Hello. In the PD thread someone asked if there's a thread for Canadian airports, which until now there hasn't been...but now there is!

In the Canadian air carrier specific threads, often they get off topic. This can be the place for those discussions along with talking about all those niche carriers.

Here are some discussion topics that could go in this thread:

- News about a specific Canadian airport (e.g., about an air carrier, route prospects, cargo, terminal buildings, FBOs, etc.)

- Monthly and yearly passenger statistics for airports that publish them

- Smaller & niche Canadian air carriers that don't have their own thread, such as Canadian North, Pacific Coastal, PAL, etc.

I'll start things off with an announcement that was made earlier in March about the Government of Canada/Transport Canada investing in building new cold storage capacity at YQX for seafood: https://www.canada.ca/en/transport-cana ... as-su.html

YQX can certainly handle the big freighters with ease.

Question: Do Canadian North yet have a last day of ops scheduled for their sole remaining 732 combi? With its retirement, it will mark the end of scheduled jet operations on gravel runways in the Arctic.

YYZ report full year 2022 results: https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/g ... 90194.html

Pax numbers (millions)
Sector / 2022 / 2021 / % Change / 2020
Domestic / 14.3 / 6.8 / 111.5% / 5.5
International / 21.3 / 5.9 / 260.1% / 7.8
Total / 35.6 / 12.7 / 180.8% / 13.3

I think that takes YYZ back to about 2012 pax levels.

I don't get why YYZ don't break out the transborder numbers.

Dominion301 wrote:

Question: Do Canadian North yet have a last day of ops scheduled for their sole remaining 732 combi? With its retirement, it will mark the end of scheduled jet operations on gravel runways in the Arctic.

I believe its scheduled for April 1st. Not sure the routing though.

jumbojettony wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

Question: Do Canadian North yet have a last day of ops scheduled for their sole remaining 732 combi? With its retirement, it will mark the end of scheduled jet operations on gravel runways in the Arctic.

I believe its scheduled for April 1st. Not sure the routing though.

Looks like it got a brief reprieve as I just checked 5T's website and the 732 is still loaded until May 6th. Routing on the final day is YZF-YCO-YCB-YZF. After the 6th only the ATR combi and AT5 full pax are showing. The end of an era in the Arctic draws near that started around 1967.

After this, only Air Inuit will still operate scheduled 732 jet ops in Canada. Who else globally still has scheduled pax service on the Jurassic 737?

Dominion301 wrote:

jumbojettony wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

Question: Do Canadian North yet have a last day of ops scheduled for their sole remaining 732 combi? With its retirement, it will mark the end of scheduled jet operations on gravel runways in the Arctic.

I believe its scheduled for April 1st. Not sure the routing though.

Looks like it got a brief reprieve as I just checked 5T's website and the 732 is still loaded until May 6th. Routing on the final day is YZF-YCO-YCB-YZF. After the 6th only the ATR combi and AT5 full pax are showing. The end of an era in the Arctic draws near that started around 1967.

After this, only Air Inuit will still operate scheduled 732 jet ops in Canada. Who else globally still has scheduled pax service on the Jurassic 737?

Chrono uses them out of YHU, Nolinor has a ton out of YMX aswell. Granted they are more Mine Charters then scheduled ops.

Indeed for them and the Raglan mines 732 is still around. Unfortunately none of those are scheduled, but once in a while Nolinor had sub'd in for 5T.

Dominion301 wrote:

Question: Do Canadian North yet have a last day of ops scheduled for their sole remaining 732 combi? With its retirement, it will mark the end of scheduled jet operations on gravel runways in the Arctic.

Final scheduled ops on C-GDPA planned for May 6th (5T228 YZF-YCO-YCB-YZF). The aircraft is then expected to position down to YEG for withdrawal.

As of Monday May 8, the 226/228 trips to YCO & YCB switch to ATR42s.

On the subject of Canadian North, a few tidbits:

A fourth 737-700 is at YEG and being readied for service - C-FHNL (msn 28262).

Two ATR72Fs are being readied for service at YOW, these will be C-FRQA (msn 711) and C-FRQC (msn 719).

These are all appear in the TC Aircraft Registry search (Owner: Bradley Air Services).

737-400C C-FFNC is currently at TPA for conversion to freighter.

Has anyone heard any further about the new YHU terminal? I heard that allegedly WS/Encore submitted a letter of intent to the airport operator to use the terminal once its complete which is very surprising considering all their recent movements. Can't find any articles anywhere to back it up though.

Also curious as to how the discussion is going with the people living around the airport.

jumbojettony wrote:

Has anyone heard any further about the new YHU terminal? I heard that allegedly WS/Encore submitted a letter of intent to the airport operator to use the terminal once its complete which is very surprising considering all their recent movements. Can't find any articles anywhere to back it up though.

Also curious as to how the discussion is going with the people living around the airport.

