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SQ22
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Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:17 pm

Welcome to the Australian Aviation Thread February 2023. Please continue your discussion and to post your news here.

Link to previous thread:

Australian Aviation Thread - January 2023
 
JJWess
Posts: 211
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:13 am

QF relaunched flights to HKG over the weekend. Nothing major but surprised no one mentioned it on here.
 
QF945
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:32 am

Ex-VA Boeing 777 VH-VPD ferried from Toowoomba to Brisbane this afternoon. Reported to be flying to Abu Dhabi tomorrow.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... d#2f09b40e
 
smi0006
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:30 pm

QF announced MEL-CGK 3 weekly on the 330. Bit of a surprise! Starting 16th April, rather soon too!

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... indonesia/
 
tullamarine
Posts: 3832
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:14 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:48 pm

smi0006 wrote:
QF announced MEL-CGK 3 weekly on the 330. Bit of a surprise! Starting 16th April, rather soon too!

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... indonesia/

Excellent news!! As a frequent traveller between MEL and CGK, I will be thrilled to be able to avoid having to go via SYD. It is always so frustrating flying to SYD then waiting a couple of hours for transfer and realising you are further away from CGK than when you started.

MEL-CGK was previously regularly operated by GA but it's currently down to weekly so not particularly useful.

I'm heading to CGK again next week. QF41 to CGK on Sunday and Monday and QF42 to SYD on a Friday are always full so there is definitely a market for the new direct service. I often have to head home via SIN or on Saturday morning via DPS connecting with JQ daylight flight. Neither is ideal as the SIN option means you have to fly out of CGK mid-afternoon Friday which, due to Jakarta's bonkers traffic, means Friday is a write-off and DPS option means an extra night's accom and getting a 7AM GA flight to DPS which makes for a very early start and a long day since the JQ flight doesn't land in MEL until after 9PM and is rarely on-time anyway.
 
Obzerva
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:11 pm

tullamarine wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
QF announced MEL-CGK 3 weekly on the 330. Bit of a surprise! Starting 16th April, rather soon too!

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... indonesia/

Excellent news!! As a frequent traveller between MEL and CGK, I will be thrilled to be able to avoid having to go via SYD. It is always so frustrating flying to SYD then waiting a couple of hours for transfer and realising you are further away from CGK than when you started.

MEL-CGK was previously regularly operated by GA but it's currently down to weekly so not particularly useful.

I'm heading to CGK again next week. QF41 to CGK on Sunday and Monday and QF42 to SYD on a Friday are always full so there is definitely a market for the new direct service. I often have to head home via SIN or on Saturday morning via DPS connecting with JQ daylight flight. Neither is ideal as the SIN option means you have to fly out of CGK mid-afternoon Friday which, due to Jakarta's bonkers traffic, means Friday is a write-off and DPS option means an extra night's accom and getting a 7AM GA flight to DPS which makes for a very early start and a long day since the JQ flight doesn't land in MEL until after 9PM and is rarely on-time anyway.


Just did a quick check for April; looks like GA is back up to 3 weekly MEL-CGK at that stage too
 
A350OZ
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:39 pm

smi0006 wrote:
QF announced MEL-CGK 3 weekly on the 330. Bit of a surprise! Starting 16th April, rather soon too!

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... indonesia/


A nice surprise and a very good addition.

Does the mean QF-JQ need to reduce seats offered into DPS to provide capacity for this under the bilateral?
 
Fuling
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:41 pm

smi0006 wrote:
QF announced MEL-CGK 3 weekly on the 330. Bit of a surprise! Starting 16th April, rather soon too!

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... indonesia/


Schedule as follows:

QF039 MEL 15:10 CGK 19:15 A330 357
QF040 CGK 21:00 MEL 06:40+1 A330 357

QF039/QF040 was more recently used for the seasonal Sydney-Sapporo service, but pairs nicely with Sydney's QF041/QF042.
 
jrfspa320
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:47 pm

Fuling wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
QF announced MEL-CGK 3 weekly on the 330. Bit of a surprise! Starting 16th April, rather soon too!

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... indonesia/


Schedule as follows:

QF039 MEL 15:10 CGK 19:15 A330 357
QF040 CGK 21:00 MEL 06:40+1 A330 357

QF039/QF040 was more recently used for the seasonal Sydney-Sapporo service, but pairs nicely with Sydney's QF041/QF042.


Nicer timing than the SYD flight actually with the later dept out of MEL
 
tullamarine
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Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:14 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:02 am

Fuling wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
QF announced MEL-CGK 3 weekly on the 330. Bit of a surprise! Starting 16th April, rather soon too!

