FAA asks airlines to voluntarily return slots at EWR/LGA/JFK and DCA

LAXintl · Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:34 pm

Citing staffing and operational constraints, the FAA is encouraging airlines to voluntarily and temporarily return up to 10% of their slots at JFK, LGA, EWR and DCA for period betweem May 15 and September 15 and avoid the need to "squat" on slots with commercially needless services.

FAA notice (pdf)
https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files ... nature.pdf

23463245613 · Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:45 pm

Proposed solution to LGA. Allow slots to be converted to beyond perimeter at a ratio. Hand in say 10 slots, get 7 beyond perimeter back. Takes a few planes out of the skies.

STT757 · Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:51 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
Proposed solution to LGA. Allow slots to be converted to beyond perimeter at a ratio. Hand in say 10 slots, get 7 beyond perimeter back. Takes a few planes out of the skies.

The problem is the jurisdictions, the perimeter rule is a local Port Authority policy to protect Kennedy airport. Slots are an FAA deal. The FAA doesn't care who flies where, they only care about how many planes operate there during certain times.

23463245613 · Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:52 pm

STT757 wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Proposed solution to LGA. Allow slots to be converted to beyond perimeter at a ratio. Hand in say 10 slots, get 7 beyond perimeter back. Takes a few planes out of the skies.

The problem is the jurisdictions, the perimeter rule is a local Port Authority policy to protect Kennedy airport. Slots are an FAA deal. The FAA doesn't care who flies where, they only care about how many planes operate there during certain times.

I get it, just would be a nice solution.
Port Authority should be broken up like BAA was for London airports, but that’s a different story all together.

FlyingElvii · Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:59 pm

Sounds as if the FAA is already expecting issues for summer in the Northeast.

Now honestly, who is willingly going to give up LGA slots putting themselves at a future competitive disadvantage?

LAXintl · Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:10 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Now honestly, who is willingly going to give up LGA slots putting themselves at a future competitive disadvantage?

In my opinion, airlines will welcome this and will return slots and trim their schedules during the period.
There are too many examples of non-economic flying for sake of slot squatting. The crew and aircraft resources can be used elsewhere for better returns.

SteelChair · Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:10 pm

Finally. It only took, what 30 or 40 years?

This probably won't get much play here or in the main stream news, but this is actually huge. This is the United States Government finally admitting that they cannot meet their longstanding commitments. So much for progress, we haven't even approached the traffic levels of 1999-2000 and 2006-2007. Why can't the ATC system handle the same volume of traffic as they did in the previous peaks? Why the regression?

If the government were a private company who welched on their promises (contracts?), the government would be forced to pay restitution. Being that this is the government, and they're all powerful, that won't even be considered. Those slots have value, and were acquired at great cost over a long period of time by the institutions who own them. The slot owners shouldn't just surrender assets that they own.

Having said all that, the airlines would probably welcome less competition. Taking seats out of the market will drive up prices. How does the government reconcile that conflict?

The US government is talking about holding up, or disapproving, the teeny (compared to the big 4 airlines mergers of 10-15 years ago) JetBlue/Spirit merger because they claim (ridiculously imho) that it is anti-competitive. Yet, at the same time the government is restricting capacity because they can no longer manage air traffic efficiently.

Sadly, these and so many other implications, will probably fall by the wayside, dismissed as background noise compared to other issues.

Maybe we'll see the 767-400 at LGA.

CriticalPoint · Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:14 pm

Yeah United isn’t going to give up anything in EWR….the FAA burned them bad during the construction by letting JetBlue to bulk up with no limit.

EWR is a mess right now because of that.

chonetsao · Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:20 pm

How do you define 'commercially needless' service though?If airline argues it is essential service to a community, or it is vital for connection...etc., How FAA enforce which flight to cut if it has to?

UPlog · Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:35 pm

LAXintl wrote:

In my opinion, airlines will welcome this and will return slots and trim their schedules during the period.
There are too many examples of non-economic flying for sake of slot squatting. The crew and aircraft resources can be used elsewhere for better returns.

If not for fear of losing slots, airlines would not be operating all the flying they do. This offer will be a win-win to shed slot squatting flights and move them to more productive uses.

casinterest · Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:46 pm

It is all well and good, but in competitive markets driven by artificial slot limits, there are going to be squatters.
Since this is voluntary, I highly doubt many will comply. Especially with what looks to be a lucrative summer travel season.

EWR22LAS25 · Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:11 pm

That's scheduled to happen the same day that the state is renamed New Amsterdam.

TonyClifton wrote:
STT757 wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Proposed solution to LGA. Allow slots to be converted to beyond perimeter at a ratio. Hand in say 10 slots, get 7 beyond perimeter back. Takes a few planes out of the skies.

The problem is the jurisdictions, the perimeter rule is a local Port Authority policy to protect Kennedy airport. Slots are an FAA deal. The FAA doesn't care who flies where, they only care about how many planes operate there during certain times.

I get it, just would be a nice solution.
Port Authority should be broken up like BAA was for London airports, but that’s a different story all together.

23463245613 · Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:13 pm

EWR22LAS25 wrote:
That's scheduled to happen the same day that the state is renamed New Amsterdam.

TonyClifton wrote:
STT757 wrote:

The problem is the jurisdictions, the perimeter rule is a local Port Authority policy to protect Kennedy airport. Slots are an FAA deal. The FAA doesn't care who flies where, they only care about how many planes operate there during certain times.

I get it, just would be a nice solution.
Port Authority should be broken up like BAA was for London airports, but that’s a different story all together.

A man can dream. Imagine three airports actually having to compete for passengers in NYC, rather than a cartel that only made a change due to airlines investing their own money in it.

Anyways, curious what would be cut out of the slots.

jetblastdubai · Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:30 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
Anyways, curious what would be cut out of the slots.

Right off the top of my head, UA's 18 daily, 50-seater, flights between slotted DCA and delay-leader EWR.

As long as the FAA proposal is voluntary, the airline(s) that comply will lose out to the ones that choose not to.

MIflyer12 · Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:35 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Having said all that, the airlines would probably welcome less competition. Taking seats out of the market will drive up prices. How does the government reconcile that conflict?

Carriers don't have to take seats out of the market - just frequencies. There's no conflict to reconcile.

MIflyer12 · Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:36 pm

jetblastdubai wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Anyways, curious what would be cut out of the slots.

Right off the top of my head, UA's 18 daily, 50-seater, flights between slotted DCA and delay-leader EWR.

As long as the FAA proposal is voluntary, the airline(s) that comply will lose out to the ones that choose not to.

How's that? Carriers that continue to fly with 30% load factors can lose money. This proposal is a gift for carriers smart enough to take it.

stl07 · Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:39 pm

I see some of the Midwest routes getting some positive changes due to this. Instead of running shuttle like service on RJs, some of the airlines might just consolidate onto a few flights a day on an a319/737

leader1 · Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:47 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Finally. It only took, what 30 or 40 years?

This probably won't get much play here or in the main stream news, but this is actually huge. This is the United States Government finally admitting that they cannot meet their longstanding commitments. So much for progress, we haven't even approached the traffic levels of 1999-2000 and 2006-2007. Why can't the ATC system handle the same volume of traffic as they did in the previous peaks? Why the regression?

If the government were a private company who welched on their promises (contracts?), the government would be forced to pay restitution. Being that this is the government, and they're all powerful, that won't even be considered. Those slots have value, and were acquired at great cost over a long period of time by the institutions who own them. The slot owners shouldn't just surrender assets that they own.

N90 staffing shortages have always been a big issue, even back when I worked in the industry from 2006-2010. They've had a really long time to get their act together and still can't. Crazy they're at half headcount compared to the other facilities, which are understaffed by 20%.

TangoandCash · Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:47 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Finally. It only took, what 30 or 40 years?

This probably won't get much play here or in the main stream news, but this is actually huge. This is the United States Government finally admitting that they cannot meet their longstanding commitments. So much for progress, we haven't even approached the traffic levels of 1999-2000 and 2006-2007. Why can't the ATC system handle the same volume of traffic as they did in the previous peaks? Why the regression?

I wish this would get some play on the national news--someone is finally admitting that the system is broken. I will be the first to admit that I don't know how the system is supposed to work, why it's not working now*, or how to fix it. But the first step is to admit there's a problem. NYC and Florida for starters, which don't surprise me as the first two failure points--NYC airspace and Florda weather/increased demand.

*But I will speculate: staffing and lack thereof will probably be one of the first reasons brought up for why things aren't working.

ty97 · Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:52 pm

The FAA apparently specifically mentioned DCA, where we all know there are a plethora of regional jets from NYC. Of course DCA is slot controlled too, so the FAA will allow anyone who temporarily drops, say, an LGA-DCA flight to retain the slot on both ends. Smart, actually.

Looks like DL/UA have indicated they are receptive to the slot waiver concept (no mention regarding which slots/routes would be impacted). AA is mulling it over.

https://paxex.aero/faa-staffing-nyc-slot-relief/

Boof02671 · Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:53 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
Yeah United isn’t going to give up anything in EWR….the FAA burned them bad during the construction by letting JetBlue to bulk up with no limit.

EWR is a mess right now because of that.

EWR hasn’t been slot controlled for years.

FlyingElvii · Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:56 pm

stl07 wrote:
I see some of the Midwest routes getting some positive changes due to this. Instead of running shuttle like service on RJs, some of the airlines might just consolidate onto a few flights a day on an a319/737

Frequency wins every single time, costs or not. This isn’t theory, it has been proven for decades.

The ONLY way to stop it from winning is to reregulate the airline system, recreate the CAB, and assign routes to only one or two airlines, as it was before 1978.

And that will not happen in our lifetimes.

ty97 · Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:56 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Yeah United isn’t going to give up anything in EWR….the FAA burned them bad during the construction by letting JetBlue to bulk up with no limit.

EWR is a mess right now because of that.

EWR hasn’t been slot controlled for years.

DCA is though, so UA could potentially consolidate their EWR-DCA flights for the waiver period without putting the DCA slots at risk.

ty97 · Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:57 pm

ty97 wrote:
The FAA apparently specifically mentioned DCA re: the NYC air traffic issue, where we all know there are a plethora of regional jets from NYC. Of course DCA is slot controlled too, so the FAA will allow anyone who temporarily drops, say, an LGA-DCA flight to retain the slot on both ends. Smart, actually.

Looks like DL/UA have indicated they are receptive to the slot waiver concept (no mention regarding which slots/routes would be impacted). AA is mulling it over.

https://paxex.aero/faa-staffing-nyc-slot-relief/

leader1 · Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:57 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Yeah United isn’t going to give up anything in EWR….the FAA burned them bad during the construction by letting JetBlue to bulk up with no limit.

EWR is a mess right now because of that.

EWR hasn’t been slot controlled for years.

But it is "schedule facilitated". The FAA won't let operations over 79 movements an hour.

Polot · Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:05 pm

jetblastdubai wrote:

As long as the FAA proposal is voluntary, the airline(s) that comply will lose out to the ones that choose not to.

Only if other airlines are allowed to use those slots, which it sounds like they won’t be able to.

DL voluntarily suspending use a few slots at LGA at FAA’s request doesn’t mean they are up for grabs and that F9, for example, suddenly has more LGA slots they can use.

EWR is the only complication, but FAA could theoretically lower max amount of daily movements for an hour based on number of slots suspended in that hour.

ddaly241 · Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:07 pm

Has there been a proposal for a new redesign of the NYC airspace? There would have to be one soon if airspace is a problem for the NYC airports and DCA. Larger aircraft for now will solve the issue, but long term won’t, because aircraft movements is just going to keep increasing.

leader1 · Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:20 pm

ddaly241 wrote:
Has there been a proposal for a new redesign of the NYC airspace? There would have to be one soon if airspace is a problem for the NYC airports and DCA. Larger aircraft for now will solve the issue, but long term won’t, because aircraft movements is just going to keep increasing.

There was, but it was canned back in 2013.

evank516 · Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:32 pm

stl07 wrote:
I see some of the Midwest routes getting some positive changes due to this. Instead of running shuttle like service on RJs, some of the airlines might just consolidate onto a few flights a day on an a319/737

I agree with this. I could see some upgauges to the likes of IND, MKE, MCI, BNA, and STL happening for the summer.

I expect we will see some interesting schedule changes in the next two weeks as a result.

N292UX · Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:39 pm

stl07 wrote:
I see some of the Midwest routes getting some positive changes due to this. Instead of running shuttle like service on RJs, some of the airlines might just consolidate onto a few flights a day on an a319/737

It's mostly aimed at the blatantly obvious slot squatting routes airlines like DL and UA are running out of LGA/EWR. Routes like LGA-BGM/SCE/BDL and EWR-AVP/MDT/ITH

PSU.DTW.SCE · Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:43 pm

I wonder if DL was aware of this coming and hence why they pulled LGA-DAL so quickly.

IADCA · Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:48 pm

Did people miss the words "temporary" and "voluntary" or not read the link? The surrender of slots is from May to September 15 of this year. After that, it all goes back to what it was before. Nobody's losing anything permanent.

FlyingElvii wrote:
Sounds as if the FAA is already expecting issues for summer in the Northeast.

Now honestly, who is willingly going to give up LGA slots putting themselves at a future competitive disadvantage?

They get the slots back in September. There's not any long-term harm here if they can't find a place to use them profitably over the summer.

chonetsao wrote:
How do you define 'commercially needless' service though?If airline argues it is essential service to a community, or it is vital for connection...etc., How FAA enforce which flight to cut if it has to?

It's VOLUNTARY. Nobody is being forced to give up slots if they don't want to.

These dudes get it:

evank516 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
I see some of the Midwest routes getting some positive changes due to this. Instead of running shuttle like service on RJs, some of the airlines might just consolidate onto a few flights a day on an a319/737

I agree with this. I could see some upgauges to the likes of IND, MKE, MCI, BNA, and STL happening for the summer.

I expect we will see some interesting schedule changes in the next two weeks as a result.

There's a real chance for carriers to mitigate some regional staffing woes here. It wouldn't be a huge number of flights, but at DCA in particular there are slots that are RJ-only. If you can return those this summer for flights that are largely squatting or fleet rotation and then get them back in the fall, it's a potential benefit to get planes and crews elsewhere.

evank516 · Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:19 pm

IADCA wrote:
Did people miss the words "temporary" and "voluntary" or not read the link? The surrender of slots is from May to September 15 of this year. After that, it all goes back to what it was before. Nobody's losing anything permanent.

FlyingElvii wrote:
Sounds as if the FAA is already expecting issues for summer in the Northeast.

Now honestly, who is willingly going to give up LGA slots putting themselves at a future competitive disadvantage?

They get the slots back in September. There's not any long-term harm here if they can't find a place to use them profitably over the summer.

chonetsao wrote:
How do you define 'commercially needless' service though?If airline argues it is essential service to a community, or it is vital for connection...etc., How FAA enforce which flight to cut if it has to?

It's VOLUNTARY. Nobody is being forced to give up slots if they don't want to.

These dudes get it:

evank516 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
I see some of the Midwest routes getting some positive changes due to this. Instead of running shuttle like service on RJs, some of the airlines might just consolidate onto a few flights a day on an a319/737

I agree with this. I could see some upgauges to the likes of IND, MKE, MCI, BNA, and STL happening for the summer.

I expect we will see some interesting schedule changes in the next two weeks as a result.

There's a real chance for carriers to mitigate some regional staffing woes here. It wouldn't be a huge number of flights, but at DCA in particular there are slots that are RJ-only. If you can return those this summer for flights that are largely squatting or fleet rotation and then get them back in the fall, it's a potential benefit to get planes and crews elsewhere.

Agreed. Staffing at regionals is not in the best shape. It's best to use the resources they do have at the regionals to sustain markets that can't support even small mainline aircraft. In the high frequency RJ markets to mid-sized cities, cut the frequencies in half and upgauge the equipment.

I read an article (sorry I lost the link) that stated UA and DL have already agreed to participate.

FlyingElvii · Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:56 pm

evank516 wrote:
IADCA wrote:
Did people miss the words "temporary" and "voluntary" or not read the link? The surrender of slots is from May to September 15 of this year. After that, it all goes back to what it was before. Nobody's losing anything permanent.

FlyingElvii wrote:
Sounds as if the FAA is already expecting issues for summer in the Northeast.

Now honestly, who is willingly going to give up LGA slots putting themselves at a future competitive disadvantage?

They get the slots back in September. There's not any long-term harm here if they can't find a place to use them profitably over the summer.

chonetsao wrote:
How do you define 'commercially needless' service though?If airline argues it is essential service to a community, or it is vital for connection...etc., How FAA enforce which flight to cut if it has to?

It's VOLUNTARY. Nobody is being forced to give up slots if they don't want to.

These dudes get it:

evank516 wrote:

I agree with this. I could see some upgauges to the likes of IND, MKE, MCI, BNA, and STL happening for the summer.

I expect we will see some interesting schedule changes in the next two weeks as a result.

There's a real chance for carriers to mitigate some regional staffing woes here. It wouldn't be a huge number of flights, but at DCA in particular there are slots that are RJ-only. If you can return those this summer for flights that are largely squatting or fleet rotation and then get them back in the fall, it's a potential benefit to get planes and crews elsewhere.

Agreed. Staffing at regionals is not in the best shape. It's best to use the resources they do have at the regionals to sustain markets that can't support even small mainline aircraft. In the high frequency RJ markets to mid-sized cities, cut the frequencies in half and upgauge the equipment.

I read an article (sorry I lost the link) that stated UA and DL have already agreed to participate.

While AA is waiting to see if they actually follow through, so that they can sell more seats, it seems….

TWA772LR · Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:05 pm

SteelChair wrote:
The US government is talking about holding up, or disapproving, the teeny (compared to the big 4 airlines mergers of 10-15 years ago) JetBlue/Spirit merger because they claim (ridiculously imho) that it is anti-competitive. Yet, at the same time the government is restricting capacity because they can no longer manage air traffic efficiently.

The FAA (DOT) is asking this. The DOJ is blocking the merger. Comparatively or not, B6/NK is a huge merger. And flights won't be reduced, the combined entity would still fly the full schedule between the 2 airlines pending (microscopic compared to the whole schedule) concessions. And concessions in the sense of CO giving up a tiny amount of EWR slots to have that merger approved.

IADCA · Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:49 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
evank516 wrote:
IADCA wrote:
Did people miss the words "temporary" and "voluntary" or not read the link? The surrender of slots is from May to September 15 of this year. After that, it all goes back to what it was before. Nobody's losing anything permanent.

They get the slots back in September. There's not any long-term harm here if they can't find a place to use them profitably over the summer.

It's VOLUNTARY. Nobody is being forced to give up slots if they don't want to.

These dudes get it:

There's a real chance for carriers to mitigate some regional staffing woes here. It wouldn't be a huge number of flights, but at DCA in particular there are slots that are RJ-only. If you can return those this summer for flights that are largely squatting or fleet rotation and then get them back in the fall, it's a potential benefit to get planes and crews elsewhere.

Agreed. Staffing at regionals is not in the best shape. It's best to use the resources they do have at the regionals to sustain markets that can't support even small mainline aircraft. In the high frequency RJ markets to mid-sized cities, cut the frequencies in half and upgauge the equipment.

I read an article (sorry I lost the link) that stated UA and DL have already agreed to participate.

While AA is waiting to see if they actually follow through, so that they can sell more seats, it seems….

Or to see if they can fly fewer seats without losing market share or money. Welcome to the realities of a highly-concentrated industry, and if you don't like any of this behavior, thank the DOJ of 10-20 years ago for not challenging mergers.

Midwestindy · Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:39 pm

evank516 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
I see some of the Midwest routes getting some positive changes due to this. Instead of running shuttle like service on RJs, some of the airlines might just consolidate onto a few flights a day on an a319/737

I agree with this. I could see some upgauges to the likes of IND, MKE, MCI, BNA, and STL happening for the summer.

I expect we will see some interesting schedule changes in the next two weeks as a result.

How exactly is that a positive change? Not trying to be sarcastic.

I'd take 5 daily E175s over 2-3 daily A319s any day, especially on a business route.

Plus the E175s have the same or slightly more F/Y+ seating.

RyanairGuru · Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:57 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Yeah United isn’t going to give up anything in EWR….the FAA burned them bad during the construction by letting JetBlue to bulk up with no limit.

EWR is a mess right now because of that.

EWR hasn’t been slot controlled for years.

You’re missing the point. EWR is still a level 2 controlled airport. United agreed to voluntarily reduce their schedule during runway works, only for the FAA to allow JetBlue to over-schedule and backfill the lost capacity. The FAA really screwed United in the process, so it’s unclear why they would trust them again. In many ways it’s easier to voluntarily reduce service, as proposed this time around, at a level 1 slot controlled airport as those slots become dormant, so a competitor can’t grow into that space.

STT757 · Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:06 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
STT757 wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Proposed solution to LGA. Allow slots to be converted to beyond perimeter at a ratio. Hand in say 10 slots, get 7 beyond perimeter back. Takes a few planes out of the skies.

The problem is the jurisdictions, the perimeter rule is a local Port Authority policy to protect Kennedy airport. Slots are an FAA deal. The FAA doesn't care who flies where, they only care about how many planes operate there during certain times.

I get it, just would be a nice solution.
Port Authority should be broken up like BAA was for London airports, but that’s a different story all together.

I'm all for the Port Authority coming up with some kind of allowance for a limited number of outside perimeter flights.

UA LGA-SFO, DL LGA-SLC, AA LGA-PHX, NK LGA-LAS etc.

zuckie13 · Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:08 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
evank516 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
I see some of the Midwest routes getting some positive changes due to this. Instead of running shuttle like service on RJs, some of the airlines might just consolidate onto a few flights a day on an a319/737

I agree with this. I could see some upgauges to the likes of IND, MKE, MCI, BNA, and STL happening for the summer.

I expect we will see some interesting schedule changes in the next two weeks as a result.

How exactly is that a positive change? Not trying to be sarcastic.

I'd take 5 daily E175s over 2-3 daily A319s any day, especially on a business route.

Plus the E175s have the same or slightly more F/Y+ seating.

Really depends on from whose perspective. You are right, a business traveler wants frequency. A leisure traveler cares more about cost probably, so if the seat is cheaper on a A319 that sees 90%+ capacity used vs an E175 seeing 70% capacity they want that.

Right now, the airlines may want the fewer flights due to staffing challenges. Having 5 scheduled a day and having one get canceled every other day due to no pilot available is a problem too.

23463245613 · Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:28 pm

STT757 wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
STT757 wrote:

The problem is the jurisdictions, the perimeter rule is a local Port Authority policy to protect Kennedy airport. Slots are an FAA deal. The FAA doesn't care who flies where, they only care about how many planes operate there during certain times.

