As per the NY times: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/13/nyre ... train.html

To be honest, I say good. It was very silly to try to run this train to Willits Point. Should have been an extension of the N train all along. Now it seems express busses will have to fill the gap for now, but perhaps this opens the door to new ideas down the line.

scutfarcus wrote:

As per the NY times: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/13/nyre ... train.html

To be honest, I say good. It was very silly to try to run this train to Willits Point. Should have been an extension of the N train all along. Now it seems express busses will have to fill the gap for now, but perhaps this opens the door to new ideas down the line.

It's not just the wrong way Airtrain that is dead, so is 14 other proposals which included extending the N/W trains. I have to admit being very surprised, I thought they were going to recommend an Airtrain to Jackson Heights to connect with the subway. I have to wonder how much the lack luster response from riders for the $12 Billion LIRR Grand Central Madison factored into this decision. Then there's the airlines, DL probably doesn't want the PFC's to keep going into the stratosphere. DL's LaGuardia operation is mostly regional jets, combine that with astronomical costs per enplanement and that can't be a recipe for success. They just rebuilt the terminals, then they were going to spend another $7 Billion on an Airtrain or Subway extension. That is a lot of money, how many people would actually benefit? JFK's Airtrain had about 20,000 daily riders in 2022. Let's say LGA's saw similar numbers, that's $7 Billion for 20,000 daily riders many of which would be from outside the region visiting the city. For comparison the new Gateway tunnel, estimated to cost $14 Billion, is expected to handle 400,000 daily riders.

I wonder what this means for the new EWR Airtrain, Port Authority projects are balanced between NY and NJ. The Airtrains were announced around the same time, and the EWR plan has been delayed which the agency blamed on higher-than-expected cost estimates. When in reality they were just delaying in order to wait to see what NY decided to do with the LaGuardia project.

So there's gonna be nothing instead for at least another 15-20 years. Cause that's so much better!

BangersAndMash wrote:

So there's gonna be nothing instead for at least another 15-20 years. Cause that's so much better!

Q-70 Bus to Jackson Heights and a new bus to the N/W.

STT757 wrote:

scutfarcus wrote:

As per the NY times: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/13/nyre ... train.html



I wonder what this means for the new EWR Airtrain, Port Authority projects are balanced between NY and NJ. The Airtrains were announced around the same time, and the EWR plan has been delayed which the agency blamed on higher-than-expected cost estimates. When in reality they were just delaying in order to wait to see what NY decided to do with the LaGuardia project.

Hasn't PANYNJ said that the EWR Airtrain is reaching end of life? I'm not sure they have much choice to replace that awful, undependable thing.

This is a country that once had the ability to put men on the moon… lol.

scutfarcus wrote:

As per the NY times: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/13/nyre ... train.html

To be honest, I say good. It was very silly to try to run this train to Willits Point. Should have been an extension of the N train all along. Now it seems express busses will have to fill the gap for now, but perhaps this opens the door to new ideas down the line.

And everyone thinks you can just magically extend the N train to do this. Anybody actually *read* these articles outlining all of the challenges with the tunneling required?

STT757 wrote:

They just rebuilt the terminals, then they were going to spend another $7 Billion on an Airtrain or Subway extension. That is a lot of money, how many people would actually benefit? JFK's Airtrain had about 20,000 daily riders in 2022. Let's say LGA's saw similar numbers, that's $7 Billion for 20,000 daily riders many of which would be from outside the region visiting the city. For comparison the new Gateway tunnel, estimated to cost $14 Billion, is expected to handle 400,000 daily riders.

It's an insane amount of money for what would largely be employee transportation, and I say this as someone who frequently uses public transit to go to & from the airport. The business travel demographic (as well as the higher-end leisure traveler) takes a cab/Uber/black car to LGA. $7 billion for 7 million annual passengers works out to roughly $30/passenger in debt service (assuming 30-year bonds) even before you get to the cost of operating the trains.

ScottB wrote:

STT757 wrote:

They just rebuilt the terminals, then they were going to spend another $7 Billion on an Airtrain or Subway extension. That is a lot of money, how many people would actually benefit? JFK's Airtrain had about 20,000 daily riders in 2022. Let's say LGA's saw similar numbers, that's $7 Billion for 20,000 daily riders many of which would be from outside the region visiting the city. For comparison the new Gateway tunnel, estimated to cost $14 Billion, is expected to handle 400,000 daily riders.