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... indonesia/


Schedule as follows:

QF039 MEL 15:10 CGK 19:15 A330 357
QF040 CGK 21:00 MEL 06:40+1 A330 357

QF039/QF040 was more recently used for the seasonal Sydney-Sapporo service, but pairs nicely with Sydney's QF041/QF042.

Flight times are pretty much as expected and not too dissimilar from SYD when you taken the slightly shorter distance of the MEL service into account though obviously the travel time saving for MEL pax is about 4 hours each way.

I wonder if QF thought of doing this service without an overnight leg. Given the lack of curfew at MEL, it could've been
MEL 07:10 CGK 11:15
CGK 13:00 MEL 23:40
QF seems very averse to running daylight services out of Asia.
 
jrfspa320
Posts: 1010
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:07 am

tullamarine wrote:
Fuling wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
QF announced MEL-CGK 3 weekly on the 330. Bit of a surprise! Starting 16th April, rather soon too!

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... indonesia/


Schedule as follows:

QF039 MEL 15:10 CGK 19:15 A330 357
QF040 CGK 21:00 MEL 06:40+1 A330 357

QF039/QF040 was more recently used for the seasonal Sydney-Sapporo service, but pairs nicely with Sydney's QF041/QF042.

Flight times are pretty much as expected and not too dissimilar from SYD when you taken the slightly shorter distance of the MEL service into account though obviously the travel time saving for MEL pax is about 4 hours each way.

I wonder if QF thought of doing this service without an overnight leg. Given the lack of curfew at MEL, it could've been
MEL 07:10 CGK 11:15
CGK 13:00 MEL 23:40
QF seems very averse to running daylight services out of Asia.


With the lack of widebody aircraft, they need the overnight flight for utilization.
 
myki
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:46 am

jrfspa320 wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
Fuling wrote:

Schedule as follows:

QF039 MEL 15:10 CGK 19:15 A330 357
QF040 CGK 21:00 MEL 06:40+1 A330 357

QF039/QF040 was more recently used for the seasonal Sydney-Sapporo service, but pairs nicely with Sydney's QF041/QF042.

Flight times are pretty much as expected and not too dissimilar from SYD when you taken the slightly shorter distance of the MEL service into account though obviously the travel time saving for MEL pax is about 4 hours each way.

I wonder if QF thought of doing this service without an overnight leg. Given the lack of curfew at MEL, it could've been
MEL 07:10 CGK 11:15
CGK 13:00 MEL 23:40
QF seems very averse to running daylight services out of Asia.


With the lack of widebody aircraft, they need the overnight flight for utilization.

Ah yes, that makes sense.

Daylight out of Asia there is the EK-codeshare on SIN-MEL and some JQ out of DPS. It would of course be nice to have more (especially for those that can't sleep on overnight flights) but understandably QF can only make use of the resources that they have.
 
jrfspa320
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:53 am

myki wrote:
jrfspa320 wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
Flight times are pretty much as expected and not too dissimilar from SYD when you taken the slightly shorter distance of the MEL service into account though obviously the travel time saving for MEL pax is about 4 hours each way.

I wonder if QF thought of doing this service without an overnight leg. Given the lack of curfew at MEL, it could've been
MEL 07:10 CGK 11:15
CGK 13:00 MEL 23:40
QF seems very averse to running daylight services out of Asia.


With the lack of widebody aircraft, they need the overnight flight for utilization.

Ah yes, that makes sense.

Daylight out of Asia there is the EK-codeshare on SIN-MEL and some JQ out of DPS. It would of course be nice to have more (especially for those that can't sleep on overnight flights) but understandably QF can only make use of the resources that they have.


Hopefully when the longhaul A321s arrive QF might consider some daytime flights ex asia.
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:12 am

jrfspa320 wrote:
myki wrote:
jrfspa320 wrote:

With the lack of widebody aircraft, they need the overnight flight for utilization.

Ah yes, that makes sense.

Daylight out of Asia there is the EK-codeshare on SIN-MEL and some JQ out of DPS. It would of course be nice to have more (especially for those that can't sleep on overnight flights) but understandably QF can only make use of the resources that they have.


Hopefully when the longhaul A321s arrive QF might consider some daytime flights ex asia.


They could take over the CNS-NRT/KIX flights from JQ but not with the first batch of A321s (XLR) as they are in the domestic/short haul international config with J recliners.
 
tullamarine
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:13 am

jrfspa320 wrote:
myki wrote:
jrfspa320 wrote:

With the lack of widebody aircraft, they need the overnight flight for utilization.

