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clickhappy
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U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Fri Nov 01, 2002 1:03 pm

U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

http://www.komotv.com/stories/21154.htm

WASHINGTON, D.C. - New reports of impending Boeing layoffs have Senator Patty Murray talking about federal action to combat Airbus subsidies.

The senator talked Thursday morning with U.S. Commerce Secretary Don Evans and told KOMO 4 News she believes the patience of the Bush administration is wearing thin and there may be action soon.

The Machinist Union told KOMO 4 News it's petitioning the Commerce department to impose countervailing tariffs to offset the European subsidies -- a move which Senator Murray supports....

 
diz
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Fri Nov 01, 2002 1:17 pm

Import tarrifs are a part of life - but to target them to a specific company is stretching things. To impose a tax penalises Airbus, but it does nothing for the sale of the Boeings overseas - what they should really be doing if they are this keen is what is reportedly happening at Airbus, govt. subsidies?

Sounds like a lot of hot wind that wont go very far - I would guess all the orders that are going to be placed for a while have been placed, and... the funny this is that this is going to pull more money out of these poor airlines????



Oh well  Smile

-D
 
Trvlr
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Fri Nov 01, 2002 2:54 pm

Wheee....so now cash-rich USAirways and United will be tempted to buy Boeing. Sounds like a real plan.

This is a recipe for a trade war.

Aaron G.
 
b757300
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Fri Nov 01, 2002 3:05 pm

The U.S. needs to do something already. The EU and Airbus have found a way around the 1992 agreement that was supposed solve the problem of subsidies to Airbus. It is obvious now to everyone except the most die hard Airbus lovers that Airbus is receiving enough help from the EU that they can see their aircraft well below cost while Boeing is forced to price their aircraft in order to make a profit.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
cfalk
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Fri Nov 01, 2002 3:37 pm

Well, something needs to be done, but I don't think tariffs will do much good, as it only impacts Airbus sales to the U.S., and doesn't stop them from dumping elsewhere.

Charles
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paulc
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Fri Nov 01, 2002 4:26 pm

Well - if the US imposes that sort of tarriff on Airbus then I am sure the EU would react in some way. It would not solve anything -and it is not as if Boeing have never had government help in some way in the past.

Companies will almost always go for the best deal - why pay £X million more for a similar product.


English First, British Second, european Never!
 
airDD
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Fri Nov 01, 2002 4:44 pm


Airbus may be getting subsidies but so does Boeing...

Military R&D has been applied for "free" in the commercial aviation industry for years.

The Sonic Cruiser design courtesy of NASA.

And what about the 767 Air Force Tanker lease ?

US government forcing Taiwan gov to drop Airbus order in favor of Boeing.

Boeing taking over MD and shutting down all production lines ...

Hardly good examples of free trade

If there was no Airbus Boeing would be a total monopoly

airDD




 
ptica2000
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Fri Nov 01, 2002 5:06 pm

So what. Let them put taxes on Airbus planes and they will get them back soon. I wander who will be in worse position in that case, Airbus or Boeing!?

Nejc
 
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keesje
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Fri Nov 01, 2002 5:20 pm

protectionism always finds a plausible reason ...
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
dragogoalie
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Fri Nov 01, 2002 5:45 pm

I think this is a good idea. If the US gov started to subsidise boeing, other US companies would want the same treatment. But in order to make things fair, this is the way to go. I like both boeing and airbus, both make great airplanes, but I just find this a little unfair.

--dragogoalie-#88--
Formerly known as Jap. Srsly. AUSTRALIA: 2 days!
 
cfalk
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Fri Nov 01, 2002 6:03 pm

Military R&D has been applied for "free" in the commercial aviation industry for years.

So what? If it weren't for military technology, civilian transportation would probably be stuck with DC-3 technology. BAe and EADS also have very sizable military and government research programs, similar in proportion to Boeing's, and they also benefit from this technology. Much of Airbus's own aircraft owe certain design features and components to U.S. military and even NASA research.

The Sonic Cruiser design courtesy of NASA.

That's the first I heard of it. NASA's research is public property, and anyone can take it as a starting point for their own designs.

And what about the 767 Air Force Tanker lease ?

