Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
HA_DC9
Topic Author
Posts: 571
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 1999 3:16 pm

Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Thu Nov 28, 2002 5:20 pm

More bad news for UA.


------------------------------------------------
From Yahoo News:
United Airlines Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts
By Kathy Fieweger

CHICAGO (Reuters) - Mechanics at United Airlines said on Thursday they rejected their portion of $1.5 billion in proposed pay cuts over 5-1/2 years, potentially leading to an imminent bankruptcy filing unless the No. 2 U.S. airline can hammer out a new deal with the union workers quickly.

The International Association of Machinists, District 141M, said its 13,000 members rejected the deal by a 57 percent margin. Some 24,000 other IAM members, including public service workers and baggage handlers, part of a separate bargaining unit called District 141, approved their portions of the cuts.

Elk Grove Village, Illinois-based United, a unit of UAL Corp. (NYSE:UAL - news), said in a statement it would begin new talks with the mechanics immediately.

The mechanics' rejection jeopardizes pay-cut agreements achieved by sister unions, including those for pilots and flight attendants, which all said the givebacks were contingent on every single union taking part in the sacrifices.

United posted massive financial losses in 2001 after the Sept. 11 attacks and again this year as revenues remained weak.

The airline recently secured $5.2 billion in wage cuts from its employees, including five separate unions, as part of a financial recovery plan put before the Air Transportation Stabilization board. That is a new federal agency created after the Sept. 11 attacks and charged with doling out up to $10 billion in loan guarantees.

United has asked the agency to back $1.8 billion of a $2 billion loan. It has met with staffers every week recently after the board said more labor wage concessions were needed than what the airline originally outlined.

Industry experts say a decision from the ATSB will determine the near-term fate of United as it tries to avoid restructuring through the courts.

Pressure on United to present a government agency with a broad package of labor concessions has intensified in recent weeks. The airline faces a big debt repayment of $375 million on Monday for which it needs new capital.

The ATSB has been a tough sell for many airlines -- some have had their financial plans approved, but others, like National Airlines, have been rejected and stopped flying after they ran out of money.

The powerful IAM represents a variety of workers at United from mechanics and customer service agents to baggage handlers and reservation agents. A committee of leaders agreed to the pay cuts only after months of intensive negotiations, having won their first pay raises since 1994 earlier this year.

BANKRUPTCY MAY COME SOON

United faces an imminent bankruptcy filing unless it can persuade the government to grant the loan guarantees very soon as part of the landmark aviation bailout package passed last year. The government wants broad labor cost reductions and a viable business plan.

Mechanics, distrustful of management they say has misguided the company in the past, apparently disagreed with the need to cut costs.

"Each employee measured the costs and benefits of participating in United's recovery plan," said Scotty Ford, District 141-M president, in a statement. "In the end, some thought the risk was worth taking, and others felt they had sacrificed enough. We respect both decisions and this organization will aggressively represent their common interests as this extraordinary situation unfolds."






 
User avatar
B747-437B
Posts: 8917
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Thu Nov 28, 2002 5:28 pm

If United were a book, we would have just reached the end of Chapter 10.

 
Guest

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Thu Nov 28, 2002 5:37 pm

The annoying thing is, that earlier agreements with pilots, flight attendents, etc. are all contingent on every single union taking part in the sacrifices. So if the mechanics say no, the other agreements are gone as well...
 
User avatar
lapper
Posts: 1562
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 6:42 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Thu Nov 28, 2002 5:39 pm

Nice one UAL mechanics, what would you rather have, less money or no job?!?
 
MxCtrlr
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Thu Nov 28, 2002 5:42 pm

Once again, it looks like the IAM will kill yet another major carrier. Anyone remember the IAM's stand at Eastern in 1989??? Sound familiar??? How good are those "industry leading wages" going to be in the unemployment line? Wake up IAM!!!!! The unions are as stupid as the airline's managment!