Ah yes, that makes sense.

Daylight out of Asia there is the EK-codeshare on SIN-MEL and some JQ out of DPS. It would of course be nice to have more (especially for those that can't sleep on overnight flights) but understandably QF can only make use of the resources that they have.


Hopefully when the longhaul A321s arrive QF might consider some daytime flights ex asia.

Yes, when the internationally configured A321XLRs (2nd batch) arrive, you'd think this new service will be one of the first to be changed to the XLR and, maybe then, an all front-of-clock service will be considered.
 
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EK413
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:56 am

A350OZ wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
QF announced MEL-CGK 3 weekly on the 330. Bit of a surprise! Starting 16th April, rather soon too!

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... indonesia/


A nice surprise and a very good addition.

Does the mean QF-JQ need to reduce seats offered into DPS to provide capacity for this under the bilateral?

Seat capacity applied to DPS not CGK as far as I know it…
I believe QF CGK services need to comply with strict OTP otherwise QF can lose their slots in/out of Jakarta.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
tullamarine
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:08 am

EK413 wrote:
A350OZ wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
QF announced MEL-CGK 3 weekly on the 330. Bit of a surprise! Starting 16th April, rather soon too!

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... indonesia/


A nice surprise and a very good addition.

Does the mean QF-JQ need to reduce seats offered into DPS to provide capacity for this under the bilateral?

Seat capacity applied to DPS not CGK as far as I know it…
I believe QF CGK services need to comply with strict OTP otherwise QF can lose their slots in/out of Jakarta.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, gates are at a premium at CGK T3 in the evening. If the QF flight is late, it will be forced to park at a remote stand with passengers bussed to terminal. Given dusk tends to be when the storms come in, bussing is often a fairly miserable experience.

Departures often involve being in a long queue at the end of the runway despite both parallel runways being active. Sometimes it may take well over 45 minutes between leaving the terminal until actually taking off.
 
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EK413
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:03 am

tullamarine wrote:
EK413 wrote:
A350OZ wrote:

A nice surprise and a very good addition.

Does the mean QF-JQ need to reduce seats offered into DPS to provide capacity for this under the bilateral?

Seat capacity applied to DPS not CGK as far as I know it…
I believe QF CGK services need to comply with strict OTP otherwise QF can lose their slots in/out of Jakarta.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, gates are at a premium at CGK T3 in the evening. If the QF flight is late, it will be forced to park at a remote stand with passengers bussed to terminal. Given dusk tends to be when the storms come in, bussing is often a fairly miserable experience.

Departures often involve being in a long queue at the end of the runway despite both parallel runways being active. Sometimes it may take well over 45 minutes between leaving the terminal until actually taking off.

Yes agreed the bus experience can be miserable but not for the avgeek ;)

Have sat on the taxi way for up to 30-40 mins awaiting our turn to depart and other occasions was a straight roll and take off… A hit or miss with CGK, even with the 3rd parallel runway surprised CGK is still slot constraint…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
JJWess
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:25 am

Wait how do we know the config of the first batch of A321XLR’s? Can someone source me?
Not denying it’s the truth I just thought that wasn’t public info yet lol
 
a320fan
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:18 am

JJWess wrote:
Wait how do we know the config of the first batch of A321XLR’s? Can someone source me?
Not denying it’s the truth I just thought that wasn’t public info yet lol

20J 180Y was announced when the order for the initial 20 was signed. We don’t know what actual seats will be fitted but it’s obvious it will be domestic style recliners with that config. It is not known if future batches may be ordered with a different configuration or not nor what it may be. Anything on that is pure speculation.
 
DeltaB717
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:31 am

EK413 wrote:
A350OZ wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
QF announced MEL-CGK 3 weekly on the 330. Bit of a surprise! Starting 16th April, rather soon too!

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... indonesia/


A nice surprise and a very good addition.

Does the mean QF-JQ need to reduce seats offered into DPS to provide capacity for this under the bilateral?

Seat capacity applied to DPS not CGK as far as I know it…
I believe QF CGK services need to comply with strict OTP otherwise QF can lose their slots in/out of Jakarta.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The capacity restriction applies to flights at SYD/MEL/AVV/BNE/PER to all points in Indonesia. So yes, in order for this new QF service to operate, the Qantas Group will need to adjust its other services to Indonesia down somehow - my guess is moving some of the JQ services from B787 to A321neo.
 
