ANZ to weigh pax before boarding thru 2 July 2023

Western727 · Tue May 30, 2023 4:44 pm

Air New Zealand to weigh passengers before they board the airplane:
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article-air- ... index.html

Fair use:
New Zealand’s Civil Aviation Authority is asking that its national airline weigh passengers departing on international flights from Auckland International Airport through July 2, 2023. The program, which Air New Zealand calls a passenger weight survey, is a way to gather data on the weight load and distribution for planes, the airline said.

Travelers will be asked to stand on a digital scale when they check in for their flight. The information about their weight is then submitted to the survey but will not be viewable on the agent’s screen. They will also place their luggage on another identical scale for separate weighing.

Thoughts?

jbs2886 · Tue May 30, 2023 4:47 pm

Not really worse than security scanning (not just the metal detectors), but I wouldn't like it. Just feels too personal although I understand the need for the data. Good they are trying to protect the passenger data (i.e., agent can't see).

alasizon · Tue May 30, 2023 4:52 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Not really worse than security scanning (not just the metal detectors), but I wouldn't like it. Just feels too personal although I understand the need for the data. Good they are trying to protect the passenger data (i.e., agent can't see).

No different than when the FAA or any other authority does the same thing really.

martlet76 · Tue May 30, 2023 5:12 pm

Some good data is possibly needed. It would be nice if the overall statistics would be shared in the public domain. Historically, we have been using out if date assumed weights in the industry. Real data is an incremental step to improving safety

NZ could be an interesting case study with a mix of ethnic types across their network (white Caucasians, Eastern Asians and Pacific Islanders have very different builds)

Francoflier · Tue May 30, 2023 5:20 pm

Regulatory agencies do this from time to time to adjust te notional passenger and cabin luggage weight for the airlines operating under their jurisdiction.
The data is completely anonymized and not visible to anyone at the airport.

The delicate bit is to explain this to the passengers lest a few of them start going feral on the airport staff...

flyingclrs727 · Tue May 30, 2023 5:43 pm

Perhaps they want to get current data about passenger weights to better estimate the weight of passengers for future flight planning?

BoeingG · Tue May 30, 2023 5:58 pm

alasizon wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Not really worse than security scanning (not just the metal detectors), but I wouldn't like it. Just feels too personal although I understand the need for the data. Good they are trying to protect the passenger data (i.e., agent can't see).

No different than when the FAA or any other authority does the same thing really.

Does the FAA collect passenger weight data by deploying scales to airports? I've never heard of it doing so.

manny · Tue May 30, 2023 6:04 pm

This is very intrusive. I am not sure if this would fly over here in the US.

Jefford717 · Tue May 30, 2023 6:16 pm

I know why they are doing it, it’s for future flight planning. I also think more airline should do the same for up to date data. However, this practice might be controversial in some other countries like the US.

Alternatively, what about weighing the entire aircraft with everything needed for the flight (catering, fuel, cargo and crew) before and after the passengers board?

ArcticFlyer · Tue May 30, 2023 6:31 pm

Jefford717 wrote:
Alternatively, what about weighing the entire aircraft with everything needed for the flight (catering, fuel, cargo and crew) before and after the passengers board?

Airlines need to be able to accurately plan their loads before boarding passengers/loading cargo. Imagine the delays that would result if after everyone got on board they made an announcement like "Sorry, folks. We're a couple of hundred pounds too heavy so we need someone to deplane."

Jefford717 · Tue May 30, 2023 6:57 pm

ArcticFlyer wrote:
Jefford717 wrote:
Alternatively, what about weighing the entire aircraft with everything needed for the flight (catering, fuel, cargo and crew) before and after the passengers board?

Airlines need to be able to accurately plan their loads before boarding passengers/loading cargo. Imagine the delays that would result if after everyone got on board they made an announcement like "Sorry, folks. We're a couple of hundred pounds too heavy so we need someone to deplane."

It’s for future more accurate and better flight planning without the controversy of actually weighing each passenger. Airlines all over the world has been accurately planning their flight without actually weighing each passenger.

When did you hear someone being deplaned due to the plane being too heavy in the past? If it ever come to that point, revenue cargo would be the first thing to be deplane before any passenger.

dmstorm22 · Tue May 30, 2023 7:06 pm

manny wrote:
This is very intrusive. I am not sure if this would fly over here in the US.

It's optional and anonymous. US people would complain no doubt, but doesn't seem totally infeasible.

CrewBunk · Tue May 30, 2023 7:07 pm

Jefford717 wrote:
I know why they are doing it, it’s for future flight planning. I also think more airline should do the same for up to date data. However, this practice might be controversial in some other countries like the US.

Alternatively, what about weighing the entire aircraft with everything needed for the flight (catering, fuel, cargo and crew) before and after the passengers board?

In Canada we see these weight audits from time to time. A square scale is attached to a laptop computer in the bridge and passengers step on it during boarding, one by one.

No one sees the weight, just the operator sees that it’s been registered.

It’s just Transport Canada ensuring the average weights used are accurate.

Galwayman · Tue May 30, 2023 7:28 pm

You’d think they’d be busy sorting out their dreadful long haul business class without wasting time on this useless distraction nonsense

MIflyer12 · Tue May 30, 2023 7:39 pm

Galwayman wrote:
You’d think they’d be busy sorting out their dreadful long haul business class without wasting time on this useless distraction nonsense

It's not an NZ initiative. It's the country's CAA.

Western727 wrote:
Fair use:
[i]New Zealand’s Civil Aviation Authority is asking that its national airline weigh passengers departing on international flights from Auckland International Airport through July 2, 2023.

ArcticFlyer · Tue May 30, 2023 8:00 pm

Jefford717 wrote:
ArcticFlyer wrote:
Jefford717 wrote:
Alternatively, what about weighing the entire aircraft with everything needed for the flight (catering, fuel, cargo and crew) before and after the passengers board?

Airlines need to be able to accurately plan their loads before boarding passengers/loading cargo. Imagine the delays that would result if after everyone got on board they made an announcement like "Sorry, folks. We're a couple of hundred pounds too heavy so we need someone to deplane."

It’s for future more accurate and better flight planning without the controversy of actually weighing each passenger. Airlines all over the world has been accurately planning their flight without actually weighing each passenger.

When did you hear someone being deplaned due to the plane being too heavy in the past? If it ever come to that point, revenue cargo would be the first thing to be deplane before any passenger.

You seem to have missed (and made) my rhetorical point, which was that the survey is necessary in order to ensure that airlines have accurate weight information, so they are better able to plan their loads and not inadvertently overloading their airplanes. And, yes, various types of cargo are a lower priority than passengers but my point was that delays would still result from such a post-load weighing system. Imagine the aircraft taxiing onto the scale, the crew learns it is 200 lbs too heavy, ops spends 30 minutes deciding which 200 lbs of cargo to bump and another 20 coming up with new paperwork to that effect. The flight is now an hour late, passengers miss their connections, chaos ensues.

LAXintl · Tue May 30, 2023 8:38 pm

As mentioned not too unusual.

In the US most airlines went through this recently and as result in 2021 FAA raised industry standard weights to 190 pounds in the summer and 195 pounds in the winter, up from 170 pounds and 175 pounds.

Per FAA circular, such surveys should be completed every 36 months by operators. Some airlines have their own higher weights to account for specific route or customer variances.

Not too shocking with the climbing obesity rate we see in society.

LimaFoxTango · Tue May 30, 2023 9:06 pm

ArcticFlyer wrote:
Airlines need to be able to accurately plan their loads before boarding passengers/loading cargo. Imagine the delays that would result if after everyone got on board they made an announcement like "Sorry, folks. We're a couple of hundred pounds too heavy so we need someone to deplane."