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
User avatar
B747-437B
Posts: 8917
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Thu Nov 28, 2002 5:45 pm

Once again, it looks like the IAM will kill yet another major carrier.

With all due respect, the IAM leadership completely and unequivocally reccomended that the membership vote YES on this concessions package. I think the blame lies with the rank-and-file employees here rather than with the union structure.
 
User avatar
B747-437B
Posts: 8917
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Thu Nov 28, 2002 6:16 pm

Here is the statement of United CEO Glenn Tilton on the issue :

"Clearly, we're disappointed that our mechanic and related employees represented by IAM District 141M did not approve the tentative agreement with United. Nevertheless, we remain fully committed to the goals of the United Airlines Union Coalition in achieving labor-cost savings that will enable us to secure federally backed loans. We will immediately begin talks with the IAM 141M leadership to ensure that a contract proposal consistent with the coalition's framework is brought before the membership as soon as possible."
 
DC9Fixer
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2000 4:45 pm

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Thu Nov 28, 2002 6:39 pm

Good luck guys!!
Before all you people condem these people think about usair
They voted yes and got screwed anyway. ual mechs did the only thing
that made sense.
 
MxCtrlr
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Thu Nov 28, 2002 6:45 pm

B747-437B,

While it may be generalizing saying "the IAM will kill yet another airline", understand that while union leadership advised passage, IAM union members failed to follow their leaders' advice. Either way you slice it, it will be the IAM (either by leadership or membership) that looks like it will cause UAL to seek bankruptcy. With that said, I stand by my previous statement.

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
hkgspotter1
Posts: 5750
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:43 pm

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Thu Nov 28, 2002 6:46 pm

Guess they don't want a job with UA anymore as thats whats going to happen... NO MORE UA.
 
MxCtrlr
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Thu Nov 28, 2002 7:11 pm

Hkgspotter1, I don't think that this necessarily means the end of UAL or that they will cease to exist. What will more likely happen is they will be forced to file for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy and reorganize. This will actually put more pressure on the IAM and ALPA.

Dc9fixer, yes, I agree that the USAir guys got screwed, and so did all of us at the original Pan Am in 1991 when we were told "ratify this contract or we'll go out of business". We did and they still went out of business (the very next day to be exact). What I do not agree with is that the IAM mechanics "did the only thing that made sense". What would have made sense for the IAM and ALPA was to not pressure UAL for ridiculously-high industry-leading wages that ultimately caused further financial problems at UAL. That statement in no way exonerates the piss-poor management that has plagued UAL from the days of "Alegiant" (or whatever their parent company was called back in the late 80's), when they tried to be everything travel-related - hotel, car rental, airline, etc. That began the spiral and Stephen Wolf just continued to bleed it.

What is truly sad is to see yet another venerable air carrier get into trouble financially because of stupid management blowing cash hand-over-fist with no regard to the company they are in charge of and idiot rank-and-file employees, asking for, and getting, pie-in-the-sky wages. To make $45/hour is great but what good is it when it causes your livelihood to disappear. Try making $45/hour at the few repair stations that will take these guys if they hit the streets - they'll be lucky to get $20/hour! What message does this send for the employees of an "employee-owned company" to break the bank! A sad day for both UAL mismanagement and people too blind to see the gravy train they are screwing over. Remember the adage "Don't bite the hand that feeds you!"

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
A former TWU Shop Steward - TWU Local 500
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 4135
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Thu Nov 28, 2002 11:53 pm

The leadership says YES and the rank-and-file says NO???? And this is called a UNION??? Huh????
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:08 am

If you want to blame any Union for this you have to look to AMFA. They have been whispering in the Mechanics ear that they can do better during this whole process. The Company and IAM 141M are dong to sit down and renegotiate again. But I think this was just about the most selfish stupid vote I have ever seen.