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EK413
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:47 am

DeltaB717 wrote:
EK413 wrote:
A350OZ wrote:

A nice surprise and a very good addition.

Does the mean QF-JQ need to reduce seats offered into DPS to provide capacity for this under the bilateral?

Seat capacity applied to DPS not CGK as far as I know it…
I believe QF CGK services need to comply with strict OTP otherwise QF can lose their slots in/out of Jakarta.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The capacity restriction applies to flights at SYD/MEL/AVV/BNE/PER to all points in Indonesia. So yes, in order for this new QF service to operate, the Qantas Group will need to adjust its other services to Indonesia down somehow - my guess is moving some of the JQ services from B787 to A321neo.

Thanks for confirming, have found the link

https://www.iasc.gov.au/cases/2022-aug/ ... ugust-2022

Curious to see where seats would be sacrificed to accommodate the MEL-CGK service.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
tullamarine
Posts: 3832
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:14 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:11 am

EK413 wrote:
DeltaB717 wrote:
EK413 wrote:
Seat capacity applied to DPS not CGK as far as I know it…
I believe QF CGK services need to comply with strict OTP otherwise QF can lose their slots in/out of Jakarta.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The capacity restriction applies to flights at SYD/MEL/AVV/BNE/PER to all points in Indonesia. So yes, in order for this new QF service to operate, the Qantas Group will need to adjust its other services to Indonesia down somehow - my guess is moving some of the JQ services from B787 to A321neo.

Thanks for confirming, have found the link

https://www.iasc.gov.au/cases/2022-aug/ ... ugust-2022

Curious to see where seats would be sacrificed to accommodate the MEL-CGK service.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I assume most is from DPS services though QF has been operating QF41/42 with an A333 quite a bit recently due to demand. Once the MEL services start, I'd expect the SYD services return to A332 only again. Across a week that could be freeing up to 315 seats depending on which A332s are used.
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:15 am

DeltaB717 wrote:
EK413 wrote:
A350OZ wrote:

A nice surprise and a very good addition.

Does the mean QF-JQ need to reduce seats offered into DPS to provide capacity for this under the bilateral?

Seat capacity applied to DPS not CGK as far as I know it…
I believe QF CGK services need to comply with strict OTP otherwise QF can lose their slots in/out of Jakarta.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The capacity restriction applies to flights at SYD/MEL/AVV/BNE/PER to all points in Indonesia. So yes, in order for this new QF service to operate, the Qantas Group will need to adjust its other services to Indonesia down somehow - my guess is moving some of the JQ services from B787 to A321neo.


If this had been in the works for a while then it seems surprising that QF backed down and let VA take the remaining allocation. If they had to proposed MEL-CGK I feel that would have been looked on more favourably than another flight to DPS. Of course QF were proposing DPS themselves, so this does seem like quite a quick decision. Jetstar reducing capacity seems like the most likely explanation for how they are creating space for this route.
 
zkncj
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:20 am

DeltaB717 wrote:
EK413 wrote:
A350OZ wrote:

A nice surprise and a very good addition.

Does the mean QF-JQ need to reduce seats offered into DPS to provide capacity for this under the bilateral?

Seat capacity applied to DPS not CGK as far as I know it…
I believe QF CGK services need to comply with strict OTP otherwise QF can lose their slots in/out of Jakarta.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The capacity restriction applies to flights at SYD/MEL/AVV/BNE/PER to all points in Indonesia. So yes, in order for this new QF service to operate, the Qantas Group will need to adjust its other services to Indonesia down somehow - my guess is moving some of the JQ services from B787 to A321neo.


Does VA’s new OOL-DPS service is outside of the seat allocation?

The seat allocation, does seem like bit of a odd old outdated bilateral. Surely Australia/Indionesia could workout a better deal together.

The more flights into DPS from Australia, surely the better it is for there economy .
 
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EK413
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:36 am

tullamarine wrote:
EK413 wrote:
DeltaB717 wrote:

The capacity restriction applies to flights at SYD/MEL/AVV/BNE/PER to all points in Indonesia. So yes, in order for this new QF service to operate, the Qantas Group will need to adjust its other services to Indonesia down somehow - my guess is moving some of the JQ services from B787 to A321neo.

Thanks for confirming, have found the link

https://www.iasc.gov.au/cases/2022-aug/ ... ugust-2022

Curious to see where seats would be sacrificed to accommodate the MEL-CGK service.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I assume most is from DPS services though QF has been operating QF41/42 with an A333 quite a bit recently due to demand. Once the MEL services start, I'd expect the SYD services return to A332 only again. Across a week that could be freeing up to 315 seats depending on which A332s are used.

Makes logical sense with A321NEO’s taking over the B787 DPS services this will make room for MEL-CGK. I’d say with the introduction of MEL-CGK QF will reduce SYD-CGK to 4 weekly as I believe the route was progressing to 5 weekly I believe pre-covid…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
vhebb
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:51 am

SYD-CGK was daily pre covid, and has been daily again for a while now.
 
DeltaB717
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:59 am

zkncj wrote:
Does VA’s new OOL-DPS service is outside of the seat allocation?

The seat allocation, does seem like bit of a odd old outdated bilateral. Surely Australia/Indionesia could workout a better deal together.

The more flights into DPS from Australia, surely the better it is for there economy .


Yep, OOL-DPS is outside the capacity restrictions.

On the one hand, you're right that it's an outdated bilateral. On the other hand, air services agreements are often used to protect one party's interests in trade, etc. from being overwhelmed by the competitive position of the other party/ies - this is actually pretty common (think France and Qatar, and also one of the reasons we're yet to reach a single bilateral with the EU).

tullamarine wrote:
I assume most is from DPS services though QF has been operating QF41/42 with an A333 quite a bit recently due to demand. Once the MEL services start, I'd expect the SYD services return to A332 only again. Across a week that could be freeing up to 315 seats depending on which A332s are used.


Good point re the QF A330s on DPS at the moment, although from memory those were made possible by downgauging the JQ flights as well.
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:17 am

zkncj wrote:
DeltaB717 wrote:
EK413 wrote:
Seat capacity applied to DPS not CGK as far as I know it…
I believe QF CGK services need to comply with strict OTP otherwise QF can lose their slots in/out of Jakarta.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The capacity restriction applies to flights at SYD/MEL/AVV/BNE/PER to all points in Indonesia. So yes, in order for this new QF service to operate, the Qantas Group will need to adjust its other services to Indonesia down somehow - my guess is moving some of the JQ services from B787 to A321neo.


Does VA’s new OOL-DPS service is outside of the seat allocation?

The seat allocation, does seem like bit of a odd old outdated bilateral. Surely Australia/Indionesia could workout a better deal together.

The more flights into DPS from Australia, surely the better it is for there economy .


OOL considered 'regional', if BNE required increased capacity in DPS, any of the 3 Australian carriers could theoretically start MCY-DPS (although on a rotation schedule e.g BNE-DPS-MCY-DPS-BNE).

I'd have to echo everyone else's thoughts here. Aus/Indonesia is definitely outdated for a bilateral.
 
lsmi4126
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:21 am

QF A380 VH-OQL is presumably under test at AUH today.

QF6024 from Abu Dhabi https://fr24.com/QFA6024/2f0cf96b
 
evanb
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:03 am

EK413 wrote:
Does the mean QF-JQ need to reduce seats offered into DPS to provide capacity for this under the bilateral?

Seat capacity applied to DPS not CGK as far as I know it…
I believe QF CGK services need to comply with strict OTP otherwise QF can lose their slots in/out of Jakarta.[/quote]

The bilateral has a fixed weekly cap of 25,000 seats for each country between Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth each way to/from all points in Indonesia. Additionally, 2,500 more weekly seats if flight operates via another point in Australia or beyond Indonesia. Unlimited capacity to/from any other point in Australia. QF/JQ can use their allocation as they wish.

IATA consider CGK a level 2 airport in terms of slots, so I don't anticipate QF have slot issues. DPS is a level 3, so totally different issue. From what I understand, CGK as a level 2 wouldn't doesn't have fixed slots and doesn't use a coordination mechanism, whereas DPS does (level 2 is facilitation, level 3 is coordination).
 
evanb
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:15 am

DeltaB717 wrote:
On the one hand, you're right that it's an outdated bilateral. On the other hand, air services agreements are often used to protect one party's interests in trade, etc. from being overwhelmed by the competitive position of the other party/ies - this is actually pretty common (think France and Qatar, and also one of the reasons we're yet to reach a single bilateral with the EU).


It's always seemed to me to be shortsighted from Indonesia. All it does it funnel traffic through Singapore (who have open skies), and makes Indonesia more difficult and costly to get to.

EU have a single internal market and do have a single bilateral with some countries (e.g. US), but it's certainly been a challenge since the EU requires all member states to agree. However, the EU agreed an open skies with Qatar in 2021, although UAE does not, even though it has open skies agreements with 20 EU members. Australia does not have a single bilateral with the EU because there isn't a huge business case for it.

