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Flying-Tiger
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A330F?

Tue Nov 19, 2002 1:22 am

Bloomberg reports this:

"Noel Forgeard, chief executive of Airbus, said at a briefing in Toulouse following the summit that engineers at the Moscow venture would work on a digital model of a cargo version of Airbus' widebody A330 plane."

Sounds as if Airbus is again pondering the A330-200F...

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A359, A380,AT4,AT7,B712, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B752/3, B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,... 330.860 miles and counting.
 
N79969
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RE: A330F?

Tue Nov 19, 2002 1:23 am

I sense that the A330F is an eventuality.
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: A330F?

Tue Nov 19, 2002 1:32 am

I assume that the A332F is a pretty sure bet, it would compete head-on with the B767-300F - and we all know who has won the battle between the A330-200 and the B767-300. I would see these airlines as potential customers:

Lufthansa Cargo
Gemini Air Cargo
UPS
FedEx
Air France Cargo
KLM Cargo

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A359, A380,AT4,AT7,B712, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B752/3, B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,... 330.860 miles and counting.
 
N79969
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RE: A330F?

Tue Nov 19, 2002 1:56 am

I think the 332 is comparable to the 764 and not the 763. That is relevant comparison. I think the 763 freighter does not have a counterpart at Airbus to date. The A300-600RF has more capacity but less range. The 763 has done better than the AB6 in terms of pax aircraft.

My guess is that Airbus will kick 330F development into gear when the A300-600 backlog gets close to the end.
 
gerardo
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RE: A330F?

Tue Nov 19, 2002 2:06 am

How would the A332F compete against the MD11F (range, capacity)?

Gerardo
dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
 
User avatar
s.p.a.s.
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RE: A330F?

Tue Nov 19, 2002 3:19 am

Hi Gerardo...

A good comparison is rather difficult due the lack of correct data for the A330-200F (weights) but in a general overview, what we have is this:

A330-200
MTOW: 230t.
DOW: 105t (assumed value, full pax DOW=120t)
MZFW: 170t (assuming pax version MZFW)
Max Payload: (assuming structural MTOW = performance MTOW): 65t.
Max Range: (MTOW): around 10.000km

MD11F (HGW version)
MTOW: 286t.
DOW: around 113 and 115t
MZFW: around 205t.
Max Payload: (same assumption as above): around 90t.
Max Range: (MTOW): around 7.300km

Rgds,

Renato
"ad astra per aspera"
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
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RE: A330F?

Tue Nov 19, 2002 8:56 am

If you do a google search for A330-200F you get a lot of stuff, much from statements Dieder Lenormand at Airbus has made.

He spectulates about 4000 mile range and 60 to 70 tons. I'm sure that means more or less. I think 60 or 70 tons is pretty damn light, considering the A300F4-600R can carry about 60ish.

A 90 ton freighter would be a great replacement for the MD-11F or DC-10F. The MD-11F is about 4200 mile range with 91t payload.

This very topic is why I asked the other day about cargo and ETOPS.

N
 
FDXmech
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RE: A330F?

Tue Nov 19, 2002 10:02 am

I like the idea of an A330F, though I think Airbus would need to offer a real sweetheart deal to wean the major freight carriers from the A300-600F.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
fly_yhm
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RE: A330F?

Tue Nov 19, 2002 12:27 pm

I would love to see that in FedEx colors.
Where will you spend eternity? He,s more real then you think!!!!!
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
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RE: A330F?

Tue Nov 19, 2002 12:29 pm

They wouldn't have to win them away - I don't think they'd be competing products.

The A330-200F's range would be far greater than the A300Fs. The A300F would still be great for short-ish hops.

So if you look at FedEx, for example... you'd have to win them away from the MD-11F. I'm not so sure a 65t freighter could do that. Hopefully they'll structurally reinforce the beast to make it carry a higher payload.

N
 
sllevin
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RE: A330F?

Tue Nov 19, 2002 12:48 pm

It may be a tough sell because of the number of freighters and pax machines that could be converted.

The A300 fits a particular niche in being a short-range widebody.

The real niche I see is actually for narrowbodies to replace the 727 fleet at FedEx, for example. An A320/321F might be the solution there, although converted 737-300's will again compete on the lower price (since Freighters generally have lower utilization rates, the capital costs play a bigger role).

Steve
 
gigneil
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RE: A330F?

Tue Nov 19, 2002 1:32 pm

Heh again Google is a great solution to fuel speculation...

If you google for A320 freighter, or any combination of Airbus and freighter, you can get some good speculation on that too...

Some EADS documents indicate that they will be ready to begin converting A320 series aircraft starting in 2004. They don't specify which.

Also, interestingly enough, if you go to the 737NG website at Boeing one of the little things down by "Efficiency" and all the little blurbs in the bottom left hand, it says "20 ton freighter". Either someone's confused, or Boeing's got a 737NG freighter they don't know about....

I can't wait for A320s to start flying as freighters...

N
 
Ivo
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RE: A330F?

Tue Nov 19, 2002 6:38 pm

Lan Chile and Emirates are looking at it.

Ivo
 
gigneil
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RE: A330F?

Tue Nov 19, 2002 8:23 pm

Lan Chile and Emirates are looking at the A330F? Those would be great customers for the plane.

I wonder what the holdup is. An article from July of this year said that in 2001 they would have launched it for 10-15 airframes, and that the number hasn't changed much.

ILFC has insisted on wanting this plane as part of their new big freighter initiative, and if Emirates wants it I can't imagine they just want 1. What more is it going to take?

N
 
UPS Pilot
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RE: A330F?

Tue Nov 19, 2002 9:17 pm

The Airbus deal UPS signed for the A306 order has an option for an A330f. This would fill in between the 767 and MD-11. With the influx of a lot of newer used planes on the market, It would be tough to justify R&D on a pure freighter for the new aircraft market. The 757 and 767 conversion programs have been sucessful. I think only a few carriers right now would be interested in a new a330f. I feel this wouldn't justify the R&D expense at the current time when alot of R&D money is going towards the A380
 
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s.p.a.s.
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RE: A330F?

Wed Nov 20, 2002 12:13 am

Boeing has indeed a freighter version from the 737NG, the C-40 Clipper used by the USN has a large freight door. Guess they operate as combis though.

Rgds,

Renato
"ad astra per aspera"
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
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RE: A330F?

Wed Nov 20, 2002 7:46 am

I thought there were problems with the 757 and 767 using standard size containers without a loss, or something of that nature? Something that the A300 fixes naturally with its wider body, and therefore so would the A330.

Anyway, having read Boeing's cargo forecast, I still think there might be room for this plane if really for no other reason than range, and that people are currently very happy with their Airbus freighters. I think that might give both the A330 and any A320/321 momentum.



I wonder if Boeing's planning on selling a non military version of the C-40... their website makes it seem as if they are.

N
 
F4N
Posts: 507
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RE: A330F?

Wed Nov 20, 2002 9:22 am

To all:

It would be interesting to see if Boeing would respond to A330F with a 777F.

Lots of possibilities to consider here...

Regards,

F4N
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
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RE: A330F?

Wed Nov 20, 2002 5:49 pm

bump.

this is a great topic.

N
 
DC10GUY
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RE: A330F?

Wed Nov 20, 2002 9:06 pm

The biggest reason FEDEX won't buy a new A330-200F is price. UPS Has pissed a lot of cash away on new airplanes that have really low utilization. Beautiful airplanes but WOW what a price tag. The used 757 or A320 is my bet for FEDEX's next airplane.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: A330F?

Thu Nov 21, 2002 1:24 am

I read that the 727F really has no ideal substitute. The 733F has a shorter range and makes an unsatisfactory replacement. I don't recall the article I read this in but it stated something to the effect of:

"The best replacement for a 727F is another 727F." For a number of reasons, it fills its role very well. The 330/340 line is going to be open for a long, long time. Someday we will see a 330F being built.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: A330F?

Thu Nov 21, 2002 7:33 am

Fedex has also bought 50 or 60 new A300-600Fs from Airbus, and many of their MD-11s are new as well (DC-10s too).

Fedex is no stranger to buying new airplanes.

N
 
sllevin
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Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: A330F?

Thu Nov 21, 2002 10:06 am

Gigneil:

Very true. But all those new aircraft were ordered when the deserts looked, well, deserted. Now things are slower and there are far more aircraft available for conversion.

Steve
 
DC10GUY
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RE: A330F?

Thu Nov 21, 2002 2:40 pm

50 to 60 new A300's ? That number is a little high ... FEDEX Bought 36 new A300's ... It amazes me how many people on this board talk out of their ass. With this kind of BS they should be in airline management ....
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
BA
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RE: A330F?

Thu Nov 21, 2002 3:03 pm

Dc10guy,

It's you who needs to stop being an ass. Not everyone is knows everything and has aircraft fleet numbers for every airline in the world memorized.