I can go and get another job. I have a good degree. I don't have to work for UA, I do because I want to, and I think the rewards in the end are better. But if the Mechanics of UA are worried about putting food on the table for thier kids, just remember there are not all that many airplane mechanics jobs out there. Your skills are a bit more specialized. And where ever you go you'd be starting from scratch.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
MxCtrlr
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:30 am

Well said, UALPHLCS! As far as blaming AMFA, you cannot possibly expect me to believe that licensed A & P mechanics are too dumb to spot a sales pitch when its presented to them? Of course AMFA can tell them they could do better but guess what, ask them who they have done better for! The answer will most likely be hems and haws and no real answer at all! Remember that unions and company management are just two sides of the same coin, with the rank-and-file caught in the middle. Both the unions and the companies they oppose, are big businesses. Don't think so? Look at their International's bank account numbers. There are BIG BUCKS in "being the workers' friend"! The problem isn't AMFA, the IAM, or any other union per se, the problem is partly the employees pricing themselves out of the market. If they make $45/hour or pilots make $360K/year, where do they think that money is coming from - fares paid by passengers. Now, consider that when the pilots began their "Summer of Hell" campaign against UAL, they weren't hurting the company as much as they were hurting themselves. By playing all of the games they did, their customers left, many to not return again. Now, UAL is saddled with higher costs, due to the concessions made to ALPA, and fewer passengers to pay for those higher costs. In the end, the consumer pays for these little games and UA tried to raise fares to cover the additional cost and guess what? The few remaining business travelers they had also started to leave because they were complaining about the fares and lousy service, BEFORE the "Summer of Hell" began!

Wake up guys and smell the airline coffee! You've made yourselves too expensive for your employer and, more importantly, too expensive for your customers! Think about it!

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
MD88Captain
Posts: 1224
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 9:50 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:31 am

Chapter 11 will see the UAL mechanics taking a much bigger paycut than they just turned down. It also sets the stage for a full blown reorganization of UAL from top to bottom through the bankruptcy courts. UAL will come out the other side of this as a much smaller and weaker carrier. Assets will be sold, layoffs will be extensive, retirement plans will be decimated, and everyone will point the finger at the mechanics.
 
MxCtrlr
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 4:08 am

MD88Captain,

In the interest of fairness, let's not only point the finger of blame at the mechanics, but at the pilots (before their "giveback") and UAL management since 1985 and their equally stupid practices. Remember that UAL's CEO in 2000 stuck his head in the sand for MONTHS before acknowledging that there was anything wrong at his airline. All the while, his on-time percentage was hovering around 20% and cancellations were running at 40-50%. Through all of that, the CEO kept up the mantra that "nothing is wrong". That's stupidity! Equal blame needs to be placed across the board (with the exception of the CSA's and F/A's).

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
MD88Captain
Posts: 1224
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 9:50 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 4:24 am

On the football field the last guy to throw the punch usually draws the flag. If this rejection brings Chapter 11, then the mechanics will draw the blame forever. Is there plenty of blame for everyone? Sure. But it will be the mechanics that will be seen as pulling the rug out from under the efforts to avoid bankruptcy. And when the bankruptcy judge starts slashing salaries to USAir levels the other employees will blame the mechanics. And Tilton will tell everyone they could have saved it if only the mechanics had thrown in their ante with the rest of the troops. And when layoffs come... And when assets are sold off... And when UAL slips below CAL, NWA, and SWA in size and strength... The coming demise will be born squarely on the backs of the mechs.
 
propilotjw
Posts: 520
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2000 1:02 pm

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 7:02 am

I think that UAL is doing this in hopes of the government bailing them out with Ch. 11. If they don't file or something happens where the govt. won't help...they are pretty much screwed. United is going to be a very different airline. The problems this airline has didn't not just come from Sept. 11, it was there before. The company has been fouled up for a long time. They are using sept. 11 as a cop out for a lot of it.
 
FLY777UAL
Posts: 4830
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 7:27 am

Wow...so exactly which airline are these guys hoping to work for next?