This kinda thing happens from time to time. Reasons could be anything from too much fuel onboard, to aircraft performance issues. It happens.

Jefford717 wrote:
Alternatively, what about weighing the entire aircraft with everything needed for the flight (catering, fuel, cargo and crew) before and after the passengers board?

This is already done and account for in the aircraft prepared for service (APS) weight. Most airlines used average passenger weights and thus from time to time, these average weights are revised. These weights either come from the regulatory authorities or the airline has to come up with their own weights and revise them ever so often as the regs says. That is simply what is being done here. This is much ado about nothing.

myki · Tue May 30, 2023 9:32 pm

manny wrote:
This is very intrusive. I am not sure if this would fly over here in the US.

As it is voluntary, and both the passenger and the agent dont see the weight, it isn't intrusive. If someone isn't keen, then it doesn't happen. Easy!

Also, other airlines have been doing this for years ... Samoan Airlines out of APW for about 10 years I think.

ZaphodHarkonnen · Tue May 30, 2023 10:34 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Regulatory agencies do this from time to time to adjust te notional passenger and cabin luggage weight for the airlines operating under their jurisdiction.
The data is completely anonymized and not visible to anyone at the airport.

The delicate bit is to explain this to the passengers lest a few of them start going feral on the airport staff...

This ^^^

It isn't Air NZ doing it by random choice. The weight distribution of passengers has changed and will continue to change. Rebaselining these measures is prudent and safe. And it's something I'd expect from any competent regulator from time to time.

The main issue will be making it clear to passengers the how and why. And having clear processes on how to deal with people that raise a needless stink about it.

CrewBunk · Wed May 31, 2023 12:12 am

This has been going on as long as I’ve been flying. Using “standard weights” is very much a science where these weights vary by fare paid/PNR, route and season. As I said above, it’s very discreet and no one present knows the weights.

But I swear ….

People envision a big display screen with huge numbers and farm animal sound effects over the PA.

airlineworker · Wed May 31, 2023 1:18 am

USA 2022 obesity rate was at 41.9 percent. Weight is weight and it all matters when doing the numbers. I was waiting for a seat as a standby and the gate agent said I could not make the flight, staying at the gate area for a while, the agent called me back up and said I could board the flight. The captain said that a high number of seats were occupied with small children. Weight does matter.

flipdewaf · Wed May 31, 2023 8:02 am

myki wrote:
manny wrote:
This is very intrusive. I am not sure if this would fly over here in the US.

As it is voluntary, and both the passenger and the agent dont see the weight, it isn't intrusive. If someone isn't keen, then it doesn't happen. Easy!

Also, other airlines have been doing this for years ... Samoan Airlines out of APW for about 10 years I think.

Surely having it voluntary would be prone to providing a skewed data set? Those who are overweight as well as conscious and sensitive about it would be less inclined to allow weighing. It’s like asking people to volunteer to take a survey about how much they enjoy doing surveys…

Fred

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

zkncj · Wed May 31, 2023 8:54 am

NZ is required todo it every 5 years by the NZCAA, this is for them to renew there average passenger weight calculation.

It avoids the need to weigh every passenger at check-in normally.

max999 · Wed May 31, 2023 9:29 am

I would support this if I get a discount as a slim person. I require less fuel than a heavier passenger.

If there is no discount, then I am against this because it's just a slippery slope to prepare charging passengers by weight in the future.

HowardDGA · Wed May 31, 2023 9:33 am

How about weighing the jetway?

aemoreira1981 · Wed May 31, 2023 9:35 am

Jefford717 wrote:
ArcticFlyer wrote:
Jefford717 wrote:
Alternatively, what about weighing the entire aircraft with everything needed for the flight (catering, fuel, cargo and crew) before and after the passengers board?

Airlines need to be able to accurately plan their loads before boarding passengers/loading cargo. Imagine the delays that would result if after everyone got on board they made an announcement like "Sorry, folks. We're a couple of hundred pounds too heavy so we need someone to deplane."

It’s for future more accurate and better flight planning without the controversy of actually weighing each passenger. Airlines all over the world has been accurately planning their flight without actually weighing each passenger.

When did you hear someone being deplaned due to the plane being too heavy in the past? If it ever come to that point, revenue cargo would be the first thing to be deplane before any passenger.

The plane that crashed as West Caribbean Flight 708 left some crew behind at PTY.

ltbewr · Wed May 31, 2023 11:34 am

This weighting survey is important to prevent overloaded or unbalanced loading of planes, especially those flights operating in 'high and hot' conditions or smaller aircraft. By NZ having more accurate average passenger weights they can have better management of numbers seats to sell, quantity of fuel to load on, so to limit situations where have to deny or remove at the last minute the numbers of pax boarding.

jbmitt · Wed May 31, 2023 11:50 am

max999 wrote:
I would support this if I get a discount as a slim person. I require less fuel than a heavier passenger.

If there is no discount, then I am against this because it's just a slippery slope to prepare charging passengers by weight in the future.

Do you see the contradiction in your post? You said you want a discount as a slim person but don’t want the airlines to charge by weight. How would your weight be know without a scale?

I think we’ll see baggage get charged by weight instead of flat rates ahead of it moving to passengers.

I’m not convinced the FAA’s summer and winter weights are accurate. I suspect there are plenty of flights (especially regional ones) that are overweight just looking at passengers. I know there are safety margins in aircraft design and performance.

Kiwirob · Wed May 31, 2023 11:56 am

max999 wrote:
I would support this if I get a discount as a slim person. I require less fuel than a heavier passenger.

If there is no discount, then I am against this because it's just a slippery slope to prepare charging passengers by weight in the future.

Some passengers should be charged by weight. This shouldn't be allowed to happen, in the event of an emergency a person of this size would be a liability to all those on the aircraft.

Skip to 4:07

https://youtu.be/hJiAVoxv8EU

Nomadd · Wed May 31, 2023 1:50 pm

I think they should put an economy seat size box next to the carry-on box at the gate to make sure passengers wil fit. It would be useful and entertaining.

wjcandee · Wed May 31, 2023 3:46 pm

manny wrote:
This is very intrusive. I am not sure if this would fly over here in the US.

I have been weighed in years past before flying on a scheduled prop.

After the fatal-to-troops Arrow Air charter DC8 crash, the US military conducted a similar study of serviceperson weights and discovered that they had been routinely underestimating per-soldier troop+baggage weights.

wjcandee · Wed May 31, 2023 3:49 pm

For it to be voluntary would likely skew the results, because normal-weight people are unlikely to be as sensitive about their weight as heavier folks.

Ziyulu · Wed May 31, 2023 4:29 pm

This might be a pilot to charge passengers by weight.

ArcticFlyer · Wed May 31, 2023 4:39 pm

I have a better idea: Have a combined weight limit for passengers and their luggage. When you check in, you and your luggage step onto the scale and if you're under the limit no problem. If you're over you pay a fee regardless of where the "excess baggage" is located.

VirginFlyer · Wed May 31, 2023 7:59 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
This might be a pilot to charge passengers by weight.

No, it isn’t. It is a regulatory requirement to ensure the average weight used for a passenger in the flight planning process is accurate. It isn’t something new, it is done on a regular basis, the last one being 5 years ago (and generating similar attention and similar “the sky is falling” responses at the time). If they didn’t do this weight survey regularly, they quite literally would have to weigh every passenger at check in.

V/F

45272455674 · Wed May 31, 2023 8:33 pm

manny wrote:
This is very intrusive. I am not sure if this would fly over here in the US.

Is it really that intrusive? You can just look at someone and know if they are light or heavy, just not the precise number.

