When is it reasonable to think UA will add more flights to China?

This article from a few weeks ago says UA wants to add more flights but can't because the governments essentially need to approve them: https://simpleflying.com/united-wants-t ... -to-china/

If the Chinese airlines are getting more flights to the US, why aren't the US airlines getting more flights to China? Right now UA is only operating SFO-HKG and SFO-PVG but the loads are basically full every day.

Air China will be relaunching flights between Beijing and Barcelona in the month of June, Spanish media is reporting. Apparently the airline has recently reopened its offices in BCN in preparation for the relaunch, but no flights on sale yet.

I hope to see CA returning PEK-MAD-GRU.

The international market in China is still very slow to recover. It will take years at this rate for all international routes suspended as a result of the pandemic to be resumed.

There is still a large portion of international routes by Air China, China Eastern, and China Southern that haven't been resumed yet. I wonder if certain international routes will be permanently cut and not relaunched.

Air China plans to resume longhaul operations with its 747-8 fleet.
First route is Frankfurt starting in May.

CA965 PEK-FRA 0230-0650 MoWeSa
CA966 FRA-PEK 1355-0515+1 MoWeSa

LAXPolaris wrote:

When is it reasonable to think UA will add more flights to China?

This article from a few weeks ago says UA wants to add more flights but can't because the governments essentially need to approve them: https://simpleflying.com/united-wants-t ... -to-china/

If the Chinese airlines are getting more flights to the US, why aren't the US airlines getting more flights to China? Right now UA is only operating SFO-HKG and SFO-PVG but the loads are basically full every day.

Chinese airlines are not getting additional flights to the US--that's the problem.

Last month, China allowed Delta and AA to double their China flights to 4x weekly instead of 2x, making it a total of 12x weekly (UA was already at 4x) US-China flights from US airlines. However, the US DOT did not reciprocate and did not approve requests from CA CZ MU and MF to increase their frequencies from 2x to 3x weekly (which would have added up to 12x). So CAAC is bringing DL and AA back down to 2x weekly starting in May.

Passed through PEK today China airlines B-7877 (IIRC) looks pretty sad, it’s Parked up by terminal 2, engineless and cockpit covered up. Looks like it’s not flown since around 25th March when it’s flight got cancelled! Sadly only got a crappy picture on the phone


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BoatStuck wrote:

LAXPolaris wrote:

When is it reasonable to think UA will add more flights to China?

This article from a few weeks ago says UA wants to add more flights but can't because the governments essentially need to approve them: https://simpleflying.com/united-wants-t ... -to-china/

If the Chinese airlines are getting more flights to the US, why aren't the US airlines getting more flights to China? Right now UA is only operating SFO-HKG and SFO-PVG but the loads are basically full every day.

Chinese airlines are not getting additional flights to the US--that's the problem.

Last month, China allowed Delta and AA to double their China flights to 4x weekly instead of 2x, making it a total of 12x weekly (UA was already at 4x) US-China flights from US airlines. However, the US DOT did not reciprocate and did not approve requests from CA CZ MU and MF to increase their frequencies from 2x to 3x weekly (which would have added up to 12x). So CAAC is bringing DL and AA back down to 2x weekly starting in May.

So I’m all for US & China being equal in number of flights (only fair) but why would the US not increase flights to the level China was willing to. Seems strange. Also anyone know if the lack of nonstop flights to China has been a boon to one stop via Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, etc? Or is US - China traffic just way down?

CaliguyNYC wrote:

BoatStuck wrote:

LAXPolaris wrote:

When is it reasonable to think UA will add more flights to China?

This article from a few weeks ago says UA wants to add more flights but can't because the governments essentially need to approve them: https://simpleflying.com/united-wants-t ... -to-china/

If the Chinese airlines are getting more flights to the US, why aren't the US airlines getting more flights to China? Right now UA is only operating SFO-HKG and SFO-PVG but the loads are basically full every day.

Chinese airlines are not getting additional flights to the US--that's the problem.

Last month, China allowed Delta and AA to double their China flights to 4x weekly instead of 2x, making it a total of 12x weekly (UA was already at 4x) US-China flights from US airlines. However, the US DOT did not reciprocate and did not approve requests from CA CZ MU and MF to increase their frequencies from 2x to 3x weekly (which would have added up to 12x). So CAAC is bringing DL and AA back down to 2x weekly starting in May.

So I’m all for US & China being equal in number of flights (only fair) but why would the US not increase flights to the level China was willing to. Seems strange. Also anyone know if the lack of nonstop flights to China has been a boon to one stop via Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, etc? Or is US - China traffic just way down?