So he was off. So what! He made a mistake. Don't make a big deal out of it!
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: A330F?

Thu Nov 21, 2002 3:49 pm

I was only off by 14 to 24.  Sad

Sorry.

Regarding the 757F and 767F... I mentioned this before but nobody responded... isn't there a reason FedEx doesn't have 757Fs and 767Fs? Is there some problem interlining containers between the two?

N
 
DC10GUY
Posts: 2590
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 5:52 am

RE: A330F?

Thu Nov 21, 2002 4:49 pm

Hey dudes... When I say" talking out their ass" I simply mean people form a opinion with out the facts ... I'm sorry I seemed mean. Back to the topic A330's are too expensive for FEDEX right now. (I now because I work at FEDEX) FEDEX is always looking at the airplane market. They also bought too many MD11's. The rumor here is that all the leased DC10-30's are going back to the leasing company.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
KAL_LM
Posts: 492
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2001 8:58 am

RE: A330F?

Thu Nov 21, 2002 7:54 pm

Gigneil...
There is a compatability issue with the 767F and the 757F but only if you aren't paying attention. It mostly comes from the way they are loaded.

The 757F is loaded in a lateral nature, containers in a line width-wise in 1 row. On the 767F they are loaded longitudinally (like on a 747/MD-11/DC-10 et. al.) in 2 rows vc. 1 row. Where you can get into trouble is when you get an M1 (AMJ) these get center-loaded on the 767F and are too big for the 757F. As long as you use A2N (contoured A2 containers, can't remember IATA name) everything you can put on a 757F will fit onto a 767F (they needed to be contoured due to the slope of the side walls on the 767F) and vice versa. If you have the older A2s (non-contoured) they won't fit on the 767F, but will on the 757F. So there is a little bit of interchangability issue. (this is from memory as I don't work with the freight nazis anymore, but it hasn't been that long...)

As for why FedEx doesn't have them, I can't and wouldn't want to speak out of my *ss, but to speculate...they had aircraft they could use to fill the roles the 75/76F do. Maybe they're being over/under-used in those roles but FedEx seems happy without them.

regards,
Tom
is that a light at the end of the tunnel or just a train?
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: A330F?

Thu Nov 21, 2002 7:58 pm

Tom...

Thanks. I knew I had heard something somewhere.

N
 
UPS Pilot
Posts: 883
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RE: A330F?

Thu Nov 21, 2002 8:02 pm

The 757 has been an exceptional replacement of the 727-200 f at UPS. It has better range, more capacity, 2 man crew with one less engine. Fed Ex decided to purchase both new and used 727-200 f's because of lower cost and due to their own hush kit program for the aircraft in which they had sold to other airlines.

The 767-300f that UPS operates were purchased new as well. The choices at the time were the 767, DC-10, MD-11, and A300. The 767 had more capacity and range over the a300. The 767 was more efficient than the DC-10. The MD-11 was larger than the role the 767 plays for UPS. The A300 and MD-11 have since joined the UPS fleet. The A300 has filled the role between the 757 and 767. The MD-11 will eventually be used on more Asian and Europe Trans Continental flights. The 757 and 767 have performed very well at UPS.

I have heard a lot of talk in the past that Fred Smith had a falling out with Boeing. That is why he went with Airbus. I don't know how true that is. I know when UPS was working with Boeing engineers when designing the 757/767 freighter they had some customer service issues. UPS wanted a rigid barrier instead of the 9 g cargo nets between the cockpit and the cargo deck. This allows for one extra can on the main deck as compared to the 9 g net. Boeing said it couldn't be done. Well it was done and worked well. The UPS A306 also have this were they can carry one more can than the FDX A306.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: A330F?

Thu Nov 21, 2002 8:14 pm

I think I've read about this falling out somewhere too, as a possible explanation why FedEx, during all their new ordering, didn't order 747Fs as well...

All the BAe freighters I've seen have this rigid barrier of which you speak... even the older HS 748s.

If I exaggerated FedEx's order, I'm certainly not exaggerating UPS's order of at least 60 new A306s... so it seems they're doing quite well for both carriers.

I guess FedEx also has that one step between the narrowbodies and the A306... or two rather, A310-200Fs and A310-600Fs.

N

for some reason carrying freight has been on my mind lately...  Smile
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
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RE: A330F?

Thu Nov 21, 2002 8:17 pm

Allow me to correct myself, before the vultures set in...  Smile

A310-200Fs and A310-300Fs. They, for obvious reasons, have no A310-600Fs.

Sorry.

N

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