I could even just tell them my weight and height. I check weight a lot because I’m recovering after a very serious injury and it’s part of the road back to semi normal fitness and activities.

I have been weighed before flying in a helicopter.

Daniele96 · Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:41 am

A little OT, but it would be great to see that implemented to adjust ticket prices to actual weight.

Really dont's why I have to pay more of another passenger if I'm 70kg + 30kg of luggage and he is 110kg + 10kg luggage

PITingres · Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:12 pm

I really have to wonder about the reading comprehension skills of some of the posters here.

What parts of:

"New Zealand’s Civil Aviation Authority is asking ..."
"The program ... is a way to gather data on the weight load and distribution for planes"

were not clear? although I will admit that CNN (or the original press release perhaps) could have done better at making it clear that the airline is not seeing individual weights, and only statistical data is being collected.

This is not about the airline getting individual weight data, nor is it about being able to charge by weight. This is a regulatory agency program to update the passenger weight standard guidelines. Regulators don't just invent default weight figures by going to the local shopping center and guessing at what people weigh.

This item came up on slashdot and the posters there are just as bad. Rather depressing.

sassiciai · Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:57 pm

PITingres wrote:
I really have to wonder about the reading comprehension skills of some of the posters here.

What parts of:

"New Zealand’s Civil Aviation Authority is asking ..."
"The program ... is a way to gather data on the weight load and distribution for planes"

were not clear? although I will admit that CNN (or the original press release perhaps) could have done better at making it clear that the airline is not seeing individual weights, and only statistical data is being collected.

This is not about the airline getting individual weight data, nor is it about being able to charge by weight. This is a regulatory agency program to update the passenger weight standard guidelines. Regulators don't just invent default weight figures by going to the local shopping center and guessing at what people weigh.

This item came up on slashdot and the posters there are just as bad. Rather depressing.

I wonder how you get onto your high horse in the morning! LOL!

Revelation · Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:37 pm

LAXintl wrote:
As mentioned not too unusual.

In the US most airlines went through this recently and as result in 2021 FAA raised industry standard weights to 190 pounds in the summer and 195 pounds in the winter, up from 170 pounds and 175 pounds.

Per FAA circular, such surveys should be completed every 36 months by operators. Some airlines have their own higher weights to account for specific route or customer variances.

Not too shocking with the climbing obesity rate we see in society.

Pretty interesting given that this average includes a lot of children way below 190, therefore there are a lot of people much higher than 190. Me too, I was 190 in my late teens with no weight on me at all since I'm 6'3"/195 cm, now it's ahem, higher.

In an ideal world everyone would be weighed/measured on every flight and those who can't fit in one seat would be made to buy a wider seat, but the airlines too would hate this. It would show that the seats they provide really aren't adequate in many cases for today's human beings, and they'd be made to provide a range of seat widths for a range of prices. This would mess up their huge jackups for premium seats which in many cases aren't even wider, just more leg room. I think the status quo sucks, but there's no acceptable/feasible way to change it that I can think of.

In one of the videos I watched, gate agents ignore overly wide pax because they don't want to get sued for discrimination or embarrassing them. There's no way you're going to get a low paid gate agent to enforce what is probably an unenforceable policy anyway.

ClassicLover · Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:21 pm

I mean, this explains it pretty well as to why Air New Zealand are doing it, and why it's not an intrusive thing.

https://travelupdate.com/real-reason-airlines-weigh-you/

I imagine the passengers plus bag calculation would differ depending on the passenger mix. For example, I know people from some countries carry a lot of luggage, others have tall populations, short populations and so on.

bennett123 · Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:11 pm

I am inclined to agree with CPD.

The agent can see the passenger. If they are interested they can guestimate your weight.

zkncj · Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:49 pm

I still don’t know how this made it to International headlines, around the world?

NZ is a small 100-ish aircraft, of that a third are turbo props.

Toenga · Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:26 am

cpd wrote:
manny wrote:
This is very intrusive. I am not sure if this would fly over here in the US.

Is it really that intrusive? You can just look at someone and know if they are light or heavy, just not the precise number.

I could even just tell them my weight and height. I check weight a lot because I’m recovering after a very serious injury and it’s part of the road back to semi normal fitness and activities.

I have been weighed before flying in a helicopter.

The bags and freight are weighed.
The fuel is metered, and therefore its weight is known.
You could then weigh everybody, add it all up to get the total precise takeoff weight.
Accurate, but problematic.

It is just so much simpler to ascribe standard weights to the passengers. Male, female, minor and infant.
Here, you could just guess, (if your certifying authority allows) or you could set it on the basis of periodically collected actual passenger data.
Perhaps once every five years, weigh just about every passenger.
Sure some will be missed, some heavier then average, and some lighter then average.

No big deal

Revelation · Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:51 pm

bennett123 wrote:
The agent can see the passenger. If they are interested they can guestimate your weight.

I'm not sure an untrained agent's guesses are any better than just going with an average weight per passenger.

zkncj wrote:
I still don’t know how this made it to International headlines, around the world?

NZ is a small 100-ish aircraft, of that a third are turbo props.

It triggered such a reaction because most of us have ended up squished in a seat that is already too tight by an obese passenger next to us, and wonder if/when the airline industry is ever going to deal with the situation.

Personally I think the answer is 'no', because their really is no good solution to the problem without the airlines making a lot of accommodations they do not want to make. They'd rather just go with the fiction that everyone fits in their ever-shrinking seats just fine.

That issue, combined with a click bait title, is why it got its fifteen minutes of fame. For instance this only applies to international flights out of NZ, so it's not even a thing for the turbo-props.

bennett123 · Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:14 pm

Revelation wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
The agent can see the passenger. If they are interested they can guestimate your weight.

I'm not sure an untrained agent's guesses are any better than just going with an average weight per passenger.

My comment referred to the fact that it was suggested that the equipment recorded your weight but there were no privacy concerns because the weight could not be seen by the operator.

zkncj wrote:
I still don’t know how this made it to International headlines, around the world?

NZ is a small 100-ish aircraft, of that a third are turbo props.

It triggered such a reaction because most of us have ended up squished in a seat that is already too tight by an obese passenger next to us, and wonder if/when the airline industry is ever going to deal with the situation.

Personally I think the answer is 'no', because their really is no good solution to the problem without the airlines making a lot of accommodations they do not want to make. They'd rather just go with the fiction that everyone fits in their ever-shrinking seats just fine.

That issue, combined with a click bait title, is why it got its fifteen minutes of fame. For instance this only applies to international flights out of NZ, so it's not even a thing for the turbo-props.

NZ516 · Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:18 pm

zkncj wrote:
I still don’t know how this made it to International headlines, around the world?

NZ is a small 100-ish aircraft, of that a third are turbo props.

Actually it's closer to half turboprops with 52 in total out of the fleet of 106

zkncj · Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:08 pm

Revelation wrote:
It triggered such a reaction because most of us have ended up squished in a seat that is already too tight by an obese passenger next to us, and wonder if/when the airline industry is ever going to deal with the situation.

Personally I think the answer is 'no', because their really is no good solution to the problem without the airlines making a lot of accommodations they do not want to make. They'd rather just go with the fiction that everyone fits in their ever-shrinking seats just fine.
.

What the media didn’t pickup, is that on NZ’s a321/320NEO’s. In that the middle seat, is 1” wider than the window/isle seats. To help accommodate passengers being larger, than 20 years ago.

Revelation · Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:30 pm

zkncj wrote:
What the media didn’t pickup, is that on NZ’s a321/320NEO’s. In that the middle seat, is 1” wider than the window/isle seats. To help accommodate passengers being larger, than 20 years ago.

Interesting! I didn't know it either.

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