Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
artsyman
Topic Author
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Sun Dec 22, 2002 12:58 pm

Hi Folks, Well the signs are up now at IAH that they will be shutting down the viewing areas due to idiots with missile warnings. The problem is that by doing this, they actually make the place less secure than when it was open.

Lee Road Viewing area is about 300 feet x 300 feet, it is basically a parking lot at the end of runway 27. At the moment when open, you have roughly 25 people sitting watching planes land etc, as soon as they shut it down, you will have no-one there.....Now,...

If you are a moron with a missile, is this really going to even remotely distract you from your cause ? No, would 25 people sitting at the end of the runway distract you ?...probably.

With a range of about 5 miles, these morons with missiles don't need to be anywhere near the airport, never mind in the viewing area surrounded by people.

Now, I am not sure who the morons are....

Jeremy
 
UAL Bagsmasher
Posts: 1839
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 12:52 pm

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Sun Dec 22, 2002 1:16 pm

I promise I won't mention anything about rags and turbans.
 
SAAB340
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 5:51 am

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Sun Dec 22, 2002 1:25 pm

Whats at steak here? People veiwing aircraft movements versus missle attacks on aircraft movements. Weigh out those two.... then come back and answer.

Paul
 
UAL Bagsmasher
Posts: 1839
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 12:52 pm

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Sun Dec 22, 2002 1:32 pm

What's at steak here? Ohh filet mignon, sirloin, you name it Big grin
 
SAAB340
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 5:51 am

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Sun Dec 22, 2002 1:34 pm

Funny! Lets not make light of the situation at hand. UAL Bagmasher do you have an intelligent answer or thought? If so please share!

Thanks
Paul
 
artsyman
Topic Author
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Sun Dec 22, 2002 1:38 pm

Whats at steak here? People veiwing aircraft movements versus missle attacks on aircraft movements. Weigh out those two.... then come back and answer.

My comment isnt based on what is important here, and if shutting the viewing area was going to have even the slightest chance of reducing the risks of missile attacks in Houston, I would be all for it considering that I am based there and fly in and out of it every week, but it doesnt. You could just stop on the side of the road, or do it from the bushes around the corner, or 5 miles away.....
 
UAL Bagsmasher
Posts: 1839
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 12:52 pm

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Sun Dec 22, 2002 1:39 pm

I just find it sickening how a few assholes who wear rags on their heads can ruin so many lives. I'm not referring to spotting. I'm referring to all the people they killed on 9-11 and all the jobs that were lost as a result. Ever since they killed my fellow Americans and I watched many of my friends lose their jobs as a result, I hate ragheads and always will. Flame away.
 
Guest

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Sun Dec 22, 2002 1:43 pm

I hate ragheads and always will. Flame away.

Comments like that make me so proud to be an American I take my vacations where no other American is in sight.
 
UAL Bagsmasher
Posts: 1839
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 12:52 pm

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Sun Dec 22, 2002 1:44 pm

A round of applause to the ACLU member.
 
SAAB340
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 5:51 am

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Sun Dec 22, 2002 1:44 pm

I understand your point and respect it due to the fact you fly in and out of IAH. But do you think that having the veiwing area open at this time is the best decsion? I think that the Public Relations factor is the main one dictating this.
Good topic and I hope you arent taking this as an arguement.

Thanks
Paul
 
atcboy73
Posts: 1084
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2001 10:09 am

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Sun Dec 22, 2002 1:47 pm

OK, but remember to go about your lives as if everything is normal. We will not change how we as Americans live our lives. The terrorist will not win. They will just go down to the Sheraton parking lot and launch their missiles as the jets depart to the south.

COME ON!!!

This is really stupid. Planes fly all over and if someone was going to shoot down a plane there are many places they can do it from.


This is nothing but a big disappointment.
 
SAAB340
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 5:51 am

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Sun Dec 22, 2002 1:49 pm

Thats uncalled for there UAL! I have just lost all respect for you! Sounds to me you dont get out of the country much! What about the Americans who drive SUV's and ruin the Ozone for everyone..... should i go on???

