Scant details on this so far, but Twitter user xjonnyc is reporting on a near incursion/collission at JFK last night 1/13/23 between AA106 to LHR and DL1943 to SDQ.

https://twitter.com/xJonNYC/status/1614252314432311296

LiveATC.net won't load for me on any browser so I can't check the ATC record, but apparently, DL1943 was taking off on runway 4L while taxiing AA106 hadn't completely cleared its crossing of 4L along taxiway J.

Here's a FlightRadar24 replay:
https://twitter.com/CaseWade/status/161 ... vAzZ6l7mTA

Anyone know anything more?

Been following JonNYC’s coverage of this all day. Definitely could’ve been a bad situation. I did see DL1943 was delayed until this morning so I’m guessing there was an aircraft issue after the RTO. Will be interesting to hear the sequence of events once the tapes are available.

OKCDCA wrote:

Been following JonNYC’s coverage of this all day. Definitely could’ve been a bad situation. I did see DL1943 was delayed until this morning so I’m guessing there was an aircraft issue after the RTO. Will be interesting to hear the sequence of events once the tapes are available.

He has snips of LiveATC up - oddly I wasn't able to pull from the archive. LiveATC hasn't really played well with some of the newer browsers for the last few years.

I'm confused by the first clip, sounds like post-incident, where the controller is telling them they crossed 4L and they're departing 31L. If I were to guess, the AAL crosses 4L because they're given "clear to cross 31L" and they failed to turn right on K.

FR24 sure makes it look like they're heading down B, which makes sense because it's the counterclockwise taxiway. That one's a headscratcher then... unless they had been given 31L F/L for weight, and the controller goofed. Either way, that's an awkward turn to make down there to get on to J to cross 4L. It sounds like they were turned around and entered 4L without clearance.

If you believe FR24 this was really close, I'm not so sure. If it was that close, then somebody didn't check left and right, because that DAL 739 was rolling.

Not sure why AA would have to cross 4L in this situation. I’ve never seen a departure off the right side, and they’re not going over there to park. Wonder if they missed a turn, hence the confusion?

TonyClifton wrote:

Not sure why AA would have to cross 4L in this situation. I’ve never seen a departure off the right side, and they’re not going over there to park. Wonder if they missed a turn, hence the confusion?

They could have been given 31L full-length for weight. It's not out of the question and can happen in the evening departure push, but I doubt they'd need it only going to LHR in a 777. Possibly JFK flipped the boat on them and went to 4's after they briefed and planned 31L, so they asked?

Real hard to say, honestly. The METAR shows a nice, breezy, cloudy night for January. Weather isn't a contributing factor:

KJFK 140151Z 32017G26KT 10SM OVC030 04/M02 A2970 RMK AO2 PK WND 34026/0145 SLP058 T00441017
KJFK 140051Z 32018KT 10SM OVC026 05/M01 A2969 RMK AO2 SLP053 T00501011

bluecrew wrote:

TonyClifton wrote:

Not sure why AA would have to cross 4L in this situation. I’ve never seen a departure off the right side, and they’re not going over there to park. Wonder if they missed a turn, hence the confusion?

They could have been given 31L full-length for weight. It's not out of the question and can happen in the evening departure push, but I doubt they'd need it only going to LHR in a 777. Possibly JFK flipped the boat on them and went to 4's after they briefed and planned 31L, so they asked?

Real hard to say, honestly. The METAR shows a nice, breezy, cloudy night for January. Weather isn't a contributing factor:

KJFK 140151Z 32017G26KT 10SM OVC030 04/M02 A2970 RMK AO2 PK WND 34026/0145 SLP058 T00441017
KJFK 140051Z 32018KT 10SM OVC026 05/M01 A2969 RMK AO2 SLP053 T00501011

They could for sure, but 4L is already 12,000ft so it’s hard to envision what performance limit would be imposed that requires 14,511 feet instead. Like I said, I guess we will find out more eventually.

TonyClifton wrote:

bluecrew wrote:

TonyClifton wrote:

Not sure why AA would have to cross 4L in this situation. I’ve never seen a departure off the right side, and they’re not going over there to park. Wonder if they missed a turn, hence the confusion?

They could have been given 31L full-length for weight. It's not out of the question and can happen in the evening departure push, but I doubt they'd need it only going to LHR in a 777. Possibly JFK flipped the boat on them and went to 4's after they briefed and planned 31L, so they asked?