It's an insane amount of money for what would largely be employee transportation, and I say this as someone who frequently uses public transit to go to & from the airport. The business travel demographic (as well as the higher-end leisure traveler) takes a cab/Uber/black car to LGA. $7 billion for 7 million annual passengers works out to roughly $30/passenger in debt service (assuming 30-year bonds) even before you get to the cost of operating the trains.

The US and NYC in particular have such a ridiculous cost bloat for these sorts of things it's hard to fathom. In most countries it would be a tenth of that cost. Too many people get caught up in if the idea itself is good or not (and yeah, more options is better) but then never actually stop to think if it's worth the promised price tag (which would then surely go overbudget)

Don't really care what anyone says. LaGuardia needs a rail connection. Parking costs are insane, the Long Island Railroad now goes to Grand Central so there's east and west side rail access now. LaGuardia needs a rail connection. Even ISP has better rail access than LGA.

LCDFlight wrote:

This is a country that once had the ability to put men on the moon… lol.

We wouldn’t have made it to the Moon today. I was talking with a civil engineer whose company built much of I75 and I95 in Florida. “No way could we build the Interstate system today, very emphatically”. Too much opposition, too many naysayers who can veto anything or increase the cost to the point of cancellation. New England needs natural gas to produce cleaner, cheaper electricity. Two major projects cancelled, one a pipeline that would have been far more environmentally clean than trucking. Nope, the NIMBYs killed it. Ned Lamont killed a NG plant in CT, now prices are skyrocketing and it’s less environmentally friendly. Go figure.

STT757 wrote:

BangersAndMash wrote:

So there's gonna be nothing instead for at least another 15-20 years. Cause that's so much better!

Q-70 Bus to Jackson Heights and a new bus to the N/W.

How long does the Q-70 bus take to get to Jackson Heights?

Every time I fly to NYC I use JFK because of the AirTran / Subway / LIRR connectivity (as renting a car to go to the city is crazy).

Vctony wrote:

STT757 wrote:

BangersAndMash wrote:

So there's gonna be nothing instead for at least another 15-20 years. Cause that's so much better!

Q-70 Bus to Jackson Heights and a new bus to the N/W.

How long does the Q-70 bus take to get to Jackson Heights?

Every time I fly to NYC I use JFK because of the AirTran / Subway / LIRR connectivity (as renting a car to go to the city is crazy).

Depends. The bigger questions is how long it takes for the Q-70 to show up. The frequency is very inconsistent. A bit of an embarrassment.

Vctony wrote:

How long does the Q-70 bus take to get to Jackson Heights?

Depends on traffic but really doesn't take that long. Considering the ride to Jamaica on the Airtrain is not short (and you have to deal with the $8.25 airtrain fee/metrocard only), I find LGA preferrable to JFK. It's still ridiculous that we don't have a train to LGA after all these years, but it's not like we have a direct train to JFK or EWR either.

LCDFlight wrote:

This is a country that once had the ability to put men on the moon… lol.

It is probably easier and cheaper to get him to the moon than on a train in New York from an airport.

ty97 wrote:

Vctony wrote:

How long does the Q-70 bus take to get to Jackson Heights?

Depends on traffic but really doesn't take that long. Considering the ride to Jamaica on the Airtrain is not short (and you have to deal with the $8.25 airtrain fee/metrocard only), I find LGA preferrable to JFK. It's still ridiculous that we don't have a train to LGA after all these years, but it's not like we have a direct train to JFK or EWR either.

Even with the busride from the Subway, LGA is easier/cheaper to get to from Manhattan, IMHO.

evank516 wrote:

Don't really care what anyone says. LaGuardia needs a rail connection. Parking costs are insane

Parking is insane at LGA because the parking fees subsidize the costs of running the airport -- and because people will pay it.

I used to be embarrassed living here in LA, watching far-flung airports like DEN, IAD and YVR gain train service to their airports while we continued to work on a Metro extension to LAX. To think that New York, a city where people seem to pride themselves on *NOT* needing to have a car, lacks train service to LGA - arguably the city's preferred airport - is downright shocking. Public transit may not necessarily be the fastest way to reach any airport, but it can certainly save time when there's traffic; if there's one city in the U.S. with traffic even more unpredictable and awful than here, it's NYC!

luckyone wrote:

ty97 wrote:

Vctony wrote:

How long does the Q-70 bus take to get to Jackson Heights?

