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trintocan
Posts: 2786
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2000 6:02 pm

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 9:14 am

I have just come in from a night out to hear this massive tragedy. This is too much to bear - I cannot believe it at all. Columbia gone! It was an icon to me - as I was a child back in the 80s Columbia and Challenger were the names most synonymous with the US space programme. After Challenger crashed in 1986 I was stunned - but with no Internet and only 1 TV station in Trinidad at the time I stayed up late to hear the news and listened to it on my father's short-wave radio - he actually had coverage on Soviet and BBC radio at the time! I was then shattered beyond belief to hear that. Now, as an adult, to hear that Columbia has crashed is still very massive a blow. I am truly upset by this and cannot believe it at all.

God bless the relatives and friends of those who died in this massive tragedy. May those who died rest in peace. May the Space Programme continue go from strength to strength. Love, peace and unity to the world.

TrintoCan.
Hop to it, fly for life!
 
[email protected]
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 9:14 am

I'm suprised they found human remains, i would have thought anything inside or near the shuttle would have disintegrated in seconds?
In Arsene we trust!!
 
hammer
Posts: 642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 9:02 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 9:16 am

CNN is saying now that people are claiming to have seen debris falling over California which was about 6-8 minutes from the last transmission...
 
dan2002
Posts: 2024
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2002 7:11 am

RE:What Does The "heart 1" On Southwest Planes Me

Sun Feb 02, 2003 9:17 am

May all the victims rest in peace. a sad sad day definately. Crying
But does the airstrip have an airport code i.e KCLE or something like that?





 Crying  Crying  Crying  Crying  Crying  Crying
A guy asks 'What's Punk?'. I kick over a trash can and its punk. He knocks over a trash can and its trendy.
 
BA DC-10
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2001 8:40 pm

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 9:22 am

"the USA is the only country possible of shooting anything that high down"

So the USA is capable of shooting down an aircraft travelling at 3 times the speed of concorde and 200,000 feet high?? hummmm
 
coboeing777
Posts: 677
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2001 10:21 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 9:23 am

<<<<>>>What types of substances are so dangerous that people are being advised to stay clear of them?

Propellants for the engines. They're so volatile that they need only come in contact with one another to ignite, and don't need a spark to do so. Toxic too. The names (as mentioned on TV this morning) of the stuff escape me at the moment.>>>>


I know they're are lots of potent chemicals used in the shuttle but don't you think stuff like that would have vaporized during the break up and fallout? I mean, Im no expert on it but it would seem to be what would happen. Personally, I think they are just saying that to stay away to scare people from taking debris as souveneirs. You know there are people out there who would love that. By telling them they're gonna die from cancer or what not by touching any parts I'd say it would scare people from trying to take parts. I already saw a lisitng on ebay for "shuttle debris".... some people have no shame it seems.
 
sleekjet
Posts: 2010
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2001 1:35 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 9:41 am

UAL747 - Just got off the phone with my son who is at the Plano apartment (what's left of it). The FBI and ATF are still on the scene. One of the problems is that at this point, no cause has leaped out at investigators. One of the ideas being tossed around is that debris might have separated from the shuttle prior to the explosion. If that happened, it would have landed further west and at an earlier time than the current debris field. The first 911 call on this was at 7:51 AM, 8 minutes prior to the explosion. I guess we will see.
II Cor. 4:17-18
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 9:54 am

As it turns out, a little bit of debris fell by the railroad tracks about a mile and a half away from my dorm.  Sad
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
jhooper
Posts: 5561
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:04 am

For those of you who may be unfamiliar with how the shuttle reentry is supposed to work, the following comes from NASA's Space Transportation System Reference.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The entry phase of flight begins approximately five minutes before entry interface, which occurs at an altitude of 400,000 feet. At EI minus five minutes, the orbiter is at an altitude of about 557,000 feet, traveling at 25,400 feet per second, and is approximately 4,400 nautical miles from the landing site. The goal of guidance, navigation and flight control software is to guide and control the orbiter from this state (in which aerodynamic forces are not yet felt) through the atmosphere to a precise landing on the designated runway. All of this must be accomplished without exceeding the thermal or structural limits of the orbiter.

