Minneapolis Aviation - 2023

janders · Sun Jan 01, 2023 3:49 am

Welcome to the Minneapolis Aviation thread for 2023.

Please continue to post your news and discussions below.

Link to the now-locked previous 2022 edition
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468533

rainaviation2 · Sun Jan 01, 2023 10:32 pm

Continuing the conversation about ramp/terminal space around T2...

The entire business model of SY would need to change if they wanted to spread out their traffic. They fly those 7-8 AM departures south, and then those planes ALL fly back in the afternoon. Then they do the same thing again. It would not be cost effective to wait and have their aircraft departing in a later morning block, and it is not to their financial benefit to have planes sitting overnight in smaller destinations.

Cheers to a great 2023 to all! It will be a big year of new routes, new amenities, and new construction projects at MSP!

rainaviation2 · Wed Jan 04, 2023 4:28 am

Loads of issues with diversions and such coming into MSP today. Saw some WEIRD flight patterns on FlightAware, and weird use of RWY 35 and 4 for T/O and Landing simultaneously.

Either this SY pilot was drunk, or ATC had no idea where to put this plane...

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SCX ... /KRSW/KMSP

usflyer msp · Wed Jan 04, 2023 4:31 am

rainaviation2 wrote:
Loads of issues with diversions and such coming into MSP today. Saw some WEIRD flight patterns on FlightAware, and weird use of RWY 35 and 4 for T/O and Landing simultaneously.

Either this SY pilot was drunk, or ATC had no idea where to put this plane...

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SCX ... /KRSW/KMSP

A DL plane went off the runway and that combined with freezing rain caused the airport to close again (it had been closed earlier for weather) causing tons of diversions like the SY flight referenced.

rainaviation2 · Sat Jan 14, 2023 3:44 pm

The Business Journal reports that MSP is looking for bids for upgrades in both the bag claim and ticketing areas over at T1...

What are they bidding on? Bag claim is already undergoing a massive overhaul which is almost complete, and ticketing has already seen massive upgrades with the wall of elevators, the increased walking space, new checkpoints, and new signage.

https://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/ ... claim.html

rainaviation2 · Tue Jan 24, 2023 2:00 am

Bye Air France

SESGDL · Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:30 am

rainaviation2 wrote:
Bye Air France

Our airport gets more and more boring. Fewer airlines, fewer flights, a lot less variety in aircraft types. Sadly the glory days of being an aviation enthusiast have slowly come to an end…

Jeremy

SteveXC500 · Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:52 pm

SESGDL wrote:
rainaviation2 wrote:
Bye Air France

Our airport gets more and more boring. Fewer airlines, fewer flights, a lot less variety in aircraft types. Sadly the glory days of being an aviation enthusiast have slowly come to an end…

Jeremy

Thanks Delta

BA744PHX · Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:58 pm

SteveXC500 wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
rainaviation2 wrote:
Bye Air France

Our airport gets more and more boring. Fewer airlines, fewer flights, a lot less variety in aircraft types. Sadly the glory days of being an aviation enthusiast have slowly come to an end…

Jeremy

Thanks Delta

That's pretty much how it is for DL hubs no?

stlgph · Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:05 pm

SESGDL wrote:
rainaviation2 wrote:
Bye Air France

Our airport gets more and more boring. Fewer airlines, fewer flights, a lot less variety in aircraft types. Sadly the glory days of being an aviation enthusiast have slowly come to an end…

Jeremy

Huh? Minneapolis-St Paul has a level of service offerings that 95% of airports, if they were people, would kill to have.

flyfresno · Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:04 pm

rainaviation2 wrote:
The Business Journal reports that MSP is looking for bids for upgrades in both the bag claim and ticketing areas over at T1...

What are they bidding on? Bag claim is already undergoing a massive overhaul which is almost complete, and ticketing has already seen massive upgrades with the wall of elevators, the increased walking space, new checkpoints, and new signage.

https://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/ ... claim.html

I feel like there are still possible improvements to the areas under and on the other side of the roadway, which does have a couple ticketing areas, but overall I agree with you, it's odd...

flyfresno · Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:10 pm

stlgph wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
rainaviation2 wrote:
Bye Air France

Our airport gets more and more boring. Fewer airlines, fewer flights, a lot less variety in aircraft types. Sadly the glory days of being an aviation enthusiast have slowly come to an end…

Jeremy

Huh? Minneapolis-St Paul has a level of service offerings that 95% of airports, if they were people, would kill to have.

I'd say, looking at service relative to MSA size, MSP is ok but not amazing. SEA has way, way, way more service (especially int'l) and the MSA is only a bit larger. DEN and CLT both serve smaller MSAs and have better service, and Orlando and Vegas are way smaller and have, arguably, better service (for obvious reasons though, although I'm still waiting for SnowDisneyland Minnesota). But then again, St. Louis, San Diego, Phoenix, and San Antonio are all not as good for air service and are all in a somewhat close MSA range.

rainaviation2 · Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:51 pm

flyfresno wrote:
stlgph wrote:
SESGDL wrote:

Our airport gets more and more boring. Fewer airlines, fewer flights, a lot less variety in aircraft types. Sadly the glory days of being an aviation enthusiast have slowly come to an end…

Jeremy

Huh? Minneapolis-St Paul has a level of service offerings that 95% of airports, if they were people, would kill to have.

I'd say, looking at service relative to MSA size, MSP is ok but not amazing. SEA has way, way, way more service (especially int'l) and the MSA is only a bit larger. DEN and CLT both serve smaller MSAs and have better service, and Orlando and Vegas are way smaller and have, arguably, better service (for obvious reasons though, although I'm still waiting for SnowDisneyland Minnesota). But then again, St. Louis, San Diego, Phoenix, and San Antonio are all not as good for air service and are all in a somewhat close MSA range.

I think the MSP route network is impressive and something to be happy about. It is fun to see SY continue to build up their network, but the lack of international airlines, the near total demise of JetBlue (imo they will drop BOS too, they are down to one flight in the summer), and literally only the A330 being used for long haul is quite boring.

SESGDL · Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:54 pm

stlgph wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
rainaviation2 wrote:
Bye Air France

Our airport gets more and more boring. Fewer airlines, fewer flights, a lot less variety in aircraft types. Sadly the glory days of being an aviation enthusiast have slowly come to an end…

Jeremy

Huh? Minneapolis-St Paul has a level of service offerings that 95% of airports, if they were people, would kill to have.

100%. I said from an enthusiastic perspective it’s quite boring and getting worse, but we definitely have a good amount of service. It’s nice to still have SY based here as well to keep DL honest on costs. But to the person above my post, MSP is middle of the pack compared to some other larger markets, for various reasons. But I always prefer variety over more service from DL (and variety of aircraft types - who honestly wants to see nothing but A320s/737s? But this isn’t unique to MSP). I would think most aviation enthusiasts would.

Jeremy

SESGDL · Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:55 pm

rainaviation2 wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
stlgph wrote:

Huh? Minneapolis-St Paul has a level of service offerings that 95% of airports, if they were people, would kill to have.

I'd say, looking at service relative to MSA size, MSP is ok but not amazing. SEA has way, way, way more service (especially int'l) and the MSA is only a bit larger. DEN and CLT both serve smaller MSAs and have better service, and Orlando and Vegas are way smaller and have, arguably, better service (for obvious reasons though, although I'm still waiting for SnowDisneyland Minnesota). But then again, St. Louis, San Diego, Phoenix, and San Antonio are all not as good for air service and are all in a somewhat close MSA range.

I think the MSP route network is impressive and something to be happy about. It is fun to see SY continue to build up their network, but the lack of international airlines, the near total demise of JetBlue (imo they will drop BOS too, they are down to one flight in the summer), and literally only the A330 being used for long haul is quite boring.

N292UX · Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:26 pm

SESGDL wrote:
stlgph wrote:
SESGDL wrote:

Our airport gets more and more boring. Fewer airlines, fewer flights, a lot less variety in aircraft types. Sadly the glory days of being an aviation enthusiast have slowly come to an end…

Jeremy

Huh? Minneapolis-St Paul has a level of service offerings that 95% of airports, if they were people, would kill to have.

100%. I said from an enthusiastic perspective it’s quite boring and getting worse, but we definitely have a good amount of service. It’s nice to still have SY based here as well to keep DL honest on costs. But to the person above my post, MSP is middle of the pack compared to some other larger markets, for various reasons. But I always prefer variety over more service from DL (and variety of aircraft types - who honestly wants to see nothing but A320s/737s? But this isn’t unique to MSP). I would think most aviation enthusiasts would.

Jeremy

To be fair, there's several other airports in a similar boat to MSP in regards to aircraft diversity/different airlines. CLT is pretty similar to MSP in that sense except the fact that all the long-haul flights are on the 777, there's even more A320s/737s/50 seaters and there are fewer airlines serving CLT than MSP

rainaviation2 · Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:34 pm

2022 Official Stats:

PAX: 31,241,822 (23.97% increase)

OPS: 310,235 (2.09% increase)

Antoli0794 · Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:45 am

What will be the prediction number for 2023 passengers?

PoorSailorsAir · Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:01 am

rainaviation2 wrote:
2022 Official Stats:

PAX: 31,241,822 (23.97% increase)

OPS: 310,235 (2.09% increase)

VS 39,600,000 PAX in 2019 (79% recovered)

MAC does a nice job including interesting stats.

Summary PDF:

https://metroairports.org/sites/default ... ummary.pdf

Full release:

https://metroairports.org/news/msp-airp ... ed-24-2022

rainaviation2 · Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:52 pm

Antoli0794 wrote:
What will be the prediction number for 2023 passengers?

My guess is we surpass 35,000,000 with a 50/50 shot of surpassing 38,000,000. Hold me to it

Antoli0794 · Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:01 pm

rainaviation2 wrote:
Antoli0794 wrote:
What will be the prediction number for 2023 passengers?

My guess is we surpass 35,000,000 with a 50/50 shot of surpassing 38,000,000. Hold me to it

That sounds healthy. If Sun Country continues expanding, they will continue pushing DL to add routes/seats as well.

stlgph · Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:57 pm

I'm definitely curious to see how Sun Country's expansion goes over this summer and how it impacts next year's numbers.

LAXdude1023 · Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:07 pm

Antoli0794 wrote:
rainaviation2 wrote:
Antoli0794 wrote:
What will be the prediction number for 2023 passengers?

My guess is we surpass 35,000,000 with a 50/50 shot of surpassing 38,000,000. Hold me to it

That sounds healthy. If Sun Country continues expanding, they will continue pushing DL to add routes/seats as well.

Be careful what you wish for. When AA or DL decide they want a competitor gone, they can make it happen easily but flooding the market with excess capacity. UA isnt as bad at it.

rainaviation2 · Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:41 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Antoli0794 wrote:
rainaviation2 wrote:

My guess is we surpass 35,000,000 with a 50/50 shot of surpassing 38,000,000. Hold me to it

That sounds healthy. If Sun Country continues expanding, they will continue pushing DL to add routes/seats as well.

Be careful what you wish for. When AA or DL decide they want a competitor gone, they can make it happen easily but flooding the market with excess capacity. UA isnt as bad at it.

I do not think we will ever see DL push SY out of business --> at least any time soon. They represent two very different passenger types out of MSP.

I also do not think the SY expansions will have too much impact on the pax numbers as most of their expansions are only a couple of days per week.

LAXdude1023 · Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:51 pm

rainaviation2 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Antoli0794 wrote:

That sounds healthy. If Sun Country continues expanding, they will continue pushing DL to add routes/seats as well.

Be careful what you wish for. When AA or DL decide they want a competitor gone, they can make it happen easily but flooding the market with excess capacity. UA isnt as bad at it.

I do not think we will ever see DL push SY out of business --> at least any time soon. They represent two very different passenger types out of MSP.

I also do not think the SY expansions will have too much impact on the pax numbers as most of their expansions are only a couple of days per week.

I definitely dont think they will push SY out of business or anywhere close. I was just responding to the idea that if SY starts a route, it would push DL to add more routes.

rainaviation2 · Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:09 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:

I definitely dont think they will push SY out of business or anywhere close. I was just responding to the idea that if SY starts a route, it would push DL to add more routes.

Oh, I see! Yes, I agree 100%

It is a decently safe bet that as SY continues to add new routes/destinations that DL will copy and paste lol

sunking737 · Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:10 pm

SCX, NWA/DAL have been battling for 40 years now...

Antoli0794 · Sat Feb 11, 2023 11:40 pm

With the additions of WestJet, does MSP become the gateway to Canada compared to other U.S. hubs?

SESGDL · Sun Feb 12, 2023 1:26 am

sunking737 wrote:
SCX, NWA/DAL have been battling for 40 years now...

No, there are numerous other US airports that will have considerably more flights/seats to Canada.

Jeremy

rainaviation2 · Sun Feb 12, 2023 2:59 pm

WestJet is coming to MSP! Sad to lose AF because of JV's but looks like the Delta/WestJet partnership is bringing us some more foreign metal.

From the WestJet thread:
YEG-MSP - 5x weekly
YXE-MSP - 3x weekly

I assume they will use concourse G?

rainaviation2 · Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:01 pm

Antoli0794 wrote:
With the additions of WestJet, does MSP become the gateway to Canada compared to other U.S. hubs?

I don't think I would jump to that conclusion... I think the MSP-Canada market is very important. Pre-covid MSP-YYZ was in the top three intl destinations from MSP, but by no means does this make us THE gateway to Canada.

blockski · Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:22 pm

The US and Canadian markets are so integrated, the idea of a “gateway” to Canada doesn’t even make much sense.

IIRC, the airport with the most seats to and from Canada is LGA. The airports with the most unique destinations are MCO and LAS.

Antoli0794 · Sun Feb 12, 2023 4:21 pm

rainaviation2 wrote:
Antoli0794 wrote:
With the additions of WestJet, does MSP become the gateway to Canada compared to other U.S. hubs?

I don't think I would jump to that conclusion... I think the MSP-Canada market is very important. Pre-covid MSP-YYZ was in the top three intl destinations from MSP, but by no means does this make us THE gateway to Canada.

More so I was referring to Delta.

rainaviation2 · Sun Feb 12, 2023 4:29 pm

Antoli0794 wrote:
rainaviation2 wrote:
Antoli0794 wrote:
With the additions of WestJet, does MSP become the gateway to Canada compared to other U.S. hubs?

I don't think I would jump to that conclusion... I think the MSP-Canada market is very important. Pre-covid MSP-YYZ was in the top three intl destinations from MSP, but by no means does this make us THE gateway to Canada.

More so I was referring to Delta.

Even with the WestJet additions, MSP is only serving six airports in Canada. I suppose this is the most of the DL hubs, but I would not go as far as calling it a gateway still...

azstar · Sun Feb 12, 2023 4:32 pm

Does anyone else think it's weird that SY is promoting bus service from both DLH and FAR to connect with a handful of SY flights? It's a 3 hour trip, once a day from FAR, so it probably won't even connect with many SY flights. Sounds more advantageous to DL and other airlines than SY, specifically.

rainaviation2 · Sun Feb 12, 2023 4:55 pm

azstar wrote:
Does anyone else think it's weird that SY is promoting bus service from both DLH and FAR to connect with a handful of SY flights? It's a 3 hour trip, once a day from FAR, so it probably won't even connect with many SY flights. Sounds more advantageous to DL and other airlines than SY, specifically.

The landline bus service is only available to SY passengers if I am not mistaken... It allows you to check in for your SY flight at FAR or DLH, your luggage is transferred by the SY staff at MSP, and you just go straight to security.

BML87 · Sun Feb 12, 2023 5:01 pm

rainaviation2 wrote:
Antoli0794 wrote:
rainaviation2 wrote:

I don't think I would jump to that conclusion... I think the MSP-Canada market is very important. Pre-covid MSP-YYZ was in the top three intl destinations from MSP, but by no means does this make us THE gateway to Canada.

More so I was referring to Delta.

Even with the WestJet additions, MSP is only serving six airports in Canada. I suppose this is the most of the DL hubs, but I would not go as far as calling it a gateway still...

Minor correction, it's actually 7. YVR, YYC, YEG, YXE, YWG, YYZ, YUL

CIDFlyer · Sun Feb 12, 2023 5:29 pm

Just curious, what is DLs daily count of flights now at MSP?

rainaviation2 · Sun Feb 12, 2023 5:42 pm

CIDFlyer wrote:
Just curious, what is DLs daily count of flights now at MSP?

Just based off the DEC 2022 operations report from the MAC, delta averaged 320 daily operations in that month.

usflyer msp · Sun Feb 12, 2023 7:47 pm

rainaviation2 wrote:
azstar wrote:
Does anyone else think it's weird that SY is promoting bus service from both DLH and FAR to connect with a handful of SY flights? It's a 3 hour trip, once a day from FAR, so it probably won't even connect with many SY flights. Sounds more advantageous to DL and other airlines than SY, specifically.

The landline bus service is only available to SY passengers if I am not mistaken... It allows you to check in for your SY flight at FAR or DLH, your luggage is transferred by the SY staff at MSP, and you just go straight to security.