I agree, I wish they would've given China more flights so that the US airlines can add more flights, but given where things are politically right now, I'm not surprised they didn't. I think overall demand to China is still way down. That isn't to say a few more flights couldn't be supported, there is definitely enough demand for a few more flights, but nowhere close to what the pre-pandemic schedule was to China. Frankly I don't think it will ever come back to that level.

giblets wrote:

Passed through PEK today China airlines B-7877 (IIRC) looks pretty sad, it’s Parked up by terminal 2, engineless and cockpit covered up. Looks like it’s not flown since around 25th March when it’s flight got cancelled! Sadly only got a crappy picture on the phone


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I take it you mean Air China, not China Airlines which is from a different place entirely.

LAXintl wrote:

Chinese airlines applied with the DOT to increase U.S. services

Hainan
PEK-BOS 3x weekly - eff 2/17/23
PVG-BOS 3x weekly - eff 2/17/23

No sign of this at all.

chrisnh wrote:

LAXintl wrote:

Chinese airlines applied with the DOT to increase U.S. services

Hainan
PEK-BOS 3x weekly - eff 2/17/23
PVG-BOS 3x weekly - eff 2/17/23

No sign of this at all.

No sign, because DOT has yet to approve the service.

Air China will convert 8 A330 to freighters through 2025.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/a ... 30.article

https://www.thesundaily.my/home/biden-a ... ML10931580
My guess for U.S. airlines
-UA will increase SFO-PVG to 5x weekly (up from 4)
-DL will increase SEA-PVG and DTW-PVG to 3x weekly each (up from 2)
-AA will increase DFW-PVG to 3x weekly (up from 2)

rjbesikof wrote:

https://www.thesundaily.my/home/biden-administration-oks-boost-in-chinese-airline-flights-to-us-ML10931580
My guess for U.S. airlines
-UA will increase SFO-PVG to 5x weekly (up from 4)
-DL will increase SEA-PVG and DTW-PVG to 3x weekly each (up from 2)
-AA will increase DFW-PVG to 3x weekly (up from 2)

You probably are right, but I don't see why DL is getting the most flights to China, UA should have the most. They have by far the biggest presence in China of any of the US airlines. Maybe because DL is serving from multiple gateways? UA should bring back LAX-PVG to supplement SFO, don't think EWR is feasible right now with the Russia situation.

Also - when should we expect to see SFO-PEK return? Is that more of a demand issue or a not being able to operate enough flights to China issue?

LAXPolaris wrote:

rjbesikof wrote:

https://www.thesundaily.my/home/biden-administration-oks-boost-in-chinese-airline-flights-to-us-ML10931580
My guess for U.S. airlines
-UA will increase SFO-PVG to 5x weekly (up from 4)
-DL will increase SEA-PVG and DTW-PVG to 3x weekly each (up from 2)
-AA will increase DFW-PVG to 3x weekly (up from 2)

You probably are right, but I don't see why DL is getting the most flights to China, UA should have the most. They have by far the biggest presence in China of any of the US airlines. Maybe because DL is serving from multiple gateways? UA should bring back LAX-PVG to supplement SFO, don't think EWR is feasible right now with the Russia situation.

Also - when should we expect to see SFO-PEK return? Is that more of a demand issue or a not being able to operate enough flights to China issue?

I think both of you misread the article or misunderstood the news when it was announced.

Right now US carriers AA, DL and UA are able to operate up to 12 weekly nonstop flights to China from the US. Chinese carriers on the other hand operating from China to the US have been restricted to only 8 weekly nonstop flights. What the Biden Administration has just approved is an increase up to 12 weekly flights so the US now matches the same restriction as China.

US carriers (AA, DL, UA) will NOT be increasing service to China as they are already have authority from Beijing to operate up to 12 weekly flights. Both DL and UA are using all 4 slots available to them, while AA is actually only using 2 of their 4 weekly slots. This announcement has no impact at on AA, DL, or UA they can not exceed the 12 weekly slots they currently have available. However this does level the playing field by allowing Chinese operators to now match the number of frequencies currently available to US carriers which is something Beijing has been pushing for. I think there are currently 4 Chinese carriers flying into the US I imagine the additional 4 weekly frequencies will be split equally amongst all four carriers meaning each Chinese carrier will gain one additional weekly slot.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 023-05-03/
https://ktvz.com/news/2023/05/04/washin ... o-america/

BB78710 wrote:

LAXPolaris wrote:

rjbesikof wrote:

https://www.thesundaily.my/home/biden-administration-oks-boost-in-chinese-airline-flights-to-us-ML10931580
My guess for U.S. airlines
-UA will increase SFO-PVG to 5x weekly (up from 4)
-DL will increase SEA-PVG and DTW-PVG to 3x weekly each (up from 2)
-AA will increase DFW-PVG to 3x weekly (up from 2)

You probably are right, but I don't see why DL is getting the most flights to China, UA should have the most. They have by far the biggest presence in China of any of the US airlines. Maybe because DL is serving from multiple gateways? UA should bring back LAX-PVG to supplement SFO, don't think EWR is feasible right now with the Russia situation.