Depends on traffic but really doesn't take that long. Considering the ride to Jamaica on the Airtrain is not short (and you have to deal with the $8.25 airtrain fee/metrocard only), I find LGA preferrable to JFK. It's still ridiculous that we don't have a train to LGA after all these years, but it's not like we have a direct train to JFK or EWR either.

Even with the busride from the Subway, LGA is easier/cheaper to get to from Manhattan, IMHO.

I think that depends on where in the city you’re going to. The air train link to the LIRR and Grand Central / Penn station is fairly easy. If you’re going to a destination on the E train maybe LGA is quicker, though if that destination is NYP it isn’t.

N757ST wrote:

luckyone wrote:

ty97 wrote:

Depends on traffic but really doesn't take that long. Considering the ride to Jamaica on the Airtrain is not short (and you have to deal with the $8.25 airtrain fee/metrocard only), I find LGA preferrable to JFK. It's still ridiculous that we don't have a train to LGA after all these years, but it's not like we have a direct train to JFK or EWR either.

Even with the busride from the Subway, LGA is easier/cheaper to get to from Manhattan, IMHO.

I think that depends on where in the city you’re going to. The air train link to the LIRR and Grand Central / Penn station is fairly easy. If you’re going to a destination on the E train maybe LGA is quicker, though if that destination is NYP it isn’t.

I don't have to pay for the AirTrain plus LIRR by using LGA though. Like a lot of tourists, I'm going to the areas with easy Subway access. Me and my family usually go to New York to go to the opera, so LGA works easiest for us. But yes if you're going places not in Midtown, the situation can be different.

What we'll see (for now) are larger, articulated EV buses to run between LGA and the LIRR Willits Point Station on 90 to 120 second headways.

ScottB wrote:

evank516 wrote:

Don't really care what anyone says. LaGuardia needs a rail connection. Parking costs are insane

Parking is insane at LGA because the parking fees subsidize the costs of running the airport -- and because people will pay it.

Again, doesn't matter. LaGuardia needs a rail connection. What they have now is inadequate.

This is a disgrace for this city. They should have kept Cuomo's Air train. Who cares that the initial direction of the train was opposite to Manhattan??? A short ride would connect to the LIRR which now has access to both Penn AND GCT. Hochul said she didnt feel obligated to keep it and would rather explore other, perhaps more optimal solutions. Fine. So better is...nothing at all??? Dumb!!! Sub optimal would have been better than nothing at all and more busses clogging up roadways.

evank516 wrote:

Don't really care what anyone says. LaGuardia needs a rail connection. Parking costs are insane, the Long Island Railroad now goes to Grand Central so there's east and west side rail access now. LaGuardia needs a rail connection. Even ISP has better rail access than LGA.

Agreeed LGA needs a rail connection traffic can be impossible at times. At least trains are more reliable also the LIRR can bring people in from long island north shore.

tinpusher007 wrote:

This is a disgrace for this city. They should have kept Cuomo's Air train. Who cares that the initial direction of the train was opposite to Manhattan??? A short ride would connect to the LIRR which now has access to both Penn AND GCT. Hochul said she didnt feel obligated to keep it and would rather explore other, perhaps more optimal solutions. Fine. So better is...nothing at all??? Dumb!!! Sub optimal would have been better than nothing at all and more busses clogging up roadways.

Lol do you live in NYC? This was a stupid and terrible execution of the plan. While a train is worthwhile, THIS train wasn't.

And there are other solutions....increased bus service on the Q70 and a new bus to the N/W trains

As a New Yorker, it is very upsetting on how much everything costs in the city (I continually see article how other European cities have much better cost controls).

I would have loved for a subway connection to LGA, however, connecting the N/W directly to the terminals might be problematic (not sure of the headway during peak and off-peak times, may not be good for pax trying to connect to other terminals, but also, how much traffic at LGA is O & D vs connection).

Perhaps connecting the subway N/W to the terminals and use a Shuttle service (like in between Grand central and Times Square or how the A to Rockaway becomes a shuttle between Broad Channel and Rockaway) would work.

Either way, right now with how public transportation stands in NYC, arranging more bus service wouldn't be helpful for where I live in Brooklyn; if I took a car right now it would take 23 minutes to get to Terminal B, if I took public transportation, it would take 61 minutes (not to include the pain of moving my luggage up and down the subway).

LCDFlight wrote:

This is a country that once had the ability to put men on the moon… lol.

As an outsider now (I lived about 15 years in Upstate New York as a younger man), it absolutely blows me away that there is still no plan for fast easy subway connectivity between EWR, JFK, LGA, Grand Central Station, Penn Station. NY... you can have it....

I have landed at LGA with carryon, jumped on the Q70bus to Roosevelt Avenue F Subway line, and made it to the Lower East Side in Manhattan in 40 minutes. And the Q70 bus is free - so $2.75 for the subway. Pretty unbeatable deal.

Unfortunately the city doesn't have another $2 billion to spend after they already spent $8 billion redoing the terminal. Unfortunately we have more serious problems than LGA access.

leader1 wrote:

twaconnie wrote:

evank516 wrote:

Don't really care what anyone says. LaGuardia needs a rail connection. Parking costs are insane, the Long Island Railroad now goes to Grand Central so there's east and west side rail access now. LaGuardia needs a rail connection. Even ISP has better rail access than LGA.

Agreeed LGA needs a rail connection traffic can be impossible at times. At least trains are more reliable also the LIRR can bring people in from long island north shore.

This is an excellent point that was neglected by the project's naysayers. There could have been a ton of traffic that came from the North Shore. I live in NE Queens, close to the Port Washington line, and this would have been very convenient for me, as well as a lot of other North Shore residents. Instead, I'd be relegated to take the bus, which would easily take close to two hours, or drive or take an Uber. I'm choosing the latter. And most residents in NE Queens or North Shore Long Island will do the same.

As expensive as this project was, it was far better than the status quo, which is what we're ending up with. Expanding the N/R train was never a possibility because of nimbyism and the prohibitive cost. The other air train proposals were great in theory, but, again, cost and nimbyism got in the way.

In any case, the expanding bus service, which sucks to begin with, is a non-solution. I've taken the Q70 and M60 buses several times and they're just not reliable, especially with traffic being as bad as it is. You're going to be affected by traffic either way, so it's way better to deal with it in the comforts of a car/cab. And for those applauding this project's demise, hope you enjoy the bus ride!

Not even that, but it branched off the one single LIRR line that did NOT touch Jamaica. Meaning any congestion or switch troubles in Jamaica likely would not have an effect on the trains operating performance from Penn Station unless the train originated on a different branch.

Listen, an AirTrain from Willet's Point wasn't ideal, but I'd take it over what's available now. That Q70 is operational garbage. The amount of waiting I've done for the Q70 to even show up is pathetic. I remember one time I was waiting on the street in Woodside for a good hour for a bus to actually show up. Even so, LaGuardia is the only major NYC airport without a DIRECT rail link. Even the Willets Point idea served the purpose and would get people into the city in a decent amount of time. NYC is very built up, it's hard to find room to build anything in the vicinity of LaGuardia. There really is no better alternative that doesn't involve a ton of extra tunnelling to the point of a 4 decade wait for it to even open up like we've been waiting for the East Side Access to open up across 2 or 3 generations.

I don't know if this was ever floated, but I like the idea of extending the JFK AirTrain to LGA via the Van Wyck & GCP, with a stop at Willets Point thus connecting both airports and providing rail links to points east and west of the city. I understand this is a pipe dream and it would cost more than a pretty penny

LGA is right on the water, I've never understood why the MTA didn't just launch a high speed ferry route to Manhattan w/connections to the Subway. Much cheaper than a train with all the traffic avoiding benefits.

maverick4002 wrote:

tinpusher007 wrote:

This is a disgrace for this city. They should have kept Cuomo's Air train. Who cares that the initial direction of the train was opposite to Manhattan??? A short ride would connect to the LIRR which now has access to both Penn AND GCT. Hochul said she didnt feel obligated to keep it and would rather explore other, perhaps more optimal solutions. Fine. So better is...nothing at all??? Dumb!!! Sub optimal would have been better than nothing at all and more busses clogging up roadways.

Lol do you live in NYC? This was a stupid and terrible execution of the plan. While a train is worthwhile, THIS train wasn't.

And there are other solutions....increased bus service on the Q70 and a new bus to the N/W trains

I used to and have been based there for many years. The logistics and expense of trying to run the N and W to LGA would be much more complex than the proposed link to Willet’s Point. Was it perfect? No. But it was certainly something that many could have benefited from. Giving up and doing ‘nothing’ but adding more busses is not a solution. Its simply giving up.

usflyer msp wrote:

LGA is right on the water, I've never understood why the MTA didn't just launch a high speed ferry route to Manhattan w/connections to the Subway. Much cheaper than a train with all the traffic avoiding benefits.

Absolutely should work, but never tried

evank516 wrote:

That Q70 is operational garbage. The amount of waiting I've done for the Q70 to even show up is pathetic. I remember one time I was waiting on the street in Woodside for a good hour for a bus to actually show up.

Why can't NYC fix the bus problem? Are more buses needed to meet the schedule or is it just traffic issues?

usflyer msp wrote:

LGA is right on the water, I've never understood why the MTA didn't just launch a high speed ferry route to Manhattan w/connections to the Subway. Much cheaper than a train with all the traffic avoiding benefits.

Connections to the subway where, exactly?

LGA is on the water, but generally (apart from the Marine Air Terminal, of course) the terminals aren't. So you'd be talking about a bus from the terminals to the ferry, then the ferry ride, then a walk of 2-4 crosstown blocks to the subway, and THEN the subway. Almost no one would do that vs. just taking a cab/Uber/black car.

jetblastdubai wrote:

evank516 wrote:

That Q70 is operational garbage. The amount of waiting I've done for the Q70 to even show up is pathetic. I remember one time I was waiting on the street in Woodside for a good hour for a bus to actually show up.

Why can't NYC fix the bus problem? Are more buses needed to meet the schedule or is it just traffic issues?

The MTA will never fix their reliability issues. Their gross mismanagement of funds is a never ending cycle. Traffic never helps, and the Q70 takes some of the most congested roads/parkways from LaGuardia to Woodside. Terrible at rush hour.

ScottB wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

LGA is right on the water, I've never understood why the MTA didn't just launch a high speed ferry route to Manhattan w/connections to the Subway. Much cheaper than a train with all the traffic avoiding benefits.

Connections to the subway where, exactly?

LGA is on the water, but generally (apart from the Marine Air Terminal, of course) the terminals aren't. So you'd be talking about a bus from the terminals to the ferry, then the ferry ride, then a walk of 2-4 crosstown blocks to the subway, and THEN the subway. Almost no one would do that vs. just taking a cab/Uber/black car.

From I've seen, Roosevelt Island Subway (F Train) is right on the waterfront and and so is Whitehall in Lower Manhattan (with the added advantage of already having a Ferry Terminal). It is also probably much easier to build a tunnel from a ferry station to a subway station than a new train from LGA to an existing station.

usflyer msp wrote:

From I've seen, Roosevelt Island Subway (F Train) is right on the waterfront and and so is Whitehall in Lower Manhattan (with the added advantage of already having a Ferry Terminal). It is also probably much easier to build a tunnel from a ferry station to a subway station than a new train from LGA to an existing station.

Going all the way down to Lower Manhattan (~12 miles) even with a fast ferry isn't going to be time-competitive with driving once you add in the bus ride to the MAT. Roosevelt Island does get you subway access but not much else. IMO that's still too many mode changes to be competitive; i.e. bus -> boat -> subway. Nothing about building a tunnel in NYC is "easy."

Vctony wrote:

STT757 wrote:

BangersAndMash wrote:

So there's gonna be nothing instead for at least another 15-20 years. Cause that's so much better!

Q-70 Bus to Jackson Heights and a new bus to the N/W.

How long does the Q-70 bus take to get to Jackson Heights?

Every time I fly to NYC I use JFK because of the AirTran / Subway / LIRR connectivity (as renting a car to go to the city is crazy).

Same here. Also like to mention that the shuttles (AirTrain) for rental car/hotels/etc. are more convenient compared to LGA in which a passenger has to take two buses altogether from their terminal to a transfer point then to their rental car facility of choice.

ScottB wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

From I've seen, Roosevelt Island Subway (F Train) is right on the waterfront and and so is Whitehall in Lower Manhattan (with the added advantage of already having a Ferry Terminal). It is also probably much easier to build a tunnel from a ferry station to a subway station than a new train from LGA to an existing station.

Going all the way down to Lower Manhattan (~12 miles) even with a fast ferry isn't going to be time-competitive with driving once you add in the bus ride to the MAT. Roosevelt Island does get you subway access but not much else. IMO that's still too many mode changes to be competitive; i.e. bus -> boat -> subway. Nothing about building a tunnel in NYC is "easy."

I guess different strokes for different folks. I see bus to MAT, Ferry to Manhattan, Subway as exactly the same as AirTrain to Willets (1 fare), LIRR to Manhattan (2 fares) and then Subway to final destination (3 fares) with a fraction of the construction costs.

usflyer msp wrote:

ScottB wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

From I've seen, Roosevelt Island Subway (F Train) is right on the waterfront and and so is Whitehall in Lower Manhattan (with the added advantage of already having a Ferry Terminal). It is also probably much easier to build a tunnel from a ferry station to a subway station than a new train from LGA to an existing station.

Going all the way down to Lower Manhattan (~12 miles) even with a fast ferry isn't going to be time-competitive with driving once you add in the bus ride to the MAT. Roosevelt Island does get you subway access but not much else. IMO that's still too many mode changes to be competitive; i.e. bus -> boat -> subway. Nothing about building a tunnel in NYC is "easy."

I guess different strokes for different folks. I see bus to MAT, Ferry to Manhattan, Subway as exactly the same as AirTrain to Willets (1 fare), LIRR to Manhattan (2 fares) and then Subway to final destination (3 fares) with a fraction of the construction costs.

Which seems to be why they're recommending BRT. If you can put in a dedicated lane, you get rid of a bunch of the issues associated with the existing bus services. That being said, if someone had the foresight to say "Grand Central Parkway shouldn't be an 8 lane freeway, especially if we're going to build a rapid transit line on it to Astoria and Corona. Let's cut some lanes from the parkway, extend the N/W down the freeway at grade (instead of elevating it by the runway or trenching and hitting the sewer near the airport) instead." you could probably get a longer line finished, adding another subway line in queens (with stations on Astoria, Astoria heights, North Corona, Corona, and flushing-meadows park). If you end up serving a LIRR station, parts of queens, and extend the Astoria line to Laguardia, you might be able to convince some drivers that the traffic shift would be worth it.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

LGA is right on the water, I've never understood why the MTA didn't just launch a high speed ferry route to Manhattan w/connections to the Subway. Much cheaper than a train with all the traffic avoiding benefits.

Absolutely should work, but never tried

The Delta Water Shuttle used to have a high speed ferry from the Marine Air Terminal to Manhattan - but it was canceled in 2001.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... 78e18b713/

evank516 wrote:

leader1 wrote:

twaconnie wrote:

Agreeed LGA needs a rail connection traffic can be impossible at times. At least trains are more reliable also the LIRR can bring people in from long island north shore.

This is an excellent point that was neglected by the project's naysayers. There could have been a ton of traffic that came from the North Shore. I live in NE Queens, close to the Port Washington line, and this would have been very convenient for me, as well as a lot of other North Shore residents. Instead, I'd be relegated to take the bus, which would easily take close to two hours, or drive or take an Uber. I'm choosing the latter. And most residents in NE Queens or North Shore Long Island will do the same.

As expensive as this project was, it was far better than the status quo, which is what we're ending up with. Expanding the N/R train was never a possibility because of nimbyism and the prohibitive cost. The other air train proposals were great in theory, but, again, cost and nimbyism got in the way.

In any case, the expanding bus service, which sucks to begin with, is a non-solution. I've taken the Q70 and M60 buses several times and they're just not reliable, especially with traffic being as bad as it is. You're going to be affected by traffic either way, so it's way better to deal with it in the comforts of a car/cab. And for those applauding this project's demise, hope you enjoy the bus ride!

Not even that, but it branched off the one single LIRR line that did NOT touch Jamaica. Meaning any congestion or switch troubles in Jamaica likely would not have an effect on the trains operating performance from Penn Station unless the train originated on a different branch.

Listen, an AirTrain from Willet's Point wasn't ideal, but I'd take it over what's available now. That Q70 is operational garbage. The amount of waiting I've done for the Q70 to even show up is pathetic. I remember one time I was waiting on the street in Woodside for a good hour for a bus to actually show up. Even so, LaGuardia is the only major NYC airport without a DIRECT rail link. Even the Willets Point idea served the purpose and would get people into the city in a decent amount of time. NYC is very built up, it's hard to find room to build anything in the vicinity of LaGuardia. There really is no better alternative that doesn't involve a ton of extra tunnelling to the point of a 4 decade wait for it to even open up like we've been waiting for the East Side Access to open up across 2 or 3 generations.

Not a New Yorker, but asking, if you are waiting up to 1 hr for a bus at LGA...at that point does it make sense to just fly into JFK and take the air train to Jamaica?
If LGA is that bad and inconvenient...understand that having another train connected airport in the same Burrough of 1 city makes it hard for non NYC residents or NYC residents that dont travel often to understand the multi billion $ cost justification. I am sure going to JFK via train would have been easier than a 1hr bus wait.

LupineChemist wrote:

In most countries it would be a tenth of that cost.

Or 10x the cost, see BER. Or 10x slower, see WSI.

STT757 wrote:

scutfarcus wrote:

As per the NY times: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/13/nyre ... train.html

To be honest, I say good. It was very silly to try to run this train to Willits Point. Should have been an extension of the N train all along. Now it seems express busses will have to fill the gap for now, but perhaps this opens the door to new ideas down the line.

It's not just the wrong way Airtrain that is dead, so is 14 other proposals which included extending the N/W trains. I have to admit being very surprised, I thought they were going to recommend an Airtrain to Jackson Heights to connect with the subway. I have to wonder how much the lack luster response from riders for the $12 Billion LIRR Grand Central Madison factored into this decision. Then there's the airlines, DL probably doesn't want the PFC's to keep going into the stratosphere. DL's LaGuardia operation is mostly regional jets, combine that with astronomical costs per enplanement and that can't be a recipe for success. They just rebuilt the terminals, then they were going to spend another $7 Billion on an Airtrain or Subway extension. That is a lot of money, how many people would actually benefit? JFK's Airtrain had about 20,000 daily riders in 2022. Let's say LGA's saw similar numbers, that's $7 Billion for 20,000 daily riders many of which would be from outside the region visiting the city. For comparison the new Gateway tunnel, estimated to cost $14 Billion, is expected to handle 400,000 daily riders.

I wonder what this means for the new EWR Airtrain, Port Authority projects are balanced between NY and NJ. The Airtrains were announced around the same time, and the EWR plan has been delayed which the agency blamed on higher-than-expected cost estimates. When in reality they were just delaying in order to wait to see what NY decided to do with the LaGuardia project.

So now we know how this balances out with New Jersey.

https://www.nj.com/news/2023/03/new-rail-station-to-be-built-ahead-of-delayed-path-newark-airport-extension.html

Keith2004 wrote:

evank516 wrote:

leader1 wrote:

This is an excellent point that was neglected by the project's naysayers. There could have been a ton of traffic that came from the North Shore. I live in NE Queens, close to the Port Washington line, and this would have been very convenient for me, as well as a lot of other North Shore residents. Instead, I'd be relegated to take the bus, which would easily take close to two hours, or drive or take an Uber. I'm choosing the latter. And most residents in NE Queens or North Shore Long Island will do the same.

As expensive as this project was, it was far better than the status quo, which is what we're ending up with. Expanding the N/R train was never a possibility because of nimbyism and the prohibitive cost. The other air train proposals were great in theory, but, again, cost and nimbyism got in the way.

In any case, the expanding bus service, which sucks to begin with, is a non-solution. I've taken the Q70 and M60 buses several times and they're just not reliable, especially with traffic being as bad as it is. You're going to be affected by traffic either way, so it's way better to deal with it in the comforts of a car/cab. And for those applauding this project's demise, hope you enjoy the bus ride!

Not even that, but it branched off the one single LIRR line that did NOT touch Jamaica. Meaning any congestion or switch troubles in Jamaica likely would not have an effect on the trains operating performance from Penn Station unless the train originated on a different branch.