PD did say that other airlines will be welcome to use the terminal. Pascan is a given. Having a couple others wouldn’t surprise me.

jumbojettony wrote:

Has anyone heard any further about the new YHU terminal? I heard that allegedly WS/Encore submitted a letter of intent to the airport operator to use the terminal once its complete which is very surprising considering all their recent movements. Can't find any articles anywhere to back it up though.

Also curious as to how the discussion is going with the people living around the airport.

Although I've not heard anything, I honestly wouldn't be surprised. Domestic flights for ADM at YUL seem to be an afterthought. Unless you're AC you get the scraps. I'd also expect to see at least a few Sunwing flights out of YHU once Transborder and International rules are changed.

I was sad to see Cascadia Airways close its doors. I flew them once between Penticton and YVR, not too long before they closed. It was a wonderful flight, even at 10pm.

yhu wrote:

jumbojettony wrote:

Has anyone heard any further about the new YHU terminal? I heard that allegedly WS/Encore submitted a letter of intent to the airport operator to use the terminal once its complete which is very surprising considering all their recent movements. Can't find any articles anywhere to back it up though.

Also curious as to how the discussion is going with the people living around the airport.

Although I've not heard anything, I honestly wouldn't be surprised. Domestic flights for ADM at YUL seem to be an afterthought. Unless you're AC you get the scraps. I'd also expect to see at least a few Sunwing flights out of YHU once Transborder and International rules are changed.

I don’t think the terminal floor plan has any plans for international space as scheduled international ops aren’t going to be allowed until something like 2055. The charters can continue to use the FBOs as it would be a waste of terminal space for its infrequent use. I doubt WG will ever want to return to the days of scheduled charters. OWG is about the only one still doing those with Hola Sun.

jumbojettony wrote:

Has anyone heard any further about the new YHU terminal? I heard that allegedly WS/Encore submitted a letter of intent to the airport operator to use the terminal once its complete which is very surprising considering all their recent movements. Can't find any articles anywhere to back it up though.

Also curious as to how the discussion is going with the people living around the airport.

It's not surprising at all. YUL is at capacity during peak times. Coupled with the lower operating fees of YHU and the recent WS re-focus out west, makes this rumor very plausible in my book. WS doesn't need to be at YUL. YHU would be enough for their operations. And they won't have to fight with ADM or AC and the rest for gates at YUL.

Dominion301 wrote:

I don’t think the terminal floor plan has any plans for international space as scheduled international ops aren’t going to be allowed until something like 2055.

2072, actually.

yhu wrote:

I'd also expect to see at least a few Sunwing flights out of YHU once Transborder and International rules are changed.

You're going to be a very old person or quite frankly dead, before you see international scheduled ops out of YHU.

jumbojettony wrote:

Has anyone heard any further about the new YHU terminal? I heard that allegedly WS/Encore submitted a letter of intent to the airport operator to use the terminal once its complete which is very surprising considering all their recent movements. Can't find any articles anywhere to back it up though.

Also curious as to how the discussion is going with the people living around the airport.

WestJets retraction to the West is temporary. Likely for a year or two.

They will be back.

wedgetail737 wrote:

I was sad to see Cascadia Airways close its doors. I flew them once between Penticton and YVR, not too long before they closed. It was a wonderful flight, even at 10pm.

I vaguely remember them. On what type did you fly?

YYT continues to be closed to commercial flights using it’s terminal due to a fire in the terminal building Friday:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfound ... -1.6791107

That’s quite a long closure over a weekend!

CrewBunk wrote:

wedgetail737 wrote:

I was sad to see Cascadia Airways close its doors. I flew them once between Penticton and YVR, not too long before they closed. It was a wonderful flight, even at 10pm.

I vaguely remember them. On what type did you fly?

According to their website:

The airline operates a fleet of smaller aircraft consisting of Piper Navajo Chieftains and King Air C90s.

They’re hoping to restart at some point in the future.

I would imagine their sked ops were mostly on the Chieftains as operating a C90 isn’t exactly cheap on 20-30 minute jaunts.

https://www.cascadiaair.com/post/cascad ... -statement

Thank OP for starting this thread. This is exactly what we need.

For me YXX is a bit more convenient than YVR. However, with Flair not in its best shape, we wonder if YXX can still have that many flights in the future.

On the other hand, AC has not been flying to YXX for a long time. As an Aeroplan SE, I hope it can come back to YXX some day, even if just a Rouge YYZ flight like before.

I do believe in the long run YXX should be an ideal place for the second airport of Metro Vancouver. Fraser Valley is one of the fastest growing region in Canada.