Also - when should we expect to see SFO-PEK return? Is that more of a demand issue or a not being able to operate enough flights to China issue?

I think both of you misread the article or misunderstood the news when it was announced.

Right now US carriers AA, DL and UA are able to operate up to 12 weekly nonstop flights to China from the US. Chinese carriers on the other hand operating from China to the US have been restricted to only 8 weekly nonstop flights. What the Biden Administration has just approved is an increase up to 12 weekly flights so the US now matches the same restriction as China.

US carriers (AA, DL, UA) will NOT be increasing service to China as they are already have authority from Beijing to operate up to 12 weekly flights. Both DL and UA are using all 4 slots available to them, while AA is actually only using 2 of their 4 weekly slots. This announcement has no impact at on AA, DL, or UA they can not exceed the 12 weekly slots they currently have available. However this does level the playing field by allowing Chinese operators to now match the number of frequencies currently available to US carriers which is something Beijing has been pushing for. I think there are currently 4 Chinese carriers flying into the US I imagine the additional 4 weekly frequencies will be split equally amongst all four carriers meaning each Chinese carrier will gain one additional weekly slot.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 023-05-03/
https://ktvz.com/news/2023/05/04/washin ... o-america/

AA only was allotted 2x weekly initially because, there were only 10x weekly available for US carriers (increased from 8, which were utilized by UA (4) and DL (4)). China allowed it to be increased to 12x weekly (allowing AA also to increase to 4x weekly). However, this was pending this reciprocity being extended to Chinese carriers, which has just happened now. So AA had to pull back 2x weekly flights in May while waiting for this to come into effect.

With expansion of U.S. frequencies, Chinese carriers plan following increases.

Air China - PEK-JFK 1x weekly effective May 27.
China Eastern - PVG-LAX 1x weekly effective May 20
China Southern - CAN-LAX additional weekly frequency effective May 29
Xiamen - XMN-LAX additional frequency effective May 20

OST-2020-0052

Shenzhen Airlines will launch Shenzhen - Barcelona starting August with 3 weekly flights.

https://twitter.com/AeroinfoBCN/status/1658391343062712320?s=20

First locally converted EFW A330P2F delivered to Sichuan Airlines



https://aviationsourcenews.com/airline/ ... freighter/

Chart showing international air service recovery rates compared to 2019.



https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/31/very-fe ... covid.html

LAXintl wrote:

Chart showing international air service recovery rates compared to 2019.



https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/31/very-fe ... covid.html

Many markets here have not even been restarted yet, or are operating at low capacity levels.

No carrier from China (Air China, China Eastern, China Southern) has resumed service to India yet. I wonder when airlines from China will resume India. Anything delaying the resumption of flights between China and India, or is it going to normally resume in the future?

Both Canada and the US aren't even close to a recovery, and with politic problems its unlikely flights will be operated at pre-pandemic levels anytime soon. Air Canada, American, Delta, and United are still operating a tiny portion of capacity to China compared to before the pandemic, many routes are still suspended.

Are the US airlines expected to get additional rights for China flights anytime soon?

Any idea when will Chinese carriers resume services to India?? CA, MU, CZ & CI all used to serve DEL pre-Covid.

Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs says following U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken visit the parties would discuss increasing passenger flights between China and the US.

https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/wjbzhd/202306/ ... 9462.shtml

Asiana back to Yancheng
OZ337/338 A321neo

UK OneAir 747 is flying to Jinan（the capital of Shandong Province ）from London Gatwick with non-stop，historical flight！

3D101CA wrote:

LAXintl wrote:

Chart showing international air service recovery rates compared to 2019.



https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/31/very-fe ... covid.html

Many markets here have not even been restarted yet, or are operating at low capacity levels.

No carrier from China (Air China, China Eastern, China Southern) has resumed service to India yet. I wonder when airlines from China will resume India. Anything delaying the resumption of flights between China and India, or is it going to normally resume in the future?

Both Canada and the US aren't even close to a recovery, and with politic problems its unlikely flights will be operated at pre-pandemic levels anytime soon. Air Canada, American, Delta, and United are still operating a tiny portion of capacity to China compared to before the pandemic, many routes are still suspended.

I read that air travel demand from Japan to China have reduced significantly as China visa free access still jave not been restored, and Japanese people now need invitation letter, proof of employment and academic record, resume, information of family members, etc before China would approve their visa.

LAXPolaris wrote:

When is it reasonable to think UA will add more flights to China?

This article from a few weeks ago says UA wants to add more flights but can't because the governments essentially need to approve them: https://simpleflying.com/united-wants-t ... -to-china/

If the Chinese airlines are getting more flights to the US, why aren't the US airlines getting more flights to China? Right now UA is only operating SFO-HKG and SFO-PVG but the loads are basically full every day.

United will back Beijing（PEK ）in about October .My friend told me the news . I search on United Website . It's actually true .UA888/889 （from San Francisco ） will use 77W.UA88/89 （from Newark，13 hours） will use 777-200ER（222 or 224？）.
Chinese Government now decided to add more international flights . Some policies support this decision . In thr early of this year . Some airlines like Korean Air want to stop fly to some Chinese cities . But KE now cancel this decision .
l think the US-China fnumbers of flight will not back to 2019 . A lot of reasons .

China Eastern add Shanghai Pudong （PVG）- Madrid （MAD）-Buenos Aires （EZE）and Shanghai Pudong - Cairo （CAI）flights at winter . China Eastern will use Airbus 33E/33H/359 in its fleet .
Thousands of Shanghainese people travel to Middle East and South America . No any nonstop flights at now . Most of them by tour group ，a friend of mine this summer goes to Middle East with his family by tourist group .He must to transfer ，not convenient . China Eastern give the nonstop flights ，it's will be a big market .

PKX-LHR operated using 359 for CZ, looks very profitable as they fly 3 hr less compared to BA using 772s.

rt23456p wrote:

PKX-LHR operated using 359 for CZ, looks very profitable as they fly 3 hr less compared to BA using 772s.

Many Chinese people to UK further studies.

N661UA wrote:

rt23456p wrote:

PKX-LHR operated using 359 for CZ, looks very profitable as they fly 3 hr less compared to BA using 772s.

Many Chinese people to UK further studies.

Yeah, with those 1 year Taught Master, trio-win for the Airlines, UK schools and students.

China announced the resumption of outbound group travel to more countries.
Group tours will now be allowed to major markets including Australia, Japan, UK and the US.

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-paci ... 023-08-10/

https://twitter.com/WandrMe/status/1689695878863306752
Air China and China Eastern add more LA and NYC flights

N661UA wrote:

https://twitter.com/WandrMe/status/1689695878863306752
Air China and China Eastern add more LA and NYC flights

Even more news as of Oct 4, China Eastern appears to be looking at launching direct flights from Shanghai to Buenos Aires alongside other new routes happening as per this source:
https://www.aviacionline.com/2023/10/ch ... ires-plan/

This would mark the return of a direct link from North/Southeast Asia to Buenos Aires since Malaysia Airlines's last service to the Argentinian capital.

Is there a reason why China's international flight cant just rebound like other places like why are COVID-19 flight limitations still in place and/or why cant they just be "lifted"?

As reported on Aviacionline, last week, China Eastern Airlines unveiled its growth plan for the next ten years in Shanghai during the announcement of its half-yearly results for 2023.

According to this plan, China Eastern has split its expansion into two five-year phases.

The next phase, the fourteenth in the series, includes the opening of 18 new routes from Shanghai to various destinations:

South America: Buenos Aires/Ezeiza (Argentina).
Europe: Manchester (United Kingdom), Athens (Greece), Marseille (France), Milan/Malpensa (Italy), and Vienna (Austria).
Africa: Johannesburg/OR Tambo (South Africa) and Cairo (Egypt).
Middle East: Abu Dhabi (United Arab Emirates), Riyadh (Saudi Arabia), Tehran (Iran), and Tel Aviv (Israel).
Asia: Almaty (Kazakhstan), Cheongju (South Korea), Da Nang and Hanoi (Vietnam), Tashkent (Uzbekistan), and Vientiane (Cambodia).

Upon concluding this expansion phase, China Eastern plans to launch several more new routes from Shanghai, which include 23 new destinations among them:

North America: Atlanta, Boston, and Seattle (USA).
Europe: Berlin and Munich (Germany), Barcelona (Spain).
Africa: Nairobi (Kenya).
Oceania: Christchurch (New Zealand) and Perth (Australia).

https://www.aviacionline.com/2023/10/ch ... ires-plan/

A few things that are interesting to me:

- All these routes are ex-PVG. There's nothing about MU's secondary hubs, like HGH - where do they fit into these plans?

- The US expansion doesn't feature in the first five year plan - presumably due to uncertainty around US-China tensions?

Thoughts?

They certainly have the planes. As per Wiki...they have 20xB77Ws...5xB789s and 20xA359s. All are configured with an F cabin.

In addition, they have 50xA330s...a mix of 200 & 300s with no F

BOS, ATL, and SEA are not surprising. Those are DL hubs and DL can always let MU take over more of the flying. In addition, these are cities that can probably support a service to PVG (and beyond) even without a significant DL feed.

What's more interesting in North America is where they are not expanding to given the chance. I would have thought YYC or even YUL (although AC used to fly YUL-PVG and CA used to fly PEK-YUL) would be considered as they are underserved Canadian markets without much transpacific competition.

Marseille is an interesting choice on the European as I did not see that one coming. Not sure what type of traffic they are expecting for that.

planemanofnz wrote:

As reported on Aviacionline, last week, China Eastern Airlines unveiled its growth plan for the next ten years in Shanghai during the announcement of its half-yearly results for 2023.

According to this plan, China Eastern has split its expansion into two five-year phases.

The next phase, the fourteenth in the series, includes the opening of 18 new routes from Shanghai to various destinations:

South America: Buenos Aires/Ezeiza (Argentina).
Europe: Manchester (United Kingdom), Athens (Greece), Marseille (France), Milan/Malpensa (Italy), and Vienna (Austria).
Africa: Johannesburg/OR Tambo (South Africa) and Cairo (Egypt).
Middle East: Abu Dhabi (United Arab Emirates), Riyadh (Saudi Arabia), Tehran (Iran), and Tel Aviv (Israel).
Asia: Almaty (Kazakhstan), Cheongju (South Korea), Da Nang and Hanoi (Vietnam), Tashkent (Uzbekistan), and Vientiane (Cambodia).

Upon concluding this expansion phase, China Eastern plans to launch several more new routes from Shanghai, which include 23 new destinations among them:

North America: Atlanta, Boston, and Seattle (USA).
Europe: Berlin and Munich (Germany), Barcelona (Spain).
Africa: Nairobi (Kenya).
Oceania: Christchurch (New Zealand) and Perth (Australia).

https://www.aviacionline.com/2023/10/ch ... ires-plan/

A few things that are interesting to me:

- All these routes are ex-PVG. There's nothing about MU's secondary hubs, like HGH - where do they fit into these plans?

- The US expansion doesn't feature in the first five year plan - presumably due to uncertainty around US-China tensions?

Thoughts?

A minor point - you have Vientiane (Cambodia), but it should be Vientiane (Laos).

Wow, MRS really surprises me ahead of service to plenty of other EU cities I can think of that MU doesn't fly to. Is there a big Chinese community in MRS or business links or is this tourist traffic?

If they could do something with the international lounge in Shanghai, it would be appreciated. The current MU lounge is a dump.

Chasensfo wrote:

Wow, MRS really surprises me ahead of service to plenty of other EU cities I can think of that MU doesn't fly to. Is there a big Chinese community in MRS or business links or is this tourist traffic?

Both Shanghai and Marseille are large shipping ports. China actually owns part of Fos port near Marseille. So, there is a business link.

Cheers!

CZ is adding a winter seasonal twice-weekly CGO - LGW flight with B788's from 12 Dec to end March. What's behind this - textile industry cargo ?

Lots of new places to lose money; who is this even for?

What happen to Houston (IAH)? I remembered they filed DOT to have a new service for nonstop before covid and nothing hear from DOT approve or not?

MaverickM11 wrote:

Lots of new places to lose money; who is this even for?

Lots of chinese students in MAN and cheap connections to Aus and Asia going the other way. Whether that is enough to support a daily service, I doubt tbh.

MaverickM11 wrote:

Lots of new places to lose money; who is this even for?

I love 5 year plans! Who is this for- who cares- the big 3 Chinese carriers are all state owned, so profit isn't always a motivating factor. I'll gladly give MU my hard currency in return for extremely affordable biz class tickets from MXP to SYD

andrew1996 wrote:

What's more interesting in North America is where they are not expanding to given the chance. I would have thought YYC or even YUL (although AC used to fly YUL-PVG and CA used to fly PEK-YUL) would be considered as they are underserved Canadian markets without much transpacific competition.

Calgary is "underserved?" A metro region with ~1.5 million inhabitants is underserved because it lacks non-stop links to Asia? I guess JAX oughta be getting a non-stop to China any day now, too.