The entry phase is divided into three separate phases because of the unique software requirements. Entry extends from EI minus five minutes to terminal area energy management interface at al altitude of approximately 83,000 feet, at a velocity of 2,500 feet per second, 52 nautical miles from the runway and within a few degrees of tangency with the nearest heading alignment cylinder in major mode 304.

..................................................

At approximately 265,000 feet, the spacecraft enters a communications blackout, which lasts until the orbiter reaches an altitude of approximately 162,000 feet. Between these altitudes, heat is generated as the spacecraft enters the atmosphere, ionizing atoms of air that form a layer of ionized gas particles around the spacecraft. Radio signals between the spacecraft and the ground cannot penetrate this sheath of ionized particles, and radio communications are blocked for approximately 16 minutes.

During the entry subphase, the primary objective is to dissipate the tremendous amount of energy that the orbiter possesses when it enters the atmosphere so that it does not burn up (entry angle too steep) or skip out of the atmosphere (entry angle too shallow), stays within structural limits, and arrives at the TAEM interface with the altitude and range to the runway necessary for a landing. This is accomplished by adjusting the orbiter's drag acceleration on its surface using bank commands relative to vehicle velocity. During TAEM, as the name implies, the goal is to manage the orbiter's energy while the orbiter travels along the heading alignment cylinder, which lines up the vehicle on the runway centerline.

Guidance performs different tasks during the entry, TAEM and approach and landings subphases. During the entry subphase, guidance attempts to keep the orbiter on a trajectory that provides protection against overheating, overdynamic pressure and excessive normal acceleration limits. To do this, it sends commands to flight control to guide the orbiter through a tight corridor limited on one side by altitude and velocity requirements for ranging and orbiter control and on the other side by thermal contraints. Ranging is accomplished by adjusting drag acceleration to velocity so that the orbiter stays in that corridor. Drag acceleration can be adjusted primarily in two ways,d by modifying the angle of attack, which changes the orbiter's cross sectional area with respect to the airstream, or by adjusting the orbiter's bank angle, which affects lift and thus the orbiter's sink rate into denser atmosphere, which in turn affects drag. Using angle of attack as the primary means of controlling drag results in faster energy dissipation with a steeper trajectory but violates the thermal constraint on the orbiter's bank angle is used as the primary method of controlling drag, and thus ranging, during this phase. Increasing the roll angle decreases the vertical component of lift, causing a higher sink rate. Increasing the roll rate raises the surface temperature of the orbiter, but not nearly as drastically as does an equal angle of attack command. The orbiter's angle of attack is kept at a high value (40 degrees) during most of this phase to protect the upper surfaces from extreme heat. It is modulated at certain times to "tweak" the system and is ramped down to a new value at the end of this phase for orbiter controllability. Using bank angle to adjust drag acceleration causes the orbiter to turn off course. Therefore, at times, the orbiter must be rolled back toward the runway. This is called a roll reversal and commanded as a function of azimuth error from the runway. The ground track during this phase, then, results in a series of S-turns.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:09 am

You know at this time I am surprised at the national media.

Last time a shuttle went down they had three days of 24 hour coverage on it.

I was pleasantly surprised to turn on the TV when I woke up this afternoon as see only regular programing rather then "special coverage"
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
trnswrld
Posts: 1373
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 2:19 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:16 am

I have a question. As the space shuttle lifts off from the pad there are many cameras looking at the spacecraft. As we know they have incredible zoom and detail capabilities and watch it probably until it is lost under the horizon. Now I am no NASA expert or photography expert, but I am willing to bet there were cameras looking at the spacecraft as it was coming in. I am not talking about the footage we have been seeing all morning, but footage that can show the aircraft with incredible detail and possibly explain exactly what happened during the break up. If they were using satellites to inspect the wing of Columbia in space why wouldnt they be watching it during re-entry? If they have footage im sure it wouldnt be released to us anytime soon if at all. Does anyone else have any input on this?
 
lehpron
Posts: 6846
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:42 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:28 am

I thought NASA was reporting that the SS broke apart at 12,500mph, close to Mach 18? According to that one NASA guy with the lgt.blue shirt: M18.2.

In any case I may have a theory as to what happened, you might have thought similarly:

Those tiles that fell off were at critical areas that over heated unnecessarily during re-entry. That concentrated heat spread quickly until a point where a domino-effect traveled across the underside of the SS ripping off another few more tiles (indicated by the last sensor reading of high-temperature) which lead to a wing-fuselage puncture due to re-entry heat friction (indicated by sudden sensor tire-pressure drop, i.e. that tire popped and melted real fast). The SS is made up of ceramic heat tiles but its frame and skin are of aluminum, which has a melting point of 1200F, way lower than the friction temp of about 3000F. It would have taken less than a minute to melt a hole through the quarter inch skin, which may have caused the SS to depressurize and suddenly veer to one side due to turbulence around the growing hole in the wheel well.

Basically the Shuttle exploded due to depressurization, like the Comet, except the structural failure was caused by heat stress from by the leak that ensued after the tiles fell off before the shuttle went into orbit. Unlike airliner crashes, since it was going really fast, I think it'd be rather difficult to figure out what happened as smaller parts may have incinerated during decent.

I don't know if the SS had a black box on board; as I understand it, they are designed to withstand jet fuel burns; I am pretty sure the re-entry heat was hotter than that by 25-50%. As of aerodynamic stress, I think they might have given the debris a good violent spin all the way down. Whether a black box could have survived or not, I donno.

Just my 2 cents, may God be with those astronauts.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
dahawaiian
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 12:51 pm

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:40 am

My Aunt in South Lake, Texas heard the explosions overhead this morning. It seems like the explosion was heard by the entire state of Texas and surrounding states. The debris field looks like it spans across a third of the US.
I wonder if NASA will opt to land future space flights at Edwards AFB since debris would likely only hit the ocean and not people and property down below like what happened today. They like to land in Florida to save the cost of transporting the Orbiter piggy-back on a 747 back to the Kennedy Space Center.
Endeavor was built after Challenger exploded, so that leaves NASA now with the Discovery, Atlantis and Endeavor. I think NASA needs a fourth orbiter to maintain a steady presence in space. It is safe to say that something new will be coming in a few years.
At the Nasa.gov website, it reads "All debris is United States Government property and is critical to the investigation of the shuttle accident. Any and all debris from the accident is to be left alone and reported to Government authorities. Unauthorized persons found in possession of accident debris will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law." So those E-bay morons are in for a treat if they try to sell anything.
 
jhooper
Posts: 5561
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:46 am


You know at this time I am surprised at the national media.
Last time a shuttle went down they had three days of 24 hour coverage on it.
I was pleasantly surprised to turn on the TV when I woke up this afternoon as see only regular programing rather then "special coverage"


CNN and Fox have been covering it nonstop, and local Houston stations have had extensive coverage.

Lehpron,

Your theory may be at least partially correct, but no theory can be formed without due examination of the evidence. Will the recovery efforts yield enough of the vehicle to tell for sure? That remains to be seen, but I have confidence that NASA will be able to use what they have to draw meaningful conclusions. They'll be able to analyze the video and identify each piece as it breaks apart, as each piece and the way it separated from the structure tells its own story. I think we can obviously see in the video that aerodynamic stresses broke the vehicle apart, but what causes that could be a number of things. The heat tiles need to be closely examined along with the other evidence. The shuttle has no "black box" per se, but voice and telemetry data are recieved in the MOCR in Houston. They'll find the cause, and fly again.

Jeremy Hooper
Houston, TX

Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
737heavy
Posts: 545
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 9:05 pm

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:46 am

Have you seen how much Columbia stuff has been put on eBay and how much has been bought instantly? eBay should force them to hold off for some time.

Regards
 
desert_dweller
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 1:11 pm

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:46 am

did anyone see the footage from the launch earlier this month? they showed where the piece fell off the wing... nasa was aware of this but didnt consider it significant enough for a safety concern. and now they are saying they will investigate that to check if it was the cause. i dont get it... if they see a possible threat from a problem with the shuttle, shouldnt they take all possible precautions?
 
desert_dweller
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 1:11 pm

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:49 am

"Have you seen how much Columbia stuff has been put on eBay and how much has been bought instantly? eBay should force them to hold off for some time."

why?? its like saying why did they sell american flags on 9/11...
 
coboeing777
Posts: 677
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2001 10:21 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:51 am

<

yeah, but they didnt discover the problem till the shuttle was already in orbit, and they have no means to repair a misisng tile. What good would have that done? If that turns out to be the cause..and thats a BIG IF...then I'd think the only difference we'd have right now is the date this accident occurred.
 
POSITIVE RATE
Posts: 2121
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 11:31 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:54 am

The shuttle will fly again, and i think it will will much sooner than shuttles started flying again after Challenger. Remember there is the International Space Station in orbit which has cost Billions of $$$$ to construct and indeed it is only about half complete. NASA cannot simply abandon this station so their only option is to fix the problem with the shuttle and get it flying again. The ISS is very dependant on the shuttle and for this reason the shuttle MUST and WILL fly again. RIP the crew of Columbia she was a good ship!
 
desert_dweller
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 1:11 pm

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:55 am

they can't repair it in space? there must be something they can do. i mean lets say something worse had happened... they wouldnt attempt to bring it back to the ground with a physical problem.
 
coboeing777
Posts: 677
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2001 10:21 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 11:04 am

NASA said that losing a tile or two is not such a big deal. They also said that piece that fell off the fuel tank/rocket booster and apparantly struck the left wing was made of foam. I'm no rocket scientist myself, but the engineers said that such a piece was not threat to the safetly of the shuttle. Maybe that will turn out to be wrong...but that remains to be seen....
 
JBirdAV8r
Posts: 3461
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 4:44 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 11:06 am

But does the airstrip have an airport code i.e KCLE or something like that?

Yes. NASA Shuttle Landing Facility's identifier is X68.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
JBirdAV8r
Posts: 3461
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 4:44 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 11:11 am

COboeing777,
Anything can become lethal at those speeds. Look at tornado damage, for example. A piece of straw can be driven through the side of a house.

Desert_dweller,
Replacing the tiles is a huge undertaking that takes many man-hours. Unfortunately, there are currently no means to repair tiles on the Shuttle while on orbit.
I believe the brittleness of Shuttle tiles was a big reason they replaced many of the LRSI tiles with FRSI and AFRSI (the "blankets")
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
rkmcswain
Posts: 206
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2000 10:35 pm

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 11:16 am

Thank you UAL747 for getting the altitude and speed correct. Too many 1,200 MPH posts before....  Yeah sure



BA DC-10, the concorde goes 4200 MPH?



...and a final note. As late at 11:15EST, FOX News was reporting (on the bottom ticker) that contact was lost with the shuttle while it was at an altitude of 200,000 MILES. That's a heck of an orbit  Insane That "Shepard" guy on FOX should have just quit talking. He was making a fool of himself this afternoon.

 
coboeing777
Posts: 677
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2001 10:21 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 11:22 am

JB, as an airplane mechanic I am very well aware of what the slightest bit of damage can do to an aircraft. And the aircraft I am used to don't even break the sound barrier, yet alone go MACH 18 or more! I guess I should have added a bit more to my previous post. I was trying to point out the reasons why NASA didnt scrap the misson even though in hindsight maybe they should have. But at this point who really knows, everything is just speculation. I'm not sure what speed the shuttle is at when its climbing up into orbit but it sure is fast and even something as "soft" as a piece of foam could do some serious damage. Perhaps damage that isnt even visible to the naked eye and only apparant when some sort of stress is applied to it(such as a re-entry to the earth's atmosphere).Just look at the damage hail and birdstrikes can do, and these things occur at much slower speeds than the shuttle does.

Anyhow, I guess we'll find out in due time I hope...let's just remember the reality here...7 lives have been lost.
 
JBirdAV8r
Posts: 3461
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 4:44 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 11:24 am

FOXNews seems to be horrible about aerospace accidents in general. And Sheppard Smith is a moron, IMHO.

Miles O'Brien has been doing an admirable job. I think he's a private pilot himself, and he's been doing a very respectable job with all this information.

(He's on CNN, by the way)

CNN has had only one or two morons on all day long; one of which I remember saying that the Space Shuttle Main Engine hasn't had a redesign in forty years.

Moron.

(FYI, numerous modifications were made to the SSME's after Challenger, and they weren't even a contributing cause! They are CONTINUALLY upgraded.)
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
BR715-A1-30
Posts: 6525
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 9:30 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 11:31 am

This kid I live next to was joking about it. He said he found a screw in the ballfield woods. He wants Discovery to crash into his house. I told him he was a sick son of a bitch and that 7 very good people died today that did not have to. That made me mad that he said that. May the astronauts rest in peace, and may the families burn this kid's house down.  Sad
Puhdiddle
 
JBirdAV8r
Posts: 3461
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 4:44 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 11:35 am

COBoeing777,

Sorry if I sounded rude to you...didn't mean to!  Nuts

It will be very interesting to see what happens over the coming months.

With sadness from Florida,
JBirdAV8r

It truly feels like the Shuttle was one of Florida's own. It feels like the passing of a close relatives. I stood outside to hear the double sonic boom that never came this morning.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
Westjet_737
Posts: 845
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 8:42 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 11:45 am

I am absolutly shocked...
I have always been very interested in the space program and I try to follow its happenings as much as I can.

I was born after Challenger so this is my first live introduction to space tragedy. Horiffic.
My thoughts and prayers are for the fallen crew and thair family...
May our fallen space heros rest in peace..

I just want to so a small bit of specualting here (I hope it is okay, I apologise if it is not).

What if that piece of debris did do a fair bit of damage to the shuttle? Damage that could not be repaired in orbit. Would they want to make us panic by telling us? (Im not trying to make NASA look evil, If this is thie case it is IMHO they did the right thing)

From what I learned there was no canadarm on this flight, it was equipped instead with a science lab in the cargo bay. Mabye there is no possible way to leave the spacecraft with this attached? That would make any sort of rescue almost impossible. They would not have enough fuel to get to the space station to live their temporarily until another shuttle or multiple soyuz crafts. So... they collectivly decided that it was better to try and reenter with the damaged ship than to risk the lives of another shuttle crew. (And if they made it back with the damaged ship...)

Only time will tell... but for now we must continue to remember the fallen...

Apollo 1...

From the left, astronauts Roger Chaffee, Edward H. White II and Virgil I. (Gus) Grissom. (man on the left was not on flight)



STS-51L (Challenger)...

Francis R. Scobee, Michael J. Smith , Judith A. Resnik, Ellison S. Onizuka, Ronald E. McNair, Gregory B. Jarvis, and Sharon Christa McAuliffe. (Not in order of photo)



STS-107 (Columbia)...

Seated in front are astronauts Rick D. Husband (left), mission commander; Kalpana Chawla, mission specialist; and William C. McCool, pilot. Standing are (from the left) astronauts David M. Brown, Laurel B. Clark, and Michael P. Anderson, all mission specialists; and Ilan Ramon, payload specialist representing the Israeli Space Agency.











 
elwood64151
Posts: 2410
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2002 10:22 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 12:54 pm

"safest launch vehicle in the world."

what are u talking about??? look at the ratio of space shuttle flights to other modes of transport.


The Shuttle's overall rating of 113 launches with only two catastrophic incidents is remarkably better than any other space-launch vehicle I know of (there may be a few that beat it, but they would be more recent ships with fewer overall launches).

The post was intended to show that the Shuttles are the safest form of transit into space, not the safest form of transportation.

The tenor of some posts has become uproariously demeaning. Let's remember that we're all adults (okay, there are a few exceptions in their teens), and that we should all respect one another, regardless of what we think about the statement. People learn more through positive statements than through negative ones.

"the USA is the only country possible of shooting anything that high down"

So the USA is capable of shooting down an aircraft travelling at 3 times the speed of concorde and 200,000 feet high?? hummmm


BA DC 10:

Yes, the US can shoot down something moving at 12500 miles per hour and at an altitude of 39.4195 miles. We proved this this past fall when we shot down three MIRVs (Multiple Independent Re-entry Vehicles) in tests last year. We hit three times and missed two.

JBirdAV8r:

All news media outlets hire morons as "experts", even and especially CNN (you should see who they invite to talk about military hardware! ugh!). FNC has had people from NASA, former astronauts, and self-proclaimed experts who really know nothing. Just like CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, and NBC. News media always need experts on a moment's notice during breaking news, so they hire someone with a name, title, or degree, who may not actually know anything at all.

And Shepperd Smith isn't a moron. I'd agree with you if you said he's an arrogant SOB, but he's not stupid. That "200,000 miles" (I saw it, too, and groaned!) was typed in by a staff flunky or an intern, not him.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
Lt-AWACS
Posts: 2120
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2002 2:40 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 1:23 pm

another update. I just spoke with my uncle in Lufkin (which is as twin city really with Nacogdoches about 18-20 miles north of Lufkin) He said there is some debris in Lufkin and 50-75 FBI agents have set up shop DT by the bank and city hall. Big vans and trucks from Barksdale AFB, in Shreveport have set up at the Expo center as well, and 40 odd DPS troopers are at the DPS HQs in LUfkin.

Reports locally are that body parts have been found East of Nacogdoches near Hemphill, including a charred arm with a wedding band on it. Helmets and patches have been found as well.

Teams from NASA in Houston have driven up to the area to retrieve parts and bodies. Very sad.
My cousin in Nacogdoches says all the National media is in town and there are no hotels in Nacogdoches or Lufkin (both cities of 30,000 each).

For those that haven't been to the Area there are 4 national forests, the Big Thicket National Preserve, Sam Rayburn Lake, and Toledo Bend Lake. The piney woods are very very thick.

I sadly think it will take years to find all the parts out in the woods and the lakes of East Texas.

Being from Houston and having some college friends and a relative that works at JSC these astronauts always seem like family, and it is a sad day for all. God bless.

Ciao,
Lt-AWACS, Hail Columbia
Io voglio fica ogni giorni da mia bella moglie!
 
FredT
Posts: 2166
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 9:51 pm

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 1:23 pm

A bloke who'd been watching the reentry on the NASA TV channel reported that they'd had sensors in the left wing drop offline one after another. Tire pressure indicators and what not.

IF that is true, it certainly sounds like something was burning through that wing - right at the point in the reentry where the temperature is the highest.

They knew the risks and accepted them, as other people all over the world do every day. However, it doesn't change the fact that there are seven people dead who could have been alive. Seven families, seven groups of friends who mourn their losses - which could right now have been celebrating the safe return of their loved ones.

But the seven in the shuttle were privileged to die doing something useful, something they believed in. Their lives were not lost in vain, and I don't think they would have regretted anything today, had they been able to.

Cheers,
Fred
I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
 
767ALLTHEWAY
Posts: 636
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 1999 5:37 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 1:26 pm

my deepest sympathies and condolences go out to those aboard and their families. Godbless the crew of the Colubmia STS-107. Rest In Peace forever.
-7 6 7 A L L T H E W A Y
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgement that something else is more important than fear"
 
b757300
Posts: 3914
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:27 pm

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 1:29 pm

The only thing that Fox News still sucks @ is breaking news and analysis. CNN and the networks still beat Fox in that area.

Anyway, has anyone else seen the video where it looks like the shuttle is flying sideways? The video appears to show the shuttle's nose facing away from the camera as it continues to travel from right to left. Somewhere I saw a screen capture of it but I can't find it again.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
j_hallgren
Posts: 1427
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2000 11:48 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:03 pm

Here's a link to the details of the "remains" story...they warn that it's graphic....my thought: Those poor kids! What mental trauma for them....to find that...now Dad will try to sue somebody, I'd guess...

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/state/5084797.htm
COBOL - Not a dead language yet!
 
JBirdAV8r
Posts: 3461
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 4:44 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:39 pm

Elwood,

Then I change my stance: Shepperd Smith is an arrogant SOB moron.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

He's no Uncle Walter, that's for darn sure.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
DeltaBoy777
Posts: 394
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2001 4:22 pm

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:49 pm

Great Job, to all the Dallas/Fort Worth News Stations for covering extensively the severity of this crash.

Special thanks to John Pronk of WFAA Ch. 8 in DFW, for his great coverage and tape of the initial breakup of the Space Shuttle Columbia.

May God be with the families of those lost aboard the Columbia, and the Nations of Israel and the United States of America.

God Bless and take care!!

~DeltaBoy777~
Thanks and Gig Em!
 
IndianGuy
Posts: 3126
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 3:14 pm

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 3:38 pm

One Indian Channel (Aaj Tak), which is going overboard with the Shuttle coverage, had a special report in which they quoted an American expert as saying that the breakup was preceeded by an inflight fire, caused by a malfunctioning dehumidifier system which sent cabin temperatures soaring.

Any confirmation fo this or is it just one of those media gaffes?

-Roy
 
sayem55
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2001 5:17 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 4:08 pm

"...caused by a malfunctioning dehumidifier system which sent cabin temperatures soaring."
I believe it wasn’t working properly even before they left the orbit.
StarFighter
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 4:12 pm

80 degrees F isn't exactly what I would call soaring.

Just speculation at this point.

But based on that speculation I already have my own thoughts on what happened.

But I will keep them to myself for the time being.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
mirrodie
Posts: 6794
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 3:33 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 4:16 pm

My deepest condolences to this WORLD tragedy.

Look at the portrait of our American spirit...a conglomerate of the WORLD'S cultures: American, African American, Asian, Indian, Israeli, Jewish(Resnik), Arab(McAuliff)... Lord only knows what I am missing.

The world mourns again this day.






May their families and all of us find peace.
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
jhooper
Posts: 5561
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 4:32 pm

I still can't believe what has happened. Seven brave men and women have given their lives in service to humanity. After watching all the news I can handle, I looked through my video library and watched a couple of my archived tapes, "Hail Columbia", as well as ABC's coverage of the 1st landing of the Space Shuttle Columbia in 1981. I wonder whether people remember what the Columbia represented to our progress in space as well as our national psyche. Indeed, over 200,000 people gathered in a California desert in 1981 to watch the landing of STS-1 commanded by John Young and piloted by Robert Crippen. Columbia was the first true spaceship, and now she and her crew are gone forever....  Crying
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
cloudy
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 4:34 pm

As for the ISS - the Columbia was not capable of going up to the ISS with a significant payload. It could carry a crew and a little bit of stuff up there, but not the huge things like whole labs that Discovery, Atlantis and Endeavor can carry. The reason for this is that Columbia was a bit 'overbuilt' because it was the first orbiter. The ISS's orbit is hard to reach from Kennedy Space Center, its inclination was made large to accommodate the Russians (very roughly, this is how inclined an orbit with respect to the equator, or how far north and south it goes in orbit. Zero degrees is an equatorial orbit. 90 is a polar orbit, I believe). The Russians find it easier to launch to these kinds of orbits since their launch sites are further north. There is also a scientific bonus - a high inclination orbit means the station passes over a lot more of the Earth's surface.

Resupply can be taken care of by Russian Progress freighters for the time view. Don't know about reboost, can the Progress provide enough reboost?(ISS slowly looses altitude due to drag from the tiny, tiny bit of altitude up there. You need to apply thrust from time to time to counter this. This thrust is called reboost.) The crew does have a Russian Soyuz docked there that they can return in at any time. These spacecraft are replaced every 6 months - so that is how people are going to have to go up and back until the orbiters can be launched again. The trouble is that the Progress is an up only vehicle. It can't take anything back to Earth. The shuttle orbiter is the only vehicle in the world that can take a significant mass back to earth from space. How much ISS science depends on this capability? I haven't heard anything about this....

Columbia was used to take care of Hubble, do spacelab missions, and other shuttle unique stuff. The loss of the Columbia is not in and of itself a problem for the ISS program, but it could be fatal to any other program that uses shuttle-unique capabilities since ISS will have first priority. Likely, all non-ISS missions except Hubble servicing will be scrapped or postponed as much as necessary. If this is done, the ISS schedule can be maintained, or so I have heard from several sources.

The need for the shuttle for non-ISS missions has been reduced over the last decade. The Hubble is due to be replaced by the next generation space telescope - which will not be accessible for shuttle servicing. Spacelab's mission will likely be taken over by the space station over time. The largest of the new EELV's from Boeing and Delta exceed the shuttle's payload capability.

As to ISS construction - this cannot continue without the shuttle. All the US components and even many non US components can ONLY be launched by the space shuttle since their design precludes the use of any other vehicle. The ISS was designed with the assumption that the shuttle would be continually available - even some components not flown up by the shuttle may require shuttle unique services on orbit occasionaly. In the long term, if you abandon the shuttle, you have to abandon the ISS program. Technically, they are joined at the hip.

BOTTOM LINE...the ISS construction and maybe some of the limited science ISS does now is on hold for as long as it takes to return the shuttles to flight. The shuttles must return to flight eventually for the ISS to survive as a program. There may be some Shuttle-dependent, non-ISS projects that need to be scrapped due to the prioritization of ISS for shuttle access. But, as mentioned above, these kinds of programs are fewer and smaller than they used to be. The ISS astronauts are safe. If and when the shuttles fly again, the normal ISS construction schedule can probably resume without a great deal of additional stress on the program.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 4:49 pm

I can only hope that the latest theories, point to a "smoking gun" that will allow the other shuttles to fly.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
flyboy36y
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 1:45 pm

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 5:20 pm

I am profoundly saddened by this tradgedy. In 2001 we were hit with two major tragedies (AA587 and 9/11), in 2002 we were lucky not to have anything fall on the US, but our neigbors the Australlians and the Russians suffered. In 2003 we suffer again. I hate those days that you know whill become "where where you..." days. Today feels like that kinda day. February 1st, 2003

I think this picture of "debris" says it all:


 
POSITIVE RATE
Posts: 2121
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 11:31 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 5:26 pm

This piece of insulation they keep referring to that broke off from the external fuel tank and impacted the left wing of the orbiter- hasn't that happened before on previous missions with no ill effects??? Also if the leading edge of the left wing was damaged wouldn't there have been some kind of indication of this during climbout?? The heat buildup in the port wing suggests a possible tile failure and if that part of the wing itself is recovered should show signs of vaporisation if that's the case.
 
cloudy
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 5:57 pm

And has been mentioned before, ice has broken off the ET with no ill effects. Ice is much more dense than this stuff - ET insulation is like styrofoam. Don't know if the ice hit the wing, however....

Much is being made of the debris that has been found, but there is less recoverable debris in this mishap then in other aerospace accidents due to the altitude and speed the event occurred. Yet there is a heck of allot more data - shuttle telemetry gives mission control allot more info than a "black box" normally gives to air accident investigators. The telemetry may be more important in this case.

If the worse case happens and a 2-3 year fleet grounding is needed, one good thing that may result (this is rank speculation) is a new heat-shield system. The shuttle heat shield is a big pain to maintain, has safety issues, as is heavier than it needs to be. These problems were not expected when the shuttle was first designed. The troublesome tiles are a huge factor in the unexpectedly long turnaround time needed between shuttle flights.

Allot of research has been done in this area. There have been some incredible advances in materials in the last 25 years. It would not only improve safety. It could also save a great deal of cost and weight, and allow a shorter turnaround time between launches. The technology may even be transferable to a next-generation craft.
 
JBirdAV8r
Posts: 3461
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 4:44 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 6:11 pm

Reminds me of the old Wendy's commercial.

WHERE'S THE BEEF(money)?!?

Technology for such a drastic change exists and has for quite awhile, but it is entirely TOO expensive for NASA to consider, be it in the interest of safety or not.

I know quite a lot of the old LRSI tiles on Columbia were replaced with AFRSI (namely the tail and almost all of the area immediately under the payload bay doors). The HRSI tiles on the belly, however, are quite a massive undertaking, and would be hard to change without completely building a new vehicle. It just isn't economical (duh...in space flight, what really is?)

Odd, too, that this orbiter was the one used for SILTS research...that's why it has the "bulge" on the tail while the other Orbiters lack it.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
cloudy
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 6:21 pm

Jbird,

I would imagine more money would be available following this tragedy, just as there was after the Challenger. But I could be wrong.

And you seem to know more about the heat shield issue than I do so I'll have to defer to you.
 
Trident
Posts: 477
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2000 4:49 am

RE: Space Shuttle Columbia Crisis

Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:46 pm

The American people, government and NASA must now decide where they want the manned spaceflight programme to go. Do they just want to comtinue using refurbished orbiters for the next twenty years on low earth orbit missions or are they willing to fund a totally new launch vehicle sytem coupled with a far more ambitious programme which will include a return to the moon and a manned mission to Mars.

I think that yesterday's tragedy must focus all Americans on the goals and ambitions of their manned space programme, and whether they are willing to fund it through their taxes.




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