getting back to daily Vegas and Phoenix flights. Those flights did very well pre pandemic.

- A legacy carrier showing more faith in the Airport. -> Which I think that has already started with Delta, American, and Frontier using A321s for some of their routes.

- Legacy carrier to start a new route / new destination. San Francisco or Seattle. ( just as example of cities. That doesn't mean i mean those exact locations)

- LONG SHOT - Cancun, Punta Cana, or some tropical destination. ( I am not sure if frontier or the other carrier will be having those flights this spring)

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/VIV ... /MMUN/KBUF

Through Apple Vacations.

Sorry to see Frontier leave ROC. What is their load factor here? This might bode well for Avelo or Breeze to provide service to ROC.

The other ROC guys may know more, but my impression is that Frontier was probably impacted by Spirit's arrival and a competing daily flight to MCO. Frontier's 'bread and butter' route at ROC seems to have been MCO, with the other routes being seasonal (TPA in winter, DEN in summer). Allegiant and I think Southwest are both less than weekly to MCO, so less of a factor. I wonder if Frontier didn't want to run a less than weekly flight to MCO. Too bad they weren't willing to try other things (say 2x or 3x weekly FLL, and maybe LAS) and keep the station open. Also, I wonder if the pilot shortage is impacting F9 and they're being stingier on what they'll tolerate.