Listen, an AirTrain from Willet's Point wasn't ideal, but I'd take it over what's available now. That Q70 is operational garbage. The amount of waiting I've done for the Q70 to even show up is pathetic. I remember one time I was waiting on the street in Woodside for a good hour for a bus to actually show up. Even so, LaGuardia is the only major NYC airport without a DIRECT rail link. Even the Willets Point idea served the purpose and would get people into the city in a decent amount of time. NYC is very built up, it's hard to find room to build anything in the vicinity of LaGuardia. There really is no better alternative that doesn't involve a ton of extra tunnelling to the point of a 4 decade wait for it to even open up like we've been waiting for the East Side Access to open up across 2 or 3 generations.

Not a New Yorker, but asking, if you are waiting up to 1 hr for a bus at LGA...at that point does it make sense to just fly into JFK and take the air train to Jamaica?
If LGA is that bad and inconvenient...understand that having another train connected airport in the same Burrough of 1 city makes it hard for non NYC residents or NYC residents that dont travel often to understand the multi billion $ cost justification. I am sure going to JFK via train would have been easier than a 1hr bus wait.

The Q70 Bus runs like every 15 minutes. If you want to save money use public transport.

Depending on where you are going in Brooklyn Queens or Manhattan an Uber is like $40.

I don't understand all the outrage of this cancellation. I have lived here for over 30 years and I can tell you NYC taxes are brutal. And that is before NYState taxes and then the IRS. We don't need to pay an extra $2 billion to take an AirTrain in the wrong direction to get to a subway station where people with suitcases will have to schlepp them up stairs. No one needs that. God bless NYC cancelling this project. This is NYC - its not Disneyland. Good to see some fiscal responsibility.

If people live on the North Shore of LI well then you are not paying NYC taxes and presumably you can cough up a little more to get to the airport...

adambrau wrote:

Keith2004 wrote:

evank516 wrote:

Not even that, but it branched off the one single LIRR line that did NOT touch Jamaica. Meaning any congestion or switch troubles in Jamaica likely would not have an effect on the trains operating performance from Penn Station unless the train originated on a different branch.

Listen, an AirTrain from Willet's Point wasn't ideal, but I'd take it over what's available now. That Q70 is operational garbage. The amount of waiting I've done for the Q70 to even show up is pathetic. I remember one time I was waiting on the street in Woodside for a good hour for a bus to actually show up. Even so, LaGuardia is the only major NYC airport without a DIRECT rail link. Even the Willets Point idea served the purpose and would get people into the city in a decent amount of time. NYC is very built up, it's hard to find room to build anything in the vicinity of LaGuardia. There really is no better alternative that doesn't involve a ton of extra tunnelling to the point of a 4 decade wait for it to even open up like we've been waiting for the East Side Access to open up across 2 or 3 generations.

Not a New Yorker, but asking, if you are waiting up to 1 hr for a bus at LGA...at that point does it make sense to just fly into JFK and take the air train to Jamaica?
If LGA is that bad and inconvenient...understand that having another train connected airport in the same Burrough of 1 city makes it hard for non NYC residents or NYC residents that dont travel often to understand the multi billion $ cost justification. I am sure going to JFK via train would have been easier than a 1hr bus wait.

The Q70 Bus runs like every 15 minutes. If you want to save money use public transport.

Depending on where you are going in Brooklyn Queens or Manhattan an Uber is like $40.

I don't understand all the outrage of this cancellation. I have lived here for over 30 years and I can tell you NYC taxes are brutal. And that is before NYState taxes and then the IRS. We don't need to pay an extra $2 billion to take an AirTrain in the wrong direction to get to a subway station where people with suitcases will have to schlepp them up stairs. No one needs that. God bless NYC cancelling this project. This is NYC - its not Disneyland. Good to see some fiscal responsibility.

If people live on the North Shore of LI well then you are not paying NYC taxes and presumably you can cough up a little more to get to the airport...

It's just strange that the city with the best rail system in the USA cannot connect its closest airport to the rest of the city by rail.

The best solution has always been extending the N train to LGA. NIMBYism and the fact that the Port Authority (as opposed to NYC or the MTA) runs LGA is why it isn't happening. An N train extension would provide a one seat ride to midtown and downtown Manhattan (something that no other NYC airport would offer).