If the tankers are sold to a proper leasing company, like GECAS, and leased to the government, that would be fine. Even if they were directly leased, it would be OK as long as the real terms and conditions are the same as if they leased elsewhere. The idea of leasing the tankers was an idea to benefit the government, not Boeing. It was an idea to increase the US Air Force's capacity without having to ask for a large jump in the defense budget - lease payments over time rather than cash up-front - the same reason why so many people lease their cars rather than going down to the dealership with a briefcase full of bank notes. The problem of leasing military equipment presents another problem - what happens if the plane is shot down or otherwise damaged or written off? Does the leasor's private insurance get involved? I feel that military equipment should be entirely the property of the government, otherwise you will get all sort of weird effects in the private sector. That is why I'm against the leasing idea, not because of Airbus' "subsidy" propaganda.

US government forcing Taiwan gov to drop Airbus order in favor of Boeing.

US government officials are paid to look after US interests. It's also common decency - Taiwan has benefited tremendously from US aid, so it would be reasonable that when Taiwan wants to buy big-ticket items, that the US would be a preferred supplier.

In any case don't tell me that Jacques Chirac doesn't do the same thing. Remember that huge spate of Airbus orders that he managed to get from China when he visited there a few years ago?

Boeing taking over MD and shutting down all production lines ...Hardly good examples of free trade

One of the key components to free enterprise and free trade is that you are free to go bankrupt! MD, through a combination of poor management decisions and a string of bad luck (DC-10 accidents), was heading south, and Boeing bought them. Nothing wrong with that. Had the government gone in to save MD with some low-interest loans (like Airbus got) THAT would be interference in free trade and free enterprise.

If there was no Airbus Boeing would be a total monopoly

True, but the reverse is also true. It is clear that the European governments not only want Airbus to be competitive or equal, they want Airbus to totally dominate - otherwise there would be no reason for Airbus to continue to get subsidies and preferential treatment.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
RickB
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Fri Nov 01, 2002 6:11 pm

'That's the first I heard of it. NASA's research is public property, and anyone can take it as a starting point for their own designs'

Yeah - and given Boeing was the prime contractor to NASA for the Supersonic research program - gives them a little bit of a headstart doesn't it.......

Same names, same erroneous accusations. Airbus has not broken the 1992 agreement, support is still limited to 33% of development costs, interest rate is fixed at 0.25% above the government borrowing rate, Boeing is limited to 3% of total revenue by indirect support (whilst currently achieving the levels of over 5%) so basically boys the only one who has broken the 1992 agreement sadly is Boeing !!!

RickB

 
A340-Fan
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Fri Nov 01, 2002 6:21 pm

Last week i saw a documentary about Airbus and Boeing on a french-german TV-station. In an interview the Airbusmanager said, that the subsidies which Airbus get are all repay credits and that some of them are already paied back. So Airbus get support from the gvnmt, but they have to pay it back.

Nils
 
GDB
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Fri Nov 01, 2002 6:25 pm

One of the points of the EU is that if the US starts bullying then there is a similar sized trading block that can retaliate.
Odd how a far-right, 'free trade' US government has already imposed tariffs on steel and farm products, just to help them out in mid-term elections.
Not that the steel tariffs have helped US industry, quite the opposite in fact.
Call it what it is, hypocrisy.
No one is going to take lectures on free trade from the Bush administration again.
If Nixon hadn't bailed them out 30 years ago, all three then US widebody manufacturers would have been in deep trouble in the early '70's recession
Comparing the vast US Military/Industrial complex to European military programmes is pointless, size-wise they don't compare, but has Airbus had subsidies in the past?
Yes-at least they admit it though.
Not that Boeing gave a damn, until Airbus started selling a lot of aircraft in 'their home turf', by then payments were in the form of repayable loans anyway.
And they ARE repaid, the UK government has produced figures showing the contribution Airbus sales have made to their coffers, and unlike the Bush government, they actually believe the free-trade rhetoric!
 
varig md-11
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Fri Nov 01, 2002 6:40 pm

Once again a great lesson of free trade form the Bush administration....

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luzezito
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Fri Nov 01, 2002 7:12 pm

We should remember that the are no tariffs as such yet and that imposing them would also harm many of the US airlines using airbus products if they were also imposed let's say on spare parts.

Airbus are receiving help from governments in the form of credits with preferencial rates that probably many banks would not have given altogether, especially with the A380 programme. But those are loans that have to be repaid and not just hard cash to use and forget about.

Now, to our Boeing die-hards, this is not about a war between good (B) and evil (A). It is about a company like airbus which has become a full competitor for Airbus in the last 10 years and that's a hard pill to swallow for many. So now that harder time have come we start talking about unfair competition or the let's the market decide stuff.

If that was as clear cut, perhaps many more US airlines could have bought airbusses as well as European airlines buy Boeings. But politics play a major role and I personally consider that both player are using the exact same dirty tricks. Just as Cfalk puts it contradicting himself and his heartfelt belief in the market forces:
"US government officials are paid to look after US interests. It's also common decency - Taiwan has benefited tremendously from US aid, so it would be reasonable that when Taiwan wants to buy big-ticket items, that the US would be a preferred supplier."

As you can see, I am afraid that reason has very little to do in the a/c acquisition decision process. Hence this senator talking tariffs


Quoniam Vita Brevis Est, Propera!
 
Joni
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Fri Nov 01, 2002 7:52 pm


Sounds like there's an election approaching.


 
hkgspotter1
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Fri Nov 01, 2002 8:02 pm

Way to go America, If you can't win the battle...get the government to kick them out for you !!
 
gkirk
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Fri Nov 01, 2002 10:04 pm

The US should not be allowed to put pressure on countries to buy Boeing then... Pissed
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solnabo
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Fri Nov 01, 2002 10:20 pm

So US wants monopoly in the sky too!?!
What do one expect when there is a TX Ranger
in the west wing.......Jeeeezzuuuz  Sad

Michael/SE

P.S.
VIVE LA DIFFRENCE *pardon my french*
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danialanwar
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Fri Nov 01, 2002 10:30 pm

So US wants monopoly in the sky too!?!
Close to it ... they want it back! They had it in the 70's, at least in the Western World.
Best Business Class: Royal Brunei. Best Economy: Singapore Airlines. First: please send money first!
 
manni
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Fri Nov 01, 2002 10:53 pm

If the US considers extra taxes for Airbus aircraft, the EU could put a similar tax for Boeing aircraft. Nearly all orders this year are made by non US airlines, a huge part of them by European Airlines (KLM, Easyjet, Lufthansa, Ryanair, Swiss, Iberia,... ). Guess who would be the big losers of this?
 
M27
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Fri Nov 01, 2002 11:15 pm

Airbus lovers yelling protectionism and hypocrisy! This is great, this is wonderful! I even saw the words "free trade" mentioned!! Goes to show you never know what you may see in this world.

I guess you must feel your little puppy is not big enough to be let out of his pen and play with other dogs yet!
 
N79969
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Fri Nov 01, 2002 11:42 pm

Tariffs are stupid...it will not solve the problem. I'm not a fan of the 767 tanker deal because it will ultimately cost the taxpayer more. I hope Congress ponies up the money to buy the aircraft.

Way to go Europe! If you can't create jobs, you steal them from your closest ally.
 
manni
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 1:10 am

N79969,

Huh? You should reread the title of this topic. It is the US who is planning to add extra import taxes to Airbus aircraft, not the EU to Boeing aircraft. Closest ally? I dont think Bush considers anyone as his allies. First there were the steel tarrifs and now this.

Anyway, I can't wait to see what happens next after the US put this plan trough.

Is it already known how big the importtax will be? Will it be implemented on all new aircraft alreaday ordered or only on newly ordered aircraft as from the day the taxes wil be implemented?

It just crossed my mind that Ryanair is taking delivery of +100 Boeing jets, imagine what would happen if they had to pay 15% importtaxes on that... and KLM that ordered a bunch of 777-200 and 747-400 aircraft...
How big would the cancellation fee be?
 
N79969
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 1:18 am

Yes, Manni. And I said those tariffs are stupid.

The EU has effectively purchased aerospace jobs from Long Beach, Renton, and Everett and moved them to Tolouse and Hamburg through its support of Airbus.

As far as you allies comment, I will ignore it. Patty Murray, the proponent of tariffs, is a Democrat. The President is a Republican.

 
adh214
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 1:33 am

Putting tariffs on Airbus planes would be a very bad idea.

1. It would harm US airlines and Boeing.
2. It would not really harm Airbus.

Another point, I do not think that the US government should use their influence in the world to encourage PIA, Taiwan or anyone else to purchase Boeing aircraft. This is a very expensive sales tool for US taxpayers. What does that conversation look like? "We will give you $1 billion dollars of grain if you will buy a $180 million 777." That is just stupid. If Boeing wants the order, they need to earn. If they can't earn it then they should go out of business.

Finally, Boeing has made a lot of blunders in the last few years and is not exactly running a tight ship. They need to get their act together and compete in the world markets. Let's face it. If European taxpayers wish to subsidize airliner production for the entire world that is their business. However, the shareholders of Boeing and the US government should demand that Boeing start competing and quit losing orders to the French.

When the US auto industry was in bad shape in the 80's they worked hard to get better and now we all drive much better cars. It is time Boeing wake up, revitalize their company, and start putting out quality products that can beat Airbus regardless of price.

 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 1:40 am

N79969: you are basically ignoring a few facts: in the past decades order volumes have increased over the years. But instead of one big player there are now two (ignoring MDD which was out of business from the early 90teis on), fighting hard for every order, both using whatevery financial tooling is available. Boeing uses the ImEx bank to a large extend and gets a lot of funding via military contracts, for example via the pending tanker deal which brings in in effct dobble the price they would recieve for the same number of commercial B767. Airbus has other tooling such as the KfW or other "development" banks.

Still, nowadays the production technlogy differs quite a lot from what was used 20 or even 30 years ago. Computers have made life easier and working more profitable for companies. This is increased productivity, shelving in effect thousands of jobs, not only in the US but in Europe, too. European companies have a different approach towards job and job security, in effect allwoing them to keep key workers even in periods of slow demand - and they have the knowledge avialable at that time, opposed to Boeing which uses hire-and-fire every time when demand slows down. We all know the results...

Still, even with Bush applying this tax or tariff: a few month later the same will apply to all Boeings being sold to Europe... Now think what you want...

Regards
Flying-Tiger
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Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A359, A380,AT4,AT7,B712, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B752/3, B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,... 330.860 miles and counting.
 
pmk
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 2:27 am

I want a foreign company to stop dumping a product in my country. Simple as that. An Airbus does not cost less to produce than a Boeing, do the math and figure the production time. Airbuses cost less than Boeings, that means they are subsidised someplace. Airbus is recieving subsides in excess of those of Boeing and therefore are dumping their product in the world market. We cannot control the world market but we can control the American market.

Peter
 
LJ
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 3:00 am

I feel an "easyJet selects Airbus" discussion coming.

BTW Are we going ahead with this thread (and paste 50% of the previous discussion in this thread so we don't waste value space with points already discussed on the previous thread) or are we going further on the other thread?
 
JU101
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 3:18 am

I think that idea of imposing a tariff on imported aircraft produced by Airbus is wrong. Such actions are blatant, and counter productive. If the European Union is providing unlawful subsidies to Airbus, why doesnt the US administration file an official complaint to the the world trade organisation? I am sure that both companies get lots of direct and indirect support from their respective governments.

We are all better off with the free flow of people, goods and services.
 
Guest

RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 3:23 am

Let's apply some logic to this.

The money for those subsidies originates with European taxpayers: individuals, small businesses and corporations.

Their wealth, in turn, is transferred to an enterprise favoured by European governments.

That transfer of wealth permits U.S.-based Airbus operators like United and Northwest to acquire new aircraft at discount prices.

Therefore, they've created a scheme by which a civil servant in Marseille and a store owner in Bavaria are subconsciously doing their bit, however small, to help out two American corporations they may never do business with in their lifetimes.

Very neighbourly of those Europeans. If those dastardly airlines had any manners, they'd put up thank-you signs at all the major European airports.

Thank you! Merci bien! Dank u wel! Gracias!

Senator Murray, however, doesn't care for the Europeans' generosity. She could have told European taxpayers their governments were playing games with them, and asked them to keep the money in their own pockets and use it for something fun instead.

But the esteem senator had another idea! She would call for a tariff -- a kind of hidden tax -- so that American airline companies who wanted to take advantage of the Europeans' generosity would have to hand over most or all of the savings to the federal government.

Which can, like all governments, be trusted to make wise, long-term investments with it.

Poetic justice, perhaps. Maybe that's what the airlines should get for not even thanking the French civil servant or the German shopkeeper for helping them out.

Clear as mud? I thought so.

 Smile
 
N79969
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 3:24 am

Flying-Tiger:

Yes volumes were growing. McDD's demise was not accidental or the product of market forces acting. Believe me, I'm not ignoring any facts. First your comparison of Boeing military contracting to Airbus subsidies does not make any sense. You should compare EADS military contracting to Boeing's military contracting. And then compare BCAG to Airbus. That is the meaningful comparison. I don't think anyone has complained about Airbus applying technology EADS has developed in the course of military contracts. Yet that is exactly what you and others constantly complain about. Airbus receives launch aid, gov't loans, and so on to develop specific aircraft models: 300/310/320/330/340/380. BCAG does not receive launch aid or any similar benefit for the 777LR/ER, Sonic Cruiser, and so on.

Guess who else enjoys EXIM bank finance:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/articleshow?artid=26500360&sType=1

The EXIM gets really involved if GE or PW engines are hanging on the wing.

For those of you who complain US political pressure on Taiwan and Israel, I don't know what to tell you. The US ensures the very existence of those countries. When China started "testing" missles in the Taiwan strait in 1996-- it was not a French or British aircraft carrier that started patrolling the strait. The respective governments of those countries save billions on defense because of the umbrella that the US provides. So when the government-owned carriers of those countries try to purchase Airbus, you shouldn't be surprised that we would react.

The jobs in Tolouse and Hamburg would not exist at all but for the EU taxpayer and employment could not have grown had jobs not been shed in the USA. Airbus took more of the economic pie without actually expanding it. In other words, Airbus did not stimulate the growing demand for transport aircraft. Rather it shot and killed McDD and with the help of the EU, is shoving Boeing out of the picture.

Do you want to talk about unfair business tactics? Until 1997 Airbus could and did bribe government officials of foreign countries for aircraft sales. Until 1997, Airbus could legally deduct bribes as business expenses from their taxes. This was the law in France and Germany! Airbus was caught trying to bribe Saudi officials in 1991, accused of bribing Indian officials in 1986, and got caught in Canada in 1995. I know all of you Airbus supporters want to say, "well so does Boeing!" But no, that is simply not the case. If a Boeing official tries to bribe a foreign government official, he goes to jail even it is legal for the foreign official to accept the bribe. The US Justice Department shows no mercy when prosecuting corporate corruption.

http://www.oecd.org/pdf/M00018000/M00018527.pdf
http://www.oecdobserver.org/news/fullstory.php/aid/245


Finally, I repeat that tariffs are apparently being proposed by a woman in the Democratic party. This is not the President's idea. I hope that he does NOT apply them. They are economically harmful to this country and Europe.
 
donder10
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 3:26 am

Airbus does not cost less to produce than a Boeing, do the math and figure the production time
From I have seen Airbus have less seniority than Boeing for one thing.Plus the strength of the Euro makes Airbi cheaper than Boeings for US airlines to buy.
 
aerosol
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 3:34 am

Tariffs is a way to protect a product which is not competitive enough.
It is known that Airbus is more productive in producing planes (less input for a comparable output). Boeing used to offer more than a hundred different versions of the color white to customers for example. (I do not know the exact number, but it is an often quoted example to show that Boeing had a lot of potential to reduce costs). Since the merger with MDD and the shift towards shareholder value strategy (which costs jobs as well) productivity increased at Boeing. But of course it is a longterm process. A tariff on Airbus is not a way to help this movement.
 
Cyprus-Turkish
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 3:38 am

I can't believe the competition between Airbus and Boeing has come to this. What people in US need to understand is that the corporate structure of Airbus and Boeing are completely different. Boeing is a publicly traded company with shareholders, Airbus is not. Airbus has been under government influence since it was created. It has never been a big issue, but now that they are a successful and the preferred manufacturer, it suddenly becomes a big issue. Airlines order what they need, That is why 777 selling so well over the A340. This also why the more advanced A320 is selling at a great pace than 737. It is the quality of the product that matters. Boeing just needs to produce new-technology planes like the 777 and strengthen its production line with new products. May be a new narrow-body family is what they need with the cockpit of the 777 and the commonality structures that Airbus offers. Boeing needs open their eyes that the only plane that they are producing is the 777, and the rest is history. 737, 747 are all history! Get over it!
 