YOW's February Pax Stats:

Sector / Feb-22 / Feb-23 / % Change
Dom: 103,471 / 201,170 / +94.4%
TB: 5,271 / 48,965 / +829.0%
Int'l: 10,432 / 52,325 / +401.6%
TTL: 119,174 / 302,460 / +153.8%

Sector / YTD 2022 / YTD 2023 / % Change
Dom: 201,232 / 405,312 / +101.4%
TB: 10,539 / 91,495 / +768.2%
Int'l: 20,075 / 106,380 / +429.9%
TTL: 231,846 / 603,187 / +160.2%

Month-Over-Month Change
Sector / Jan-23 / Feb-23 / % Change
Dom: 204,142 / 201,170 / -1.5%
TB: 42,530 / 48,965 / +15.1%
Int'l: 54,055 / 52,325 / -3.2%
TTL: 300,727 / 302,460 / +0.6%
Avg/Day: 9,701 / 10,802 / +11.4%
% of month's avg daily pax vs 2019 (13,990 avg pax/day) = 77.2%
YTD TTL vs YTD 2019 = 74.6%

12 Months Rolling / % Change vs Year End 2021
Dom: 2,913,079 / +154.7%
TB: 271,291 / +2,313.2%
Int'l: 179,305 / +11049.6%
TTL: 3,363,675 / +187.3%

YTD daily pax count = 10,224 = currently on pace for 3,731,760 pax in 2023 +100K vs January's pace

Dominion301 wrote:

YYZ report full year 2022 results: https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/g ... 90194.html

Pax numbers (millions)
Sector / 2022 / 2021 / % Change / 2020
Domestic / 14.3 / 6.8 / 111.5% / 5.5
International / 21.3 / 5.9 / 260.1% / 7.8
Total / 35.6 / 12.7 / 180.8% / 13.3

I think that takes YYZ back to about 2012 pax levels.

I don't get why YYZ don't break out the transborder numbers.

This link has transborder broken out.. Not sure where original sourcing is from
Transborder stats

jh380 wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

YYZ report full year 2022 results: https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/g ... 90194.html

Pax numbers (millions)
Sector / 2022 / 2021 / % Change / 2020
Domestic / 14.3 / 6.8 / 111.5% / 5.5
International / 21.3 / 5.9 / 260.1% / 7.8
Total / 35.6 / 12.7 / 180.8% / 13.3

I think that takes YYZ back to about 2012 pax levels.

I don't get why YYZ don't break out the transborder numbers.

This link has transborder broken out.. Not sure where original sourcing is from
Transborder stats

Stats Can excludes non-revs from their data so they’re always a bit lower than the actual stats.

Thenoflyzone wrote:

It's not surprising at all. YUL is at capacity during peak times. Coupled with the lower operating fees of YHU and the recent WS re-focus out west, makes this rumor very plausible in my book. WS doesn't need to be at YUL. YHU would be enough for their operations. And they won't have to fight with ADM or AC and the rest for gates at YUL.

Given WS has Air France, KLM and several other international airlines in YUL as codeshare and interline partners I think they have a strong motivation for staying in YUL over moving to YHU.

casperCA wrote:

Thenoflyzone wrote:

It's not surprising at all. YUL is at capacity during peak times. Coupled with the lower operating fees of YHU and the recent WS re-focus out west, makes this rumor very plausible in my book. WS doesn't need to be at YUL. YHU would be enough for their operations. And they won't have to fight with ADM or AC and the rest for gates at YUL.

Given WS has Air France, KLM and several other international airlines in YUL as codeshare and interline partners I think they have a strong motivation for staying in YUL over moving to YHU.

I disagree.

WS currently has ~ 3 flights a day to YUL. 2 to YYZ on the Q, and 1 to YYC on the 737, that doesn't even operate daily. Do you really think they need interline partners to fill those flights? It's 100% O&D out of YUL for WS. They are funneling those passengers to YYZ/YYC for onward connections from there. Not the other way around.

YHU makes total sense for WS in Montreal once that terminal building is built.

Thenoflyzone wrote:

YHU makes total sense for WS in Montreal once that terminal building is built.

I'm still curious to see if it's actually going to happen at all... It's quite the stunt from PD, considering they're in the middle of a sizeable shakeup of their operation...

YULflyer1992 wrote:

Thenoflyzone wrote:

YHU makes total sense for WS in Montreal once that terminal building is built.

I'm still curious to see if it's actually going to happen at all... It's quite the stunt from PD, considering they're in the middle of a sizeable shakeup of their operation...

I'm still not clear exactly who is going to pay what for the proposed new YHU terminal.

Media events are fun and easy-let's see who puts up the cash before we get too excited?

AC have for a few weeks in May (02MAY23-30MAY23) scheduled the 77L instead of the 789 on YVR-YOW AC342/345 (ops X6).

Beyond one-offs and aircraft subs (e.g., Rapidair recovery after a storm), this is the first time a 777 of any type has been scheduled out of YOW.

YAM are hoping WG's takeover by WS will lead to the eventual return of WS to YAM. They talk about trying to attract Encore to fly YAM-YWG.