Hope that if UA does go into Chapter 11, the bankruptcy judge shows no mercy towards the mechanics.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
727_Gal
Posts: 318
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:26 pm

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 8:06 am

This sounds amazingly stupid of the mechanics. If UA does go under, it's not like the rest of the industry is thriving, so I'm not sure where exactly they plan to find jobs. Why couldn't they have just taken the pay cut now, and then maybe things would get better (including their pay) later?
 
maiznblu_757
Posts: 4952
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 12:05 pm

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 8:15 am

Breaking news....

Newsflash mechanics, maybe you should learn the math. Filing bankruptcy mean 100% pay cuts. Thats where your headed. Most will get laid off.

UAL will file before Christmas.
 
MxCtrlr
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 10:27 am

Let's not forget though folks, Chapter 11 does NOT mean the end of everything - it is merely restructuring under court protection from creditors. Will things be rosy? Of course not! Will they be able to emerge from it? Very likely. Will it be the same airline as before? Absolutely not! Will the mechanics, pilots and mismanagement get the gravy deals that they see today? Not a chance in hell but again, Chapter 11 does not mean the end for everyone. On the other side of the coin though, there will be jobs lost - some permanently - and that is never a good thing!

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
Former Shop Steward - PA TWU Local 500
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
MD88Captain
Posts: 1224
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 9:50 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 10:51 am

I believe I read that only 10 or so of the last 100 airlines to file Chapter 11 avoided liquidation. And that includes TWA.
 
nonrevman
Posts: 1265
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 11:17 am

I feel bad for the employees who do not ask for too much and work for United because they enjoy working in the aviation field and/or enjoy using those travel benefits. Now, a lot of people face the grim possibility of being in the unemployment line right before Christmas. Some people say that the economy is recovering. Yet I wonder if they are looking for a job right now. That would be the last thing I would want to do right now. It would be far worse than a pay cut. It looks like the union leadership recommended that the motion pass for the concessions, but the mechanics voted against it. That is unfortunate for a lot of people. Maybe there is still time for them to think about it and try to work something out.
 
scxmechanic
Posts: 479
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 1999 10:20 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 11:56 am

A lot of you guys are bashing the mechanics when you don't know the real story. All you read are the press releases.

Do any of you know how long the mechanics at UAL went without a pay raise or a new contract? In the neighborhood of several years while UAL management dragged their feet. And where is there retro pay?

What about the ESOP program where employees gave up millions in wage increases to "help" the airline and ended up with stock worth nothing when management broke the company with all its silly schemes. Avolar ring any bells? Sounds a lot like Enron huh?

And what about the mandatory 6 on and 2 off schedule where guys can no longer have a normal life? If there is such a thing working midnights.

What about the lies that were told in the past that are too many to list here...?

United Airlines has done nothing but lie to their people and the mechanics have finally had enough. They are standing up for whats right and decent and I applaud them.

I think all of you should SHUT the F*CK up until you know the facts. And no I don't work for UAL, just privy to some of the facts from friends who are employed there...
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 12:02 pm

Continental is a good example of a Chapter 11 success story. Haven't they been Chap. 11 twice? I know for sure once.

N
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 12:05 pm

United Airlines has done nothing but lie to their people and the mechanics have finally had enough. They are standing up for whats right and decent and I applaud them.

I don't think this is about right or wrong anymore, it will not matter at all whether they are right or wrong when they are unemployed next week, or have been forced to take a massive pay-cut that will make this one look like a walk in the park.

Even the Pilots give-backs while deep reaching still leave them higher paid than almost everyone in the industry. People are acting like they are really going to suffer from this, yet they are still (from what I read), about 2% higher than the AA pilots and a lot more than the ones at Continental.