N79969
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 3:53 am

C-t,

The problem is that Airbus's structure allows it to systematically enage in highly risky projects and pay low interest rates. This systematically the risk for Boeing in all its projects as well but without the benefit of low interest loans. If an Airbus product does not perform like the MD-11 did not perform, the company will not have to face serious consequences. Boeing's projects have to pay off or the shareholder eats it.
 
JU101
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JAT And Adria Airways To Share BEG-LJU

Sat Nov 02, 2002 4:04 am

"If a Boeing official tries to bribe a foreign government official, he goes to jail even it is legal for the foreign official to accept the bribe."
- This may be true, however US foreign policy bases its interests around selling its products abroad. For example, nations joining NATO are obliged to purchase weapons produced by NATO countries, in particular the United States. Nobody could doubt the fact that Boeing and Lockheed do not benefit from this policy.

"The US Justice Department shows no mercy when prosecuting corporate corruption."
- I doubt the validity of this statement.
 
airDD
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 4:10 am



It is hard to compare the military division of Boeing with EADS's division.

Through military orders Boeing is heavily subsidizing its commercial division; just look at the 767 tanker lease.

EADS military is very small compared to boeings'

The US is forcing, through NATO, the European countries to buy US military equipment, difficult to image the US military buying European equipment.

The problem is that Boeing is way less cost effective than Airbus; just look at the manpower of both companies, so Boeing asks the US government to protect them from competition....

 
artsyman
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Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 4:11 am

The sad thing is day by day, the US seems to be becoming isolationist. Every day the news is carrying another story of another country that America has annoyed, offended or threatened. I live in America, I am pro America, but I feel that the way they are currently going, they are starting to put themselves into a corner.

Charging subsidies on Airbus wont help them, all it will do it is turn even more people against them. Think about how you respond to ultimatums ?.

You will find that companies in cases where the economics are similar will specifically buy from Airbus just to annoy America.

The political pressure I dont include on this, this happens for both companies, hence the order the other day announced at the Presidential residence over Tea with Chirac. Many airlines are also given favorable decisions on slots when they choose Airbus.

Jeremy
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 4:15 am

Cyprus-Turkish
You make some good points, until the, "Get over it". If international trade is to prosper, then a level playing field is needed. Otherwise there will be trade wars or all major industrial nations might turn to subsidizing industries deemed important. Should that happen, the government with the greatest resources to subsidize will prevail. Heavy subsidies used to gain advantage will only work if one side does it, if all sides resort to this, then there is no advantage.

But regardless, Boeing needs to get serious about their commercial airplane division again. By this I don't consider moving headquarters to Chicago as getting serious.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 4:19 am

JU101,

"This may be true, however US foreign policy bases its interests around selling its products abroad. For example, nations joining NATO are obliged to purchase weapons produced by NATO countries, in particular the United States. Nobody could doubt the fact that Boeing and Lockheed do not benefit from this policy."

This is an unusually anti-American harangue for a Canadian. A lot of NATO member are opting for the unproven A400M and Eurofighter over the proven C-130/C-17 and F-16/ F/A-18. EADS is doing better business than we are. EADS is planning on submitting bids to the Pentagon.

We are the worlds largest importer of everything from everywhere. We run trade deficits with everybody. Airbus's single largest customer worldwide in number of aircraft: United. Where is BMW's largest market? Toyota's? Hyundai? Volkswagen? Bombardier? The US is a trader and not a mercantilist.

The US Justice Department shows no mercy when prosecuting corporate corruption."
- I doubt the validity of this statement.

Wow...what a compelling, logical response. The USDOJ is broken up in various US Attorney Offices and legal divisions. I can tell you that US Attorneys are among the most ambitious attorneys out there. If they can make a name for themselves putting away an executive at a big corporation (Enron, Worldcom,you fill in the blank), they will not pass up the opportunity.
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 4:33 am

Through military orders Boeing is heavily subsidizing its commercial division; just look at the 767 tanker lease.

I've always looked on the "military sales being a subsidy, argument being ridiculous.

The US government purchasing and recieving goods for the defense of the country is not a subsidy to Boeing. Unless of course you want to consider it some sort of internal subsidy, much like if Airbus uses profits from one product to cover the costs of another.
Yes, Boeing recieves the money and can use it to cover the expense of other projects but it is not a subsidy.
Boeing is providing a good or service to a customer. Providing a good or service to the government and getting renumerated does not constitute a subsidy.


You're only as good as your last departure.
 
N79969
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Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 4:54 am

FDXMech,

Again I agree with you 100%. I have tried explaining this basic concept over and over it does not seem register in the minds of numerous Airbus supporters.

To Airbus supporters:

The US has not complained about Airbus applying technology developed by EADS in the course of fufilling a military contract. Yet that is all that Europe can say about Boeing. Airbus should be doing that.

I notice the conspicuous lack of response about European bribery laws. It's still good and legal if you are Belgian seeking to do business overseas.
 
manni
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Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 5:02 am



To answer your question N79969,


BMW's and Volkswagen largest market is without any doubt the EU and not the US. I'm sure there are countless more examples like this, but who cares...

Also could you back up your statement that the US is the largest importer from everything from everywhere? A pretty naieve statement I would say.
 
GD727
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 5:05 am

This is the best idea I've heard in a long time! Airbus has been selling airplanes for dirt cheap to U.S. carriers only because various European countries have been granting Airbus subsidies. I'm sorry, but that's very unfair to Boeing. The U.S. airlines need to support their own country's government IMO.

-GD727
Mmmm forbidden donut.
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 5:14 am

Manni,

I would say that for many, many European and Japanese companies the US is their single largest market. You can do the research. Like I said Airbus#1 customer in number of aircraft: United Airlines.

Name a country that imports more than the USA....France? Japan? China? Mighty Belgium? I cannot think of one. Actually why don't you do a little research for once before calling people naive...all you ever do is hurl insults without saying anything of substance.
 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 5:38 am

Errr, I quote you once again

...We are the worlds largest importer from everything from everywhere... Didn't you write that? Or did some hacked your account?

That's different than ...name a country that imports more than the USA...
You want to compare the import of the US with that of Belgium? Why not comparing the army of Vatican City with that of France?  Nuts
Talking about saying something without substance...



 
sllevin
Posts: 3314
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 5:39 am

We talk about it being cheaper to produce Airbus that Boeing. But Airbus isn't making that claim.

My concerns have been around three things in the EasyJet deal:

1) No Airbus statement that "we're happy that our lower costs of production allow us to offer significantly lower prices than Boeing."

--and if so, why didn't they get Ryanair? And if they offered Ryanair the same price they offered EasyJet, why don't they make some PR hay out of that?

2) The statement that "everyone told us it was critical to get into the low cost carrier market."

--This statement sounds awfully reminiscent of dot-com doublespeak where operating at a loss was justified by profits in the areas of things like "marketshare" "future business," "name recognition" and so forth

3) EasyJet's statement that the pricing difference between the Boeing and Airbus offers was so significant that it would have been "criminally negligent" to take Boeing's offer.

-- Again, it requires either #1 or #2 to make this happen, and Airbus has avoided the easy route of saying that it was #1, with vastly lower costs.

FWIW, these quotes (and lack of them) were through reading European newspaper articles on the deal (note: not because I'm a diehard as much as I was in Ireland on the last day of my honeymoon, killing time before departure in the EI lounge at DUB).

I don't believe tariffs are the answer. But I do believe that something is out of whack. And let's not compare tanker deals that haven't (and are progressively less likely to ever) been done to what actually *has* transpired to date.

It's the old story -- give IBM $300 billion, and they could be the only player left standing in the commercial aircraft business as well.

Steve
 
airDD
Posts: 367
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RE: U.S. Considers Imposing Tariff Against Airbus

Sat Nov 02, 2002 5:44 am


May I remind everyone that Ryanair ordered 100 737's over a320's because Boeing's offer was substantially lower ?


TO FDXmech:

EADS has a small military division compared to Boeing.
Lots of new technology used for commercial airlines, comes from the military division, since the US military only buys from American companies and places riduculous orders like the one for the 767 tankers, I considered this hidden subsidies....


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