Welcome to the Japan Aviation thread for 2023.

Please continue to post your news and discussion below

ANA and JAL seek to redouble green efforts in 2023 such as the use of SAF on domestic services, improved maintenance practices such as installing "sharkskin" film that improves a plane's aerodynamics, and offering various emissions offsets for customers.



https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Envir ... ht-options

Is there a reason why JAL is leaving lucrative markets out of its route map? I can't even see them making an attempt for certain destinations in the USA and India while ANA has a bigger presence in compared to JAL.

Some destinations in mind:

1. WAS - How is it that the Washington Area where AA is the biggest in the DC Metro area does not have a JAL flight? Especially with the extended silver line to Dulles open that should prompt JAL to provide a connection. Most ANA passengers connect and HND and NRT to the Philippines and Vietnam so I don't understand why JAL can't jump in and steal some of that traffic

2. MIA - A oneworld behemoth this should ideally see a JAL service but none available. Kinda surprising given how many Japanese tourists visit FL

3. BOM - Given how QR and AA have partnered with IndiGo and Vistara (UK) is set to go after the Air India merger, JAL has a great opportunity to deploy a route to Mumbai and feed into India using IndiGo as a partner but no idea why they are not attempting to launch a route there. Sure they have DEL and BLR but BLR is tech and VFR only while BOM has more than that

SkyEye350 wrote:

Is there a reason why JAL is leaving lucrative markets out of its route map? I can't even see them making an attempt for certain destinations in the USA and India while ANA has a bigger presence in compared to JAL.

Some destinations in mind:

1. WAS - How is it that the Washington Area where AA is the biggest in the DC Metro area does not have a JAL flight? Especially with the extended silver line to Dulles open that should prompt JAL to provide a connection. Most ANA passengers connect and HND and NRT to the Philippines and Vietnam so I don't understand why JAL can't jump in and steal some of that traffic

2. MIA - A oneworld behemoth this should ideally see a JAL service but none available. Kinda surprising given how many Japanese tourists visit FL

3. BOM - Given how QR and AA have partnered with IndiGo and Vistara (UK) is set to go after the Air India merger, JAL has a great opportunity to deploy a route to Mumbai and feed into India using IndiGo as a partner but no idea why they are not attempting to launch a route there. Sure they have DEL and BLR but BLR is tech and VFR only while BOM has more than that

Based on my observation:

1 AA is the largest, but the hub is located at National Reagan, where long haul flights are banned. It seems unlikely especially pax don't like switching airports when connecting flights.

2 MIA is just too far, they already got good coverage through Dallas, Chicago and New York.

Sent from my RMX2030 using Tapatalk

IAD can be served though, many OW airlines have no problem flying out of there despite AA at DCA. it's not about connections on the Washington end but rather how Washington has enough pull to Tokyo and many SE Asian destinations that JAL connect onto

I don't recall JAL ever serving Washington. Its been a ANA destination (its second one in the US) since mid 1980s.

Lets also remember JAL today is a smaller airline following its 2010 bankruptcy, and now even smaller post pandemic.

Not sure they will chase after new markets, instead probably work to rebuild the network slowly. Also for Miami, it would be quite a flight with 7,500mi/12,000km in distance.

Per JAL 2022-2025 business plan they called for a "gradual rebuilding" of their international network, while expecting to see a 90% recovery in their domestic business.

They also called out new consumer behavior and remote work adoption plus global consumer and corporate ESG that would drive strategy.

Much of the JAL Group growth will not be at full-service JAL, but instead at its LCC brands (Jetstar/Spring/Zip) and they forecast the LCC brands will generate more revenue by 2025 then JAL mainline, and have double the profitability margin (16% EBIT vs 8 for mainline).

I doubt we will see the JAL international network growing too much in the future.

SkyEye350 wrote:

Is there a reason why JAL is leaving lucrative markets out of its route map? I can't even see them making an attempt for certain destinations in the USA and India while ANA has a bigger presence in compared to JAL.

Some destinations in mind:

3. BOM - Given how QR and AA have partnered with IndiGo and Vistara (UK) is set to go after the Air India merger, JAL has a great opportunity to deploy a route to Mumbai and feed into India using IndiGo as a partner but no idea why they are not attempting to launch a route there. Sure they have DEL and BLR but BLR is tech and VFR only while BOM has more than that

Before covid, JAL served BLR while ANA served MAA and BOM. Both, along with AI, served DEL. While NRT-BOM/BLR have resumed NRT-MAA is still suspended. I guess JAL doesn't want to compete with ANA to BOM?

When I was spotting in HND in early December, I was surprised just how active and busy the JAL A350's are on those domestic runs. Clearly they are performing well on what seems to me punishing useage. Are they performing well from a technical viewpoint too ?

When will ANA come back to Munich, Vienna and Düsseldorf, half their European network is still inactive.

mercure1 wrote:

ANA and JAL seek to redouble green efforts in 2023 such as the use of SAF on domestic services, improved maintenance practices such as installing "sharkskin" film that improves a plane's aerodynamics, and offering various emissions offsets for customers.



https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Envir ... ht-options

Looking this image and ask how is the purpose of Air Japan within ANA Holdings today? Is it to low the wages and cost? A charter company?

ANA is big in Washington because that and LAX were their two first US routes in 1986. JAL did fly to Dulles a few times weekly in the late circa 1990, It didn't last more then two years or so.

mercure1 wrote:

I don't recall JAL ever serving Washington. Its been a ANA destination (its second one in the US) since mid 1980s.

JAL inaugurates NRT-IAD nonstop service 3 per week by 747-400 in March 1991. They closed in 1994.

jfk777 wrote:

ANA is big in Washington because that and LAX were their two first US routes in 1986. JAL did fly to Dulles a few times weekly in the late circa 1990, It didn't last more then two years or so.

JL now has AA's FF base in the DC market due to the AA DCA hub that AA inherited through the AA-US merger to support the return of JL IAD-NRT nonstop service.

Just from my observations on my recent trips to KIX, I didn’t see a single JL or NH plane both on arrival and departure. Is this normal? I was just a little perplex as I thought I would see a few, but I also get it that ITM is the main domestic airport for those airlines.

The only Japanese airline I saw was Peach and the rest were Asian airlines mainly from SE Asia, Korea and Taiwan.

kriskim wrote:

Just from my observations on my recent trips to KIX, I didn’t see a single JL or NH plane both on arrival and departure. Is this normal? I was just a little perplex as I thought I would see a few, but I also get it that ITM is the main domestic airport for those airlines.

The only Japanese airline I saw was Peach and the rest were Asian airlines mainly from SE Asia, Korea and Taiwan.

both JL and NH have a couple of flights per day to HND, CTS and OKA; so it's quite strange that you didn't see any. Also GK is operating to KIX.

LAXintl wrote:

Per JAL 2022-2025 business plan they called for a "gradual rebuilding" of their international network, while expecting to see a 90% recovery in their domestic business.

They also called out new consumer behavior and remote work adoption plus global consumer and corporate ESG that would drive strategy.

Much of the JAL Group growth will not be at full-service JAL, but instead at its LCC brands (Jetstar/Spring/Zip) and they forecast the LCC brands will generate more revenue by 2025 then JAL mainline, and have double the profitability margin (16% EBIT vs 8 for mainline).

I doubt we will see the JAL international network growing too much in the future.

Does anyone know the delivery time frames for Jetstars 321LR I was surprised they went to Jetstar Japan before Jetstar Australia but presume they must have a great need for the capacity and range? Is their a mid term growth plan for Jetstar?

I could argue that TYO is over-served at IAD. Between ANA and UA, there is two to three flights daily (depending on the time of the year). I am partial to ANA 1 and 2 when I fly between the US and Japan, but have taken UA when I have an all Japanese crew.

kriskim wrote:

Just from my observations on my recent trips to KIX, I didn’t see a single JL or NH plane both on arrival and departure. Is this normal? I was just a little perplex as I thought I would see a few, but I also get it that ITM is the main domestic airport for those airlines.

The only Japanese airline I saw was Peach and the rest were Asian airlines mainly from SE Asia, Korea and Taiwan.

ANA, JAL, Jetstar, Starflyer have flights there

stylo777 wrote:

kriskim wrote:

Just from my observations on my recent trips to KIX, I didn’t see a single JL or NH plane both on arrival and departure. Is this normal? I was just a little perplex as I thought I would see a few, but I also get it that ITM is the main domestic airport for those airlines.

The only Japanese airline I saw was Peach and the rest were Asian airlines mainly from SE Asia, Korea and Taiwan.

both JL and NH have a couple of flights per day to HND, CTS and OKA; so it's quite strange that you didn't see any. Also GK is operating to KIX.

Both Japanese carriers now have much smaller international operation in KIX post covid.

JL for example probably only has around 6 international flights in KIX per WEEK right now which is less than 1 per day on average.

Consider how JAL's JV partner AA has stated that they will be handling their 'return' to Asia (and long-haul in general), post-pandemic. This would certainly have an effect on how AA, and by extension JAL expands and to what extent it can, or will - with AA.