I'm not sure the point about France. It has an EU open skies, EU in turn has open skies with the US, open skies with Qatar and Turkey. The only one I could really think would worry them is the UAE, but even then France has a more liberal agreement than many other EU countries like Germany. EK fly 3x daily A380 to CDG, daily flights to LYS, NCE, and EY have daily CDG flights. And there are still unutilised frequencies.
 
qf2048
Posts: 245
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:16 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:48 am

DeltaB717 wrote:
zkncj wrote:
Does VA’s new OOL-DPS service is outside of the seat allocation?

The seat allocation, does seem like bit of a odd old outdated bilateral. Surely Australia/Indionesia could workout a better deal together.

The more flights into DPS from Australia, surely the better it is for there economy .


Yep, OOL-DPS is outside the capacity restrictions.

On the one hand, you're right that it's an outdated bilateral. On the other hand, air services agreements are often used to protect one party's interests in trade, etc. from being overwhelmed by the competitive position of the other party/ies - this is actually pretty common (think France and Qatar, and also one of the reasons we're yet to reach a single bilateral with the EU).

tullamarine wrote:
I assume most is from DPS services though QF has been operating QF41/42 with an A333 quite a bit recently due to demand. Once the MEL services start, I'd expect the SYD services return to A332 only again. Across a week that could be freeing up to 315 seats depending on which A332s are used.


Good point re the QF A330s on DPS at the moment, although from memory those were made possible by downgauging the JQ flights as well.


QF 43/44 has reverted back to B738 a few days ago.
 
qf2048
Posts: 245
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:16 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:51 am

Currently an extra QF SYD-SIN in flight. QF 83, a B789 (ZNJ)
 
User avatar
EK413
Posts: 6130
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:11 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:10 am

Just read the below appears the QF A380 will return to HKG…

Qantas A380 to Hong Kong

Qantas, which recently resumed scheduled flights to Hong Kong, is set to significantly increase capacity. The airline’s current four times weekly A330 service from Sydney, will be upgraded to daily services using the Airbus A380. This is scheduled to come into effect from 26 March 2023 and run until 18 June 2023.

Source: https://airlinehubbuzz.com/qantas-a380- ... 0Z9s5ozHlM


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 3649
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:10 pm

EK413 wrote:
Just read the below appears the QF A380 will return to HKG…

Qantas A380 to Hong Kong

Qantas, which recently resumed scheduled flights to Hong Kong, is set to significantly increase capacity. The airline’s current four times weekly A330 service from Sydney, will be upgraded to daily services using the Airbus A380. This is scheduled to come into effect from 26 March 2023 and run until 18 June 2023.

Source: https://airlinehubbuzz.com/qantas-a380- ... 0Z9s5ozHlM


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Given it comes at the expense of MEL-HKG, which will be pushed back, it certainly seems interesting.

At least CX has been building up on MEL-HKG.
 
QF744ER
Posts: 518
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:59 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:08 pm

qf2048 wrote:
Currently an extra QF SYD-SIN in flight. QF 83, a B789 (ZNJ)


Believe it’s heading to SIAEC at Changi for a maintenance check, some of the other 789’s have had their checks performed there in the past.

Speaking of 789’s I saw the wings on ZNA again recently, they look absolutely shocking on the upper surfaces.

Flying schedule has EBB and QPG set to return to service this month also. Interestingly EBB is set to rejoin the fleet just days before EBE is withdrawn for P2F conversion in Europe.
 
JJWess
Posts: 211
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:30 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:15 pm

EK413 wrote:
Just read the below appears the QF A380 will return to HKG…

Qantas A380 to Hong Kong

Qantas, which recently resumed scheduled flights to Hong Kong, is set to significantly increase capacity. The airline’s current four times weekly A330 service from Sydney, will be upgraded to daily services using the Airbus A380. This is scheduled to come into effect from 26 March 2023 and run until 18 June 2023.

Source: https://airlinehubbuzz.com/qantas-a380- ... 0Z9s5ozHlM


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I take it that MEL-LAX won’t be seeing the A380 for a while then
 
kriskim
Posts: 616
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:44 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:30 pm

QF744ER wrote:
qf2048 wrote:
Currently an extra QF SYD-SIN in flight. QF 83, a B789 (ZNJ)


Believe it’s heading to SIAEC at Changi for a maintenance check, some of the other 789’s have had their checks performed there in the past.

Speaking of 789’s I saw the wings on ZNA again recently, they look absolutely shocking on the upper surfaces.

Flying schedule has EBB and QPG set to return to service this month also. Interestingly EBB is set to rejoin the fleet just days before EBE is withdrawn for P2F conversion in Europe.


I recently flew Scoot and I was equally shocked, it didn’t look good at all. Boeing needs to find a solution asap.
 
getluv
Posts: 712
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:11 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:38 pm

MEL-LAX is still going daily from NS23 so that’s where the 787s are being redirected.

JJWess wrote:
EK413 wrote:
Just read the below appears the QF A380 will return to HKG…

Qantas A380 to Hong Kong

Qantas, which recently resumed scheduled flights to Hong Kong, is set to significantly increase capacity. The airline’s current four times weekly A330 service from Sydney, will be upgraded to daily services using the Airbus A380. This is scheduled to come into effect from 26 March 2023 and run until 18 June 2023.

Source: https://airlinehubbuzz.com/qantas-a380- ... 0Z9s5ozHlM


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I take it that MEL-LAX won’t be seeing the A380 for a while then

I think it’s a sensible move considering ex AU travel to US is still lukewarm because of the strong USD. With EK adding capacity between MEL-SIN it was probably a good idea for QF to downgrade considering they’ll still be able to sell tickets on the EK service.
 
NZ516
Posts: 2125
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:00 pm

SCFlyer wrote:
zkncj wrote:
DeltaB717 wrote:

The capacity restriction applies to flights at SYD/MEL/AVV/BNE/PER to all points in Indonesia. So yes, in order for this new QF service to operate, the Qantas Group will need to adjust its other services to Indonesia down somehow - my guess is moving some of the JQ services from B787 to A321neo.


Does VA’s new OOL-DPS service is outside of the seat allocation?

The seat allocation, does seem like bit of a odd old outdated bilateral. Surely Australia/Indionesia could workout a better deal together.

The more flights into DPS from Australia, surely the better it is for there economy .


OOL considered 'regional', if BNE required increased capacity in DPS, any of the 3 Australian carriers could theoretically start MCY-DPS (although on a rotation schedule e.g BNE-DPS-MCY-DPS-BNE).

I'd have to echo everyone else's thoughts here. Aus/Indonesia is definitely outdated for a bilateral.


I can see why it was easy then for JQ to increase ADL- DPS up to double daily as it's outside of the bilateral.
 
vhebb
Posts: 457
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:37 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:55 pm

So what's the plan with QFs MEL-HKG?

As most of us have been saying they don’t appear to have enough aircraft...
 
evanb
Posts: 1397
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:26 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:02 pm

NZ516 wrote:
I can see why it was easy then for JQ to increase ADL- DPS up to double daily as it's outside of the bilateral.


Indeed, partly why VA and JQ both fly ADL-DPS, JQ fly CNS-DPS and DRW-DPS, and VA OOL-DPS.
 
Tedjamvor
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:54 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:16 pm

Why is AVV included in the bilateral but not OOL? Seems as if they could use AVV to increase flights to DPS on JQ if it weren't.
 
TK773ER
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:08 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:49 pm

Ex Virgin 77W heading to AUH for Qatar Airways VH-VPD https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=4
Is VH-VPH the last one left on Aussie soil or has it already gone ? If so where ?
 
Obzerva
Posts: 707
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:48 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:00 am

evanb wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
I can see why it was easy then for JQ to increase ADL- DPS up to double daily as it's outside of the bilateral.


Indeed, partly why VA and JQ both fly ADL-DPS, JQ fly CNS-DPS and DRW-DPS, and VA OOL-DPS.


Would also explain why JQ gave TSV-DPS a crack and VA (XR) happily had PHE-DPS going for years
 
DeltaB717
Posts: 1783
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:49 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:26 am

evanb wrote:
DeltaB717 wrote:
On the one hand, you're right that it's an outdated bilateral. On the other hand, air services agreements are often used to protect one party's interests in trade, etc. from being overwhelmed by the competitive position of the other party/ies - this is actually pretty common (think France and Qatar, and also one of the reasons we're yet to reach a single bilateral with the EU).


It's always seemed to me to be shortsighted from Indonesia. All it does it funnel traffic through Singapore (who have open skies), and makes Indonesia more difficult and costly to get to.

EU have a single internal market and do have a single bilateral with some countries (e.g. US), but it's certainly been a challenge since the EU requires all member states to agree. However, the EU agreed an open skies with Qatar in 2021, although UAE does not, even though it has open skies agreements with 20 EU members. Australia does not have a single bilateral with the EU because there isn't a huge business case for it.

I'm not sure the point about France. It has an EU open skies, EU in turn has open skies with the US, open skies with Qatar and Turkey. The only one I could really think would worry them is the UAE, but even then France has a more liberal agreement than many other EU countries like Germany. EK fly 3x daily A380 to CDG, daily flights to LYS, NCE, and EY have daily CDG flights. And there are still unutilised frequencies.


It often is shortsighted, but it's viewed as protecting that country's interests and those of its own aviation industry. My comments (where I mentioned France, Qatar and the EU, as well as in relation to Indonesia) were specifically in relation to Australia's air services agreements with those partners.

Indonesia is reluctant to increase the capacity available to Australian carriers because its own carriers already can't keep up with QF/JQ/VA. If Indonesia allowed Australia to have, say, 10,000 more seats than we already do, that would likely just widen the gulf and leave Indonesian operators even further behind. Is it good for their hotels, restaurants, attractions, etc.? No. But Australian carriers have found and will continue to find ways to increase capacity to Indonesia within the confines of the current bilateral - e.g. VA starting OOL-DPS and the former CNS/TSV/PHE-DPS services. There are also 2,500 seats available for BNE/MEL/PER/SYD if our carriers are prepared to operate via or beyond to another Australian port, e.g. DRW, HBA, CBR...

Re France, Qantas and the Govt have been trying since the B789s were about to come into service to get additional capacity for Australian carriers to operate to France. Currently, that bilateral works on a 'units of capacity' basis which, when you do the sums, rules out a daily operation for even a 236-seat B789. France has dug its heals in and ultimately refused to budge, ergo QF has chosen not to serve France for now. Again, shortsighted and possibly detrimental to France's other tourism industries, but I guarantee Air France is behind the resistance because they don't have the ability to counter QF and would prefer to retain the relative attractiveness of being able to funnel their pax through SIN, ICN, etc. on codeshares.

Qatar is the same, but in reverse. It's no secret that QR wants additional capacity to BNE/MEL/PER/SYD, but Australia won't give it to them. Why? Because QF doesn't want to damage (a) its own services to Europe and (b) its relationship with EK. I don't know for sure, but I imagine VA has previously been against QR having greater access to Australia because of its relationship with EY, but that of course would all have changed when VA and QR formed their own relationship.
 
Thatcher
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:30 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:22 am

Tedjamvor wrote:
Why is AVV included in the bilateral but not OOL? Seems as if they could use AVV to increase flights to DPS on JQ if it weren't.


I have no inside knowledge, but would guess it's because AVV is a Melbourne airport and OOL is not a Brisbane airport - part of OOL's runway is actually in NSW, almost 100km from BNE in a straight line.

I would not be surprised if the Venn diagram of OOL's catchment / Greater Brisbane had very little overlap, and the opposite for AVV / Greater Melbourne.
 
User avatar
SCFlyer
Posts: 1590
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:14 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:27 am

DeltaB717 wrote:

Indonesia is reluctant to increase the capacity available to Australian carriers because its own carriers already can't keep up with QF/JQ/VA. If Indonesia allowed Australia to have, say, 10,000 more seats than we already do, that would likely just widen the gulf and leave Indonesian operators even further behind. Is it good for their hotels, restaurants, attractions, etc.? No. But Australian carriers have found and will continue to find ways to increase capacity to Indonesia within the confines of the current bilateral - e.g. VA starting OOL-DPS and the former CNS/TSV/PHE-DPS services. There are also 2,500 seats available for BNE/MEL/PER/SYD if our carriers are prepared to operate via or beyond to another Australian port, e.g. DRW, HBA, CBR...

..

Qatar is the same, but in reverse. It's no secret that QR wants additional capacity to BNE/MEL/PER/SYD, but Australia won't give it to them. Why? Because QF doesn't want to damage (a) its own services to Europe and (b) its relationship with EK. I don't know for sure, but I imagine VA has previously been against QR having greater access to Australia because of its relationship with EY, but that of course would all have changed when VA and QR formed their own relationship.


VA never operated CNS/TSV to DPS. VA did have a go at DRW-DPS for one season in NW (in 2019-2020, iirc), but it never came back during the pandemic. It was axed at the same time as the PHE-DPS service during the shutdowns.
 
moa999
Posts: 1283
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:37 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - February 2023

Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:35 am

And only a few years ago I suspect it was Qantas against the Aus-Indo bilateral.

Only a few years ago when Garuda flew daily SYD-CGK and Qantas was 3/4-wk.

Even today I suspect they don't want more capacity going to Lion/ Batik
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