Real hard to say, honestly. The METAR shows a nice, breezy, cloudy night for January. Weather isn't a contributing factor:

KJFK 140151Z 32017G26KT 10SM OVC030 04/M02 A2970 RMK AO2 PK WND 34026/0145 SLP058 T00441017
KJFK 140051Z 32018KT 10SM OVC026 05/M01 A2969 RMK AO2 SLP053 T00501011

They could for sure, but 4L is already 12,000ft so it’s hard to envision what performance limit would be imposed that requires 14,511 feet instead. Like I said, I guess we will find out more eventually.

Right, like I said it's possible, but doesn't sound reasonable. I'm not familiar at all with the B772, but I can't imagine a scenario where they'd need the extra 2.5k ft in the winter. Could be a "we briefed this so let's ask for it" situation?

From what's available right now it sounds like a failure of hear-back read-back and some situational awareness misses. There's an aspect of money see, monkey do here as well. If it's a nice clear night at JFK you can see all those aircraft lined up for 4L from B, so why do the awkward little turn onto J and think you're supposed to cross 4L? Having trouble envisioning it.

AAL seems to have a lot of issues at JFK. Winglet strike, the primadonna 777 CA that declared an emergency and screwed up ops that afternoon, this one, etc.

bluecrew wrote:

TonyClifton wrote:

bluecrew wrote:

AAL seems to have a lot of issues at JFK. Winglet strike, the primadonna 777 CA that declared an emergency and screwed up ops that afternoon, this one, etc.

AA587… The Winglet one was scary too. However, I would say AA runs pretty well at JFK operationally. I hope AA does improve and continues to add routes.

https://viewfromthewing.com/near-disast ... -new-york/

Info here with ATC transcript. AA aircraft did indeed cross incorrectly.

TonyClifton wrote:

https://viewfromthewing.com/near-disaster-as-american-airlines-plane-passes-in-front-of-departing-delta-jet-in-new-york/

Info here with ATC transcript. AA aircraft did indeed cross incorrectly.

Seems like a pretty big error on the part of the AA pilots. Thankfully the DL pilots averted a Tenerife-like disaster. I wonder what consequences the AA pilots will face?

The thread title has been updated for clarity. There's no such thing as a "Near-Incursion", only an incursion, which is what happened here. A runway incursion happens whenever an aircraft, vehicle, etc. violates the protected area of the runway without clearance.

✈️ atcsundevil

TonyClifton wrote:

https://viewfromthewing.com/near-disaster-as-american-airlines-plane-passes-in-front-of-departing-delta-jet-in-new-york/

Info here with ATC transcript. AA aircraft did indeed cross incorrectly.

Great job by ATC on avoiding the near disaster.. My only question is why was the Delta flight delayed so long.. Even short rejected take offs require a maintenance check?

DCA350 wrote:

TonyClifton wrote:

https://viewfromthewing.com/near-disaster-as-american-airlines-plane-passes-in-front-of-departing-delta-jet-in-new-york/

Info here with ATC transcript. AA aircraft did indeed cross incorrectly.

Great job by ATC on avoiding the near disaster.. My only question is why was the Delta flight delayed so long.. Even short rejected take offs require a maintenance check?

Delta 737 reached at least 99 knots based on FR24 video. That's a high speed RTO so maintenance checks are required. Additionally, the flight crew could have timed out during the the checks and needed a new crew.

SDFguy wrote:

TonyClifton wrote:

https://viewfromthewing.com/near-disaster-as-american-airlines-plane-passes-in-front-of-departing-delta-jet-in-new-york/

Info here with ATC transcript. AA aircraft did indeed cross incorrectly.

Seems like a pretty big error on the part of the AA pilots. Thankfully the DL pilots averted a Tenerife-like disaster. I wonder what consequences the AA pilots will face?

ASAP, debrief, appropriate retraining. Punishment yields little in the way of results, that’s not how airlines in the US operate these days.

This was out yesterday afternoon but I was to tired to post it before bed. According to Delta spokesman it says the crew timed out and that is why it was delayed until Saturday morning.

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/jfk- ... index.html

TonyClifton wrote:

SDFguy wrote:

TonyClifton wrote:

https://viewfromthewing.com/near-disaster-as-american-airlines-plane-passes-in-front-of-departing-delta-jet-in-new-york/

Info here with ATC transcript. AA aircraft did indeed cross incorrectly.