Beyond YQT, I have always wondered why YAM and YSB have never had service to YWG to connect to points west (beyond WS' former brief foray into both markets with a much too large 732). YAM used to way back when have milk runs that ended in YWG.

https://www.northernontariobusiness.com ... et-6739142

Dominion301 wrote:

AC have for a few weeks in May (02MAY23-30MAY23) scheduled the 77L instead of the 789 on YVR-YOW AC342/345 (ops X6).

Beyond one-offs and aircraft subs (e.g., Rapidair recovery after a storm), this is the first time a 777 of any type has been scheduled out of YOW.

The 77L was on the schedule last month, I forget which day but I flew it and checked and it wasn't the only day.

yzfElite wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

AC have for a few weeks in May (02MAY23-30MAY23) scheduled the 77L instead of the 789 on YVR-YOW AC342/345 (ops X6).

Beyond one-offs and aircraft subs (e.g., Rapidair recovery after a storm), this is the first time a 777 of any type has been scheduled out of YOW.

The 77L was on the schedule last month, I forget which day but I flew it and checked and it wasn't the only day.

Well look at that. How full was the flight?

Dominion301 wrote:

yzfElite wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

AC have for a few weeks in May (02MAY23-30MAY23) scheduled the 77L instead of the 789 on YVR-YOW AC342/345 (ops X6).

Beyond one-offs and aircraft subs (e.g., Rapidair recovery after a storm), this is the first time a 777 of any type has been scheduled out of YOW.

The 77L was on the schedule last month, I forget which day but I flew it and checked and it wasn't the only day.

Well look at that. How full was the flight?

I had an upgrade, J filled, PY was nearly empty and Y wasn't full but decently filled.

Dominion301 wrote:

YAM are hoping WG's takeover by WS will lead to the eventual return of WS to YAM. They talk about trying to attract Encore to fly YAM-YWG.

Beyond YQT, I have always wondered why YAM and YSB have never had service to YWG to connect to points west (beyond WS' former brief foray into both markets with a much too large 732). YAM used to way back when have milk runs that ended in YWG.

https://www.northernontariobusiness.com ... et-6739142

This is very interesting. WS has already built up a little bit of a minihub at YWG with the YWG/YXE/YQT encore flights. They could expand further into northern ON with YAM/YSB/YTS potentially. Doesn’t seem like a bad idea to me.

Thenoflyzone wrote:

casperCA wrote:

Thenoflyzone wrote:

It's not surprising at all. YUL is at capacity during peak times. Coupled with the lower operating fees of YHU and the recent WS re-focus out west, makes this rumor very plausible in my book. WS doesn't need to be at YUL. YHU would be enough for their operations. And they won't have to fight with ADM or AC and the rest for gates at YUL.

Given WS has Air France, KLM and several other international airlines in YUL as codeshare and interline partners I think they have a strong motivation for staying in YUL over moving to YHU.

I disagree.

WS currently has ~ 3 flights a day to YUL. 2 to YYZ on the Q, and 1 to YYC on the 737, that doesn't even operate daily. Do you really think they need interline partners to fill those flights? It's 100% O&D out of YUL for WS. They are funneling those passengers to YYZ/YYC for onward connections from there. Not the other way around.

YHU makes total sense for WS in Montreal once that terminal building is built.

If WS makes the move, the biggest winner will be AC who will be able to schedule flights to replace what WS currently operates. The choice would be similar to UA leaving JFK. Easy to do but possibly harder to return afterward if you ever change your mind.

WS' peak summer weekly frequencies are a bit higher though at YUL: 20x YYC, 7x YVR, 7x YYZ, 4x YEG + Sunwing ops.

Great idea to get this thread going, and I have a general question about a topic I have never been able to properly wrap my head around (but I am sure those here can or know this information intimately):

Can someone (or more!) explain the swing-gate situation at YYZ T1? I am looking for and would appreciate as much detail as possible. Part due to experiences (see below) but also I want to learn more about airport infrastructure; in particular my home airport and terminal.

Last year I was consistently a victim of towing-related delays; out of 7 YYZ departures last year, 4 were delayed due to towing. Three of those departures were morning widebody departures YYZ-YVR (equipment came in international either previous night or early that morning), and one departure was to the US (narrow-body, don't recall it's previous flight). The three domestic flights took delays between 45 minutes and 90 minutes, while the US departure was a doozy and took a 3-hour delay.

As a note, all of my flying is on AC out of YYZ.

Thanks!

There is an article out recently looking at Connect Airlines, which will fly out of Billy Bishop to destinations in the U.S. Sounds like they are talking to major U.S. carriers about some sort of a partnership. They also indicate they want to be the first zero emissions carrier in North America, but I do wonder if Harbour Air might beat them on that:

https://www.narcity.com/6-things-to-kno ... ium=social

Changeup2000 wrote:

Thank OP for starting this thread. This is exactly what we need.

For me YXX is a bit more convenient than YVR. However, with Flair not in its best shape, we wonder if YXX can still have that many flights in the future.

On the other hand, AC has not been flying to YXX for a long time. As an Aeroplan SE, I hope it can come back to YXX some day, even if just a Rouge YYZ flight like before.

I do believe in the long run YXX should be an ideal place for the second airport of Metro Vancouver. Fraser Valley is one of the fastest growing region in Canada.

I agree with you on YXX. The population is still a little low in my opinion if YXX is to get more flights / carriers.

These are the municipalities I could see people living in that would choose YXX over YVR due to proximity or ease of access.

Township of Langley Population (2021) 132,603
City of Langley Population (2021) 28,963
Mission Population (2021) 41,519
Abbotsford Population (2021) 153,524
Hope Population (2021) 6,686
Chilliwack Population (2021) 93,203
Maple Ridge Population (2021) 90,990

Total for these municipalities is 547,488.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en ... de=A000259


I'm not sure that would be enough for much more then what's there now. With the options at YVR for Domestic, Trans-border and International flights I think it will be sometime before YXX sees additional service. It would be a great reliver airport to YVR if the population continues to increase out in the valley. Although it would be nice to see AC back in YXX.

aamd11 wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

Question: Do Canadian North yet have a last day of ops scheduled for their sole remaining 732 combi? With its retirement, it will mark the end of scheduled jet operations on gravel runways in the Arctic.

Final scheduled ops on C-GDPA planned for May 6th (5T228 YZF-YCO-YCB-YZF). The aircraft is then expected to position down to YEG for withdrawal.

As of Monday May 8, the 226/228 trips to YCO & YCB switch to ATR42s.

Do you know if that May6 fight down to YEG is on sale?

ryanflyer wrote:

aamd11 wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

Question: Do Canadian North yet have a last day of ops scheduled for their sole remaining 732 combi? With its retirement, it will mark the end of scheduled jet operations on gravel runways in the Arctic.

Final scheduled ops on C-GDPA planned for May 6th (5T228 YZF-YCO-YCB-YZF). The aircraft is then expected to position down to YEG for withdrawal.

As of Monday May 8, the 226/228 trips to YCO & YCB switch to ATR42s.

Do you know if that May6 fight down to YEG is on sale?

According to 5T's website, it isn't.

YYZ757RWY23 wrote:

Great idea to get this thread going, and I have a general question about a topic I have never been able to properly wrap my head around (but I am sure those here can or know this information intimately):

Can someone (or more!) explain the swing-gate situation at YYZ T1? I am looking for and would appreciate as much detail as possible. Part due to experiences (see below) but also I want to learn more about airport infrastructure; in particular my home airport and terminal.

Last year I was consistently a victim of towing-related delays; out of 7 YYZ departures last year, 4 were delayed due to towing. Three of those departures were morning widebody departures YYZ-YVR (equipment came in international either previous night or early that morning), and one departure was to the US (narrow-body, don't recall it's previous flight). The three domestic flights took delays between 45 minutes and 90 minutes, while the US departure was a doozy and took a 3-hour delay.

As a note, all of my flying is on AC out of YYZ.

Thanks!

Domestic and international flights are completely separated at YYZ's terminal 1. Swing gates only exist between F & E (US-Int) gates, and D & F (Dom-US) gates (and of the D and E swing gates, I'm not entirely sure if any of those can actually support widebody aircraft), meaning that an incoming airframe from an international destination must be towed to the D gates in order to be utilized on a domestic run. You can't just drop off the airframe at the D gates because there's no sterile area. Theoretically, you can drop an international widebody off at an F/D swing gate, since it has access to the sterile area, as well as the ability to not be in the preclearance zone, but in practice, the banks make this somewhat difficult to manage. Staffing shortages have dwindled towing resources (and pretty much all staff), so its been a challenge to keep things on time.

Theoretically, however, if you had a domestic arrival flight and sent it to the E gates, you COULD deplane the domestic passengers there, but the walkway back to the D gates is like a 15 minute walk and there are no moving sidewalks. Imagine if you had the itinerary of YVR-YYZ-YHZ. The incoming flight deboards at gate E75 so that it can take its international passengers to London later that evening without requiring a tow. However, your connecting flight is at D39...I hope you enjoy lugging your bags 1 km. Hence, AC sticks to the towing scheme

Here's YOW's February Pax Stats and YTD 2023 numbers:

Sector / Feb-22 / Feb-23 / % Change
Dom: 103,471 / 201,170 / +94.4%
TB: 5,271 / 48,965 / +829.0%
Int'l: 10,432 / 52,325 / +401.6%
TTL: 119,174 / 302,460 / +153.8%

Sector / YTD 2022 / YTD 2023 / % Change
Dom: 201,232 / 405,312 / +101.4%
TB: 10,539 / 91,495 / +768.2%
Int'l: 20,075 / 106,380 / +429.9%
TTL: 231,846 / 603,187 / +160.2%
YTD daily pax count = 10,224 = currently on pace for 3,731,760 pax in 2023 +100K vs January's pace

Month-Over-Month Change
Sector / Jan-23 / Feb-23 / % Change
Dom: 204,142 / 201,170 / -1.5%
TB: 42,530 / 48,965 / +15.1%
Int'l: 54,055 / 52,325 / -3.2%
TTL: 300,727 / 302,460 / +0.6%
Avg/Day: 9,701 / 10,802 / +11.4%
% of month's avg daily pax vs 2019 (13,990 avg pax/day) = 77.2%
YTD TTL vs YTD 2019 = 74.6%

12 Months Rolling / % Change vs Year End 2021
Dom: 2,913,079 / +154.7%
TB: 271,291 / +2,313.2%
Int'l: 179,305 / +11049.6%
TTL: 3,363,675 / +187.3%

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ ... -1.6800153
Maybe CBC reads the posts here lol. They should give a shoutout to Acey

Lamp1009 wrote:

YYZ757RWY23 wrote:

Great idea to get this thread going, and I have a general question about a topic I have never been able to properly wrap my head around (but I am sure those here can or know this information intimately):

Can someone (or more!) explain the swing-gate situation at YYZ T1? I am looking for and would appreciate as much detail as possible. Part due to experiences (see below) but also I want to learn more about airport infrastructure; in particular my home airport and terminal.

Last year I was consistently a victim of towing-related delays; out of 7 YYZ departures last year, 4 were delayed due to towing. Three of those departures were morning widebody departures YYZ-YVR (equipment came in international either previous night or early that morning), and one departure was to the US (narrow-body, don't recall it's previous flight). The three domestic flights took delays between 45 minutes and 90 minutes, while the US departure was a doozy and took a 3-hour delay.

As a note, all of my flying is on AC out of YYZ.

Thanks!

Domestic and international flights are completely separated at YYZ's terminal 1. Swing gates only exist between F & E (US-Int) gates, and D & F (Dom-US) gates (and of the D and E swing gates, I'm not entirely sure if any of those can actually support widebody aircraft), meaning that an incoming airframe from an international destination must be towed to the D gates in order to be utilized on a domestic run. You can't just drop off the airframe at the D gates because there's no sterile area. Theoretically, you can drop an international widebody off at an F/D swing gate, since it has access to the sterile area, as well as the ability to not be in the preclearance zone, but in practice, the banks make this somewhat difficult to manage. Staffing shortages have dwindled towing resources (and pretty much all staff), so its been a challenge to keep things on time.

Theoretically, however, if you had a domestic arrival flight and sent it to the E gates, you COULD deplane the domestic passengers there, but the walkway back to the D gates is like a 15 minute walk and there are no moving sidewalks. Imagine if you had the itinerary of YVR-YYZ-YHZ. The incoming flight deboards at gate E75 so that it can take its international passengers to London later that evening without requiring a tow. However, your connecting flight is at D39...I hope you enjoy lugging your bags 1 km. Hence, AC sticks to the towing scheme

Appreciate the explanation. I understood the problem with an inbound intl widebody docking at the D gates due to customs, but always wondered why they could not use a gate that allowed them to "swing" to being domestic. For now, my next YYZ-YVR flight in a few days is scheduled inbound as a domestic, so here's to hoping 2023 YYZ-YVR runs start off right.

The pilot of that 3-hour delayed US-bound flight was frank with us when we landed in MIA. I asked him as we deplaned "what broke that required that long of a fix or a spare?", and he said "there was no one to tow the plane over". Certainly tracks with all the staffing challenges.

Again, appreciate the insight.

cfcra747 wrote:

Changeup2000 wrote:

Thank OP for starting this thread. This is exactly what we need.

For me YXX is a bit more convenient than YVR. However, with Flair not in its best shape, we wonder if YXX can still have that many flights in the future.

On the other hand, AC has not been flying to YXX for a long time. As an Aeroplan SE, I hope it can come back to YXX some day, even if just a Rouge YYZ flight like before.

I do believe in the long run YXX should be an ideal place for the second airport of Metro Vancouver. Fraser Valley is one of the fastest growing region in Canada.

I agree with you on YXX. The population is still a little low in my opinion if YXX is to get more flights / carriers.

These are the municipalities I could see people living in that would choose YXX over YVR due to proximity or ease of access.

