For the past couple of months Avianca has been facing a firestorm of negative media coverage in the Spanish language media and an outpouring on social media of customer service complaints, which has been only increasing. 

The airline has faced growing outrage from passengers regarding the elimination of business class, new slimline seats, onboard service, high baggage fees, lost baggage, ticket refunds with hundreds of complaints on social media. 

In the latest criticism a passenger complained on Twitter about a flight from SAL to SFO, a nearly 6 hour flight where only water was available for $3. While Avianca has tried to defend their new direction, they are under pressure for their transition from a legacy carrier to a barebones LCC while still offering high ticket prices. 

https://elpais.com/america-colombia/202 ... 1674239159

https://www.crhoy.com/nacionales/que-pa ... -en-redes/

dcajet wrote:

Already being discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1480039

Not only Colombia aviation. For ex-TACA central american customers, the decline has been spectacular, from a very well-managed airline with great on board service to the hard-to beat-worst it has become. At least Spirit has low fares. The current management at least is succeeding in driving, or flying, the airline to the ground!

asuflyer wrote:

For the past couple of months Avianca has been facing a firestorm of negative media coverage in the Spanish language media and an outpouring on social media of customer service complaints, which has been only increasing. 

The airline has faced growing outrage from passengers regarding the elimination of business class, new slimline seats, onboard service, high baggage fees, lost baggage, ticket refunds with hundreds of complaints on social media. 

In the latest criticism a passenger complained on Twitter about a flight from SAL to SFO, a nearly 6 hour flight where only water was available for $3. While Avianca has tried to defend their new direction, they are under pressure for their transition from a legacy carrier to a barebones LCC while still offering high ticket prices. 

https://elpais.com/america-colombia/202 ... 1674239159

https://www.crhoy.com/nacionales/que-pa ... -en-redes/

For the other person about it being discussed elsewhere, I don't see it being discussed. Plus this deals with the Central American sector with SAL to the West Coast (LAX, SFO, ONT)

I flew SAL to ONT (which is an 5 - 5hr and 25 minute flight) last November in business class or whatever was left of it. The flight attendants warned us in advance that the in-flight service would be charged in December. Most of us were not that pleased with the announcement.

Checked their menu and even their blankets they're charging $9. I'm like no way!

Glad there is an uproar since it's understandable to charge in-flight service for a two to four-hour flight since some of the American carriers do it. Though for a Five to six-hour flight from SAL to SFO, ONT, and LAX is a bit much. I do hope people keep the uproar so at least this sector gets the in-flight service restored free of charge like the transatlantic service and LAX to BOG.

At this junction, AV is competing with Volaris which offers the same service. Like why even bother flying with AV? They'll drive traffic to UA and DL from LAX and ONT if they keep this up.

How would this affect them being a star alliance member with an LCC model? I’d be really bummed to have a business class ticket booked thru UA only to get stuck on an AV segment with no premium cabin and BOB product.

nine4nine wrote:

How would this affect them being a star alliance member with an LCC model? I’d be really bummed to have a business class ticket booked thru UA only to get stuck on an AV segment with no premium cabin and BOB product.

I doubt it makes any difference to Star Alliance. Plenty of carriers have BoB product, pay for luggage etc. and don’t offer premium cabins on all flights.

The same whining when LA-JJ moved to a LCC business model for domestic and short-haul international. Time to move on. No way any country in South America can sustain healthy full service airline.

winGl3t wrote:

The same whining when LA-JJ moved to a LCC business model for domestic and short-haul international. Time to move on. No way any country in South America can sustain healthy full service airline.

Would you say that COPA's model is unsustainable ?

ratp101 wrote:

winGl3t wrote:

The same whining when LA-JJ moved to a LCC business model for domestic and short-haul international. Time to move on. No way any country in South America can sustain healthy full service airline.

Would you say that COPA's model is unsustainable ?

I assure if someone was to set up a ULCC based in PTY and doing the same thing they are doing. Then yes, CM’s model would be unsustainable.

ratp101 wrote:

winGl3t wrote:

The same whining when LA-JJ moved to a LCC business model for domestic and short-haul international. Time to move on. No way any country in South America can sustain healthy full service airline.

Would you say that COPA's model is unsustainable ?

Except Copa is not in South America. Latin America, yes. But its specifically Central America. I don't agree no full service airline can be sustained in South America, though; hard, but I think possible. I'd also note that Copa's South American (Colombian) subsidiary was restructured to a LCC (Wingo).

ratp101 wrote:

winGl3t wrote:

The same whining when LA-JJ moved to a LCC business model for domestic and short-haul international. Time to move on. No way any country in South America can sustain healthy full service airline.

Would you say that COPA's model is unsustainable ?

Copa is not based in South America.

Airlines in most South American coutries have to to deal with inflated costs (1 liter of aviation fuel in Brazil is 35% higher than the same fuel in the US), higly devaluated currencies (making income in pesos or real, but dealing with many costs and debts is USD), volatile political and economic environmet (look at recent political protests in many countries in the region), LCC and ULCC competition on domestic markets and low disposable income of most of the population.

And lately also having to compete on international routes to US or Europe while the competition of first world countries received billions of USD in subsidies to survive during COVID.

I have experience in the industry, and running airlines in the region is way more challenging than doing the same in Europe or North America.

ALL airlines are having issues. I know Avianca has lowered their standards, but we need to put things in context. Look at the world's 10 most unreliable airlines. Avianca is not there

https://airwaysmag.com/10-most-unreliab ... T4aWIxA0XI

Also, for all people bashing Avianca, Avianca was the 6th most punctual airline in the world last year. Flights were on time 83.48 % of the time (Avianca had 144525 flights in 2022)

https://airwaysmag.com/top-10-2022-most ... qxVHik0Z3E

If somebody does not like their new service - what other choices available ?

ratp101 wrote:

winGl3t wrote:

The same whining when LA-JJ moved to a LCC business model for domestic and short-haul international. Time to move on. No way any country in South America can sustain healthy full service airline.

Would you say that COPA's model is unsustainable ?

Copa model is unique, with a sole hub, a efficient management with 737 only, except a few E-Jets whose they are being withdrawal, and has one of lowest CASK in Latin America. I flew them and don't say it's neither a full service carrier or LCC, maybe a hybrid model.

Regarding Avianca, I think the main issue was the changes were so fast and the customer did not recognize. They have a challenge scenario, with LCC and ULCC in the local market, a Copa doing a good job at PTY, LATAM Colombia gaining market-share. Today, I say the colombian market is the most competitive in Latin America.

schernov wrote:

If somebody does not like their new service - what other choices available ?

Rent a private jet like the big boys do

PB26 wrote:

ratp101 wrote:

winGl3t wrote:

The same whining when LA-JJ moved to a LCC business model for domestic and short-haul international. Time to move on. No way any country in South America can sustain healthy full service airline.

Would you say that COPA's model is unsustainable ?

Copa model is unique, with a sole hub, a efficient management with 737 only, except a few E-Jets whose they are being withdrawal, and has one of lowest CASK in Latin America. I flew them and don't say it's neither a full service carrier or LCC, maybe a hybrid model.

Regarding Avianca, I think the main issue was the changes were so fast and the customer did not recognize. They have a challenge scenario, with LCC and ULCC in the local market, a Copa doing a good job at PTY, LATAM Colombia gaining market-share. Today, I say the colombian market is the most competitive in Latin America.

I think that the Mexican market is even more competitive, AM has 150 planes, Volaris 120 and Viva 70 whereas in Colombia Avianca is far larger than its competitors. Also Mexico is flooded with US carriers that dominate the transborder market.

I'm using the mexican market because AM is an example of a traditional airline (full service no longer exists anywhere anymore) facing ULCC competitors but staying true to the traditional model: hub and spoke, no BOB, free meals on intl, business class and so on...

Avianca chose ULCC experience with legacy costs, instead AM chose a more traditional approach at the expense of losing market share in the local market to the point that they abandoned almost every local route outside MEX.

It will be interesting to see which model deliver better results for both the companies and passengers.

I flew LATAM today and they gave me a sandwich on a 25 minute flight in economy. I wouldn’t call LATAM a LCC.

schernov wrote:

If somebody does not like their new service - what other choices available ?

When it is in reference to SAL, they have multiple carriers going to the US to multiple cities:
AA
UA
DL
NK
F9

Europe connection is through IB to MAD if I recall correctly.

They also have AM service to Mexico, Copa to PTY, there is still a Honduran B732 that goes to Roatan (I LOVE seeing that plane!), I may have missed one or two.

Then you have the new SAL based Volaris El Salvador which came with a lot of coverage in the media up to President Bukele himself. It really looks like they want an LCC TACA to be the official airline in El Salvador. What is odd is that that while Volaris El Salvador has aircraft with the flag of El Salvador (A320neo) on it, Avianca has a "Surf City" aircraft promoting the recent push for Libertad/El Zonte, El Sunzal, and others in the immediate region as beach/vacation/surfing destinations (although I prefer Costa del Sol further south). They expanded from their original destinations in Mexico into the USA, and will probably continue to expand with the terminal expansion which REALLY modernized the experience at SAL.

So, for El Salvador at least, there are options... depending on where you are going. I do know quite a few coworkers who have to commute to SAL like me (US-SAL) that have put Avianca on their "nope" list and will even take connections with layovers to avoid them. I have heard similar from friends in SAL that they now avoid Avianca heading to the US.

PB26 wrote:

ratp101 wrote:

winGl3t wrote:

The same whining when LA-JJ moved to a LCC business model for domestic and short-haul international. Time to move on. No way any country in South America can sustain healthy full service airline.

Would you say that COPA's model is unsustainable ?

Copa model is unique, with a sole hub, a efficient management with 737 only, except a few E-Jets whose they are being withdrawal, and has one of lowest CASK in Latin America. I flew them and don't say it's neither a full service carrier or LCC, maybe a hybrid model.

Regarding Avianca, I think the main issue was the changes were so fast and the customer did not recognize. They have a challenge scenario, with LCC and ULCC in the local market, a Copa doing a good job at PTY, LATAM Colombia gaining market-share. Today, I say the colombian market is the most competitive in Latin America.

Copa is quietly playing both sides. I have Presidential status and have witnessed pre and post CV-19 service. Eco used to bring you a decent tray of food and a glass of wine. Today, the tray is smaller, no dry bread and no wine. They also played accordion with the rear seats, squashed them together and left the front for the premier customers. No more blankets; free or otherwise. On the other hand, their Business class and product has not changed; maybe the dessert carts were sent to Victorville. Also upped mileage requirements to reach status. In short, they have been smart not to "cheapen" their name and be seen as an LCC. And their prices vary in tandem with everyone else's.

proudpilot94 wrote:

I flew LATAM today and they gave me a sandwich on a 25 minute flight in economy. I wouldn’t call LATAM a LCC.

In which cabin? AFAIK LATAM will give serve a small snack like a sandwich but in the premium economy cabin. Economy is just a pack of chips with no alcohol served. At least on LATAM Brazil, domestic services.

It seems there are now issues with purchased LifeMiles not posting and expiring automatically.

https://loyaltylobby.com/2023/01/26/avi ... ires-them/

720B wrote:

I know Avianca has lowered their standards, but we need to put things in context. Look at the world's 10 most unreliable airlines. Avianca is not there

https://airwaysmag.com/10-most-unreliab ... T4aWIxA0XI

OMG that's a junk article. The author didn't normalize flight problems or complaints for airline size. It's like he never took Math beyond 6th grade.

B6JFKH81 wrote:

schernov wrote:

If somebody does not like their new service - what other choices available ?

When it is in reference to SAL, they have multiple carriers going to the US to multiple cities:
AA
UA
DL
NK
F9

Europe connection is through IB to MAD if I recall correctly.

They also have AM service to Mexico, Copa to PTY, there is still a Honduran B732 that goes to Roatan (I LOVE seeing that plane!), I may have missed one or two.

Then you have the new SAL based Volaris El Salvador which came with a lot of coverage in the media up to President Bukele himself. It really looks like they want an LCC TACA to be the official airline in El Salvador. What is odd is that that while Volaris El Salvador has aircraft with the flag of El Salvador (A320neo) on it, Avianca has a "Surf City" aircraft promoting the recent push for Libertad/El Zonte, El Sunzal, and others in the immediate region as beach/vacation/surfing destinations (although I prefer Costa del Sol further south). They expanded from their original destinations in Mexico into the USA, and will probably continue to expand with the terminal expansion which REALLY modernized the experience at SAL.

So, for El Salvador at least, there are options... depending on where you are going. I do know quite a few coworkers who have to commute to SAL like me (US-SAL) that have put Avianca on their "nope" list and will even take connections with layovers to avoid them. I have heard similar from friends in SAL that they now avoid Avianca heading to the US.

Volaris El Salvador has targeted the lucrative stronghold routes of Avianca El Salvador to the U.S. and is making significant inroads. The Kriete family hold important participations in both companies, directly or indirectly. It seems that what they are losing in one pocket is going into another but it is hard to tell which one is more beneficial to them.

MIflyer12 wrote:

720B wrote:

I know Avianca has lowered their standards, but we need to put things in context. Look at the world's 10 most unreliable airlines. Avianca is not there

https://airwaysmag.com/10-most-unreliab ... T4aWIxA0XI

OMG that's a junk article. The author didn't normalize flight problems or complaints for airline size. It's like he never took Math beyond 6th grade.

You can only do that when you have an actual accurate number of complaints; something only the airline has access to.
The article might be somewhat sensationalistic; but not junk by any means, as it samples actual issues reported.

As long as people continue to tolerate airliners and companies giving their shareholders 100 units of return, vs 9 units prior to this weird energy era we are currently treading water in, this will continue.

People have a right to be outraged by what is happening at this airline, and others. They want a society where nothing is free, and where every item on a flight, yes, you will pay for. We have to stand up and say no.

LAXLHR wrote:

People have a right to be outraged by what is happening at this airline, and others. They want a society where nothing is free, and where every item on a flight, yes, you will pay for. We have to stand up and say no.

You can say no - by flying someone else. I don’t like ULCC service either, and I vote with my wallet and fly an airline with levels of service acceptable to me. It’s AV’s current business model and it won’t change unless they start losing revenue.

LAXLHR wrote:

As long as people continue to tolerate airliners and companies giving their shareholders 100 units of return, vs 9 units prior to this weird energy era we are currently treading water in, this will continue.

People have a right to be outraged by what is happening at this airline, and others. They want a society where nothing is free, and where every item on a flight, yes, you will pay for. We have to stand up and say no.

Flying is a privilege. Not a right. People want everything for free.
You enter into a contract of carriage with the carrier. You know ahead of time what you are getting into.
Plan for it,

AV's customers want full service but don't want to pay for it - boo hoo!
I'm not a fan of AV's current business model but it is clearly disclosed so these whining customers should have voted with their feet.

The descent into LLC territory is now being extended to long haul.

https://simpleflying.com/avianca-launch-a-la-carte-fares-europe/

usflyer msp wrote:

AV's customers want full service but don't want to pay for it - boo hoo!
I'm not a fan of AV's current business model but it is clearly disclosed so these whining customers should have voted with their feet.

While there is nothing wrong per se with aligning your product to the market segment(s) you want to serve (both GOL and Latam do that quite well, I think; BA long didn't offer a domestic business class product; ...), the problem with AV is that now the service is s**t but the prices haven't really gone down. Doesn't sound like a winning formula to me.

santi319 wrote:

ratp101 wrote:

winGl3t wrote:

The same whining when LA-JJ moved to a LCC business model for domestic and short-haul international. Time to move on. No way any country in South America can sustain healthy full service airline.

Would you say that COPA's model is unsustainable ?

I assure if someone was to set up a ULCC based in PTY and doing the same thing they are doing. Then yes, CM’s model would be unsustainable.

With the difference Copa already established that model in Panama La Nueva Aerolinea SA dba Wingo Panama with their own certificate. BLBSDQ, BLBHAV, BLBSJO, BLBBAQ and BLB CTG were move also I believe to Wingo Panama and more will be coming as need it to protect their PTY hub and themselves for low cost carriers or routes that from Panama makes sense to move to Wingo. Just my two cents and thought.

I'd normally agre but... I flew last year EDI-LON on BA and the W seats or whatever they call 'em where miserable. Your usual seat/blocked seat with tray/seat configuration with the same terrible pitch I "enjoyed" on Y on the first leg. Sometimes not even when you are willing to pay an extra the service is adequate. Like we say all the time, it's a race to the bottom. And if you have to pay 4x/5x the price of a Y, I can't blame travelers (sometimes not even J, but Y+ or W).

BangersAndMash wrote:

The descent into LLC territory is now being extended to long haul.

https://simpleflying.com/avianca-launch-a-la-carte-fares-europe/

Have they done away with business class service to Europe then? It is not very clear: one buys an XL fare and gets a business class seat? As it is the case now within the Americas?

usflyer msp wrote:

AV's customers want full service but don't want to pay for it - boo hoo!
I'm not a fan of AV's current business model but it is clearly disclosed so these whining customers should have voted with their feet.

Seems like the problem is with the marketing department. If you are going to take the goodies away, why not do it quietly, like every other airline that has squeezed their seats together and shrunk the size of each water bottle. Especially if prices have not followed. By advertising you are the latest and greatest LCC, one immediately associates LCC with low price.

stewartg wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

AV's customers want full service but don't want to pay for it - boo hoo!
I'm not a fan of AV's current business model but it is clearly disclosed so these whining customers should have voted with their feet.

Seems like the problem is with the marketing department. If you are going to take the goodies away, why not do it quietly, like every other airline that has squeezed their seats together and shrunk the size of each water bottle. Especially if prices have not followed. By advertising you are the latest and greatest LCC, one immediately associates LCC with low price.

From and within Colombia, there is massive overcapacity and the fares cannot go any lower. On some routes, the fares are as low as $10. I can't speak on the Central.America ops.

dcajet wrote:

BangersAndMash wrote:

The descent into LCC territory is now being extended to long haul.

https://simpleflying.com/avianca-launch-a-la-carte-fares-europe/

Have they done away with business class service to Europe then? It is not very clear: one buys an XL fare and gets a business class seat? As it is the case now within the Americas?

I agree with you, it's not very clear. Execution is really poor. The way I understand it, business class is still being offered.

What's really shocking though is the Small fare only gives you:
- a seat
- a piece of hand luggage to take onboard (likely with weight/size restrictions, although they don't go into detail)
- a 10kg bag in the hold
I assume they feed you too, but that's unclear from the fare description. Oh, and you earn miles (woohoo, lucky you!), although again, unclear if this is to a competitive rate. But no lounge access, priority check-in or boarding, and you'd better pack light! To me, that's not a business class experience.

I doubt CM minds the almost certain influx of Star Alliance traffic resulting from people trying to avoid AV. There aren’t many destinations where AVs routing through SAL is so much more convenient than CM+UA for North/South traffic. For Star the SAL hub could be completely ignored if the decreased service on AV pushes too many travelers to DL/AM/LA.

For the South American regional traffic the market dynamics are moving toward LCC.
AV almost certainly needs to get its costs down to match what JA and VH are doing. It appears that they’re doing that. Whether ticket prices follow will determine how passengers respond. It’s just like AA where it’s the worst of both worlds. Expensive no-frills travel. AA at least has a premium cabin so that OW elites don’t flee to Star and Skyteam.

Interesting how we can sit in the office for 3-4 hrs, in a hard chair and never take a sip or a snack; much less watch a video. But heavens forbid, we sit in an airplane and we immediately start looking for all the amenities.

This too, shall pass. In terms of service, AV will eventually align with local carriers for the local traffic and with the European carriers to cross the pond.

many321 wrote:

AV is competing with Volaris which offers the same service.

I didn't get this statement clearly.
For the case of San Salvador, N3 Volaris El Salvador is offering some limited routes where AV used to fly at this time: New York JFK, Washington and Los Angeles.
N3 had announced Ontario and Houston for 2023 and they will obviously face these same segments supplied by AV from SAL.

Regards.

SJOtoLIR wrote:

many321 wrote:

AV is competing with Volaris which offers the same service.

I didn't get this statement clearly.
For the case of San Salvador, N3 Volaris El Salvador is offering some limited routes where AV used to fly at this time: New York JFK, Washington and Los Angeles.
N3 had announced Ontario and Houston for 2023 and they will obviously face these same segments supplied by AV from SAL.

Regards.

I mean the fares and in-flight services offered by Volaris are almost the same as Avianca now. The only difference, Avianca has nicer premium seats than Volaris. The XS and S fare that Avianca offers are the same as Volaris's basic and classic fares. The issue is that many who fly Avianca haven't been told of the drastic changes the airline has done so once they reach the terminal they're shocked they bought a XS fare and need to pay for their carry-on of check-in luggage. Personally witnessed this on Avianca. However, with Volaris most know what they're getting themselves into and are not surprised by the charges or bring extra cash for the fees on the terminal or buying a meal on the flight.

AV announced in December 2021 that it successfully completed its financial restructuring process and emerged from Chapter 11 of the US bankruptcy code.
Like many airlines worldwide, after the devastating impact of covid-19, they're slowly trying to return to a profitable venture again. It won't be easy.
We all have noted the decrease of the level of service within the cabin: no more snacks and drinks for free, lack of in-flight entertainment and so forth.
We hopefully expect things would get better, in the mid-term.

SJOtoLIR wrote:

many321 wrote:

AV is competing with Volaris which offers the same service.

I didn't get this statement clearly.
For the case of San Salvador, N3 Volaris El Salvador is offering some limited routes where AV used to fly at this time: New York JFK, Washington and Los Angeles.
N3 had announced Ontario and Houston for 2023 and they will obviously face these same segments supplied by AV from SAL.

Regards.

+ SALSAPMIA effective March too, another AV non stop Honduran route operated in the past and abandoned now since last October

dcajet wrote:

BangersAndMash wrote:

The descent into LLC territory is now being extended to long haul.

https://simpleflying.com/avianca-launch-a-la-carte-fares-europe/

Have they done away with business class service to Europe then? It is not very clear: one buys an XL fare and gets a business class seat? As it is the case now within the Americas?

Nope, it doesnt matter what they call it, they need business class to remain in *A, by their rules.