I get it, just would be a nice solution.
Port Authority should be broken up like BAA was for London airports, but that’s a different story all together.

I'm all for the Port Authority coming up with some kind of allowance for a limited number of outside perimeter flights.

UA LGA-SFO, DL LGA-SLC, AA LGA-PHX, NK LGA-LAS etc.

DCA does it well.

EWR22LAS25 · Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:32 pm

That Cartel manages more than just the three airports. I'm not saying it's a perfect PA, but having worked at airports across the country, I will take PANYNJ over any of them any day.

TonyClifton wrote:
EWR22LAS25 wrote:
That's scheduled to happen the same day that the state is renamed New Amsterdam.

TonyClifton wrote:
I get it, just would be a nice solution.
Port Authority should be broken up like BAA was for London airports, but that’s a different story all together.

A man can dream. Imagine three airports actually having to compete for passengers in NYC, rather than a cartel that only made a change due to airlines investing their own money in it.

Anyways, curious what would be cut out of the slots.

evank516 · Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:08 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
evank516 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
I see some of the Midwest routes getting some positive changes due to this. Instead of running shuttle like service on RJs, some of the airlines might just consolidate onto a few flights a day on an a319/737

I agree with this. I could see some upgauges to the likes of IND, MKE, MCI, BNA, and STL happening for the summer.

I expect we will see some interesting schedule changes in the next two weeks as a result.

How exactly is that a positive change? Not trying to be sarcastic.

I'd take 5 daily E175s over 2-3 daily A319s any day, especially on a business route.

Plus the E175s have the same or slightly more F/Y+ seating.

Business travel is down, and it's going to stay down for a while. Frequencies aren't necessary. The slots can be better utilized in unserved markets that don't have service because of slot restrictions, or they can be temporarily surrendered for the summer.

Personally, I'd take 2 daily A220s over 5 E175s. Especially on routes over 1,000 miles.

BB78710 · Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:34 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Sounds as if the FAA is already expecting issues for summer in the Northeast.

Now honestly, who is willingly going to give up LGA slots putting themselves at a future competitive disadvantage?

I think most if not all the airlines will go for this.

Imagine how many flights would be removed from the NYC area alone if AA, DL, UA and B6 eliminated every flight that is only operating because they are slot squatting? Let's start there get rid of every flight that only exist to slot squat. Those flights serve no competitive purpose at all, they only exist because the airline wishes to hold on to their valuable slots. Now the FAA is saying for S23 you don't have to worry about the use it or loose rule because we will return those slots to you at the end of the summer travel season.

Midwestindy · Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:57 pm

evank516 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
evank516 wrote:

I agree with this. I could see some upgauges to the likes of IND, MKE, MCI, BNA, and STL happening for the summer.

I expect we will see some interesting schedule changes in the next two weeks as a result.

How exactly is that a positive change? Not trying to be sarcastic.

I'd take 5 daily E175s over 2-3 daily A319s any day, especially on a business route.

Plus the E175s have the same or slightly more F/Y+ seating.

Business travel is down, and it's going to stay down for a while. Frequencies aren't necessary. The slots can be better utilized in unserved markets that don't have service because of slot restrictions, or they can be temporarily surrendered for the summer.

Personally, I'd take 2 daily A220s over 5 E175s. Especially on routes over 1,000 miles.

Eh....business travel is at 80% of 2019 (with the middle of the country higher than that).

Regardless, 90% of leisure travelers don't know the difference between the E175 & A220, and assuming prices are the same, I'd guarantee you all of that 90% would rather have 5 flight options than 2 flight options when planning their trip.

If I'm planning a weekend trip with the family and my only Friday options are 8am & 2pm, that is a huge difference than having 7am, 10am, 1pm, 3pm, & 5pm options (even if solely for re-accommodation purposes)

Midwestindy · Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:00 pm

BB78710 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Sounds as if the FAA is already expecting issues for summer in the Northeast.