Paul
 
SAAB340
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 5:51 am

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Sun Dec 22, 2002 1:50 pm

What can we do to prevent such attacks??? Maybe start with looking at how America is veiwed around the world and change the policies that provoke such savage acts!

Paul
 
UAL Bagsmasher
Posts: 1839
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 12:52 pm

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Sun Dec 22, 2002 1:54 pm

The SUV drivers didn't set out to kill thousands of people one day for fun did they? They didn't cost thousands of people their jobs did they? They didn't leave thousands of kids without parents, did they? They didn't ruin careers, did they? Sure, they might burn a horrendous amount of fuel, but that's about it. My life and the lives of most everyone in the U.S was changed for the worse on 9-11 due to you know who. Why should I have to befriend the very people who commited this terrible crime?
 
tpk
Posts: 188
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2000 4:48 am

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Sun Dec 22, 2002 1:54 pm

Just another example of the US's ongoing knee-jerk reactive approach to aviation security - always responding to the last "never-thought-it-could-happen" event instead of taking a pro-active stance on preparing for the next.
 
UAL Bagsmasher
Posts: 1839
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 12:52 pm

RE: Tpk

Sun Dec 22, 2002 1:56 pm

Very good point. We've become way too complacent in America.
 
SAAB340
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 5:51 am

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Sun Dec 22, 2002 1:57 pm

Who are these people I am befriending UAL? My point was that the USA does plenty of things that kill are hurt others! War in Iraq, etc.. Look at ourselves at find faults before seeing faults in others! Think about it!

Paul
 
co/ba
Posts: 388
Joined: Tue May 22, 2001 1:55 pm

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Sun Dec 22, 2002 1:58 pm

"If you are a moron with a missile, is this really going to even remotely distract you from your cause ? No, would 25 people sitting at the end of the runway distract you ?...probably."


So true.
 
artsyman
Topic Author
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Sun Dec 22, 2002 2:01 pm

But do you think that having the veiwing area open at this time is the best decsion?

To be honest I don't think that this has any affect on public opinion as the general public doesnt know or care that the spotting area was there in the first place.

The really sad reality, is that there is nothing that can be done to stop this from happening, if someone wants to shoot down a plane, and has a missile launcher, there is nothing that can stop them. They could do it from many places that are undetectable, they could do it from their living room through a skylight, or from their backyard or from a park, a Mcdonalds, god knows they could do it from Hooters if they could keep their eyes off of the.... well ..er..um

 
UAL Bagsmasher
Posts: 1839
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 12:52 pm

RE: Saab340

Sun Dec 22, 2002 2:01 pm

I guess i didn't clarify myself, and I apologize. You have a good point, with all the crime etc. in the U.S. going on which we live with everyday. On the other hand, we cannot forget what these morons did to us either.
 
SAAB340
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 5:51 am

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Sun Dec 22, 2002 2:05 pm

Thanks UAL. This is not the right place to have this type of heated disscussion but that doesnt mean these should not occur. I admit I was out of hand in some of my posts disscussion but that doesnt mean these should not occur. Thanks all for your input!

Paul
 
tpk
Posts: 188
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2000 4:48 am

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Sun Dec 22, 2002 2:08 pm

I think many of us have a lot of pent up anger, concerns, and confused feelings over what has happened over the past year and a half. I know it all too well as I was at Ground Zero on 9/11. I think the important thing is to stick together in our love for aviation and hopefully when all of the dust settles from this, we'll still be able to enjoy our hobby in some capacity.

Tim
 
UAL Bagsmasher
Posts: 1839
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 12:52 pm

RE: Saab340

Sun Dec 22, 2002 2:12 pm

Sorry I came across like such a hothead. But since 9-11 I've watched so many of my friends, co-workers, and even myself have their entire lives turned upside down. Many of them have been affected to the point of needed to get professional help, all because of a bunch of idiots who thought their agenda was more important than the lives of millions of others. A once great airline may cease to exist very shortly thanks in part to 9-11. It's hard to watch and it pisses me off. You see where I'm coming from?
 
UAL Bagsmasher
Posts: 1839
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 12:52 pm

RE: Tpk

Sun Dec 22, 2002 2:14 pm

You hit the nail on the head man. I feel better now after venting. (Now i have to wait for the nastygrams to come)
 
Guest

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Sun Dec 22, 2002 2:15 pm

Many "once great" airlines were headed down this road before the 11th Sept anyway.

I'm sure the terrorists would be quite pleased to see how worked up you are over this. Such hostility and anger was their goal.
 
UAL Bagsmasher
Posts: 1839
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 12:52 pm

RE: Seiple

Sun Dec 22, 2002 2:19 pm

I know it was their goal. You know what? They suceeded. Like it or not, they accomplished everything they set out to do, and then some. Just look at the ripple effects. I hate to say it, but look around at how our lives are changing slowly but surely. True, it has made us stronger as a Nation, but they still carried out their mission with sucess Sad
 
jhooper
Posts: 5561
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Sun Dec 22, 2002 4:06 pm

Alright, this really ticks me off. We need to get together with the Houston Spotters Club and get a petition signed to stop this B.S.


See my thread below:
https://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/976660/4/

Didn't believe me at the time, did you? Well, I guess that's the last pic of mine you'll be seeing in the database. I guess I could drive up to DFW to take pics at Founder's Plaza, if they don't close it down too.

The terrorists have won.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
thomasphoto60
Posts: 3891
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 1:04 pm

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Sun Dec 22, 2002 11:44 pm

Let's not be so quick to jump the gun on this.

First let's consider 2 important facts

1. HAS has given us a 2 weeks heads up on this. Now unlike MCO and FLL which were shut down almost without warning (a few days notice for MCO, if I remember correctly) we are given to the 3rd. I find this a bit odd.....Personally, I think that perhaps HAS might be planning to do some sprucing up of this area, anyone who has ever been out there will know what I mean......wishful thinking perhaps!

2. I made a trip to both viewing areas this morning and only the Lee Rd area had the sign indicating the upcoming shut down. The Rankin Rd area was signless, which is a good indication (at least for the time being) that at least one area might be left for our enjoyment.

Personally, I am cautiously (stress.....cautiously) optimistic that spotters / photographers will still be welcome here, albeit less 1 viewing area. HAS, has tried very hard to make the spotter/photographer feel welcome and if these areas are due to be scraped, I would tend to blame any number of un-educated local city council person(s) who frankly are more interested in votes than safety.

I have maintained a close contact with someone high up in the HAS organization. Suffice it to say, I shot off an e-mail upon hearing of this and viewing the photo. My contact is very prompt to reply, so hopefully either good or bad news, I may have an update tomorrow afternoon.......Let's keep our fingers crossed.

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:21 am

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Mon Dec 23, 2002 12:51 am

Well our nation has remained WAY too politically correct after 9/11

Nothing has been done to keep the people that UALBagsmasher has referred to from still getting visas into our country although they are finally working on that. How many more came in though since 9/11 and now?

Why are grannies getting their shoes searched by TSA but those other people have been allowed to walk through metal detectors unchecked?

Fear of ACLU lawsuits

The sad thing about this country we live in is political correctness has become more important than saving our lives.

America has wimped out to not trying to offend other cultures.

When a Saudi Prince flew into JFK he requested that there be NO female rampworkers, he did not want to see women working. What did we do? we pulled them that day not to offend him. Our servicemen and women went to his country in 91 to protect him from Iraq and our servicemen weren't allowed to have Playboys and Penthouses and our women had to wear the towels when they walked on the streets. So whats the deal here? Why do we let other countries call the shots? We allow men from THESE cultures to go to nice restaurants not wearing deodorant while the rest of us lose our appetites having to smell them... but no, we can't say anything... we have to be open arms to other cultures.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Mon Dec 23, 2002 1:01 am

Nothing has been done to keep the people that UALBagsmasher has referred to from still getting visas into our country although they are finally working on that

Oh, you mean the ragheads? Yeah those bastards Arabs don't deserve to be in the US, right?

Why do we let other countries call the shots?

Because believe it or not the US isn't the only country in the world. The US needs Saudi oil, genius.

We allow men from THESE cultures to go to nice restaurants not wearing deodorant while the rest of us lose our appetites having to smell them

Therefore your culture is better.

Moron  Insane
Your bone's got a little machine
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:21 am

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Mon Dec 23, 2002 1:02 am

Back to the original idea of this post before we all got sidetracked...

Write a petition to whoever runs the airport like that guy did a few weeks back for FLL.

Try to state the facts that the location is safer with spotters and find evidence that supports that.

Alternate ideas- get some security to watch the location with a gate and charge to spot.

Most of us would be willing to spend a couple bucks right just to be allowed to spot?

Perhaps even have like at SFO a vendor there selling food, that would be another pair of eyes watching for suspicious people.

If it is a good spotting location, you can count on at least 3-4 cars there at once. DTW used to have a great spotting location under the path of runway 22L, always were at least 5 cars there.
 
User avatar
Bruce
Posts: 4947
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Mon Dec 23, 2002 1:43 am

Just because they shut down the "viewing area" I wonder if they would send police out for someone who parks on the grass shoulder of Lee Rd? All the times I was out there I did not see 1 cop drive by lee RD, and I walked out there on the road under the approach. Maybe, just maybe, they will close the parking lot but not hassle people taking pics by the side of the road??

I dont think we'll have to worry about Rankin being closed because there is a Gate there, and if they barricade it then no vehicles will ever be able to use that gate to get in or out of the airside.

By the way, why are all the trees cleared to the south of the end of Rankin Rd.?? Were they planning on building something there? My map actually has Rankin going south along the runway down to Greens Rd. Maybe HAS is closing Lee Rd in order to build a Viewing Area south of Rankin RD there?? It was just a thought. Someone needs to get the inside scoop from the Authorities.

bruce
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Mon Dec 23, 2002 2:00 am

"Why are grannies getting their shoes searched by TSA but those other people have been allowed to walk through metal detectors unchecked?"

If the TSA were to do something as brazenly stupid as to exclude the majority of a certain classification of people from intense scrutiny, I hope they'd at least have the sense to never publically admit it. I'm all for searching grannies, kiddies, men, women, Americans, foreigners, Blacks, Whites, Arabs, Latino/Hispanics, blondes, fats, slims, people with bad hairdos, etc  Insane
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
MxCtrlr
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Mon Dec 23, 2002 3:15 am

Let's put this into perspective...Since the range of a shoulder-fired missile is anywhere around 5 miles, should the airports decide that all of the space within 5 miles of the airport is now closed due to security reasons? Would that not be a violation of everybody's rights just "to protect aircraft"? Would anyone think twice about screaming about such a ban? Of course not! When it just becomes "a few planespotters" then its OK though? This is another knee-jerk reaction to an isolated instance, no different than banning nail files for "security reasons"! What is the TSA afraid of, "If you don't do what I want, I'll mangle her cuticles"?

What happens when some camel-jockey decides to go to a nearby apartment rooftop and fire at an aircraft? Are we going to force everyone in the apartment complexes near the airport to move out? How about all of the office buildings nearby? Maybe they should move out too "for security reasons"? The list goes on and on and there is no credible argument for these closures other than knee-jerk reactions.

What about the perimeter fences? I know of several places near TPA and MCO where someone can get to the perimeter fence unseen and fire off a missile if they wanted to. Does that mean that we should close all of the roadways near the airports too? Just as a "security precaution", of course! Hasn't anyone thought about the possibility that some "rebel without a clue" might just fire a shoulder-fired missile from a moving vehicle on an airport-adjacent roadway? What then? Close SR836 in MIA because it parallels the terminal and runway? Maybe close NW36th street for the same reason or I-95 and I-595 in FLL because they are close to the runways? Maybe Sepulveda Blvd and Century Blvd near LAX? How about I-5 near BFI? The list goes on and on. When is reason going to prevail?

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
b757300
Posts: 3914
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:27 pm

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Mon Dec 23, 2002 3:44 am

MxCtrlr hit the nail right on the head. The TSA and airport officials aren't thinking, they're reacting. Common sense is the best weapon against terrorists but I guess that went out the window on Sept. 11th as well. I still say 90% of airports are run by idiots.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
donder10
Posts: 6945
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Mon Dec 23, 2002 3:52 am

The really sad reality, is that there is nothing that can be done to stop this from happening, if someone wants to shoot down a plane, and has a missile launcher, there is nothing that can stop them

Well yes,the numerous photographers/spotters would most likely stop them close to the airport as it takes a while to setup to take a plane down.
MxCtrlr+B757300,I agree 100%.Apparently, some of the modern shoulder launched weapons have a range of upto 14,000ft or so.Now,I live next to Heathrow and I see flights going into Luton and Stansted at these heights.Should my area be closed off?I also live 4 miles next to Heathrow and there are lots of park areas around where it would be easy to setup to take a plane down.Maybe these should be closed too?
 
jhooper
Posts: 5561
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Mon Dec 23, 2002 4:06 am

I hope you get a favorable response Thomasphoto60. But a few weeks ago when I read an article saying that "the TSA has instructed all airports to 'review their security program'" in response to the recent missile attacks, I could only see one outcome, and this appears to be it.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Mon Dec 23, 2002 6:48 am

I want everyone to think back to the move "Animal House" and recall the line uttered in the frat house (while they were plotting revenge against the Dean and the other frat house), something like, "...this situation demands a futile gesture..."

Today, that "futile gesture" is the closing of close-in viewing areas. The airport authorities know full well that these close-in viewing viewing areas constitute a miniscule threat area when compared to the square milage area around an airport where a missile could be launched and still remain with its operating envelope. For simplicity, call it a 1% threat versus the 99% threat. The airport authorities simply have no jurisdiction for any of that 99% threat area, and can only control the miniscule 1% threat area they have responsibility for.

This can be viewed in several ways and contexts. If the airports "solve" the 1% threat exposure by shutting down airport viewing areas, they will have done the "best they could" in preventing a disaster. OK, that's true, with respect to just that 1% threat, but chances are better that any attack would originate from the 99% threat area. In fairness to the airport authorities, were they to do nothing at the airports based on the (logical and reasonable) presumption that an attack would come from the 99% threat area, they'd really be setting themselves up should someone light one off from within the 1% threat area. By closing off close-in viewing areas, airport authorities are essentially dealing with 100% of the overall 1% threat, which is all they can do. The other 99% of the threat is someone else's problem, not theirs.

All this will change, should someone sneak a Stinger or other man-portable SAM into (or offshore of) the USA and splash one or two airline aircraft. In that event, you'll see a massive push to equip all commercial transports with electronic countermeasures (not flares or chaff) to make the public feel safe to fly again. Mandating ECM would be expensive, but at any cost, it'd still be cheaper than parking the national and local economies. ECM is expensive, but more widespread and larger scale production, those costs could decline.

ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
jhooper
Posts: 5561
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Mon Dec 23, 2002 7:14 am

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
USAFHummer
Posts: 10261
Joined: Thu May 18, 2000 12:22 pm

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Mon Dec 23, 2002 12:28 pm

Another one bites the dust...

Looks like the TSA just cant understand how futile shutting down spotting areas is...

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:21 am

RE: IAH Latest To Shut Down Viewing Areas

Mon Dec 23, 2002 2:47 pm

I am already sick of this TSA. I watched them come into DTW and they started ordering the other security companies around... not the security that work the metal detectors, but security that guard the doors, respond to alarms which has nothing to do with the TSA's jurisdiction.

TSA are a bunch of ASSCLOWNS

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos