Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
BWIAirport wrote:A week after announcing BWI, good to see the secondary metro areas getting this kind of attention. Not to mention this provides great access for all of South America to visit the Alamo.
CM has an opportunity to serve a similar purpose to US-South America travel as Icelandair and Play serve to US-Europe travel. Different markets of course, but something I don't believe has been done recently.
x1234 wrote:They need capacity into IAH/DFW first before MSY. Didn't they pull out of MSY?
x1234 wrote:They need capacity into IAH/DFW first before MSY. Didn't they pull out of MSY?
AAPilot48Heavy wrote:Well duh, everyone. Everyone knows they will fly to SAT because everyone wants to come see the Alamo.
LAX772LR wrote:It's odd, CM has a page dedicated to dates for relaunching previous destinations that were suspended in Covid, yet at the same time are launching all-new destinations beforehand.
Does make one wonder how dedicated they are to the former...
Kilgen wrote:Most of the pending destinations were destinations with less than 4x per week frequencies to mostly leisure destinations: HOG, LIR, MSY, PVR, REC, SLA, SSA and STI.
hohd wrote:If they start AUS or SAT service, some of the western suburbs of Houston area will consider using Copa to Central and South America. Hoping it is Austin, as AUS airport is closer than SAT airport to west Houston.
bchandl wrote:hohd wrote:If they start AUS or SAT service, some of the western suburbs of Houston area will consider using Copa to Central and South America. Hoping it is Austin, as AUS airport is closer than SAT airport to west Houston.
You would drive 4-5hrs round trip to Austin vs probably 90min RT to IAH just to take Copa over UA?????
BWIAirport wrote:A week after announcing BWI, good to see the secondary metro areas getting this kind of attention. Not to mention this provides great access for all of South America to visit the Alamo.
CM has an opportunity to serve a similar purpose to US-South America travel as Icelandair and Play serve to US-Europe travel. Different markets of course, but something I don't believe has been done recently.
LAXdude1023 wrote:As far as SAT goes, the numbers just aren't there without some sort of significant revenue guarantee. It also explains why Houston is such a significant hub to that region while its harder for DFW to have a foothold.
DFWGlobeTrotter wrote:BWIAirport wrote:A week after announcing BWI, good to see the secondary metro areas getting this kind of attention. Not to mention this provides great access for all of South America to visit the Alamo.
CM has an opportunity to serve a similar purpose to US-South America travel as Icelandair and Play serve to US-Europe travel. Different markets of course, but something I don't believe has been done recently.
Not sure if your Alamo reference is in jest, but with respect to secondary markets, I'm with you - it's apples and oranges, but I'm wondering if CM is trying to get access to the AUS market in a manner similar to what it's doing for the Washington market via BWI.
jasoncrh wrote:COPA already flies 2-3 times daily from IAD to Panama CityDFWGlobeTrotter wrote:BWIAirport wrote:A week after announcing BWI, good to see the secondary metro areas getting this kind of attention. Not to mention this provides great access for all of South America to visit the Alamo.
CM has an opportunity to serve a similar purpose to US-South America travel as Icelandair and Play serve to US-Europe travel. Different markets of course, but something I don't believe has been done recently.
Not sure if your Alamo reference is in jest, but with respect to secondary markets, I'm with you - it's apples and oranges, but I'm wondering if CM is trying to get access to the AUS market in a manner similar to what it's doing for the Washington market via BWI.
BWIAirport wrote:jasoncrh wrote:COPA already flies 2-3 times daily from IAD to Panama CityDFWGlobeTrotter wrote:
Not sure if your Alamo reference is in jest, but with respect to secondary markets, I'm with you - it's apples and oranges, but I'm wondering if CM is trying to get access to the AUS market in a manner similar to what it's doing for the Washington market via BWI.
For short-to-medium haul routes, BWI and IAD are different markets.
LAX772LR wrote:Kilgen wrote:Most of the pending destinations were destinations with less than 4x per week frequencies to mostly leisure destinations: HOG, LIR, MSY, PVR, REC, SLA, SSA and STI.
Careful with that though. While several of those indeed are generally "leisure" destinations, that isn't always the market for a carrier like CM.
Take MSY for example, I'm sure CM carries some leisure component, but its primary target was the (surprisingly large, for a metro its size) Honduran and Salvadoran population therein. TACA/LACSA/TAN/etc used to serve various MSY-Honduras/El Salvador nonstops for more than 60 consecutive years prior to Hurricane Katrina, for that reason. However, in CM's post-Covid absence, NK jumped in with nonstops between MSY and Honduras, which may be short-circuiting CM's return plans.
Point being, as we've alluded to with PAP and MSY: there may be more to it than what's on the surface.
usxguy wrote:LAX772LR wrote:Kilgen wrote:Most of the pending destinations were destinations with less than 4x per week frequencies to mostly leisure destinations: HOG, LIR, MSY, PVR, REC, SLA, SSA and STI.
Careful with that though. While several of those indeed are generally "leisure" destinations, that isn't always the market for a carrier like CM.
Take MSY for example, I'm sure CM carries some leisure component, but its primary target was the (surprisingly large, for a metro its size) Honduran and Salvadoran population therein. TACA/LACSA/TAN/etc used to serve various MSY-Honduras/El Salvador nonstops for more than 60 consecutive years prior to Hurricane Katrina, for that reason. However, in CM's post-Covid absence, NK jumped in with nonstops between MSY and Honduras, which may be short-circuiting CM's return plans.
Point being, as we've alluded to with PAP and MSY: there may be more to it than what's on the surface.
Regarding SAT, I think Copa would get a huge chunk of the southern/eastern caribbean market. I've even flown LAX-PTY-PUJ because the timing was perfect, and of course, eDreams lie flat seats on a 737!
hohd wrote:If they start AUS or SAT service, some of the western suburbs of Houston area will consider using Copa to Central and South America. Hoping it is Austin, as AUS airport is closer than SAT airport to west Houston.
santi319 wrote:I would think PHL or CLT and PHX would come before SAT. Even PBI..
N292UX wrote:santi319 wrote:I would think PHL or CLT and PHX would come before SAT. Even PBI..
The BWI announcement may have been the final nail in the coffin for PHL's hopes, at least for the time being. BWI/JFK can easily cover a lot of the PHL market at this point. Heck, CM doesn't even fly EWR yet, I wouldn't be surprised if they added an EWR flight alongside UA's flights before PHL.
LAXdude1023 wrote:I think it's important to remember CM's target audience for flights to North America is connections to Central and South America as opposed to the Caribbean. For that reason, it's hard to think of a market like SAT (or AUS for that matter) being a good fit. It also explains why ATL and BWI were chosen over cities like SAT, AUS, PHL, etc.
It is important to also remember that while travel to South America is a mix of business and VFR, travel to Central America is almost pure VFR. Because of that, travel demand tends to follow demographic trends.
Below are the demographic numbers for Texas by Combined Statistical Area. I use that number because its more indicative of who would be using the primary airports. Numbers are from 2021.
Central American Population
Houston: 405,350
Dallas/Fort Worth: 218,315
Austin: 52,892
San Antonio: 39,222
South American Population
Houston: 187,211
Dallas/Fort Worth: 71,946
Austin: 32,041
San Antonio: 16,994
Breakdown of Largest Groups within Central and South America
Houston
Salvadoran: 196,576
Honduran: 122,643
Venezuelan: 60,640
Colombian: 60,604
Guatemalan: 55,263
Dallas/Fort Worth
Salvadoran: 107,500
Honduran: 50,766
Guatemalan: 41,740
Colombian: 21,568
Venezuelan: 19,252
Austin
Guatemalan: 16,251
Honduran: 15,705
Salvadoran: 12,842
Colombian: 10,295
Venezuelan: 9,941
San Antonio
Honduran: 14,148
Salvadoran: 9,282
Colombian: 6,954
Panamanian: 5,264
Guatemalan: 5,146
As far as SAT goes, the numbers just aren't there without some sort of significant revenue guarantee. It also explains why Houston is such a significant hub to that region while its harder for DFW to have a foothold.
aircountry wrote:LAXdude1023 wrote:I think it's important to remember CM's target audience for flights to North America is connections to Central and South America as opposed to the Caribbean. For that reason, it's hard to think of a market like SAT (or AUS for that matter) being a good fit. It also explains why ATL and BWI were chosen over cities like SAT, AUS, PHL, etc.
It is important to also remember that while travel to South America is a mix of business and VFR, travel to Central America is almost pure VFR. Because of that, travel demand tends to follow demographic trends.
Below are the demographic numbers for Texas by Combined Statistical Area. I use that number because its more indicative of who would be using the primary airports. Numbers are from 2021.
Central American Population
Houston: 405,350
Dallas/Fort Worth: 218,315
Austin: 52,892
San Antonio: 39,222
South American Population
Houston: 187,211
Dallas/Fort Worth: 71,946
Austin: 32,041
San Antonio: 16,994
Breakdown of Largest Groups within Central and South America
Houston
Salvadoran: 196,576
Honduran: 122,643
Venezuelan: 60,640
Colombian: 60,604
Guatemalan: 55,263
Dallas/Fort Worth
Salvadoran: 107,500
Honduran: 50,766
Guatemalan: 41,740
Colombian: 21,568
Venezuelan: 19,252
Austin
Guatemalan: 16,251
Honduran: 15,705
Salvadoran: 12,842
Colombian: 10,295
Venezuelan: 9,941
San Antonio
Honduran: 14,148
Salvadoran: 9,282
Colombian: 6,954
Panamanian: 5,264
Guatemalan: 5,146
As far as SAT goes, the numbers just aren't there without some sort of significant revenue guarantee. It also explains why Houston is such a significant hub to that region while its harder for DFW to have a foothold.
I dont know why Copa wont go to Houston have the largest central and south america population. UA still flying IAH-PTY for many years and why not add Copa to serve IAH instead pick on AUS or SAT and BWI. Remember when CO was HQ in Houston and wont let Copa to fly IAH until merged with UA and move to Chicago UA HQ and allowed Copa to add ORD while IAH never serve. IAH is welcome and both are star alliance but, whats going on?
usxguy wrote:LAX772LR wrote:Kilgen wrote:Most of the pending destinations were destinations with less than 4x per week frequencies to mostly leisure destinations: HOG, LIR, MSY, PVR, REC, SLA, SSA and STI.
MSY is a mostly Central America market - I'm surprised that Copa hasn't routed a plane MSY-BZE/GUA/SJO-PTY. TACA flew daily MSY/BZE until other airlines discovered Belize.
bchandl wrote:hohd wrote:If they start AUS or SAT service, some of the western suburbs of Houston area will consider using Copa to Central and South America. Hoping it is Austin, as AUS airport is closer than SAT airport to west Houston.
You would drive 4-5hrs round trip to Austin vs probably 90min RT to IAH just to take Copa over UA?????
hohd wrote:bchandl wrote:hohd wrote:If they start AUS or SAT service, some of the western suburbs of Houston area will consider using Copa to Central and South America. Hoping it is Austin, as AUS airport is closer than SAT airport to west Houston.
You would drive 4-5hrs round trip to Austin vs probably 90min RT to IAH just to take Copa over UA?????
Yes I would if the price is right. AUS airport is about 2 hours from West Houston and IAH is about 45 mins to an 1 hour from West Houston when there is no traffic. With traffic it could take longer. The airport at AUS is on the east side of 71 which is the route to Houston. I have taken flights from AUS especially many times and many of my friends have taken it too.
It is just an hour longer drive as compared to IAH, and for far destinations, it is worth it. For example I took a flight to ANC from AUS for $400 less than it would have been from IAH and that too by UA.
DFWGlobeTrotter wrote:BWIAirport wrote:A week after announcing BWI, good to see the secondary metro areas getting this kind of attention. Not to mention this provides great access for all of South America to visit the Alamo.
CM has an opportunity to serve a similar purpose to US-South America travel as Icelandair and Play serve to US-Europe travel. Different markets of course, but something I don't believe has been done recently.
Not sure if your Alamo reference is in jest
LightChop2Chop wrote:Much of the diaspora population that TA used to serve from MSY (you mention MSY BZE) moved over to Houston after Katrina.
hohd wrote:bchandl wrote:hohd wrote:If they start AUS or SAT service, some of the western suburbs of Houston area will consider using Copa to Central and South America. Hoping it is Austin, as AUS airport is closer than SAT airport to west Houston.
You would drive 4-5hrs round trip to Austin vs probably 90min RT to IAH just to take Copa over UA?????
Yes I would if the price is right. AUS airport is about 2 hours from West Houston and IAH is about 45 mins to an 1 hour from West Houston when there is no traffic. With traffic it could take longer. The airport at AUS is on the east side of 71 which is the route to Houston. I have taken flights from AUS especially many times and many of my friends have taken it too.
It is just an hour longer drive as compared to IAH, and for far destinations, it is worth it. For example I took a flight to ANC from AUS for $400 less than it would have been from IAH and that too by UA.
hohd wrote:bchandl wrote:hohd wrote:If they start AUS or SAT service, some of the western suburbs of Houston area will consider using Copa to Central and South America. Hoping it is Austin, as AUS airport is closer than SAT airport to west Houston.
You would drive 4-5hrs round trip to Austin vs probably 90min RT to IAH just to take Copa over UA?????
Yes I would if the price is right. AUS airport is about 2 hours from West Houston and IAH is about 45 mins to an 1 hour from West Houston when there is no traffic. With traffic it could take longer. The airport at AUS is on the east side of 71 which is the route to Houston. I have taken flights from AUS especially many times and many of my friends have taken it too.
It is just an hour longer drive as compared to IAH, and for far destinations, it is worth it. For example I took a flight to ANC from AUS for $400 less than it would have been from IAH and that too by UA.
LAXdude1023 wrote:hohd wrote:bchandl wrote:
You would drive 4-5hrs round trip to Austin vs probably 90min RT to IAH just to take Copa over UA?????
Yes I would if the price is right. AUS airport is about 2 hours from West Houston and IAH is about 45 mins to an 1 hour from West Houston when there is no traffic. With traffic it could take longer. The airport at AUS is on the east side of 71 which is the route to Houston. I have taken flights from AUS especially many times and many of my friends have taken it too.
It is just an hour longer drive as compared to IAH, and for far destinations, it is worth it. For example I took a flight to ANC from AUS for $400 less than it would have been from IAH and that too by UA.
This is why, if CM is considering Austin, it would be self defeating if part of the plan is to lure people from West Houston. That would erode yields big time. There is a lot more demand for Central and South America from West Houston than all of Austin.
If CM is considering another TX city, it should be DFW and only DFW.
LAX772LR wrote:LightChop2Chop wrote:Much of the diaspora population that TA used to serve from MSY (you mention MSY BZE) moved over to Houston after Katrina.
Not really. At least as far as the Hondurans and Salvadorans go.
In fact, the population grew after Katrina, while adding something NOLA barely had anything of: Mexicans.
MSY's Vietnamese population however, did migrate pretty significantly to IAH (and even BTR), in numbers that have never really recovered.
CarlosSi wrote:hohd wrote:bchandl wrote:
You would drive 4-5hrs round trip to Austin vs probably 90min RT to IAH just to take Copa over UA?????
Yes I would if the price is right. AUS airport is about 2 hours from West Houston and IAH is about 45 mins to an 1 hour from West Houston when there is no traffic. With traffic it could take longer. The airport at AUS is on the east side of 71 which is the route to Houston. I have taken flights from AUS especially many times and many of my friends have taken it too.
It is just an hour longer drive as compared to IAH, and for far destinations, it is worth it. For example I took a flight to ANC from AUS for $400 less than it would have been from IAH and that too by UA.
Even I forget the immense size of Houston. Takes a while to get to the center or most other parts.