Now honestly, who is willingly going to give up LGA slots putting themselves at a future competitive disadvantage?

I think most if not all the airlines will go for this.

Imagine how many flights would be removed from the NYC area alone if AA, DL, UA and B6 eliminated every flight that is only operating because they are slot squatting? Let's start there get rid of every flight that only exist to slot squat. Those flights serve no competitive purpose at all, they only exist because the airline wishes to hold on to their valuable slots. Now the FAA is saying for S23 you don't have to worry about the use it or loose rule because we will return those slots to you at the end of the summer travel season.

Agreed, airlines would definitely want to move this flying to more profitable areas, Cranky put out a good article about NYC being a laggard:

https://crankyflier.com/2023/03/23/amer ... york-city/

tinpusher007 · Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:30 pm

STT757 wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
STT757 wrote:

The problem is the jurisdictions, the perimeter rule is a local Port Authority policy to protect Kennedy airport. Slots are an FAA deal. The FAA doesn't care who flies where, they only care about how many planes operate there during certain times.

I get it, just would be a nice solution.
Port Authority should be broken up like BAA was for London airports, but that’s a different story all together.

I'm all for the Port Authority coming up with some kind of allowance for a limited number of outside perimeter flights.

UA LGA-SFO, DL LGA-SLC, AA LGA-PHX, NK LGA-LAS etc.

Why limit it? They should open it all up. The perimeter rule is way past its prime. JFK doesnt need to be protected anymore and there are aircraft more than capable of flying nonstop to the west coast off LGA's 7000ft runways. In 2023, the perimeter rule needs to go away.

23463245613 · Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:39 pm

tinpusher007 wrote:
STT757 wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
I get it, just would be a nice solution.
Port Authority should be broken up like BAA was for London airports, but that’s a different story all together.

I'm all for the Port Authority coming up with some kind of allowance for a limited number of outside perimeter flights.

UA LGA-SFO, DL LGA-SLC, AA LGA-PHX, NK LGA-LAS etc.

Why limit it? They should open it all up. The perimeter rule is way past its prime. JFK doesnt need to be protected anymore and there are aircraft more than capable of flying nonstop to the west coast off LGA's 7000ft runways. In 2023, the perimeter rule needs to go away.

Bingo. LGA has new terminals better capable of handling larger aircraft in the gate areas. Prime picking for JB to run some Mint stuff LGA-LAX, united Polaris etc. Opens up JFK capacity for more international too, that LGA can’t handle.

strfyr51 · Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:08 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Sounds as if the FAA is already expecting issues for summer in the Northeast.

Now honestly, who is willingly going to give up LGA slots putting themselves at a future competitive disadvantage?

have any giving up the slots is Dicey at best because you won't have any guarantee you'll get the slots Back!

TVNWZ · Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:45 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
evank516 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

How exactly is that a positive change? Not trying to be sarcastic.

I'd take 5 daily E175s over 2-3 daily A319s any day, especially on a business route.

Plus the E175s have the same or slightly more F/Y+ seating.

Business travel is down, and it's going to stay down for a while. Frequencies aren't necessary. The slots can be better utilized in unserved markets that don't have service because of slot restrictions, or they can be temporarily surrendered for the summer.

Personally, I'd take 2 daily A220s over 5 E175s. Especially on routes over 1,000 miles.

Eh....business travel is at 80% of 2019 (with the middle of the country higher than that).

Regardless, 90% of leisure travelers don't know the difference between the E175 & A220, and assuming prices are the same, I'd guarantee you all of that 90% would rather have 5 flight options than 2 flight options when planning their trip.

If I'm planning a weekend trip with the family and my only Friday options are 8am & 2pm, that is a huge difference than having 7am, 10am, 1pm, 3pm, & 5pm options (even if solely for re-accommodation purposes)

So, you won’t go? Or would you pick from the two options?

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