I didn't see this posted anywhere. Maybe it'll really happen at this seasons upcoming airshows. If you have anymore knowledge on this, I'd love to read about it.

https://simpleflying.com/ryanair-discus ... max-order/
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/ryan ... ks-restart

Des in ILM,

MOL knows he better get in line, spots are running out.

Despite what Calhous says about pricing as a loyal customer I would hope Boeing would ultimately make Ryanair a deal too good to turn down. Boeing needs to protect their European customer base.

cv5880 wrote:

Despite what Calhous says about pricing as a loyal customer I would hope Boeing would ultimately make Ryanair a deal too good to turn down. Boeing needs to protect their European customer base.

Where else can Ryanair go? Airbus told them to go pound sand (well, not really, but Airbus will not play that game again. Once bitten, twice shy), Sukhoi/Tupolev/Irkut are a no-go right now (besides, the SSJ is too small, Tu-204 too big for Ryanair and the MC-21 is... well, it's the MC-21) and COMAC is barely getting its C919 out of the factory.
So, at the end of the day, Ryanair is stuck with Boeing, for better or for worse.

I expect in the absence of bargain basement prices Ryanair will only commit to as much as they need for current growth plans along with options and will then wait for a crisis (which might never come) to place a big order.

cv5880 wrote:

Despite what Calhous says about pricing as a loyal customer I would hope Boeing would ultimately make Ryanair a deal too good to turn down. Boeing needs to protect their European customer base.

In Ryanair's Q3Result FY23 they describe the 737-8200 as 'Gamechanger'. The MAX10 will be superior for Ryanair's short avg stage lengths. Look at this Boeing chart that got repeated by Leeham.

https://leehamnews.com/wp-content/uploa ... 21Econ.png

There is no better narrowboy choice for moving lots of people short-haul, particularly for a carrier that already operates 400+ 737NGs.

With almost 800 MAX-10's have been ordered, the only deal id make now if i was Boeing would be to offer them some early delivery slots. If Ryan Air made a deal today, the possibly wouldn't see deliveries of this model for say 5 to 10yrs. It's too bad because they were to be a launch customer for the type correct?

Can't believe MO'L fumbled this and tried to undercut them even more - the MAX10 seems perfect for those higher density routes. Boeing surely knows that there's absolutely no other option for Ryanair now if they want to increase capacity, what with their commitment to the MAX8. Hopefully they can both come to a decent deal.

Makes me wonder why Ryanair didn't (?) have an interest in the 739? Why wait for the MAX10 to choose a higher capacity variant within the family?

eraugrad02 wrote:

With almost 800 MAX-10's have been ordered, the only deal id make now if i was Boeing would be to offer them some early delivery slots. If Ryan Air made a deal today, the possibly wouldn't see deliveries of this model for say 5 to 10yrs. It's too bad because they were to be a launch customer for the type correct?

I believe they are booked through 2026 as far as slots go. FR fortunately already has slots which I'm sure could be converted while ordering more aircraft.

WayexTDI wrote:

cv5880 wrote:

Despite what Calhous says about pricing as a loyal customer I would hope Boeing would ultimately make Ryanair a deal too good to turn down. Boeing needs to protect their European customer base.

Where else can Ryanair go? Airbus told them to go pound sand (well, not really, but Airbus will not play that game again. Once bitten, twice shy), Sukhoi/Tupolev/Irkut are a no-go right now (besides, the SSJ is too small, Tu-204 too big for Ryanair and the MC-21 is... well, it's the MC-21) and COMAC is barely getting its C919 out of the factory.
So, at the end of the day, Ryanair is stuck with Boeing, for better or for worse.

Airbus would gladly take their business, don’t be fooled.

Ufsatp wrote:

WayexTDI wrote:

cv5880 wrote:

Despite what Calhous says about pricing as a loyal customer I would hope Boeing would ultimately make Ryanair a deal too good to turn down. Boeing needs to protect their European customer base.

Where else can Ryanair go? Airbus told them to go pound sand (well, not really, but Airbus will not play that game again. Once bitten, twice shy), Sukhoi/Tupolev/Irkut are a no-go right now (besides, the SSJ is too small, Tu-204 too big for Ryanair and the MC-21 is... well, it's the MC-21) and COMAC is barely getting its C919 out of the factory.
So, at the end of the day, Ryanair is stuck with Boeing, for better or for worse.

Airbus would gladly take their business, don’t be fooled.

Of course Airbus will take their business; but they won't be used as a bargain chip as MOL did 20-or-so years ago. Airbus will make an offer to Ryanair, take it or leave it; they won't spend countless of hours trying to harness a deal that's all but lost when their product is already sold out for years to come.
Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice...