Jeremy
 
MxCtrlr
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 12:06 pm

SCXmechanic,

What's the word I'm looking for here.....oh yeah - WAH. How much money were those poor, overworked mechanics making beforehand? $20 - $27/hour? And how many actual hours a day do they work their little fingers to the bone? I've worked for major carriers and to say that we worked - I mean really worked - no more than 4 hours a day, it giving some credit. Sure, there were days when nothing went right but there were far more days where the aircraft must of had udders because everyone was milking the jobs. I remember one mechanic at the original PA actually complaining about how badly he was being screwed because he just lost a week of vacation and some other rules changes. Bear in mind that in the time I worked at PA, the only thing this guy ever did as a mechanic, was to empty the ashtrays and make coffee for us in the breakroom and sweep it out. He couldn't even tell you where his toolbox was! For this "screwing", he was being paid almost $20/hour! I'll say it probably is the same at UAL so let's not try to make the mechanics look like they were one step from a soup kitchen (ironically, that's where some of them are now because of their "industry-leading blunder"). Again, this is just my opinion....

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 12:09 pm

In the interest of fairness, let's not only point the finger of blame at the mechanics, but at the pilots (before their "giveback")

I'm no fan of pilot's, when it comes to their unions, but why blame them? Because United turned every day into Christmas for those guys by raising the white flag? It wasn't the pilot's fault, that idiocy rests squarly with management.

I think that UAL is doing this in hopes of the government bailing them out with Ch. 11. If they don't file or something happens where the govt. won't help...they are pretty much screwed.

What is UAL doing, specifically? They didn't reject this agreement, the IAM did. And UAL is virtually assured NOT to get the government money without these concessions-not that UAL should get it anyway.

Maybe-just maybe-I can venture a unique thought here-maybe this is the BEST thing that could happen to UA in the long run. It may force them to make the hard choices that will for fundamental, significant changes there that will lead to LONG-TERM, not short-term financial health. These concessions/Chapter 11/govt bailout money will only deal with SHORT TERM problems. UAL-inded the whole industry-needs to make hard, tough choices to stabalize the industry in the long term.

They are using sept. 11 as a cop out for a lot of it.

If you're saying 9/11 had NOTHING to do with it, you're wrong. 9/11 isn't the sole reason for the problems, but it is a major reason. The other major reason is that the economy was slumping and business travel was already declining leading up to 9/11, and 9/11 flattened the business of high-yield travellers to the point that it almost didn't come back. So, it was the economy, 9/11, and the incessant volatility of industry, that, in unison, have laid the industry waste.

I was on the sidelines at CO when EA, thanks to two egomaniacs named Frank Lorenzo and Charlie Bryan destroyed that carrier. Management, under Lorenzo, played a significant part in that debacle, but so did the IAM, which, it seems, hasn't learned a god damned thing in the ensuing decade. If the IAM pushes it, or if the mechanics do believe the smoke that AMFA is blowing up their collective asses right now, UA could suffer the same fate.
 
MD88Captain
Posts: 1224
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 9:50 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 12:14 pm

It looks like UA and US Airways may race each other to the break up stage.
 
Gnomon
Posts: 894
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 1999 12:38 pm

SCXmechanic

Fri Nov 29, 2002 12:14 pm

I don't CARE how bad the UA mechanics have had it over the last several years. I don't care about their low wages or abuse from management. I really don't care if they were made to eat hot coals on the tarmac while working 23-hour shifts in sub-zero temps while pulling aircraft with their front teeth.

All I care about is that they shot down the airline's last remaining chance for fiscal survival. As MD88Captain pointed out, they're ultimately responsible for what happens to UAL.

If the mechanics, as a group, systemically rejected the cost-saving proposal to seek vengeance on management, their motives are just as misplaced as if they voted it down out of greed. I'm truly sorry if UA mechanics have writhed under a bad lot over the years, but pissing away their employer's last chance is the quickest way to ruin the whole enterprise for everybody, including themselves. Doesn't seem very logical, does it? Those who honestly believe that UAL's mechanics acted pragmatically are beyond hope.

But as many have already pointed out in this thread, we'll see who has the last laugh when all these mechanics are on the street. It sure ain't going to be them.

The people whom you gracefully told to "shut the f**k up" are the pragmatic, realistic souls who recognize the precarious position in which unions have placed this volatile airline industry.
 
lymanm
Posts: 1102
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:30 pm

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 12:38 pm

While there is more than meets the eye regarding the issue with the IAM, it is still highly irresponsible for the IAM to virtually run the airline to the ground. Yes, employee groups have been screwed over in the past and it sucks. But if the union coalition implodes, then everyone will suffer: FAs, Pilots, Mechanics and even management (with the exception of the big-wigs, who always have golden parachute clauses).

"And what about the mandatory 6 on and 2 off schedule where guys can no longer have a normal life? If there is such a thing working midnights."

So the previous schedule looked like this:

Mon: shift
Tues: shift
Wed: shift
Thurs: shift
Fri: shift
Sat: shift
Sun: off
Mon: off
Tues: shift
Wed: shift
Thurs: shift
Fri: shift etc etc etc

With the latest IAM announcement, the new schedule will look like this:

Mon: off
Tues: off
Wed: off
Thurs: off
Fri: off
Sat: off
Sun: off
Mon: off
Tues: off
Wed: off
Thurs: off etc etc etc

Yes, this certainly sounds like a "normal life".
buhh bye
 
scxmechanic
Posts: 479
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 1999 10:20 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:13 pm



You guys are hopeless. I'm not even going to try to persuade you to my way of thinking.

The mechanics at UAL have been handed a rotten egg. I don't think it is for ANY of you to say they should do this or that. I think they fully understand the repercussions of their actions in regard to the "NO" vote. So let deal with the consequence's.

You can only kick a dog so much before it turns and bites your foot!

And MxCtrlr. I too have worked at another major besides the one I'm with now. And I know how lax things can be. So is that the mechanics fault they are under utilized? I'm sure all places of employment have their inefficiencies. Some more profound than others. Is this not a management issue? Would you just quit if night after night, you had no assignment? I think not!

As I said before.. None of you have a right to bitch. Walk a mile in a UAL mechanics shoes... See what he/she have put up with and have lost before you judge.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:26 pm

I think they fully understand the repercussions of their actions in regard to the "NO" vote. So let deal with the consequence's.

Do they really? I heard that from EA mechanics, and a year later, they were all looking for a job. I see this is the same old, typical IAM stupidity raising it's ugly head again. I don't think they have a CLUE as to the Pandora's Box they've just opened up at UAL.

You can only kick a dog so much before it turns and bites your foot!

Yes, they're so abused, aren't they. Give me a break. And that dog can be put out if it's misery permanently for constnatly biting, can't it?

So is that the mechanics fault they are under utilized?

If they're under-utilized because their contract says they can only be utilized so much, then, yes, it is their fault.

See what he/she have put up with and have lost before you judge.

They'll be putting up with deeper pay cuts and fewer jobs now, thanks to their intrastringence.
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:29 pm

As I said before.. None of you have a right to bitch. Walk a mile in a UAL mechanics shoes... See what he/she have put up with and have lost before you judge.

I think the term we use for this is "Cutting ones nose off to spite their face"

 
Guest

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:35 pm

Weapons formed against you will not prosper!!!!


I think the monkeys are running the zoo at 141M
 
BR715-A1-30
Posts: 6525
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 9:30 am

B747-437B: United's Book

Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:47 pm

If United were a book, we would have just reached the end of Chapter 10.

Sean, I know we just reached the end of Chapter 10, but have we read Chapter 7 yet  Big grin (or did we skip that until the end of Chapter 11...You know what they say. Save the best for last)
Puhdiddle
 
User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 4135
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:56 pm

Gnomon, outstanding points you make. Mechanics want people to believe they have pretty much been pulling planes with their teeth and made to work 25 hours a day. In this increasingly deflationary economy where nearly everything is going backwards, forgive us if no one brings out the violin at the 'we haven't had a raise in forever' lament. I very much like the bullseye that the IAM has painted on themselves here. The rationale that 'the bigwigs are making all the $$$ and us little guys need a break' holds water no more. The IAM has a nearly impossible PR challenge ahead to make people believe that THEY shouldn't be vilified here. Happily, it won't work. It is wonderful to have a clear villain here, and it is the AIM. Can you say PATCO?
 
ORD Boy 2
Posts: 323
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 12:25 pm

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 2:02 pm

IAM IS RUINING A GREAT AIRLINE
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 2:04 pm

Weapons formed against you will not prosper!!!!

IAM leader Charlie Bryan said the same thing prior to Eastern being sold to Texas Air.

Another telling quotation came from UAL ALPA leader Rick Dubinsky last year:

"We don't want to kill the golden goose; we just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg."

It would seem the golden goose is in an ICU on life support suffering from patient neglect and the effects of strangulation.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 2:04 pm

IAM IS RUINING A GREAT AIRLINE

Yeah, I remember my first beer, too.
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 2:44 pm

Actually, there was an article about AMFA in yesterday's (or day before) WSJ. They have been trying to get UA mechs to switch and have drawn the ire of IAM. AMFA apparently makes some pie in the sky type promises.

Sure UA had some bad management. The attempted purchase of USAirways at $60/share was their big mistake. I think airline CEO's should have a rule against doing any deal where Stephen Wolf is on the other side of the table. But a huge chunk of blame lies on the shoulders of UA's ALPA unit. They extorted huge raises in order to buy off on the merger which never happened. This was on top off a 'snap-back' to pre-ESOP wages-- a benefit no other employee group received. I think UA's pilots and management are equally culpable for the current mess.

I do not know what the rank and file mechs are thinking. Hopefully they were not thinking that AMFA is going to come to their rescue. I think they made a mistake though. With their vote, their futures have been taken from their hands and have been sent to a bankruptcy judge.

I really love UAL and hate to see this happened. Good luck to all at United.
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 6:03 pm

Memo to UAL mechanics/machinists: Uhhh, last time I checked if the airline goes out of business (which it may be on track to do), you dont even get a pay check.

I wish these unions would smarten up for a change.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
fdxtech
Posts: 39
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2000 3:33 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 6:26 pm

For all parties concerned about an aircrafts mechanics utilization...Aircraft mechanics get paid, not so much for what or how much we do, we get paid for what we know!!! Best of luck UAL.
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 11:35 pm

I am not one to get to pissed at fellow work groups (pilots excepting) I talk w/ the Mechanics alot in my role at PHL. I talked w/ hem about the deal, I knew alot where agaisnt it. I had hoped that SFOMM and INDMM and the other big stations would win the day.

scxmechanic. I have read the deal. I have read my deal as well. I knew full well that there where aspects of it that I didn't like. It was a bitter pill to swallow. But I did it. I did it to keep working for the only airline I want to work for. When you decide to work for an airline w/ all the crazy shifts and unpredictable variabl;es that can keep you late such as snow. You accept that as part of the job. You accept a weird schedule because thats life in this indusrty. So don't give me on anyone esle this sob story that we don't know all the facts. I DO.

FACT 1) UA will file for bankruptcy on Monday or Tuesday bacause of this vote.

Fact 2) There are not that many mecanic jobs that would pay the rates MM would have gotten under the deal. I hope they can find them.

FACT 3) All the other work groups bit the bullet and did what they had to do.

FACT 4) This was not ESOP. Any bitterness they had about ESOP should not have effected this deal this deal was much BETTER than ESOP.

FACT 5) The membership went against the recomendations of the Union leadership a voted this down. That was a message from AMFA.

Don't give us any cry-baby BS. The stakes are too high to be playing chicken.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Sat Nov 30, 2002 12:02 am

Mxcntlr>>>And how many actual hours a day do they work their little fingers to the bone? I've worked for major carriers and to say that we worked - I mean really worked - no more than 4 hours a day, it giving some credit. Sure, there were days when nothing went right but there were far more days where the aircraft must of had udders because everyone was milking the jobs.<<<

Did a mechanic ever hurt you or steal your girlfriend. Perhaps you couldn't cut it as a mechanic, I mean actually troubleshoot and repair a probem. Perhaps you can enlighten other mechanics on this board your animousity towards us.

__________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________

Hey Fdxtech or should I say, bubba. Howya doin?
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Sat Nov 30, 2002 1:03 am

Aircraft mechanics get paid, not so much for what or how much we do, we get paid for what we know!!!

Wrong, you get paid for putting what you know to work on fixing an aircraft. You make it sound like a damn Mensa society or something.
 
MxCtrlr
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Sat Nov 30, 2002 1:23 am

FDXmech,

Part of the fun on discussion boards such as this is the aspect of anonymity however, you are quite wrong about me and my career choice. I am, and have been for some time, a licensed A & P mechanic and am currently employed utilizing that license. I have also been an active Shop Steward for airline maintenance. Pointing out the obvious flaws in union contracts (and I have seen some really stupid things get pushed down a company's throat in such contracts) does not mean that I bear animosity towards mechanics, rather, I bear animosity to idiots who think they are entitled to anything more than a living wage. By living wage, I define that as far less than $93,600 annually (that's what $45/hours works out to annually - without overtime)!

Put into perspective (because I know the next argument will be that "we as mechanics are responsible for xx amount of lives daily"):

Paramedics don't make those kind of wages; Nurses don't make those kind of wages and arguably both of those professions deal directly with a lot more lives and life and death situations on a daily basis than the airline mechanic analogy. So that point doesn't hold water.

If faced with the prospect of getting my pay reduced or getting put on the street, it makes obvious sense to bite the bullet for a little while longer (but I guess Eastern, Pan Am, Braniff and all the rest didn't teach UAL's mechs a damn thing).

Agreed that the reason mechanics get paid well is because of what they know and not what they do, as it should be but there also gets to a point where they are being paid too much for what they know and far too much for what they do. Bottom line is that AMFA is blowing pie-in-the-sky smoke up their collective butts and the rank-and-file is too ignorant or arrogant to see a bad sales pitch when it presents itself.

Maybe, before assuming that "a mechanic stole my girlfriend" you might consider that I could be a mechanic who understands supply and demand and the fact that the UAL mechanics obviously do not. I have, as I said before, been a shop steward, flight mechanic (on both cargo and charter companies). Maybe, if the UAL mechanics want to find out what truly rotten hours and working conditions are, they should go to work for smaller cargo airlines as a flight mechanic...Remember there are duty time limitations under the FAR's - They are 4 days off in 30 calendar days, nothing more, nothing less. Technically, the airlines could work a mechanic 24 hours a day for 26 days straight, give them 4 days off, and be totally legal! Think about that when you're complaining about all of the rotten shifts and snowy nights and so on....If you wanted to work day shift forever, joining the airline industry was a horrible career choice!

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
J32driver
Posts: 385
Joined: Fri May 05, 2000 2:55 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Sat Nov 30, 2002 1:45 am

UAL IAM (placing revolver to own head) says: "Don't take away my money or I'll pull the trigger damnit!!!!!"


You guys are absolutely BRILLIANT and you deserve everything the bankruptcy courts are going to take away from you and your family!!!
 
747-451
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 5:50 am

RE: Breaking NEWS: UA Mechanics Reject Pay Cuts

Sat Nov 30, 2002 7:20 am

I wonder how much the machinists will like the 26 weeks worth of unemplomtnet they will get. I'll bet the 400 a weelk will do a lot to pay for all the nice things they got while working for United. I also hope they sleep real nice at night when they force the CH11 and many others will loose their jobs....

RIP United.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos