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Rick767
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Is The 7E7 Just A "Boeing 330"?

Sat Feb 08, 2003 4:27 am

I am honestly curious with this new Boeing project and do not wish to start a typical A v B war, please do not start a slanging match.

I am a "Boeing man" myself so to speak and I want to see this new project succeed, but I do have a few reservations and can't help but think that this 7E7 aircraft has already been designed, and flies today as the Airbus A330.

I can't help feeling that 20 years on, this will still be basically a 767. A 767 which flies faster (777 / 744 speeds), and burns a bit less fuel per mile. Kind of like the A330 Airbus made 10 years ago...

In the 5+ years it will take to make this aircraft a reality Airbus can simply strap a couple of more fuel-efficient engines on the A330, fine-tune the aerodynamics a bit and hey presto - they have an aircraft almost as efficient for a fraction of the Research and Development costs Boeing is going to incur with this project.

And the A330 has a common flightdeck and cross-crew commonality with other models. The latest I hear is that Boeing (once again) is going to re-design the flightdeck of the 7E7 to take advantage of new technology. Madness in my opinion.... commonality sells and it is the one reason the A320/A330 is the preferred replacement for my own airlines fleet, rather than the 737NG/757/764.

I do want this project to succeed, but these are my initial thoughts. On the positive side, I agree that Boeing has finally come to terms with what airlines want and I praise them for launching a twinjet 250 seat medium to long rage aircraft.

Please (maturely) discuss the issues I have perceived, I would be interested to hear your thoughts.
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
flyf15
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RE: Is The 7E7 Just A "Boeing 330"?

Sat Feb 08, 2003 4:41 am

The thing I don't understand, is this plane (every time I hear about it) gets bigger and bigger. It now appears to me to be somewhere in between the 767 and 777 in size. How will this be a 757 replacement?
 
kaitak
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RE: Is The 7E7 Just A "Boeing 330"?

Sat Feb 08, 2003 4:43 am

I agree with you very much, Rick. This is what came to my mind.

I saw it as something like a discussion between Boeing and airlines:

"so, you want a long range twin, something smaller than the 777, but bigger and (particularly) wider than the 767; cockpit commonality, takes most modern freight containers and has a fuselage cross section which allows more flexibility than the 767 . . .

Ah yes, so you'd like us to licence build the A330?"

That may sound like a joke and I don't for a moment want to make fun of your post, which I think is very valid.

The cross section will be of particular interest. I love the 777 and I used to consider the 767 my favourite widebody (before the 777 came along), but the Airbus cross section has always struck me as ideal; many airlines seem to have 7 abreast in the 777's Business Class (one even has eight!), but most airlines have only 6 abreast in the Airbus Business Class (EK is the only exception I can think of). It's an ideal cross section and it's almost impossible for Boeing to design its aircraft without reference to this.

Also, will the new model have any growth (or shrink) potential? A smaller version shouldn't be a problem, as the 763 will be old hat by then and the 764 will be, well, about as alive as it is now. But would a stretched 7E7 cause problems for the 772?

I think the big plus for the 7E7 will be that airlines which operate only the 777 on long haul flights will find a smaller aircraft for thinner routes and if they already operate 737NGs all the better; that said, however, the 332/777 combination is proving increasingly popular - EVA becoming the latest and I'd guess Egyptair will be next.

It sounds like a very interesting aircraft anyway and I hope it comes to fruition.
 
Areopagus
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RE: Is The 7E7 Just A "Boeing 330"?

Sat Feb 08, 2003 5:07 am

In the past, Boeing has been slammed in this forum for being derivative-happy, and now it is getting slammed for starting something new.

I can't help feeling that 20 years on, this will still be basically a 767. A 767 which flies faster (777 / 744 speeds), and burns a bit less fuel per mile. Kind of like the A330 Airbus made 10 years ago...

17% less fuel per mile, and it also eliminates the 767's disadvantage vs. the Airbus, by providing side-by-side LD3s in the cargo hold.

The 330-200 is sized for 293 passengers (according to airliners.net), whereas Boeing is talking about 2 versions of the 7E7 sized for 210 and 250 - more like the A310. It will be smaller and lighter.

In the 5+ years it will take to make this aircraft a reality Airbus can simply strap a couple of more fuel-efficient engines on the A330, fine-tune the aerodynamics a bit and hey presto - they have an aircraft almost as efficient for a fraction of the Research and Development costs Boeing is going to incur with this project.

You could with equal validity apply this statement to the 747 matching the A380.
 
sllevin
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RE: Is The 7E7 Just A "Boeing 330"?

Sat Feb 08, 2003 5:21 am

I think the interesting portion, beyond improved aerodynamics, will be the final range settled on. Specifically, will the 7E7 in fact be practical on shorter hops of say 1800nm -- an area where the A330, with the large structure for nearly 6,000nm range, carries far more "dead" weight than needed.

I'm hoping that Boeing is aiming the 7E7 as a direct competitor not to the A330, but, rather, to the A300-600, an airplane that Airbus has yet to truly update and replace. Such a machine might only be able to do ORD/JFK to Europe, but, OTOH, wouldn't be carrying 20 or 30 tons of airframe to do JFK-LAX or ORD-LAX.

Steve
 
0A340
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RE: Is The 7E7 Just A "Boeing 330"?

Sat Feb 08, 2003 5:42 am

Steve,

this plane exists, and it is called 767-400. Unfortunately, it is the very lack of range/payload capability that has disabled this plane compared to the 332.

The 7E7 will be called upon to replace a line ranging from the 757+ to the 764 capacity-wise and be the prime candidate for the substantial 763ER, A306, A310, 767domestic and 757(?) replacement market today.
Today's 332 is edging at the top of this line - a bit too large for direct 767ER replacement, and a bit too heavy for a triple shrink for direct A306 successor.

There is still lots of water to run through the mills before the 7E7 is finalized. Last time around Boeing designed a new plane, there was a big success; the 777 is recognized for its technical superiority. There is little doubt that the case will be the same with the eventual 7E7.

George




 
Mark_D.
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RE: Is The 7E7 Just A "Boeing 330"?

Sat Feb 08, 2003 6:26 am


Yeah I wish Boeing well with this. If they hit a sweet spot like they did with the 777, they'll have loads of orders to count on --especially since I don't think Airbus is going to launch an A300-600 replacement anytime in the next three or four years or so.

On the other hand it was a bummer that the Sonic Cruiser turned out so heavily vapourware --I'd like to think it wasn't all a lie, right from the start-- but the sooner Boeing cuts metal for the 7E7 the sooner all of that can be put in the past, for everybody.
 
transswede
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RE: Is The 7E7 Just A "Boeing 330"?

Sat Feb 08, 2003 6:29 am

OA340,

The 7E7 is clearly not intended as a 757 replacement of any sort. Looking at the specs, I don't see how the 7E7 realistically could be shrunk smaller than the 767-200.

And as for it being a short-haul contender, I'm starting to wonder about that. Press-releases seem to indicate a very long-range aircraft, 7500-8000 miles. This is even beyond the A330-200. And without building completely separate wings, making an aircraft efficient for both long range and short range is very hard. Airbus tried to sell a A330 series as a short-ranger, but it really needed a new lighter wing to be efficient. No airlines were interested.

It could very well be that Boeing is actually trying to market the 757-300 as the short range 767 replacement, while the 7E7 will actually in reality be a 767-200/300ER replacement.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Is The 7E7 Just A "Boeing 330"?

Sat Feb 08, 2003 7:05 am

I'm starting to think that the idea of a 757NG is now starting to heat up.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
F4N
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RE: Is The 7E7 Just A "Boeing 330"?

Sat Feb 08, 2003 7:14 am

Rick767:

Given the time-frame that Boeing is planning on, it is apparant that 7E7 is not intended to be some sort of "me-too" A330. Although I have been out of product development for some years now, the general intention when launching a new design is to use the competitor's baseline performance as a floor and proceed from there. Anything less is pointless...

Given that 7E7(I'm going to hate typing that as much as I got to hate typing A3XX) is clearly an evolutionary design as opposed to a revolutionary one, Boeing would need to build on the A330 type formula and add value via operating economies, commonality(Boeing will almost certainly family this a/c) and flexibility to preclude any enhancements Airbus may incorporate into A330 to protect marketshare.

My thoughts...

F4N
 
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yyz717
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RE: Is The 7E7 Just A "Boeing 330"?

Sat Feb 08, 2003 7:20 am

Both A & B have not had a new product for the 200-275 seat market for some time. The 757/767 and A300/A310 are getting old.

Maybe in 5 years when airline profits return, the 7E7 will be well timed.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
sllevin
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RE: Is The 7E7 Just A "Boeing 330"?

Sat Feb 08, 2003 7:35 am

I agree that my ideas for a 7E7 are similar to that of the 764. However, a significant drawback that the 764 has had as been the lack of cargo space. And certainly, range has been an issue, right now.

But I believe the 764 is simply ahead if its time. As air traffic ramps up in the next 'upswing' airlines will need to increase capacity. Much of that current capacity is represented in the A321/757/767 fleets -- some of it long range, but much of it not-so-long range. The market potential there is huge, and justifies a new aircraft, especially, as it is, with Airbus simply unable to take on yet another development path to replace the A300. The advantage of the 7E7 will be that it will be designed with current needs in mind -- dual LD-3's, more fleet commonality (i.e., look for a 777 flightdeck), and will have the advantage of another couple of decades of aerodynamic edges. I also suspect that, for example, it will be designed around a generation of engines that will allow larger, ER-powering variants to be mounted (whereas the 764 has essentially "maxed-out" the powerplants that can be hung on it).

In the end, I still believe the A300/DC-10-10 role to be the launch role, with ER's coming out behind that.

Steve
 
brons2
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RE: Is The 7E7 Just A "Boeing 330"?

Sat Feb 08, 2003 7:39 am

I've said it before about this product:

They will need an 'A' market and a 'B' market plane.

The A market plane with lighter weights optimized for shorter trips. This will be the 767/306/310 replacement.

The B market plane will be the one flying the 7500 nm range trips. This will be the A332 competitor.

[Edited 2003-02-07 23:40:08]
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
gigneil
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RE: Is The 7E7 Just A "Boeing 330"?

Sat Feb 08, 2003 7:44 am

I remember reading somewhere that the plane would only need powerplants in the 50,000 lb range.

The Trent 500 is available and ready to go for it.

I'm sure Rolls would also be thrilled to offer the Trent 600 for the ER version.

Or, develop a higher thrust 500 or a lower thrust 600 and cover the whole line.

N
 
BWIA 772
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RE: Is The 7E7 Just A "Boeing 330"?

Sat Feb 08, 2003 9:03 am




Will boeing ever going to seek to have planes with as much commonality like Airbus has the 330/340 family?
Eagles Soar!
 
gigneil
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RE: Is The 7E7 Just A "Boeing 330"?

Sat Feb 08, 2003 9:15 am

Boeing has a plan of some kind called the Boeing Advanced Common Cockpit.

They can make the 717, MD-10, and MD-11 have almost identical cockpit formats, and the 767, 777, and 737NG can be set to have almost identical cockpit formats, and they can change the software so that all of them are as close to each other as possible.

The thing is that US carriers are very disparate about this.

The only people really using the cockpit commonality are people with the MD-10 and MD-11.

I think Continental has their 764s set to "777" mode, as well as their 737NGs.

I think Delta has their 764s on "767" mode, and their 737NGs on "777" mode.

Nobody's really sure what they want.

I bet Southwest has their 737NGs on "737" mode but I'm not sure.

N
 
sllevin
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RE: Is The 7E7 Just A "Boeing 330"?

Sat Feb 08, 2003 9:51 am

Neil --

I've always heard that Southwest kept cockpit configs in the -200 mode for commonality -- so even if you had EFIS it displayed everything in 'steam gauge' mode....

'Course, that'd be fine for me.  Smile

Steve
 
Klaus
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RE: Is The 7E7 Just A "Boeing 330"?

Sat Feb 08, 2003 10:34 am

I guess we´ll indeed see something vaguely A300-like, just heavily modernized.

I whish Boeing luck, their technical staff really deserves a real chance after their management fleeing the scene and mucking up the VLA and SC campaigns...


Another point, however, would be whether Airbus would really make good on their reported threat of countering any Boeing attempt at an A300 rival. With their building experience on technologies like GLARE and other composites as well as the chance to keep some commonality with the 330/340 family they could have a head start, there. But then again, maybe not. And another new type might really be too much...

I´d still expect some public response in the near future. Even if it´s just a refusal of the challenge...  Wink/being sarcastic
 
SafetyDude
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RE: Is The 7E7 Just A "Boeing 330"?

Sat Feb 08, 2003 11:27 am

Could someone explain what the 7E7 is? I have not been following up on aviation news lately...
 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
Klaus
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SafetyDude

Sat Feb 08, 2003 11:39 am

 
gigneil
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RE: Is The 7E7 Just A "Boeing 330"?

Sat Feb 08, 2003 11:42 am

Steve-

That's what I figured, re: WN and the 737 cockpit style.

In a way, the Boeing way has been good to past Boeing carriers, which is what they want I'd presume.

The Airbus way is most effective overall, it doesn't think about the past but keeps everyone that buys moving forward.

They both have their advantages, clearly.

N
 
AApilot2b
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RE: Is The 7E7 Just A "Boeing 330"?

Sat Feb 08, 2003 5:23 pm

So what if it is similar in range, capacity, etc... as the A330! It certainly isn't wrong for Boeing to build a competing design.

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