Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
drdisque wrote:ERI is lobbying AA to give them at least 1x ORD to complement their CLT service
raylee67 wrote:For Erie, is there any reason AA is serving it from Charlotte only now? It is way closer to ORD and PHL as AA's hubs go.
raylee67 wrote:For Erie, is there any reason AA is serving it from Charlotte only now? It is way closer to ORD and PHL as AA's hubs go. Wouldn't connecting Erie with ORD or PHL makes more sense for AA's operations?
OzarkD9S wrote:There used to be near-hourly flights either non-stop or direct between SPI and Chicago way back when. Times certainly have changed.
SurfandSnow wrote:No surprises here. Springfield, IL is only about an hour and a half drive from STL. Erie, PA is only about an hour and a half drive from BUF. I suspect many local travelers and frequent visitors to both cities prefer using the larger nearby airports vs. taking a risky small RJ connection via ORD, where the puddle jumpers are typically the first flights to get delayed during bad weather, congestion, etc.
LAX772LR wrote:raylee67 wrote:For Erie, is there any reason AA is serving it from Charlotte only now? It is way closer to ORD and PHL as AA's hubs go.
You more or less just answered your own question.
The shorter the distance, the more competitive that buses, trains, and/or private cars are; and thus the more pressure that's put on airline ticket prices vis-a-vis cost.
LotsaRunway wrote:I visit Erie a few times a year and I can tell you that the bus is not competing with the airport there. Further, a bus ride to either Chicago or Philadelphia is a full day of fun and adventure. There is more O&D to both than to CLT, however the highest demand out of ERI is Florida. CLT makes sense for those connections as would a ULCC a couple of times a week. Allegiant was once very near to starting service,
LotsaRunway wrote:but they convinced the airport to extend their runway first, and then never came.
LotsaRunway wrote:Many years ago, ERI supported multiple daily flights to PHL and ORD and believe it or not, even supported 17 DC9/BAC-111 flights to 7 cities. Now they are down to 2xERJ. AA told the airport that PHL flights were being shifted to CLT to reduce delays and cancellations, plus to declutter PHL. The official line was to offer connections at a bigger hub.
LAX772LR wrote:LotsaRunway wrote:I visit Erie a few times a year and I can tell you that the bus is not competing with the airport there. Further, a bus ride to either Chicago or Philadelphia is a full day of fun and adventure. There is more O&D to both than to CLT, however the highest demand out of ERI is Florida. CLT makes sense for those connections as would a ULCC a couple of times a week. Allegiant was once very near to starting service,
Having never been there, I could only speak generally. Makes sense overall.LotsaRunway wrote:but they convinced the airport to extend their runway first, and then never came.
What was the length before?
LAX772LR wrote:LotsaRunway wrote:Many years ago, ERI supported multiple daily flights to PHL and ORD and believe it or not, even supported 17 DC9/BAC-111 flights to 7 cities. Now they are down to 2xERJ. AA told the airport that PHL flights were being shifted to CLT to reduce delays and cancellations, plus to declutter PHL. The official line was to offer connections at a bigger hub.
Yeah but can't compare the milk-run days to now.
LotsaRunway wrote:LAX772LR wrote:raylee67 wrote:For Erie, is there any reason AA is serving it from Charlotte only now? It is way closer to ORD and PHL as AA's hubs go.
Many years ago, ERI supported multiple daily flights to PHL and ORD and believe it or not, even supported 17 DC9/BAC-111 flights to 7 cities. Now they are down to 2xERJ. AA told the airport that PHL flights were being shifted to CLT to reduce delays and cancellations, plus to declutter PHL. The official line was to offer connections at a bigger hub.
OzarkD9S wrote:There used to be near-hourly flights either non-stop or direct between SPI and Chicago way back when. Times certainly have changed.
YVR744CP wrote:OzarkD9S wrote:There used to be near-hourly flights either non-stop or direct between SPI and Chicago way back when. Times certainly have changed.
Showing my age here. I remember when your namesake airline (OZ) used to fly Twin Otters between Meigs Field and SPI in the early 70s.
admanager wrote:LotsaRunway wrote:LAX772LR wrote:Many years ago, ERI supported multiple daily flights to PHL and ORD and believe it or not, even supported 17 DC9/BAC-111 flights to 7 cities. Now they are down to 2xERJ. AA told the airport that PHL flights were being shifted to CLT to reduce delays and cancellations, plus to declutter PHL. The official line was to offer connections at a bigger hub.
Also restrictive agreements with Canada meant at least 5 jets a day up to YYZ with Mohawk (and later US).
raylee67 wrote:admanager wrote:LotsaRunway wrote:
Also restrictive agreements with Canada meant at least 5 jets a day up to YYZ with Mohawk (and later US).
When you said "restrictive agreements with Canada", I don't suppose you mean the current agreement since it's completely open-skies now.
So do you mean the old agreement back then with Canada forced US Air to serve Erie-Toronto (which would otherwise be unprofitable)? Interesting choice to force airline to serve Erie-Toronto if that was the case. What's the rationale?
LotsaRunway wrote:raylee67 wrote:admanager wrote:
Also restrictive agreements with Canada meant at least 5 jets a day up to YYZ with Mohawk (and later US).
When you said "restrictive agreements with Canada", I don't suppose you mean the current agreement since it's completely open-skies now.
So do you mean the old agreement back then with Canada forced US Air to serve Erie-Toronto (which would otherwise be unprofitable)? Interesting choice to force airline to serve Erie-Toronto if that was the case. What's the rationale?
Back then things were much more regulated. AL had its major hub in PIT with a smaller hub in PHL, but they didn’t have the authority to fly to YYZ nonstop from those hubs. Instead, they had YYZ authority to ERI, BUF, ROC, and later also through BOS and CLE. Generally, the PHL flights stopped in ERI on the way to YYZ, also taking advantage of the O&D to ERI. Later, PHL was dropped from ERI and PIT then ran one or two YYZ flights through ERI. After deregulation, most of the stops in ERI came to an end, but one did continue for several years. It was even bumped up to a 727-200 for a while. It was the only time that the 727-200 was ever scheduled to ERI, short runway and all.
pgh234 wrote:US had many mainline jets per day (DC-9s mostly) to PIT from ERI during the hub era as well. While US couldn't fly nonstop PIT-YYZ and had to go through ERI, DL was regularly running multiple 757s from PIT-YYZ each day because they had the authority at the time.
Different times back then. Similar to how current government policies have caused us to have all of these regional jets give 10x daily service to NYC to preserve slots instead of serve the regional airports they were intended for (like ERI).
pgh234 wrote:US had many mainline jets per day (DC-9s mostly) to PIT from ERI during the hub era as well. While US couldn't fly nonstop PIT-YYZ and had to go through ERI, DL was regularly running multiple 757s from PIT-YYZ each day because they had the authority at the time.
Different times back then. Similar to how current government policies have caused us to have all of these regional jets give 10x daily service to NYC to preserve slots instead of serve the regional airports they were intended for (like ERI).
raylee67 wrote:LotsaRunway wrote:raylee67 wrote:
When you said "restrictive agreements with Canada", I don't suppose you mean the current agreement since it's completely open-skies now.
So do you mean the old agreement back then with Canada forced US Air to serve Erie-Toronto (which would otherwise be unprofitable)? Interesting choice to force airline to serve Erie-Toronto if that was the case. What's the rationale?
Back then things were much more regulated. AL had its major hub in PIT with a smaller hub in PHL, but they didn’t have the authority to fly to YYZ nonstop from those hubs. Instead, they had YYZ authority to ERI, BUF, ROC, and later also through BOS and CLE. Generally, the PHL flights stopped in ERI on the way to YYZ, also taking advantage of the O&D to ERI. Later, PHL was dropped from ERI and PIT then ran one or two YYZ flights through ERI. After deregulation, most of the stops in ERI came to an end, but one did continue for several years. It was even bumped up to a 727-200 for a while. It was the only time that the 727-200 was ever scheduled to ERI, short runway and all.
Interesting. Thanks for the details! Especially for BUF-YYZ. Can't imagine a route like that would ever happen now.
YVR744CP wrote:
When did DL fly PIT-YYZ? I know EA flew it. I don't recall it on Delta.
pgh234 wrote:YVR744CP wrote:
When did DL fly PIT-YYZ? I know EA flew it. I don't recall it on Delta.
[url]departedflights.com/PIT95p7.html[/url]
The April 2nd, 1995 OAG shows 4 daily PIT-YYZ flights on DL. (3 on 757 and 1 on 727).
There were also 7 daily ERI-PIT flights, 4 on mainline aircraft.
FlyingElvii wrote:pgh234 wrote:US had many mainline jets per day (DC-9s mostly) to PIT from ERI during the hub era as well. While US couldn't fly nonstop PIT-YYZ and had to go through ERI, DL was regularly running multiple 757s from PIT-YYZ each day because they had the authority at the time.
Different times back then. Similar to how current government policies have caused us to have all of these regional jets give 10x daily service to NYC to preserve slots instead of serve the regional airports they were intended for (like ERI).
Another example is UA flying SFO-GEG-YYC twice a day, and DEN-GEG-YYC once a day (Western held both authorities), Northwest MSP-Duluth-Winnipeg on Mesaba, Comair CVG-Day-YYZ as DL Connection (They also operated CVG-YYZ at the time, but it was not authorized for code-share). If. I remember, wasn’t there also a JFK-BRL-Montreal?
raylee67 wrote:LotsaRunway wrote:raylee67 wrote:
When you said "restrictive agreements with Canada", I don't suppose you mean the current agreement since it's completely open-skies now.
So do you mean the old agreement back then with Canada forced US Air to serve Erie-Toronto (which would otherwise be unprofitable)? Interesting choice to force airline to serve Erie-Toronto if that was the case. What's the rationale?
Back then things were much more regulated. AL had its major hub in PIT with a smaller hub in PHL, but they didn’t have the authority to fly to YYZ nonstop from those hubs. Instead, they had YYZ authority to ERI, BUF, ROC, and later also through BOS and CLE. Generally, the PHL flights stopped in ERI on the way to YYZ, also taking advantage of the O&D to ERI. Later, PHL was dropped from ERI and PIT then ran one or two YYZ flights through ERI. After deregulation, most of the stops in ERI came to an end, but one did continue for several years. It was even bumped up to a 727-200 for a while. It was the only time that the 727-200 was ever scheduled to ERI, short runway and all.
Interesting. Thanks for the details! Especially for BUF-YYZ. Can't imagine a route like that would ever happen now.
Pi7472000 wrote:Sad to see United dropping so many cities! Hopefully they are doing okay! I fly them all the time, but they are going to fewer places now.
joeljack wrote:My expensive United tickets were with work to these small cities they have dropped. All leaving DSM and used to be day trips. With DSM-ORD being only 2x, 3x or 4x daily now, can't even do day trips anymore. I've found ways to conduct business without traveling because United's schedule and city drops just wasn't working anymore. If they brought back frequency and some of their dropped cities, I would reconsider because I do like to travel were I can.
Another friend used to do day trips DEN-OMA and a few other places. United hasn't brought back their 8am DEN-OMA or their 8pm OMA-DEN yet. He was a United 1K and switched his travel to Southwest that has a schedule that works for day trips DEN-OMA.
Pi7472000 wrote:Sad to see United dropping so many cities! Hopefully they are doing okay! I fly them all the time, but they are going to fewer places now.
LotsaRunway wrote:LAX772LR wrote:What was the length before?