Township of Langley Population (2021) 132,603
City of Langley Population (2021) 28,963
Mission Population (2021) 41,519
Abbotsford Population (2021) 153,524
Hope Population (2021) 6,686
Chilliwack Population (2021) 93,203
Maple Ridge Population (2021) 90,990

Total for these municipalities is 547,488.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en ... de=A000259


I'm not sure that would be enough for much more then what's there now. With the options at YVR for Domestic, Trans-border and International flights I think it will be sometime before YXX sees additional service. It would be a great reliver airport to YVR if the population continues to increase out in the valley. Although it would be nice to see AC back in YXX.

YXX is right off Highway 1 and probably is more convenient to a lot of people living close to it. It is extreme, but when I lived in West Vancouver, I somehow felt it was easier to get to Abbotsford than to YVR. It is just quite a pain to drive through Vancouver City's congested roads.

Changeup2000 wrote:

cfcra747 wrote:

Changeup2000 wrote:

Thank OP for starting this thread. This is exactly what we need.

For me YXX is a bit more convenient than YVR. However, with Flair not in its best shape, we wonder if YXX can still have that many flights in the future.

On the other hand, AC has not been flying to YXX for a long time. As an Aeroplan SE, I hope it can come back to YXX some day, even if just a Rouge YYZ flight like before.

I do believe in the long run YXX should be an ideal place for the second airport of Metro Vancouver. Fraser Valley is one of the fastest growing region in Canada.

I agree with you on YXX. The population is still a little low in my opinion if YXX is to get more flights / carriers.

These are the municipalities I could see people living in that would choose YXX over YVR due to proximity or ease of access.

Township of Langley Population (2021) 132,603
City of Langley Population (2021) 28,963
Mission Population (2021) 41,519
Abbotsford Population (2021) 153,524
Hope Population (2021) 6,686
Chilliwack Population (2021) 93,203
Maple Ridge Population (2021) 90,990

Total for these municipalities is 547,488.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en ... de=A000259


I'm not sure that would be enough for much more then what's there now. With the options at YVR for Domestic, Trans-border and International flights I think it will be sometime before YXX sees additional service. It would be a great reliver airport to YVR if the population continues to increase out in the valley. Although it would be nice to see AC back in YXX.

YXX is right off Highway 1 and probably is more convenient to a lot of people living close to it. It is extreme, but when I lived in West Vancouver, I somehow felt it was easier to get to Abbotsford than to YVR. It is just quite a pain to drive through Vancouver City's congested roads.

Intriguing, though that makes sense the more I think about it, since getting from North Van to Richmond requires driving through Vancouver without a N-S highway to get through quickly. I don't live in BC but my in-laws live in Burnaby. For us folks living in AUS, flying to/from YVR is naturally the logical choice, but my in-laws use YXX sometimes for domestic flights, since it's relatively easy to access using Hwy 1.

Some regional airports in N Ontario (YTS, YAM, YSB, YQT) are still suffering through significant capacity drawdowns which have recovered for some to only about 50% post Covid. They are asking for government assistance to maintain basic airport operations. I think these airports are further impacted with reduced flying at YYZ due to YYZ inability to maintain its own previous airport service levels and these airport are some of the first to be sacrificed.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/ ... -1.6788352

As they have already done for YQT, let's see if Porter looks at YOW as an alternate connection hub for these cities.

YQG and to a lesser extent YXU are right there with the NorOnt airports. At YQG we aren't scheduled to return to a 4x daily schedule until fall. No RON (and therefore no early departure) over summer. At 4x DH4 YQG will be close to the thinner winter schedules pre-COVID. At 3x daily over the summer AC and WS (with 1x daily 737) will be approximately equal in seats. Of course we have other options (PD for instance), as well as VIA which isn't an option in those Northern cities. Been a slow climb out of the covid pit.

YYZ757RWY23 wrote:

Lamp1009 wrote:

YYZ757RWY23 wrote:

Great idea to get this thread going, and I have a general question about a topic I have never been able to properly wrap my head around (but I am sure those here can or know this information intimately):

Can someone (or more!) explain the swing-gate situation at YYZ T1? I am looking for and would appreciate as much detail as possible. Part due to experiences (see below) but also I want to learn more about airport infrastructure; in particular my home airport and terminal.

Last year I was consistently a victim of towing-related delays; out of 7 YYZ departures last year, 4 were delayed due to towing. Three of those departures were morning widebody departures YYZ-YVR (equipment came in international either previous night or early that morning), and one departure was to the US (narrow-body, don't recall it's previous flight). The three domestic flights took delays between 45 minutes and 90 minutes, while the US departure was a doozy and took a 3-hour delay.

As a note, all of my flying is on AC out of YYZ.

Thanks!

Domestic and international flights are completely separated at YYZ's terminal 1. Swing gates only exist between F & E (US-Int) gates, and D & F (Dom-US) gates (and of the D and E swing gates, I'm not entirely sure if any of those can actually support widebody aircraft), meaning that an incoming airframe from an international destination must be towed to the D gates in order to be utilized on a domestic run. You can't just drop off the airframe at the D gates because there's no sterile area. Theoretically, you can drop an international widebody off at an F/D swing gate, since it has access to the sterile area, as well as the ability to not be in the preclearance zone, but in practice, the banks make this somewhat difficult to manage. Staffing shortages have dwindled towing resources (and pretty much all staff), so its been a challenge to keep things on time.