You can book the Landline buses alone on landline.com, that is the big difference between their SY and UA/AA ops.

usflyer msp · Sun Feb 12, 2023 7:49 pm

BML87 wrote:
rainaviation2 wrote:
Antoli0794 wrote:

More so I was referring to Delta.

Even with the WestJet additions, MSP is only serving six airports in Canada. I suppose this is the most of the DL hubs, but I would not go as far as calling it a gateway still...

Minor correction, it's actually 7. YVR, YYC, YEG, YXE, YWG, YYZ, YUL

If this goes well, I would expect YQR and YQT to return as well.

SESGDL · Sun Feb 12, 2023 9:07 pm

rainaviation2 wrote:
CIDFlyer wrote:
Just curious, what is DLs daily count of flights now at MSP?

Just based off the DEC 2022 operations report from the MAC, delta averaged 320 daily operations in that month.

Which coincidentally is the same number of departures that are scheduled at peak in July 2023 (albeit with a higher proportion of mainline flights).

Jeremy

rajincajun01 · Sun Feb 12, 2023 11:57 pm

azstar wrote:
Does anyone else think it's weird that SY is promoting bus service from both DLH and FAR to connect with a handful of SY flights? It's a 3 hour trip, once a day from FAR, so it probably won't even connect with many SY flights. Sounds more advantageous to DL and other airlines than SY, specifically.

It’s a lot more than just “a handful” of flights. It meets the afternoon bank out and the midday bank into MSP, which means it hits most of SY/FAR’s key markets on peak travel days, including LAS, MCO, PHX, RSW, SFO, and TPA.

rainaviation2 · Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:22 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
rainaviation2 wrote:
azstar wrote:
Does anyone else think it's weird that SY is promoting bus service from both DLH and FAR to connect with a handful of SY flights? It's a 3 hour trip, once a day from FAR, so it probably won't even connect with many SY flights. Sounds more advantageous to DL and other airlines than SY, specifically.

The landline bus service is only available to SY passengers if I am not mistaken... It allows you to check in for your SY flight at FAR or DLH, your luggage is transferred by the SY staff at MSP, and you just go straight to security.

You can book the Landline buses alone on landline.com, that is the big difference between their SY and UA/AA ops.

Ah! Thanks for the clarification...

rainaviation2 · Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:01 am

Some food for thought:

In 2017, MSP was the 4th busiest destination from YEG with almost 100,000 annual pax.

With the addition of YXE-MSP, MSP will be the only Delta hub with access to YXE.

Delta and WestJet knew exactly what they were doing when they made these additions. Good to see some love from across the border post-COVID!

Antoli0794 · Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:24 am

YQR will be the missing link remaining pre covid.

usflyer msp · Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:36 am

rainaviation2 wrote:
Some food for thought:

In 2017, MSP was the 4th busiest destination from YEG with almost 100,000 annual pax.

With the addition of YXE-MSP, MSP will be the only Delta hub with access to YXE.

Delta and WestJet knew exactly what they were doing when they made these additions. Good to see some love from across the border post-COVID!

MSP will actually be the only US hub on any carrier with service to YXE. MSP-YXE historically did pretty well - sometimes it would be a 757 during hunting season.

WS will have to use Concourse G as YXE does not have preclearance.

rainaviation2 · Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:52 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
rainaviation2 wrote:
Some food for thought:

In 2017, MSP was the 4th busiest destination from YEG with almost 100,000 annual pax.

With the addition of YXE-MSP, MSP will be the only Delta hub with access to YXE.

Delta and WestJet knew exactly what they were doing when they made these additions. Good to see some love from across the border post-COVID!

MSP will actually be the only US hub on any carrier with service to YXE. MSP-YXE historically did pretty well - sometimes it would be a 757 during hunting season.

WS will have to use Concourse G as YXE does not have preclearance.

Concourse G is going to be a MESS this summer with the amount of intl routes returning or increasing capacity on.

bomber996 · Wed Feb 22, 2023 3:22 pm

As of 9am local on 2/22 MSP is landing and departing runway 4. Very unusual configuration. TAF shows strong northeast winds for the entirety of the forecast. Should be interesting to see how long they maintain landing on 4 without an ILS. I would assume landing on 35 will be coming soon once visibility drops.

Peace :box:

bomber996 · Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:36 pm

There's going to be some interesting configurations the next two summers. Summer 2023 the north parallel will close and summer 2024 the south parallel will close for maintenance.

https://metroairports.org/documents/age ... 3LZwL1gi6H

Peace :box:

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