I can’t imagine that MAX 10s are less expensive now than they were 18 months ago when the last deal got shelved. If a deal gets done, and it effectively has to from Ryanair’s perspective, the best case scenario seems to be similar pricing with a far later delivery date. Seems that MOL may have misplayed his hand this time around. A rare occurrence indeed.

JohanTally wrote:

eraugrad02 wrote:

With almost 800 MAX-10's have been ordered, the only deal id make now if i was Boeing would be to offer them some early delivery slots. If Ryan Air made a deal today, the possibly wouldn't see deliveries of this model for say 5 to 10yrs. It's too bad because they were to be a launch customer for the type correct?

I believe they are booked through 2026 as far as slots go. FR fortunately already has slots which I'm sure could be converted while ordering more aircraft.

Ryanair has already ordered a total of 210 737MAX8-200's of which #96 was delivered yesterday, that leaves 114 to be delivered so they will be delivered around 2025/2026, so the timing for a new order seems about right

Do Buzz and Lauda have slots? If so, wonder if F9 can take those.

A RyanAir MAX10 could be assigned exclusively to the upcoming Everette 737 Line. That would give them delivery slots and satisfy O'Leary's need to always be perceived as a mover and a shaker... The pricing wouldn't need to be fantastic... the exclusivity would be enough.

Of course what do I know.... Boeing may already be promising sooner delivery slots to other purchasers based on inceased delivery output when Everett 37 comes online.

thesupersaiyann wrote:

Can't believe MO'L fumbled this and tried to undercut them even more - the MAX10 seems perfect for those higher density routes. Boeing surely knows that there's absolutely no other option for Ryanair now if they want to increase capacity, what with their commitment to the MAX8. Hopefully they can both come to a decent deal.

Makes me wonder why Ryanair didn't (?) have an interest in the 739? Why wait for the MAX10 to choose a higher capacity variant within the family?

The 739 would have required an extra cabin crew member as capacity would be just over the 200 limit for current 738 crewing. The MAX10 will be around 230 capacity so one extra crew more justified.

Will Ryanair 737-10 come with 4 built-in stairs to help with the boarding process? Would be fun to see.

Most comments seem to take Ryanair's need for a MAX10 as a given...I'm just wondering, how big would the benefit actually be over a -8/200 with 200 seats? Does Ryanair need the -10s marginal extra capacity when they already have the 8/200?

When will the MAX line at Everett come online? Boeing might want to fill early slots there to get a stable high rate and will be offering good prices to keep people away from ordering neos.

airlinepeanuts wrote:

Do Buzz and Lauda have slots? If so, wonder if F9 can take those.

Those are not independent carriers; they are part of Ryanair.

IIRC, O'Leary voiced concerns/made a comment last time around possible issues in that the MAX10 wouldn't be suitable for a number of bases and routes. Given Ryanair likes to move the fleet around a lot, how would they adjust there operations to accommodate the 10? I can't see MOL wanting to add any operational complexities.

Boeing has a minimum sale price that they will not go below. FR doesn't have any leverage. To be frank they waited too long. Their time to shine was during the grounding or shortly thereafter. Not when the Maxes are selling like hotcakes

What FR routes have the most daily frequencies?

INFINITI329 wrote:

Boeing has a minimum sale price that they will not go below. FR doesn't have any leverage. To be frank they waited too long. Their time to shine was during the grounding or shortly thereafter. Not when the Maxes are selling like hotcakes

What FR routes have the most daily frequencies?

Probably DUB-STN X8 daily. Lots of routes that are 3+ daily between Ireland and UK that could use the extra capacity

iRISH251 wrote:

airlinepeanuts wrote:

Do Buzz and Lauda have slots? If so, wonder if F9 can take those.

Those are not independent carriers; they are part of Ryanair.

F9 is also Frontier Airlines.

Ryanair are going to buy it... No question about it. The jet btw spent some time at Stansted in December last year whilst pausing between flight testing around Europe.

MAX-10 Seen here at Stansted https://youtu.be/g45JkLiDTsc

jbs2886 wrote:

iRISH251 wrote:

airlinepeanuts wrote:

Do Buzz and Lauda have slots? If so, wonder if F9 can take those.

Those are not independent carriers; they are part of Ryanair.

F9 is also Frontier Airlines.

I meant FR. Thanks for your comment.

What is the quickest turnaround time for a fully booked high density MAX 10? This (and the price) will matter most for airlines like Ryanair.

easyJet and Wizz appear to be doing roaring trade with their 235-239-seat A321NEOs with acceptable boarding/deboarding times - so no wonder FR is interested in the 230-seat MAX 10.

The biggest hurdle is getting the MAX 10 certified...

https://www.aviacionline.com/2022/04/ol ... 37-max-10/

He can live or live without the Max10.
Other Airlines in the British Isles would hope that they don't get the plane because Ryanair fill every plane they have.
If they fill the extra 30 to 40 more seats on a 737Max10 it will be at the expense of other airlines between Ireland and the UK and between British Isles and the Iberian peninsula/Canaries. They will take away price sensitive recreational travellers from Aer Lingus, Vueling and Easyjet.
Those Customers are fickle and a will go for a €499 package deal to somewhere sunny using Ryanair than a €599 deal to another sunny place using one of their competitors.

For trips within the British Isles the flight is a bus trip. For a trip down to Iberia/Canaries the Customers aren't often discerning so long as they can go somewhere sunny where they can walk around in t-shirt taking whatever city offers are there from the budget airlines.

The biggest win other airlines could hope for is that talks between Ryanair and Boeing break down and they continue flying with 737 800 planes for a few more years.

[quote="CRJ900"]easyJet and Wizz appear to be doing roaring trade with their 235-239-seat A321NEOs with acceptable boarding/deboarding times - so no wonder FR is interested in the 230-seat MAX 10.

But they generally use Jetbridges attached to their 321's whereas FR mostly use steps for boarding & deplaning to save a few pennies.

TC957 wrote:

CRJ900 wrote:

easyJet and Wizz appear to be doing roaring trade with their 235-239-seat A321NEOs with acceptable boarding/deboarding times - so no wonder FR is interested in the 230-seat MAX 10.

But they generally use Jetbridges attached to their 321's whereas FR mostly use steps for boarding & deplaning to save a few pennies.

That is about as factually incorrect as statements come.
While EZY does use a limited number of jet ridges with their 21N, mostly at Gatwick and CDG, a significant majority of stations don’t even have jetbridges, the likes of Bristol and Luton being devoid of such and invention.
Furthermore, apart from Gatwick, I don’t think I have ever seen a Wizz Air aircraft hooked up to a jetbridge. Especially not at their Eastern European bases.
Anyone who has flown W6 out of Budapest will know that the cattle-herding area W6 operates out of is just about the opposite of a jetbridge.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2023/0 ... r-outlook/

O'Leary says Boeing approached them. Don't know to believe or not.

100 order plus 100 option as described in article is what I expected regarding order size...i.e. enough to keep them ticking over.

PhilipBass wrote:

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2023/0329/1366976-ryanair-boss-on-summer-outlook/

O'Leary says Boeing approached them. Don't know to believe or not.

100 order plus 100 option as described in article is what I expected regarding order size...i.e. enough to keep them ticking over.

they might have approached him... and it might have been something like...
"Mike, we've got Paris coming up and we are flying in a MAX-10 and are closing a deal with a carrier that is good for 200 frames (100 firm, 100 options).... Do you want to resume talks on the MAX-10 or get behind these guys?"

I mean who knows? Obviously, I'm givng too much thought to something that may or may not have been said. But to suggest Boeing came groveling and begging to O'Leary is probably a bit of stretch... Of course his narcisist side would want everyone to believe that is exactly 'how it went down'.

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:

PhilipBass wrote:

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2023/0329/1366976-ryanair-boss-on-summer-outlook/

O'Leary says Boeing approached them. Don't know to believe or not.

100 order plus 100 option as described in article is what I expected regarding order size...i.e. enough to keep them ticking over.

they might have approached him... and it might have been something like...
"Mike, we've got Paris coming up and we are flying in a MAX-10 and are closing a deal with a carrier that is good for 200 frames (100 firm, 100 options).... Do you want to resume talks on the MAX-10 or get behind these guys?"

I mean who knows? Obviously, I'm givng too much thought to something that may or may not have been said. But to suggest Boeing came groveling and begging to O'Leary is probably a bit of stretch... Of course his narcisist side would want everyone to believe that is exactly 'how it went down'.

To be fair, he doesn’t say that. Just that Ryanair was asked if they wanted to start negotiations again. That’s pretty typical for anybody - Boeing, Airbus, and just about every airline. They talk ALL the time. Whether that’s formally at a table, or informally between a couple sales people and/or executives over dinner or cocktails. The latter is often how these things start before it ever gets to an RFP.

That said, I do agree the FR’s window for ‘best price’ was about 18-months ago. Sure, they’ll get a good deal for a large order. Just as any valued customer buying in bulk would get from Boeing or Airbus. But if they didn’t like the price 2 years ago and think Boeing will go lower today, they’ll find they are unfortunately. . . mistaken.

A MAX 10 might be borderline too big for FR given tight turnaround requirements. This is why they might not be willing to pay up for size they do not need as they have their custom 8200 configuration already. On the other hand if competitors use bigger single aisles Ryanair might want to match them by size.