6500' of pavement with a 500' displaced threshold to the east. Usable, but more was needed for fuller loads, plus to meet the updated safety requirements and to not lose RJ capability.
wenders825 wrote:Pi7472000 wrote:Sad to see United dropping so many cities! Hopefully they are doing okay! I fly them all the time, but they are going to fewer places now.
considering UA is taking on tons of mainline and flying them to places that haven't seen mainline before (and with full planes), I think they're doing just fine. let alone all their international growth. ERI and SPI are two cities they should serve, but this is the nature of the smaller markets at the moment unfortunately.
heck, DL doesn't even serve a lot of California big cities like SBA, SBP, BFL, etc where AA/UA are even running mainline in and out. there are gonna be more strengths and weaknesses going forward it seems. VPS and STS are two decent sized markets UA isn't in
raylee67 wrote:Interesting. Thanks for the details! Especially for BUF-YYZ. Can't imagine a route like that would ever happen now.
pgh234 wrote:YVR744CP wrote:
When did DL fly PIT-YYZ? I know EA flew it. I don't recall it on Delta.
[url]departedflights.com/PIT95p7.html[/url]
The April 2nd, 1995 OAG shows 4 daily PIT-YYZ flights on DL. (3 on 757 and 1 on 727).
There were also 7 daily ERI-PIT flights, 4 on mainline aircraft.
FlyingElvii wrote:wenders825 wrote:Pi7472000 wrote:Sad to see United dropping so many cities! Hopefully they are doing okay! I fly them all the time, but they are going to fewer places now.
considering UA is taking on tons of mainline and flying them to places that haven't seen mainline before (and with full planes), I think they're doing just fine. let alone all their international growth. ERI and SPI are two cities they should serve, but this is the nature of the smaller markets at the moment unfortunately.
heck, DL doesn't even serve a lot of California big cities like SBA, SBP, BFL, etc where AA/UA are even running mainline in and out. there are gonna be more strengths and weaknesses going forward it seems. VPS and STS are two decent sized markets UA isn't in
Skywest was running CRJ's to SFO from STS in 2018-2019, but I think that went away just before Covid?
SFFAN wrote:FlyingElvii wrote:Skywest was running CRJ's to SFO from STS in 2018-2019, but I think that went away just before Covid?
UA Skywest had STS-SFO and STS to DEN until March 2020, STS-SFO returned in 2021 until fall 2022. STS-DEN never returned after 2020. Maybe it’s due to proximity to SFO but surprising no UA presence at STS who had over 600k pax in 2022. They serve smaller airports all over.
cv5880 wrote:I have a DL timetable effective Sept 1 1991. Monroe (birthplace of Delta) had one non stop to Atlanta (MD-88) and two to DFW (one MD-88 and one 72S). There were multiple one stops to both hubs as well. Today AA flies three CR7's to DFW and DL schedules two CR2's to Atlanta. Monroe basically lost most of its service in the last 30 years in US air service rush to the bottom. In general small and medium size cities across the country once enjoyed pretty good air service during the regulated period. What was once reliable service on Convairs and DC-9's (with a Flight Attendant and lavatory) has been reduced to RJ's and in some cases EAS single engine Cessnas and Pilatus puddle jumpers. (Don't tank up on Starbucks before boarding!) Not quite the panacea that Dr Alfred Kahn promised.
SFFAN wrote:FlyingElvii wrote:wenders825 wrote:considering UA is taking on tons of mainline and flying them to places that haven't seen mainline before (and with full planes), I think they're doing just fine. let alone all their international growth. ERI and SPI are two cities they should serve, but this is the nature of the smaller markets at the moment unfortunately.
heck, DL doesn't even serve a lot of California big cities like SBA, SBP, BFL, etc where AA/UA are even running mainline in and out. there are gonna be more strengths and weaknesses going forward it seems. VPS and STS are two decent sized markets UA isn't in
Skywest was running CRJ's to SFO from STS in 2018-2019, but I think that went away just before Covid?
UA Skywest had STS-SFO and STS to DEN until March 2020, STS-SFO returned in 2021 until fall 2022. STS-DEN never returned after 2020. Maybe it’s due to proximity to SFO but surprising no UA presence at STS who had over 600k pax in 2022. They serve smaller airports all over.