Case in point, in the discussion of JAL's services to BLR. AA made headlines in announcing SEA-BLR, and now, particularly due to both Covid and/or Russian Overflight Issues, to have to shelve those plans for now. As AA's major partner in this realm, many of those passengers (read 'elites') will have few options, but to have the pleasure of flying with JAL. Japan-BLR would/could then be better served (extra frequencies, and/or better times to connect to AA's {or AS's} services). That's apart from the fact that JAL also has to consider how/where to best use their resources at Zipair.

So, do I see JAL choosing to expand, but to a greater extent within their home ranges and/or Asian theaters, at/with the help of AA working towards maximization of flows of passengers connecting with AA. For this reason, expansions would likely favor U.S. West Coast destinations (particularly for Zipair), and/or unlocking greater partnerships with AS and/or with the benefits of AA's partnership. Upgrading/upgaguing/returning to past strengths at current AA hubs (such as JFK, ORD, DFW) would likely be low-hanging fruits, knowing that AA is not likely to be able to (due to long-haul aircraft and crew shortages). If JAL were to want to expand onto other AA hubs (such as CLT, PHL, and PHX) are likely a little harder to move onto in that these were one Star Alliance hubs (thanks to US) and while can/should be prioritized, can also be served by Zipair to supplement where/when the higher yields may not be able to produce the support necessary what the JAL brand/services require (at least, initially). Could JAL (or Zipair) work at AUS and/or particularly less-than-daily?

The addition of AS to OneWorld bring SEA into potentially greater folds of where and how JAL (and Zipair) expand, and could assist with greater cargo services to assist with profitability. Interestingly, between new carriers at ANC (Northern Pacific, and their proposed business strategy) and AS's assistance - JAL (and/or particularly Zipair) could resume services here with relative ease and/or in a competitively sound move, but with much greater support.

While SFO being a hub for AS could be expanded further, I do wonder how/where potentially serving SJC (and/or once again, particularly with Zipair) would affect yields. It's an interesting market (in the far past {prior to JAL's JV partnership} being served by AA), caters to a specific high yielding P.O.S.(particularly tech.), and has yet to see the return of any competition (particularly on the Japanese end). If the route can be expanded, should it be solely on Zipair, or, could JAL 'mainline' services also work here? As is, without AS, SJC-Japan-BLR would be a decent run whose expansion would further limit the needs for AA to expand on any -BLR non-stops.

Speaking of connecting to OneWorld hubs, I am surprised that JAL (and/or Zipair) have not factored into services to CMB. Despite the current financial crisis in the nation, less-than-daily services and/or lower costing services would provide decent cargo operations and/or assist with passenger flows to not only Sri Lanka, but notably tie into UL's services to South India (if JAL was lacking in an Indian partner). As investment and conditions improve, India could be served better - however without a partner, expansion here would be almost entirely on their own. Zipair's strategy could be used on cities such as MAA, HYD, COK, CCU, and/or CJB with the potential to connect (via Japan) to AA's hubs in the U.S., as AA limits their expansion to the region. As is, OneWorld elites would require double connections to arrive to some of these cities and the lower costs of Zipair's operations could make these cities work in ways that AA (and/or perhaps JAL) cannot. As Japan opens further, and the Russian Overflight restriction remain - many of the U.S. to India services can work well, particularly so if the cost is right (and with the added benefit of handling decent cargo on those same aircraft). The growing AI and lack of dedicated Indian cargo carriers highlights that not everyone would need to be served via the Gulf (QR and/or EK) and could be decently attractive with a Japanese stop (now past Covid restrictions).

Past AA's needs/assistance:
Could Zipair and/or JAL better serve Australia? Resuming BNE, CNS and PER would make sense, and/or JAL would be in the running here, however if the markets cannot support the full service carrier - would Zipair be better here? MEL would be decently added to, particularly with QF's assistance.
Less than daily services to NAN could assist FJ and/or be a decent resumption, with a potentially better product (JAL vs Zipair).
Let's see how/where viability returns to Spain. MAD provides the fortress hub for IB and would be a decent resumption (and with IB's potential purchase of UX) could place JAL and/or Zipair with a compelling product to work with on the route (past the obvious Russian overflight issues). A 'dark horse', particularly geared towards Zipair would then be to BCN (with Level, and/or Vueling's assistance).

What is the status of US pre-clearance at NRT?

For some Japan-US routes are still up in air and don't know when or if it will be resumed. Like following:

UA:
HNL-NRT
IAD-NRT/NND

DL:
PDX-HND
HNL-HND

NH:
SJC-HND

HA:
KOA-HND

Even though DFW is a hub for JL's partner AA, I previously mentioned the possibility of NH adding TYO-DFW nonstop service with the significant presence that some Japanese companies such as 7 & I Holdings, Canon, Fujitsu, Kawasaki, Kubota, Kyocera, NEC, NTT Data, Panasonic, Tohatsu, and Toyota have in the Dallas/Fort Worth area.

DFW is also already served by UA, AC, LH, TA, and TK in Star Alliance.

Is there enough demand for NH TYO-DFW nonstop service in addition to the existing AA/JL TYO-DFW nonstop service with the significant Japanese business presence that is there in the Dallas/Fort Worth area?

Even with a large japanese presence in Dallas, for ANA IAH fits better for connection and JV with UA.

I am very curious how JL finds operating costs of the A359 vs 787s in their unique domestic network. Anyone have insight?

Do they still plan on shifting the 77Ws to other routes once the A35Ks start to arrive?? Read they wanted to retain them

LondonXtreme wrote:

For some Japan-US routes are still up in air and don't know when or if it will be resumed. Like following:

UA:
HNL-NRT
IAD-NRT/NND

DL:
PDX-HND
HNL-HND

NH:
SJC-HND

HA:
KOA-HND

Current plans are:

UA:
IAD - 25 March 2023 (first flight to HND)
HNL - 25 March 2023 (first flight to HND)

DL:
HNL - 8 March 2023 (first flight to HND)
PDX - 25 March 2023 (first flight to HND)
MSP - 25 March 2023 (resuming service)

NH:
SJC - cancelled

HA:
KOA - 12 March 2023 (resuming service)

AA:
DFW - 26 March 2023 (first flight to HND)

Fuling wrote:

LondonXtreme wrote:

For some Japan-US routes are still up in air and don't know when or if it will be resumed. Like following:


UA:
IAD - 25 March 2023 (first flight to HND)
HNL - 25 March 2023 (first flight to HND)

HNL-HND for UA? I think UA only have HND slots for SFO, LAX, EWR, IAD and ORD. They used to prioritise IAH-HND ahead of HNL-HND, but didn't get for both.

LondonXtreme wrote:

Fuling wrote:

LondonXtreme wrote:

For some Japan-US routes are still up in air and don't know when or if it will be resumed. Like following:


UA:
IAD - 25 March 2023 (first flight to HND)
HNL - 25 March 2023 (first flight to HND)

HNL-HND for UA? I think UA only have HND slots for SFO, LAX, EWR, IAD and ORD. They used to prioritise IAH-HND ahead of HNL-HND, but didn't get for both.

That's right sorry, UA is HNL-NRT still. It was DL going HNL-HND.

Fuling wrote:

LondonXtreme wrote:

For some Japan-US routes are still up in air and don't know when or if it will be resumed. Like following:

UA:
HNL-NRT
IAD-NRT/NND

DL:
PDX-HND
HNL-HND

NH:
SJC-HND

HA:
KOA-HND

Current plans are:

UA:
IAD - 25 March 2023 (first flight to HND)
HNL - 25 March 2023 (first flight to HND)

DL:
HNL - 8 March 2023 (first flight to HND)
PDX - 25 March 2023 (first flight to HND)
MSP - 25 March 2023 (resuming service)

NH:
SJC - cancelled

HA:
KOA - 12 March 2023 (resuming service)

AA:
DFW - 26 March 2023 (first flight to HND)

Yes, if you go to Delta.com it shows both PDX-HND and PDX-ICN starting on March 25. There i something that strikes me as odd about the ability to book. Take a look at the fares. PDX-HND main cabin non-stop is $5600. PDX-HND via SEA is $1921. PDX-HND premium select non-stop is $6250. PDX-HND via SEA is $3121. PDX-HND non-stop Delta One is $13453 PDX-HND via SEA is $7882. It is as if Delta is actively trying to get people NOT to buy the vastly more expensive seats for the non-stop flight. Also, when they first planned to switch from NRT to HND they had added flights LAS-PDX to provide extra feed. They have not done that this time.
The same thing exists much the same for PDX-ICN. The non-stop fares are higher than flying via SEA although not as extreme as the PDX-HND fare difference. Also, in the case of PDX-ICN they do not show one-stop connections to points beyond ICN with their partner KoreanAir. For example if you pull up PDX-SIN it will only offer a 2 stop connection via SEA and ICN when the
non-stop PDX-ICN easily connects to the ICN-SIN flight. Does that make sense to anyone?

skyflyer777 wrote:

Fuling wrote:

LondonXtreme wrote:

For some Japan-US routes are still up in air and don't know when or if it will be resumed. Like following:

UA:
HNL-NRT
IAD-NRT/NND

DL:
PDX-HND
HNL-HND

NH:
SJC-HND

HA:
KOA-HND

Current plans are:

UA:
IAD - 25 March 2023 (first flight to HND)
HNL - 25 March 2023 (first flight to HND)

DL:
HNL - 8 March 2023 (first flight to HND)
PDX - 25 March 2023 (first flight to HND)
MSP - 25 March 2023 (resuming service)

NH:
SJC - cancelled

HA:
KOA - 12 March 2023 (resuming service)

AA:
DFW - 26 March 2023 (first flight to HND)

Yes, if you go to Delta.com it shows both PDX-HND and PDX-ICN starting on March 25. There i something that strikes me as odd about the ability to book. Take a look at the fares. PDX-HND main cabin non-stop is $5600. PDX-HND via SEA is $1921. PDX-HND premium select non-stop is $6250. PDX-HND via SEA is $3121. PDX-HND non-stop Delta One is $13453 PDX-HND via SEA is $7882. It is as if Delta is actively trying to get people NOT to buy the vastly more expensive seats for the non-stop flight. Also, when they first planned to switch from NRT to HND they had added flights LAS-PDX to provide extra feed. They have not done that this time.
The same thing exists much the same for PDX-ICN. The non-stop fares are higher than flying via SEA although not as extreme as the PDX-HND fare difference. Also, in the case of PDX-ICN they do not show one-stop connections to points beyond ICN with their partner KoreanAir. For example if you pull up PDX-SIN it will only offer a 2 stop connection via SEA and ICN when the
non-stop PDX-ICN easily connects to the ICN-SIN flight. Does that make sense to anyone?

In regards to PDX-HND, I asked the same thing in the Delta Network thread and no one seems to know.

Historically, when fares are limited to full price Y/J that meant the route was about to be cut. Schedule update Saturday came and went without any changes, so who knows.

I’d be really surprised if Delta gave up a Haneda slot that easily.

PoorSailorsAir wrote:

skyflyer777 wrote:

Fuling wrote:

Current plans are:

UA:
IAD - 25 March 2023 (first flight to HND)
HNL - 25 March 2023 (first flight to HND)

DL:
HNL - 8 March 2023 (first flight to HND)
PDX - 25 March 2023 (first flight to HND)
MSP - 25 March 2023 (resuming service)

NH:
SJC - cancelled

HA:
KOA - 12 March 2023 (resuming service)

AA:
DFW - 26 March 2023 (first flight to HND)

Yes, if you go to Delta.com it shows both PDX-HND and PDX-ICN starting on March 25. There i something that strikes me as odd about the ability to book. Take a look at the fares. PDX-HND main cabin non-stop is $5600. PDX-HND via SEA is $1921. PDX-HND premium select non-stop is $6250. PDX-HND via SEA is $3121. PDX-HND non-stop Delta One is $13453 PDX-HND via SEA is $7882. It is as if Delta is actively trying to get people NOT to buy the vastly more expensive seats for the non-stop flight. Also, when they first planned to switch from NRT to HND they had added flights LAS-PDX to provide extra feed. They have not done that this time.
The same thing exists much the same for PDX-ICN. The non-stop fares are higher than flying via SEA although not as extreme as the PDX-HND fare difference. Also, in the case of PDX-ICN they do not show one-stop connections to points beyond ICN with their partner KoreanAir. For example if you pull up PDX-SIN it will only offer a 2 stop connection via SEA and ICN when the
non-stop PDX-ICN easily connects to the ICN-SIN flight. Does that make sense to anyone?

In regards to PDX-HND, I asked the same thing in the Delta Network thread and no one seems to know.

Historically, when fares are limited to full price Y/J that meant the route was about to be cut. Schedule update Saturday came and went without any changes, so who knows.

I’d be really surprised if Delta gave up a Haneda slot that easily.

PDX-HND has been pushed back a lot over the past few months. I have someone booked on the inaugural PDX-HND (25 March) and when I booked the tickets a month ago, fares were definitely not full fare. It's interesting the mention of full fares due to imminent route cut/postponement, sounds like some changes might be happening soon to that flight and will need to rebook them via SEA or LAX.

I had recently mentioned the possibility of JL entering into a codeshare with EI in Europe with
(a) JL already partnering with IAG airlines BA and IB,
(b) there being some business travel to Ireland by Japanese global companies, and
(c) there being some business travel to Japan by Irish global companies.

If JL does enter into a codeshare agreement with EI, JL would likely add its code onto EI's LHR-ORK/DUB/SNN flights and EI would likely add its code onto JL's LHR-HND flights.

There are a few European metropolitan areas similar in size to that of Dublin such as Brussels and Copenhagen that have nonstop service out of Tokyo, but NH's partner SN has a hub at BRU and NH's partner SK has a hub at CPH. ZRH is located in a smaller metropolitan area than BRU/CPH/DUB and has LX nonstop service out of NRT, but ZRH is a hub for NH's partner LX.

There are also more connecting opportunities at BRU/CPH/ZRH from TYO with BRU/CPH/ZRH being located further east than DUB/LHR. BRU/ZRH can also pull in passengers from a much bigger area due to BRU/ZRH being located on the European mainland whereas DUB is located on the island of Ireland.

CPH is located on an island in between the European mainland and Sweden, but CPH has road and rail access to both the European mainland and Sweden.

Is there enough demand to Ireland from Japan to support JL NRT-DUB nonstop service (even if on a less-than-daily basis) with the JL-IAG ties and the global business presence in both Japan and Ireland?

I would have thought a 3-4 a week 789 DUB - NRT flight would do pretty well. Think of all the Guinness in cargo.

PoorSailorsAir wrote:

skyflyer777 wrote:

Fuling wrote:

Current plans are:

UA:
IAD - 25 March 2023 (first flight to HND)
HNL - 25 March 2023 (first flight to HND)

DL:
HNL - 8 March 2023 (first flight to HND)
PDX - 25 March 2023 (first flight to HND)
MSP - 25 March 2023 (resuming service)

NH:
SJC - cancelled

HA:
KOA - 12 March 2023 (resuming service)

AA:
DFW - 26 March 2023 (first flight to HND)

Yes, if you go to Delta.com it shows both PDX-HND and PDX-ICN starting on March 25. There i something that strikes me as odd about the ability to book. Take a look at the fares. PDX-HND main cabin non-stop is $5600. PDX-HND via SEA is $1921. PDX-HND premium select non-stop is $6250. PDX-HND via SEA is $3121. PDX-HND non-stop Delta One is $13453 PDX-HND via SEA is $7882. It is as if Delta is actively trying to get people NOT to buy the vastly more expensive seats for the non-stop flight. Also, when they first planned to switch from NRT to HND they had added flights LAS-PDX to provide extra feed. They have not done that this time.
The same thing exists much the same for PDX-ICN. The non-stop fares are higher than flying via SEA although not as extreme as the PDX-HND fare difference. Also, in the case of PDX-ICN they do not show one-stop connections to points beyond ICN with their partner KoreanAir. For example if you pull up PDX-SIN it will only offer a 2 stop connection via SEA and ICN when the
non-stop PDX-ICN easily connects to the ICN-SIN flight. Does that make sense to anyone?

In regards to PDX-HND, I asked the same thing in the Delta Network thread and no one seems to know.

Historically, when fares are limited to full price Y/J that meant the route was about to be cut. Schedule update Saturday came and went without any changes, so who knows.

I’d be really surprised if Delta gave up a Haneda slot that easily.

Would they give up the slot or add frequency from LAX, SEA, or launch some other route (Boston or JFK perhaps)? Like you said, I can't imagine Delta would give up a HND slot ever. United would eat it up in an instant.

Lamp1009 wrote:

PoorSailorsAir wrote:

skyflyer777 wrote:

Yes, if you go to Delta.com it shows both PDX-HND and PDX-ICN starting on March 25. There i something that strikes me as odd about the ability to book. Take a look at the fares. PDX-HND main cabin non-stop is $5600. PDX-HND via SEA is $1921. PDX-HND premium select non-stop is $6250. PDX-HND via SEA is $3121. PDX-HND non-stop Delta One is $13453 PDX-HND via SEA is $7882. It is as if Delta is actively trying to get people NOT to buy the vastly more expensive seats for the non-stop flight. Also, when they first planned to switch from NRT to HND they had added flights LAS-PDX to provide extra feed. They have not done that this time.
The same thing exists much the same for PDX-ICN. The non-stop fares are higher than flying via SEA although not as extreme as the PDX-HND fare difference. Also, in the case of PDX-ICN they do not show one-stop connections to points beyond ICN with their partner KoreanAir. For example if you pull up PDX-SIN it will only offer a 2 stop connection via SEA and ICN when the
non-stop PDX-ICN easily connects to the ICN-SIN flight. Does that make sense to anyone?

In regards to PDX-HND, I asked the same thing in the Delta Network thread and no one seems to know.

Historically, when fares are limited to full price Y/J that meant the route was about to be cut. Schedule update Saturday came and went without any changes, so who knows.

I’d be really surprised if Delta gave up a Haneda slot that easily.

Would they give up the slot or add frequency from LAX, SEA, or launch some other route (Boston or JFK perhaps)? Like you said, I can't imagine Delta would give up a HND slot ever. United would eat it up in an instant.

DL can’t simply allocate the slot to another route. The HND slot is specifically for PDX and was agreed upon in DL’s application. It’s a use it or lose it scenario. If DL decides to not use the slot, the slot goes back for rebid amongst all the airlines. DL would be crazy to give up a HND slot. And also it would surely invite JAL or ANA into the PDX-Asia market. They’d throw away a lot.

Here’s what could possibly be happening with this route… My bet is that DL is requesting another deferred start date on its PDX-HND route…possibly to Summer 2023, and the Japanese civil aviation authority is taking its sweet time to get back at DL with an answer. In the meantime DL is limiting its seats on this route for now.

With WS adding YYC-NRT, one wonders why NH and JL is underserved when it comes to a NRT/HND-YYZ service. Why give 100% of the market share to only AC?

YYZORD wrote:

With WS adding YYC-NRT, one wonders why NH and JL is underserved when it comes to a NRT/HND-YYZ service. Why give 100% of the market share to only AC?

There isn't that much demand, especially rn. Just booked YYZ-HND on a 787-8. This was a 777W route pre-pandemic (AC's 777Ws are insanely dense too). NRT isn't doing much better, with a -9 on that route.

NH also has a JV with AC so their metal is better used elsewhere, especially since YUL and YYZ are AC strongholds.

With regards to JL, I believe they seasonally served YYZ with a 787, but again, lack of demand is probably the cause of the holdout there.

Does anyone know if ANA propose to reintroduce the 'Experience Japan' fare for foreign tourists on domestic routes any time soon? It seems that sales of these tickets are currently suspended, with no indication on when they may be reintroduced.

I note that JAL appears to be selling the 'Japan Explorer Pass', but nothing from ANA which seems odd.

lightmac wrote:

When will ANA come back to Munich, Vienna and Düsseldorf, half their European network is still inactive.

Düsseldorf Airport's CEO recently gave an interview in which he stated that he doesn't expect ANA to return to Düsseldorf as long as they can't use Russian airspace. It just doesn't seem profitiable at the moment, especially considering the proximity to Frankfurt Airport.
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/reden-sehr-intensiv-mit-amerikanischen-fluggesellschaften

BritishB747 wrote:

Does anyone know if ANA propose to reintroduce the 'Experience Japan' fare for foreign tourists on domestic routes any time soon? It seems that sales of these tickets are currently suspended, with no indication on when they may be reintroduced.

I note that JAL appears to be selling the 'Japan Explorer Pass', but nothing from ANA which seems odd.

I didn't even know this exists and the prices are pretty good, too (taxes included!).
On the other hand and exclusively for foreigners, there is still the competition with Japan Rail Pass.

Lamp1009 wrote:

YYZORD wrote:

With WS adding YYC-NRT, one wonders why NH and JL is underserved when it comes to a NRT/HND-YYZ service. Why give 100% of the market share to only AC?

There isn't that much demand, especially rn. Just booked YYZ-HND on a 787-8. This was a 777W route pre-pandemic (AC's 777Ws are insanely dense too). NRT isn't doing much better, with a -9 on that route.

NH also has a JV with AC so their metal is better used elsewhere, especially since YUL and YYZ are AC strongholds.

With regards to JL, I believe they seasonally served YYZ with a 787, but again, lack of demand is probably the cause of the holdout there.

I don’t think AC/NH have a JV. It is just codeshares. There was talk of AC joining the NH/UA JV, but it never materialized.

stylo777 wrote:

BritishB747 wrote:

Does anyone know if ANA propose to reintroduce the 'Experience Japan' fare for foreign tourists on domestic routes any time soon? It seems that sales of these tickets are currently suspended, with no indication on when they may be reintroduced.

I note that JAL appears to be selling the 'Japan Explorer Pass', but nothing from ANA which seems odd.

I didn't even know this exists and the prices are pretty good, too (taxes included!).
On the other hand and exclusively for foreigners, there is still the competition with Japan Rail Pass.