I think FR has to buy the -10 and it may well be that his position has weakened, for reasons stated above: the line is filling up (quickly) and Boeing knows that FR (a) isn't going to go Airbus now and (b) needs a 230-240 seater to compete with Wizz's and Easyjet's A321s (and others too, such as Pegasus and Jet 2, which will be a more effective competitor when it gets its Neos)

In a sense it's Mark 1 "pile 'em high and sell 'em cheap".

This deal will happen.

Boeing will have the new 737 assembly line at Everett very likely with more capacity, at lower costs with more automation and such. This is why Boeing needs orders to fill slots as well. I see it happening too, but it is not like Ryanair would be desperately in need to finally last minute order now at any price imagined. They won't. Ryanair is a master in waiting for the right moment.

Noshow wrote:

Boeing will have the new 737 assembly line at Everett very likely with more capacity, at lower costs with more automation and such. This is why Boeing needs orders to fill slots as well. I see it happening too, but it is not like Ryanair would be desperately in need to finally last minute order now at any price imagined. They won't. Ryanair is a master in waiting for the right moment.

I think this overstates Boeing's need - Boeing is opening another line for demand, they aren't desperate. Ryanair also *needs* planes to be maintain its competitiveness against the large fleets coming in for Wizz, Jet2, and a much lesser extent, easyJet. But, Ryanair is not desperate either. This won't be Ryanair getting the best deal ever at the right moment; unless some macro change happens, Ryanair missed that opportunity, though there is probably still a good deal to be had.

kaitak wrote:

I think FR has to buy the -10 and it may well be that his position has weakened, for reasons stated above: the line is filling up (quickly) and Boeing knows that FR (a) isn't going to go Airbus now and (b) needs a 230-240 seater to compete with Wizz's and Easyjet's A321s (and others too, such as Pegasus and Jet 2, which will be a more effective competitor when it gets its Neos)

In a sense it's Mark 1 "pile 'em high and sell 'em cheap".

This deal will happen.

Remember that the 737-10 is shorter and narrower than the A321. The exit limit is 230 passengers. Even in Ryanair configuration, it is unlikely that they will configure the 737-10 with more than 226 seats. That is 13 passengers less than Wizzair A321neo. At 226 seats the 737-10 has less space per passenger than a 239 seat A321neo, and less galley space.

Ryanair have 197 seats on their 737-8-200, while the exit limit is 210 seats.

The A321neo is certified for 244 seats.

reidar76 wrote:

kaitak wrote:

I think FR has to buy the -10 and it may well be that his position has weakened, for reasons stated above: the line is filling up (quickly) and Boeing knows that FR (a) isn't going to go Airbus now and (b) needs a 230-240 seater to compete with Wizz's and Easyjet's A321s (and others too, such as Pegasus and Jet 2, which will be a more effective competitor when it gets its Neos)

In a sense it's Mark 1 "pile 'em high and sell 'em cheap".

This deal will happen.

Remember that the 737-10 is shorter and narrower than the A321. The exit limit is 230 passengers. Even in Ryanair configuration, it is unlikely that they will configure the 737-10 with more than 226 seats. That is 13 passengers less than Wizzair A321neo. At 226 seats the 737-10 has less space per passenger than a 239 seat A321neo, and less galley space.

Ryanair have 197 seats on their 737-8-200, while the exit limit is 210 seats.

The A321neo is certified for 244 seats.

80 passengers per lavatory doesn't seem like a model I'd want to envy my condolences to agents servicing the inside during turns.

Looks like both sides are close to an agreement for at least 100 aircraft.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 023-05-08/

I'm going to venture to guess the price is worse than what they were offered 18 months ago

Or a better price, as Boeing has with the current delivery delays yet another thing to compensate for again.

BasilFawlty wrote:

Or a better price, as Boeing has with the current delivery delays yet another thing to compensate for again.

I doubt it. Boeing's backlog has increased since then and Boeing has added some big customers like Delta, Allegiant, IAG, and Air India (not in backlog yet). Yes, I expect Boeing will have to compensate Ryanair for this summer's delays, but I don't think its going to be a better overall deal. I would hope Ryanair takes the opportunity to lock in a lot of planes instead of playing chicken - its worked in the past, but I don't think its working now.

Does the MAX 10 have the option of a mid cabin lav? No idea tbh. Like some carriers already have on their A321Neo's.

JohanTally wrote:

I'm going to venture to guess the price is worse than what they were offered 18 months ago

You bet the price is worse, the other choice, the A321NEO price will not be lower. And with present PW engine problems you better get in the CFM line quickly.

Avgeek21 wrote:

Does the MAX 10 have the option of a mid cabin lav? No idea tbh. Like some carriers already have on their A321Neo's.

Yes a mid cabin lav is available.

I don’t see FR paying for it though, especially since they are all one class so don’t have front lav dedicated to a premium section.

I’m way behind in MAX news so I may be wrong. Isn’t the MAX 10 still in certification limbo?