Seems like a pretty big error on the part of the AA pilots. Thankfully the DL pilots averted a Tenerife-like disaster. I wonder what consequences the AA pilots will face?

ASAP, debrief, appropriate retraining. Punishment yields little in the way of results, that’s not how airlines in the US operate these days.

It's not "punishment" to fire them. It's to keep them from killing several hundred people in the future. Call it a mistake or a criminal ignoring of rules, it's not really a training issue. And it's not something you should get a second chance at.

Nomadd wrote:

TonyClifton wrote:

SDFguy wrote:

Seems like a pretty big error on the part of the AA pilots. Thankfully the DL pilots averted a Tenerife-like disaster. I wonder what consequences the AA pilots will face?

ASAP, debrief, appropriate retraining. Punishment yields little in the way of results, that’s not how airlines in the US operate these days.

It's not "punishment" to fire them. It's to keep them from killing several hundred people in the future. Call it a mistake or a criminal ignoring of rules, it's not really a training issue. And it's not something you should get a second chance at.

Well, they aren’t getting fired, so your point is irrelevant.

Crap. AA106 was cleared to cross a runway they were not holding at.

https://twitter.com/thenewarea51/status ... 8427601920

Nomadd wrote:

TonyClifton wrote:

SDFguy wrote:

Seems like a pretty big error on the part of the AA pilots. Thankfully the DL pilots averted a Tenerife-like disaster. I wonder what consequences the AA pilots will face?

ASAP, debrief, appropriate retraining. Punishment yields little in the way of results, that’s not how airlines in the US operate these days.

It's not "punishment" to fire them. It's to keep them from killing several hundred people in the future. Call it a mistake or a criminal ignoring of rules, it's not really a training issue. And it's not something you should get a second chance at.

People tend to make more mistakes or hide their mistakes under the pressure of being fired. That has led to the culture of retraining when a mistake happens. It is arguably more safe this way as we admit our mistakes and alert the industry of potential issues, and also work under lower stress conditions.

That is scary stuff. I wonder at what point the delta crew realized what is happening and whether it was the atc transmission that notified them or they visially identified the incursion. Theres a lot to keep track of in those moments. The crew and atc seemed pretty shook up afterwards which is understandable. Im pretty sure thats designated as hot spot in the charts too.

Nomadd wrote:

TonyClifton wrote:

SDFguy wrote:

Seems like a pretty big error on the part of the AA pilots. Thankfully the DL pilots averted a Tenerife-like disaster. I wonder what consequences the AA pilots will face?

ASAP, debrief, appropriate retraining. Punishment yields little in the way of results, that’s not how airlines in the US operate these days.

It's not "punishment" to fire them. It's to keep them from killing several hundred people in the future. Call it a mistake or a criminal ignoring of rules, it's not really a training issue. And it's not something you should get a second chance at.

Tell me you have zero commercial aviation experience with saying you have zero commercial experience.

And history proves that the result of your brilliant plan is everyone hides their mistakes to save their jobs, crucial trends aren’t reported, and crashes become more common.

Nomadd wrote:

It's not "punishment" to fire them. It's to keep them from killing several hundred people in the future. Call it a mistake or a criminal ignoring of rules, it's not really a training issue. And it's not something you should get a second chance at.

Firing the pilots only ensures that they will not repeat the error. Doing an investigation as to why the error was made, then making steps to reduce/eliminate the cause, then making those results public, ensures no one will repeat the error.

This is how an advanced Safety Management System works in advanced countries like the United States. As well noted above, an old draconian system where all errors result in discipline results in a less safe system.

This is an astounding mistake for a well experienced crew to make. I’d be curious what the causes for such an error would be.

SDFguy wrote:

TonyClifton wrote:

https://viewfromthewing.com/near-disaster-as-american-airlines-plane-passes-in-front-of-departing-delta-jet-in-new-york/

Info here with ATC transcript. AA aircraft did indeed cross incorrectly.

Seems like a pretty big error on the part of the AA pilots. Thankfully the DL pilots averted a Tenerife-like disaster. I wonder what consequences the AA pilots will face?

The AA pilots continued on to LHR, if it was their sole mistake wouldn’t they be asked to park the airplane somewhere and call the FAA?

CrewBunk wrote:

This is how an advanced Safety Management System works in advanced countries like the United States. As well noted above, an old draconian system where all errors result in discipline results in a less safe system.

This is an astounding mistake for a well experienced crew to make. I’d be curious what the causes for such an error would be.

Absolutely, my bet is peer pressure since its all over the media and I’m sure most pilots in that base at AA know who they are is enough punishment for them.

Remedial training and new procedures will avoid this in the future. NOT termination..

CrewBunk wrote:

This is an astounding mistake for a well experienced crew to make. I’d be curious what the causes for such an error would be.

Listening to the audio - they were cleared to cross 31L (which they weren't holding at). Appears AA made a wrong turn onto Juliet instead of Kilo from Bravo but it wasn't until they were holding short of 4L that they were cleared to cross via Kilo. Based on that, ATC is at least partially going to be found at fault. Regardless of whether you're looking out the windows and seeing the aircraft facing the wrong way or looking at Aerobahn or whatever other ASDE-X tool JFK uses, the aircraft was clearly not holding short on Kilo.

I think AA was likely too far into the runway by the time DL was cleared to take-off for it to have triggered the RELs.

It’s unbelievable the AA crew could have missed their taxi assignment this badly. Being told to hold at 31L at Kilo and find yourself short of 4L on Joliet is mind boggling. ATC should have caught their position but for them to be so badly out of it is unexplainable. Sad…

How was visibility? Could the DL pilots taking off see AA taxiing onto 4L or were they cleared before the cross began?

On the flip side, couldn’t AA pilots see planes utilizing 4L for takeoff? There was another DL flight that took off moments before AA began to cross along with about 4 inline for takeoff at 4L.

alasizon wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

This is an astounding mistake for a well experienced crew to make. I’d be curious what the causes for such an error would be.

Listening to the audio - they were cleared to cross 31L (which they weren't holding at). Appears AA made a wrong turn onto Juliet instead of Kilo from Bravo but it wasn't until they were holding short of 4L that they were cleared to cross via Kilo. Based on that, ATC is at least partially going to be found at fault.

ATC is at fault because a pilot didn't follow the instruction? The only blame I'd assign ATC after listening to the tape is that the 4L departures guy seemed to panic when he noticed the incursion (you hear some &%$* on the tape that sounds like his voice), and it was ~6 seconds later he cancelled the TO clearance. That's precious time. Lets be thankful this was a tragedy avoided.

It is surprising that an AA 777 pilot who's probably very familiar with the JFK operation made the mistake, but mistakes happen even with very experienced crew. Have to learn from it and improve.

RDUDDJI wrote:

alasizon wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

This is an astounding mistake for a well experienced crew to make. I’d be curious what the causes for such an error would be.

Listening to the audio - they were cleared to cross 31L (which they weren't holding at). Appears AA made a wrong turn onto Juliet instead of Kilo from Bravo but it wasn't until they were holding short of 4L that they were cleared to cross via Kilo. Based on that, ATC is at least partially going to be found at fault.

ATC is at fault because a pilot didn't follow the instruction? The only blame I'd assign ATC after listening to the tape is that the 4L departures guy seemed to panic when he noticed the incursion (you hear some &%$* on the tape that sounds like his voice), and it was ~6 seconds later he cancelled the TO clearance. That's precious time. Lets be thankful this was a tragedy avoided.

It is surprising that an AA 777 pilot who's probably very familiar with the JFK operation made the mistake, but mistakes happen even with very experienced crew. Have to learn from it and improve.

I'm not saying ATC is the only party at fault, I'm saying they will be found to be partially at fault/having made errors. The AA pilots still should have been situationally aware enough to overcome the ATC error though.

RDUDDJI wrote:

alasizon wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

This is an astounding mistake for a well experienced crew to make. I’d be curious what the causes for such an error would be.

Listening to the audio - they were cleared to cross 31L (which they weren't holding at). Appears AA made a wrong turn onto Juliet instead of Kilo from Bravo but it wasn't until they were holding short of 4L that they were cleared to cross via Kilo. Based on that, ATC is at least partially going to be found at fault.

ATC is at fault because a pilot didn't follow the instruction? The only blame I'd assign ATC after listening to the tape is that the 4L departures guy seemed to panic when he noticed the incursion (you hear some &%$* on the tape that sounds like his voice), and it was ~6 seconds later he cancelled the TO clearance. That's precious time. Lets be thankful this was a tragedy avoided.

It is surprising that an AA 777 pilot who's probably very familiar with the JFK operation made the mistake, but mistakes happen even with very experienced crew. Have to learn from it and improve.

Would the ATC need to be looking at the aircraft it was clearing before issuing the clearance to cross? If the ATC said cross runway XXX when no aircraft was at the location to cross, should the clearance still be given?

D L X wrote:

RDUDDJI wrote:

alasizon wrote:

Listening to the audio - they were cleared to cross 31L (which they weren't holding at). Appears AA made a wrong turn onto Juliet instead of Kilo from Bravo but it wasn't until they were holding short of 4L that they were cleared to cross via Kilo. Based on that, ATC is at least partially going to be found at fault.

ATC is at fault because a pilot didn't follow the instruction? The only blame I'd assign ATC after listening to the tape is that the 4L departures guy seemed to panic when he noticed the incursion (you hear some &%$* on the tape that sounds like his voice), and it was ~6 seconds later he cancelled the TO clearance. That's precious time. Lets be thankful this was a tragedy avoided.

It is surprising that an AA 777 pilot who's probably very familiar with the JFK operation made the mistake, but mistakes happen even with very experienced crew. Have to learn from it and improve.

Would the ATC need to be looking at the aircraft it was clearing before issuing the clearance to cross? If the ATC said cross runway XXX when no aircraft was at the location to cross, should the clearance still be given?

This is a great question. Is ATC physically looking at the taxiways/runways or just looking at their screen? Or both?

D L X wrote:

Crap. AA106 was cleared to cross a runway they were not holding at.

https://twitter.com/thenewarea51/status ... 8427601920

So to be clear, they were given a clearance to "cross 31L at Kilo". Taxiway Kilo does indeed cross 31L - and you would expect to cross there to get to the end of 4L. If 31L was not in use at the time, they can be given that clearance even before they get there. Do not need to be given a hold short if it's not in use either.

The part I did not hear in there was a "right Kilo" call. They came down Bravo (which parallels 31L) from the AA ramp area. ATC wanted them to turn right on Kilo. Maybe a pilot can say if it's normal to imply the right turn by giving the clearance to cross that runway.

Basically, if this captures everything pilots heard:
"Bravo short of Kilo" - OK, stop at Kilo and wait to go until told.
"cross 31L at Kilo" - ATC wanted them to turn right onto Kilo and cross 31L, but they went straight ahead still on Bravo.

D L X wrote:

RDUDDJI wrote:

alasizon wrote:

Listening to the audio - they were cleared to cross 31L (which they weren't holding at). Appears AA made a wrong turn onto Juliet instead of Kilo from Bravo but it wasn't until they were holding short of 4L that they were cleared to cross via Kilo. Based on that, ATC is at least partially going to be found at fault.

ATC is at fault because a pilot didn't follow the instruction? The only blame I'd assign ATC after listening to the tape is that the 4L departures guy seemed to panic when he noticed the incursion (you hear some &%$* on the tape that sounds like his voice), and it was ~6 seconds later he cancelled the TO clearance. That's precious time. Lets be thankful this was a tragedy avoided.

It is surprising that an AA 777 pilot who's probably very familiar with the JFK operation made the mistake, but mistakes happen even with very experienced crew. Have to learn from it and improve.

Would the ATC need to be looking at the aircraft it was clearing before issuing the clearance to cross? If the ATC said cross runway XXX when no aircraft was at the location to cross, should the clearance still be given?

They should unambiguously be able to identify the aircraft either by looking at it, or by using the ASDE-X monitor. Technique, probably shouldn't give a cross without visually confirming, but if the instruction was to taxi to 4L, sure, they can give the crossing instruction while you're on B to keep things moving. Night-time departure push at JFK - it's a busy time of night. Very common to hear.

The AA crew was clearly turned around - on the ground overlay they're on J short of 4L, they read back "cross 31L at Kilo" and then proceed to enter 4L. It's a little bit more on the pilots than the controller to me, but both are going to be given some credit for this one.

Spooky stuff. I can predict more than a couple LMS modules on crossing and hold short instructions, and situational awareness in complex ground environments, are probably being assigned by Dallas right now. Looks like a classic loss of SA, controller likely wasn't looking at the ASDE-X either. When you hear the first "s***!" I would strongly suggest that's 1-2 seconds after the ASDE-X alerts them to the incursion. The system was explained to me a few years ago and I believe it uses a groundspeed trigger, so when the DAL hit a certain speed it likely triggered the alert.

The Aviation Herald has picked up and analyzed this incident: https://avherald.com/h?article=503c9620&opt=0

alasizon wrote:

Listening to the audio - they were cleared to cross 31L (which they weren't holding at). Appears AA made a wrong turn onto Juliet instead of Kilo from Bravo but it wasn't until they were holding short of 4L that they were cleared to cross via Kilo. Based on that, ATC is at least partially going to be found at fault. Regardless of whether you're looking out the windows and seeing the aircraft facing the wrong way or looking at Aerobahn or whatever other ASDE-X tool JFK uses, the aircraft was clearly not holding short on Kilo.

Looking at this map provide by the Aviation Herald both the crossing of Runway 31L on taxiway K and the crossing of 4L on taxiway J are both sort of right turns from the path taken by AA106 on taxiway B. Makes the mistake almost a little plausible as such.

The most interesting thing to me is that ATC let AA106 continue on to LHR. I guess since there was no real harm done, there's no reason not to let them go, but it still seems weird to not have a more immediate debrief.

Also according to the Aviation Herald:

The FAA reported according to preliminary analysis the 737 stopped about 1000 feet short of the intersection with taxiway J, where the 777 had crossed the runway. The FAA opened an investigation.

1000 ft of separation at the close to 150 miles/hour that DL1943 was at is about six seconds of separation. Scary close!

atcsundevil wrote:

The thread title has been updated for clarity. There's no such thing as a "Near-Incursion", only an incursion, which is what happened here. A runway incursion happens whenever an aircraft, vehicle, etc. violates the protected area of the runway without clearance.

I apologize, I still don't know all the right terms. Thanks for the clarification!

I feel for the delta pilot’s reaction. Surely he will be re-living that and what almost was a very serious accident for a long time to come.

Would they have retrieved the AA106 CVR recordings once the aircraft was on the ground at LHR or when it came back to the USA? I expect the CVR recording could be important from an investigative standpoint to help understand why the wrong runway was crossed even after the correct read-back of "cross Runway 31L at Kilo". Also which runway was briefed for departure before taxi clearance. The CVR should have held at least 24 hours recording time? This is not to assign blame but to understand what happened so that the industry can learn from it to prevent it from happening again.

DanielsBrawley wrote:

It’s unbelievable the AA crew could have missed their taxi assignment this badly. Being told to hold at 31L at Kilo and find yourself short of 4L on Joliet is mind boggling. ATC should have caught their position but for them to be so badly out of it is unexplainable. Sad…

Wouldn't AA have had the airport diagram up on their EFB screens, with the GPS location of their aircraft superimposed?

zuckie13 wrote:

So to be clear, they were given a clearance to "cross 31L at Kilo". Taxiway Kilo does indeed cross 31L - and you would expect to cross there to get to the end of 4L. If 31L was not in use at the time, they can be given that clearance even before they get there. Do not need to be given a hold short if it's not in use either.

This. The controller assumed that they knew that taxi via B, K to 4L would not include going on J and crossing 4L.

zuckie13 wrote:

The part I did not hear in there was a "right Kilo" call. They came down Bravo (which parallels 31L) from the AA ramp area. ATC wanted them to turn right on Kilo. Maybe a pilot can say if it's normal to imply the right turn by giving the clearance to cross that runway.

Basically, if this captures everything pilots heard:
"Bravo short of Kilo" - OK, stop at Kilo and wait to go until told.
"cross 31L at Kilo" - ATC wanted them to turn right onto Kilo and cross 31L, but they went straight ahead still on Bravo.

Actually they were on Juliet when they crossed, which was also not in the controller's instructions. That K/B/J intersection is so close to the corner between those runways, by the time a controller realizes they've made the wrong turn, it's already a dangerous situation. I do think ATC deserves some blame here but the vast majority of it is on the pilots. They were on the wrong TWY and crossed a RWY they didn't have clearance to cross. If they didn't understand the taxi instructions (which they repeated), they should have asked.

It's hard to believe that with all the technology available today, there isn't some kind of indication of your taxi path on the screens in the cockpit and alerts when you deviate. Wouldn't be feasible at all airports, but could be a life saver at mega airports like JFK. Also would be great in low visibility situations (although not relevant to this thread).

How does this incident compare to the MU incident at SHA a few years ago?

So it makes sense now. From the ATC audio I have listened to, AA was cleared to taxi along Bravo, and later, while still on Bravo, to cross 31L at Kilo in order to proceed along Kilo to the departure end of 4L (like Kilo One). No question the clearance was to cross 31L at Kilo, not 4L at Juliet. Juliet is never mentioned. For whatever reason, AA got to Juliet on Bravo and went straight ahead to cross 4L at Juliet instead of turning right onto Kilo. After being given the phone number for the pilot deviation, by the time the AA captain tried to confirm that they "were cleared to cross", he had stopped next to 31L towards the departure end of 31L. That's why the tower told him in essence, "Dude, we're departing 4L and you are stopped next to 31L."

Presumably, at some point they were given taxi instructions like Taxi to Rwy 4L via Bravo and Kilo.

Assuming that the crew had the JFK airport map up on the screen, they must have had it in their heads that they were going to 31L and just heard "clear to cross" without thinking about what runway they were crossing, nor looking left and right before crossing.

wjcandee wrote:

So it makes sense now. From the ATC audio I have listened to, AA was cleared to taxi along Bravo, and later, while still on Bravo, to cross 31L at Kilo in order to proceed along Kilo to the departure end of 4L (like Kilo One). No question the clearance was to cross 31L at Kilo, not 4L at Juliet. Juliet is never mentioned. For whatever reason, AA got to Juliet and made a left to cross 4L at Juliet. After being given the phone number for the pilot deviation, by the time the AA captain tried to confirm that they "were cleared to cross", he had stopped next to 31L near the departure end of 31L. That's why the tower told him in essence, "Dude, we're departing 4L and you are stopped next to the end of 31L."

Assuming that the crew had the JFK airport map up on the screen, they must have had it in their heads that they were going to 31L and just heard "clear to cross" without thinking about what runway they were crossing, nor looking left and right before crossing.

I was watching FR24 when this happened and even though 4L was being used there were several departures from 31L too. I suppose it’s possible the AA crew also saw that while proceeding along Bravo and it might have exacerbated their confusion. Still no excuse but maybe another small factor.

https://simpleflying.com/american-airlines-pilots-concerned-protocol-changes/#cockpit-protocol

I have no idea what happened with this particular incident but thought I'd post this.

This article is from Jan 7th. The end of the first paragraph states "APA argues that the airline has failed to sufficiently train pilots on the new protocol, stating that it may lead to future safety hazards."

Friday the 13th

I’d want to know the state of the REL when AA106 started to cross 4L. I categorize these sort of mistakes based upon what additional safety measures might have been ignored. If it wasn’t activated at the time of crossing, the flight crew can be salvaged with retraining. If it was, that mistake is unforgivable.

Stout wrote:

I’d want to know the state of the REL when AA106 started to cross 4L. I categorize these sort of mistakes based upon what additional safety measures might have been ignored. If it wasn’t activated at the time of crossing, the flight crew can be salvaged with retraining. If it was, that mistake is unforgivable.

Good point. This document shows taxiway Juliet has Runway Entrance Lights for Runway 4L so it is a good question if the Juliet 4L RELs were active and red with Delta lined up on 4L.

Had red “stop bar lights” been activated at the J and 4L intersection (I can’t imagine the crew would intentionally cross these), as well as “follow the greens” ATC ground procedures been available, this incident would not have happened.

Unfortunately “Follow the greens”, in which the green centerline lights are illuminated (even in daytime) only along the intended taxi route of the aircraft as opposed to having every taxiway lit up, is not used in the US.


These will prove to be holes in the slice of cheese.

Not sure if this is 100% accurate, but gives a good visual overview of essentially what happened.

https://youtu.be/nsFIHKkN2oU

SumChristianus wrote:

The most interesting thing to me is that ATC let AA106 continue on to LHR. I guess since there was no real harm done, there's no reason not to let them go, but it still seems weird to not have a more immediate debrief.

Do the controllers ever make that decision. I can't think of any runway incursion incident where they made that decision.

RossW wrote:

Not sure if this is 100% accurate, but gives a good visual overview of essentially what happened.

https://youtu.be/nsFIHKkN2oU

So they were told to call a number. In other instances were the pilots allowed to continue with the trip? I would think that the event would cloud their judgment. I know in my case it would be stuck in my head thinking over and over what I did wrong and not focus clearly.