I actually used the JAL special fare between Tokyo and Sapporo before (this was 2019 before the pandemic). Cheaper than even LCC. And I paid only additional 1000yen (something like USD10 back then) to upgrade to "Class J", which for the NRT-CTS flight is international business class with lie-flat seats, albeit it was on a 738 and it was only a little bit over 1 hour .

IMHO it doesn't really "compete" with Japan Rail Pass - which most people used to go between Tokyo and Kyoto/Osaka anyway (b/c a round trip on Shinkansen alone already cost more than a 7-day pass).

zakuivcustom wrote:

stylo777 wrote:

BritishB747 wrote:

Does anyone know if ANA propose to reintroduce the 'Experience Japan' fare for foreign tourists on domestic routes any time soon? It seems that sales of these tickets are currently suspended, with no indication on when they may be reintroduced.

I note that JAL appears to be selling the 'Japan Explorer Pass', but nothing from ANA which seems odd.

I didn't even know this exists and the prices are pretty good, too (taxes included!).
On the other hand and exclusively for foreigners, there is still the competition with Japan Rail Pass.

I actually used the JAL special fare between Tokyo and Sapporo before (this was 2019 before the pandemic). Cheaper than even LCC. And I paid only additional 1000yen (something like USD10 back then) to upgrade to "Class J", which for the NRT-CTS flight is international business class with lie-flat seats, albeit it was on a 738 and it was only a little bit over 1 hour .

IMHO it doesn't really "compete" with Japan Rail Pass - which most people used to go between Tokyo and Kyoto/Osaka anyway (b/c a round trip on Shinkansen alone already cost more than a 7-day pass).

The prices are very good in my opinion! A fair deal to help people get around the country.

I agree that most tourists on the shorter journeys will probably opt to travel by train. However, the enthusiast in me is keen to get some widebodies ticked off on short-haul routes! I was hoping to get a few 777-200/200ERs with ANA on their tourist fare but they seem to have suspended the fare. I am in Japan in May/June so hopefully it may be reinstated by then.

Interesting point on the cheap upgrades. I must see if that is still the case when I am there if I am flying with JAL. A nice treat, even if it is just for an hour!

BritishB747 wrote:

zakuivcustom wrote:

stylo777 wrote:

I didn't even know this exists and the prices are pretty good, too (taxes included!).
On the other hand and exclusively for foreigners, there is still the competition with Japan Rail Pass.

I actually used the JAL special fare between Tokyo and Sapporo before (this was 2019 before the pandemic). Cheaper than even LCC. And I paid only additional 1000yen (something like USD10 back then) to upgrade to "Class J", which for the NRT-CTS flight is international business class with lie-flat seats, albeit it was on a 738 and it was only a little bit over 1 hour .

IMHO it doesn't really "compete" with Japan Rail Pass - which most people used to go between Tokyo and Kyoto/Osaka anyway (b/c a round trip on Shinkansen alone already cost more than a 7-day pass).

The prices are very good in my opinion! A fair deal to help people get around the country.

I agree that most tourists on the shorter journeys will probably opt to travel by train. However, the enthusiast in me is keen to get some widebodies ticked off on short-haul routes! I was hoping to get a few 777-200/200ERs with ANA on their tourist fare but they seem to have suspended the fare. I am in Japan in May/June so hopefully it may be reinstated by then.

Interesting point on the cheap upgrades. I must see if that is still the case when I am there if I am flying with JAL. A nice treat, even if it is just for an hour!

The "Class J" upgrade is first come first serve at the airport IIRC - it doesn't hurt to ask but availability is not high AFAIK.

Normal "Class J" is more like economy plus in general with a slightly wider seat and more leg room - sufficient for a flight <2 hours. JAL used to fly international planes on those domestic connection flight out of NRT - not sure if they still do so now, though.

JAL announced the retirement of its 777-200/ER fleets by September 2023 ending 27 year history with the model.

https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/4eab8 ... 74c5a1ad72

What are they going to replace the 772s? They don’t have any near term deliveries of 787s except one 788 going to Zipair. They have some A350-1000s coming to replace the 77Ws starting this spring. It is possible that a few 77Ws get the high-density treatment or they just downsize to 763s?

Airlines for America reported that travel to Japan and china is currently down 88% from 2019. It does not expect improve until after march. Slots that are dormant are an issue for the second quarter

Carpethead wrote:

What are they going to replace the 772s? They don’t have any near term deliveries of 787s except one 788 going to Zipair. They have some A350-1000s coming to replace the 77Ws starting this spring. It is possible that a few 77Ws get the high-density treatment or they just downsize to 763s?

The 777-200 have been exclusively flying domestic and have been replaced slowly by the A350-900.