Theoretically, however, if you had a domestic arrival flight and sent it to the E gates, you COULD deplane the domestic passengers there, but the walkway back to the D gates is like a 15 minute walk and there are no moving sidewalks. Imagine if you had the itinerary of YVR-YYZ-YHZ. The incoming flight deboards at gate E75 so that it can take its international passengers to London later that evening without requiring a tow. However, your connecting flight is at D39...I hope you enjoy lugging your bags 1 km. Hence, AC sticks to the towing scheme

Appreciate the explanation. I understood the problem with an inbound intl widebody docking at the D gates due to customs, but always wondered why they could not use a gate that allowed them to "swing" to being domestic. For now, my next YYZ-YVR flight in a few days is scheduled inbound as a domestic, so here's to hoping 2023 YYZ-YVR runs start off right.

The pilot of that 3-hour delayed US-bound flight was frank with us when we landed in MIA. I asked him as we deplaned "what broke that required that long of a fix or a spare?", and he said "there was no one to tow the plane over". Certainly tracks with all the staffing challenges.

Again, appreciate the insight.

Here is a map of T1. D is Domestic, F is Transborder Preclearance and E is Overseas (international except U.S. Preclearance). There are no D gates adjacent to the E zone because the F zone is between them. I believe the only airport with three zones that had swing gates that worked with all three was Calgary, but I understand that since the pandemic, they no longer maintain a separate zone for non-U.S. international flights; they're mixed with domestic. They managed that by having the U.S. transborder section separated from the outbound overseas section vertically in the new international terminal. I suppose another way to do that would be to design a round donut shaped terminal. Then each zone could be adjacent to the other two.

https://airport-toronto.com/terminal-1- ... rport-yyz/

Before moving to the USA I lived in North Surrey and it was much easier driving to YXX then YVR. Usually 30 minutes faster straight down highway 1. I loved my years in Abbotsford as well and still consider it my home town.

drgmobile wrote:

YYZ757RWY23 wrote:

Lamp1009 wrote:

Domestic and international flights are completely separated at YYZ's terminal 1. Swing gates only exist between F & E (US-Int) gates, and D & F (Dom-US) gates (and of the D and E swing gates, I'm not entirely sure if any of those can actually support widebody aircraft), meaning that an incoming airframe from an international destination must be towed to the D gates in order to be utilized on a domestic run. You can't just drop off the airframe at the D gates because there's no sterile area. Theoretically, you can drop an international widebody off at an F/D swing gate, since it has access to the sterile area, as well as the ability to not be in the preclearance zone, but in practice, the banks make this somewhat difficult to manage. Staffing shortages have dwindled towing resources (and pretty much all staff), so its been a challenge to keep things on time.

Theoretically, however, if you had a domestic arrival flight and sent it to the E gates, you COULD deplane the domestic passengers there, but the walkway back to the D gates is like a 15 minute walk and there are no moving sidewalks. Imagine if you had the itinerary of YVR-YYZ-YHZ. The incoming flight deboards at gate E75 so that it can take its international passengers to London later that evening without requiring a tow. However, your connecting flight is at D39...I hope you enjoy lugging your bags 1 km. Hence, AC sticks to the towing scheme

Appreciate the explanation. I understood the problem with an inbound intl widebody docking at the D gates due to customs, but always wondered why they could not use a gate that allowed them to "swing" to being domestic. For now, my next YYZ-YVR flight in a few days is scheduled inbound as a domestic, so here's to hoping 2023 YYZ-YVR runs start off right.

The pilot of that 3-hour delayed US-bound flight was frank with us when we landed in MIA. I asked him as we deplaned "what broke that required that long of a fix or a spare?", and he said "there was no one to tow the plane over". Certainly tracks with all the staffing challenges.

Again, appreciate the insight.

Here is a map of T1. D is Domestic, F is Transborder Preclearance and E is Overseas (international except U.S. Preclearance). There are no D gates adjacent to the E zone because the F zone is between them. I believe the only airport with three zones that had swing gates that worked with all three was Calgary, but I understand that since the pandemic, they no longer maintain a separate zone for non-U.S. international flights; they're mixed with domestic. They managed that by having the U.S. transborder section separated from the outbound overseas section vertically in the new international terminal. I suppose another way to do that would be to design a round donut shaped terminal. Then each zone could be adjacent to the other two.

https://airport-toronto.com/terminal-1- ... rport-yyz/

From this map, it seems busing would be the best solution to bring domestic pax to a plane freshly arrived at the international gates (E) quickly. Although I understand it may take quite a few buses to fill a 77W.