Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Guest

Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:55 am

Here is an interesting article from the Moscow Times:

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2003/02/14/042.html

SHORT EXCERPT:

Safety Board Says Il-86 Unsafe

By Lyuba Pronina
Staff Writer

The Ilyushin-86 could soon be grounded over fears that it is unsafe, a move that would cost airlines millions of dollars in losses and wreak havoc on the peak summer tourist season.

The State Civil Aviation Service, which certifies planes for commercial use, must decide Friday whether to let the Il-86 fly after the Interstate Aviation Committee, or MAK, recommended suspending the plane earlier this week.


What do you think?
 
tu144d
Posts: 208
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 11:39 pm

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:10 pm

What?? This is ridiculous. The Il-86 is probably the safest Russian airliner in service. If the Il-86 is bad, what about the Tu-154?

-Vik-
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:13 pm

The Il-86 is probably the safest Russian airliner in service

Is that really saying all that much?  Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Guest

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:29 pm

Yeah it is ConcordeBoy.....lets just say it is a hell of a lot safer than the aircraft after which you take your name....Il-86s done seem to have a problem of losing tail fragments in-flight, tyres bursting on take-off and crashing into hotels.  Laugh out loud

I'll write something more serious on this later.
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:40 pm

First off... who ever said anything about Concorde being safer than other aircraft?
(answer: plenty of people, none of whom understand simple statistics  Laugh out loud)

Secondly, my question to you earlier was pure rhetoric... but I guess it sorta flew over your head. No worries  Big grin
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
delta-flyer
Posts: 2635
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2001 9:47 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:42 pm

I couldn't help snickering at your comment, Aviatsiya....
Last week I had the pleasure of listening to a prominent aviation journalist, who was asked if he would fly on a Russian plane. His anwer was an emphatic no.

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
Guest

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 1:25 pm

I heard that HTML works now, so I'm reposting the link for everyone's convenience:

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2003/02/14/042.html
 
aviasian
Posts: 1244
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 8:11 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 1:32 pm

Delta-flyer : Note that the speaker mentioned the very generic "Russian plane", not the IL-86.

Everyone has his/her preference and degree of tolerance, and while I am suicidal, rightly or wrongly, the only Russian plane I am not confident of flying in is the TU-134. But then again, I don't know much about Russian airplanes and their safety statistics.

I have flown on TU-154, IL-18, IL-62 and IL-96-300 . . . and enjoyed all these flights. The IL-62 and the IL-96-300 gave me great confidence.

I would still probably like to try an IL-86 once, but the nearest one operating regularly is that of China Xinjiang Airlines between Beijing and Urumqi.

Perhaps instead of bashing one another, or aircraft types without basis, how about discussing which Russian airliner you would fly or would love to at least try once.

KC Sim
Bangkok
 
desert_dweller
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 1:11 pm

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 1:39 pm

What are the major airlines that still use this aircraft today?
 
aviasian
Posts: 1244
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 8:11 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 1:42 pm

Siberia Airlines (E3) and Aeroflot (SU) have recently operated their IL-86s through BKK. E3 operated it as a charter while SU operated it as a substitute for the IL-96.

KC Sim
BKK
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 2:08 pm

Perhaps instead of bashing one another, or aircraft types without basis, how about discussing which Russian airliner you would fly or would love to at least try once.

How about an Aeroflot 777!  Big grin Thats the closest I would get to flying on a Russian aircraft.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
Ilyushin96M
Posts: 2506
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 1999 3:15 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 2:56 pm

I wonder what the facts behind this news blip are? It's funny that the IL-86 would be deemed unsafe after 23 years in service, and only one accident involving fatalities.

BTW, it's my opinion that any person who says Russian aircraft are unsafe and wouldn't fly in them is ignorant and a victim of propaganda. It's been discussed to death on these forums that Russian aircraft, while inefficient and loud, are quite safe, and even tougher than their Western counterparts.
 
Guest

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 3:07 pm

"I wonder what the facts behind this news blip are?"

I only included a short excerpt in my post due to copyright restrictions. The complete Moscow Times article has lots of additional information. Its address is:

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2003/02/14/042.html

(unfortunately, I can't get the link to appear as hypertext because a.net is still having HTML problems, so you'll have to cut and paste it into your address bar)

[Edited 2003-02-14 07:09:00]
 
Guest

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 3:12 pm

But, then again, even the article doesn't make it clear exactly why the plane has now been deemed unsafe. Maybe that's what you were referring to, Ilyushin96M?

[Edited 2003-02-14 07:14:15]
 
Ilyushin96M
Posts: 2506
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 1999 3:15 am

Here's The Entire Article...

Fri Feb 14, 2003 3:13 pm

Friday, Feb. 14, 2003. Page 5

Safety Board Says Il-86 Unsafe

By Lyuba Pronina
Staff Writer

AP

No Ilyushin-86 had ever crashed until Pulkovo Airline's plane went down last year.

The Ilyushin-86 could soon be grounded over fears that it is unsafe, a move that would cost airlines millions of dollars in losses and wreak havoc on the peak summer tourist season.

The State Civil Aviation Service, which certifies planes for commercial use, must decide Friday whether to let the Il-86 fly after the Interstate Aviation Committee, or MAK, recommended suspending the plane earlier this week.

MAK -- an aviation regulatory body for the Commonwealth of Independent States -- ruled Wednesday that the crash of a Pulkovo Airlines Il-86 shortly after takeoff from Sheremetyevo Airport on July 28 may have been due to technical malfunction, Oleg Yermolov, MAK's deputy director, said Thursday.

The crash -- which resulted in the deaths of 14 of the 16 crew -- was the first ever in the Il-86's 20-year history. No passengers were aboard.

MAK's decisions usually serve as the basis for certification rulings by the State Civil Aviation Service.

However, all but one representative of the 12-member MAK commission -- Valery Luchinin, deputy head of the State Civil Aviation Service's flight safety department -- said the crash was due to crew error.

Yermolov said MAK could not ignore Luchinin's opinion but that the State Civil Aviation Service must decide whether to ground the Il-86. He added, though, that another investigation has been ordered and it could take a month or more to complete.

State Civil Aviation Service officials, including Luchinin, said they do not understand MAK's decision and will hold a "serious" meeting Friday afternoon that is to involve representatives from the Ilyushin Design Bureau, airlines operating Il-86 and the Russian Aviation and Space Agency, as well as MAK.

"Their [MAK's] decision came as a total surprise for us," Vladimir Rudakov, deputy head of the State Civil Aviation Service, said Thursday. "The Il-86 is the safest aircraft, and we don't see any reason why it should be suspended."

Rudakov said Luchinin had come to his conclusion in the hopes of eliminating some of the Il-86s shortcomings but did not want the craft suspended. He said Friday's meeting will come up with "some decision" and did not rule out that the aircraft could be suspended.

A source in the State Civil Aviation Service said that if the service does not ban the Il-86 it will be acting against the law and will be held responsible if the craft crashes again.

Rudakov said the State Civil Aviation Service could not make a decision until it saw the resolution of MAK's investigation.

With the flight recorders severely damaged, the exact reason of the crash has not been identified and likely will never be, Rudakov said. After the crash, the horizontal stabilizer -- thought to have malfunctioned -- was checked on all the airplanes and performed normally, he said.

Russian carriers operate 41 Il-86s with a dozen more flying in other CIS states. The craft was considered the most reliable plane in service until the crash. Ilyushin was not available for comment.

Airlines operating the craft lambasted MAK's decision and said they hope the Il-86 will not be banned.

No. 2 airline Sibir, which operates 14 Il-86s, said the ban would entail millions of dollars in losses.

"This is one of the safest aircraft in the world. ... MAK's decision is not adequate and is unlikely to be supported by the State Civil Aviation Service," said Mikhail Koshman, Sibir's deputy general director. If the Il-86 is banned "the state should allow the import of foreign craft."

The Il-86 is irreplaceable for Russian airlines, said Svetlana Volodina, spokeswoman for Boris Abramovich, general director of No. 4 KrasAir, which operates four Il-86.

Two Tu-154s would have to be used to make up for one Il-86, which would hit operational costs and ticket prices, she said. With tickets sold in advance and summer schedules planned, the flight program would be disrupted and passengers would face delays.

------------

Banning the IL-86 would be as stupid as banning the MD-80, if indeed there was a horizontol stabiliser malfunction. This sounds like alot of senseless bickering to me.
 
afay1
Posts: 1206
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 2:37 pm

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 3:18 pm

I have a bunch of colleagues flying to Egypt on a charter IL-86 tommorrow who are now really looking forward to their flight due to this morning's article. For more fun on Russian aircraft see https://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1024228/ later....

 
Guest

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 3:27 pm

Last week I had the pleasure of listening to a prominent aviation journalist, who was asked if he would fly on a Russian plane. His anwer was an emphatic no.

Well 2 words in your sentence show to me that the person knows nothing on what he says. Those words: aviation journalist

It would be great to get this "cigarette butt of life" (that is what journos are) here on these forums to discuss why he wouldn't fly on a "Russian aircraft". Then we would really see if he knew what he was talking about.

Delta-Flyer, you got his name by any chance? Then we will know who not to read in the future.  Laugh out loud

Frankly, I don't see any ban on the Il-86. It isn't an "old" design; the airframes are still reasonably young; the airlines which operate them (for the most part) have impeccable maintenance procedures in place.

Also what would replace them? There are only 2 choices available:

1) Il-96
2) Importation of foreign aircraft

Neither case is viable. In the case of the Il-96, there still is no firm leasing available, even though IFC is making inroads in that area. In the case of importation of aircraft, that would mean a huge policy change on the part of the federal government (it won't happen, at least in the medium term). As I mentioned on Aviatsiya, if the ban does come into place, we can see Armavia ordering 767s (by this I mean, Russian airlines will take stakes in other CIS airlines, with that CIS airline ordering Airbus/Boeing aircraft, and operated on some of the "owner" airlines' routes).

KC, there are really only 2 Russian aircraft which I would not fly on; those being the An-8 and Mi-6. Both are very old designs and have been banned from civil operations in Russia (although some military operations still take place with the Russian Air Force, particularly with the Mi-6). Other than that, I would have no hesitation in flying any other aircraft. --- Also, you mentioned Siberia Airlines; what you meant was Domodedovo Airlines Il-96-300, although you did have the E3 code correct  Wink/being sarcastic

JSC, here's 40 cents............
 
VonRichtofen
Posts: 4296
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2000 3:10 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 3:36 pm

Well I don't know about the safety of Russian Aircraft, but what about their pilots? Look at this photo:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sam Chui



There's no way they knew they were going to make it, they were totally taking a chance.
 
Amir
Posts: 1224
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 1999 8:56 pm

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 3:54 pm

Hi to all

again it seems we are having a 'russian planes good or not' thread!

The main issue with russian aviation is not the plane or planes itself, it is rather sometimes bad maintanace and sometimes bad pilot training. Both might affect the process of flying but this doesn't mean that the planes as such are unsafe.

What is behind this issue of the Department obviously trying to ban the IL-86? It might even be a case where some people are trying to materialize some deals with let's see western built aircraft..... nothing is impossible especially in russia.

Anyhow i do wish to see the IL-86 around for some time as to fly with it!

Brgds
Amir
 
saab2000
Posts: 1253
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:19 pm

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:02 pm

VonRichthofen: That is one helluva photo!!! It may in fact, be the most spectacular I have seen posted here. I once witnessed a similar take-off of an IL-86 from RWY 28 in ZRH. We all joked that the pilots say, "we pay for the whole runway, I am going to use the whole runway!!"

FWIW, I have been inside an IL-86 when I worked for Jet Aviation in ZRH. The plane was cool - huge cockpit, wooden railings for the built-in airstairs, giant pax area. I wish I could have flown in it. When the pilots found out I was also a pilot they were even friendlier. And I have never met an unfriendly Russian pilot. I cannot comment on their skills (though I suspect that they are very good) or anything else, but they are really, really nice guys who seem to enjoy the flying. I wish that we had this at my job.
smrtrthnu
 
backfire
Posts: 3467
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:01 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:34 pm

Well 2 words in your sentence show to me that the person knows nothing on what he says. Those words: aviation journalist



Er...you're skating on VERY thin ice there Aviatsiya. There's a few aviation journalists on this forum who spend their lives making sure they know exactly what they're talking about.

I'm always amazed to find that while aviation journalists attend conferences to learn more about their subject, speak directly to senior airline executives, study technical manuals, talk to aircrews, visit air traffic control centres, and frequently have their own pilot's licence, people who "know" about the work of journalists never seem even to have been inside a publishing house or editorial office.  Insane
 
Guest

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:50 pm

I'm always amazed to find that while aviation journalists attend conferences to learn more about their subject, speak directly to senior airline executives, study technical manuals, talk to aircrews, visit air traffic control centres, and frequently have their own pilot's licence, people who "know" about the work of journalists never seem even to have been inside a publishing house or editorial office

I'm always amazed to find that while aviation journalists attend conferences to learn more about their subject, speak directly to senior airline executives, study techical manuals, talk to aircrews, visit air traffic control centres, and frequently have their own pilot's licence, speak in public and make the most pathetic comments; usually the type of comments one would expect from, umm, lets say, Jsc17  Smile

So, Backfire, what type of butt are you? Camel or Dunhill?  Laugh out loud
 
backfire
Posts: 3467
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:01 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 5:58 pm

Very much Dunhill, dear boy, very much Dunhill  Big grin

No offence intended, but you might step on a few toes by tarring all journos with the same brush (what a cliche...).

[Edited 2003-02-14 10:00:55]
 
Aviastar
Posts: 263
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2000 4:57 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 6:16 pm

Are ER-, UK-, and UN- registered Il-86 concerned?
 
mandala499
Posts: 6600
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 6:17 pm

Conspiracy to buy western aircraft ? Well it doesn't sound too far fetched...

The Indonesian CAA almost blew Lion Airlines out of business when it started by refusing to certify the Yak42 for domestic operations. A deal was made for the planes to be allowed to operate internationally out of Indonesia under foreign registration...

Recently I've managed to piece the stories based on conversations with people familiar with the ICAA and leasing agencies of B732s... Guess what ? The leasing agency went to the airlines saying the Yak42 would put all of them out of business.... So, the airlines went to the ICAA and "lobbied" for ICAA to prevent the Yak42 from being certified...

Being a government agency responsible... it was an easy "decision" to make (followed by a few holidays afterwards by the ICAA officials)...

Just my 2 cent's worth...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
aviasian
Posts: 1244
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 8:11 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Fri Feb 14, 2003 6:37 pm

Mandala499 : Interesting story . . . does not surprise one bit.

Scotty : My apologies . . . I meant Siberia Airlines (S7). Was still in E3-mode because I got to photograph its IL-96 recently at BKK.

Like I earlier admit, I don't know any better why I don't feel comfortable about the prospects of flying a TU-134 . . . I just don't. Talk about making an ignorant choice.

My flight on the IL-62M of Czechoslovak Airlines (from SIN to PRG and return) gave me great confidence in this aircraft - in the way it coped with the huge thunderstorm descending into Bombay and climbing out subsequently.

KC Sim
Bangkok
 
 
Aviastar
Posts: 263
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2000 4:57 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Sat Feb 15, 2003 5:33 am

<<"And taking into account the undertaken measures, the Il-86 plane remains one of the safest planes in civil aviation," Neradko said on TVS television. >>

SpassiGospody
 
delta-flyer
Posts: 2635
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2001 9:47 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:00 pm

Ilyushin96M: .... it's my opinion that any person who says Russian aircraft are unsafe and wouldn't fly in them is ignorant

I guarantee you this gentleman is eminently qualified to talk about airplanes and aviation, quite possibly more than anyone on this forum.. His comment was directed more at Russian airlines than aircraft.

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
delta-flyer
Posts: 2635
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2001 9:47 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:09 pm

Aviatsya...Well 2 words in your sentence show to me that the person knows nothing on what he says. Those words: aviation journalist

I can't tell you who this person is, but ... well, see my post above. This fellow is twice (or nearly) your age, and was not a journalist all his life, but an aviation professional.

Cheers,
Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
Dexter
Posts: 254
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 9:31 pm

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Sun Feb 16, 2003 12:30 am

Here we go again! These discussions about "safe or unsafe Russian a/c" are so pointless. People, who believe that a Tupolev is a safe plane will keep thinking so, and those who are scared of a Tu (for whatever reson!) will stick to their opinion.
The problem is these things are so subjective. We hardly even know how many accidents there have occured in the USSR and the numbers of fatalities! Makes the statistics a bit incomplete, doesn't it?

The argument "its not the planes, its the pilots that are the problem" is just pathetic. Since most airlines flying Russian a/c are Russian, it doesn't help. Means you wouldn't want to fly a Russian plane anyway.

Have a look at these:
http://www1.faa.gov/avr/iasa/iasa50ws.xls
http://www1.faa.gov/avr/iasa/index.htm
To be honest, I am more willing to believe the FAA & ICAO than "some aviation jounalist whose name we don't know".

Just MHO
 
Ilyushin96M
Posts: 2506
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 1999 3:15 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Sun Feb 16, 2003 1:22 am

Well, it's quite true that any aircraft, if not properly-maintained, will become dangerous. But it is also a myth that Aeroflot does not/did not maintain their aircraft. Looking at the huge fleet that Aeroflot once operated during the time of the Soviet Union, the number of crashes as compared to the number of planes in the air at any given time still proves the airline had a decent safety record.

Russian aircraft have suffered from as many setbacks and failures as Western ones - the early Ilyushin IL-62, with its Kuznetsov powerplants subject to uncontained failures (GE CF-6 on the DC-10 also suffered from this more requently than other aircraft); the Antonov AN-10 (Ukrainian, of course) suffered from wing failure due to whirl mode from the propellers/engine nacelles/wing design (Lockheed L-188 Electra suffered from the same, before mods) and was taken out of service; and of course, the Tupolev TU-144, which was essentially doomed from the start by poor design and lack of extensive research and development (it was hurried into production as a prestige aircraft). The Ilyushin IL-86 was also rushed into production; engine-makers were not given enough time to develop an appropriate powerplant for the aircraft; it would have benefitted TREMENDOUSLY from better engines. However, as a design and airframe, the IL-86 does not exhibit any design flaws or real problems, as evidenced by its very low incident/crash index. The same holds true for the Ilyushin IL-96-300; though the engines are problematic, the aircraft themselves are quite safe, the design and structure quite solid.

It is certainly unfair for Russian aircraft, in and of themselves, to be targeted as unsafe. I do agree that it is a question of maintenance, but, given the current safety record of major airlines such as Aeroflot, Sibir, KrasAir, Pulkovo and other major Russian airlines, I don't see any real problems. Of course, a small airline operating a Yakovlev YAK-40...that might be a different story.

 
Silverstreak
Posts: 311
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 2:49 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Mon Feb 17, 2003 2:54 am

My only concern about Russian aircraft is that there will not be any around for me to take a flight in! I've yet been able to experience these aircraft. One day..........
 
delta-flyer
Posts: 2635
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2001 9:47 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Mon Feb 17, 2003 3:13 am

....the number of crashes as compared to the number of planes in the air at any given time still proves the airline had a decent safety record.


Assuming, of course, that you are privy to all the crashes that occurred during the Soviet era inside the USSR. Officially, there were no crashes inside the Soviet Union, except those that were coincidentally witnessed by Western observers.

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
OD720
Posts: 1856
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 6:46 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Mon Feb 17, 2003 3:23 am

I've flown on the IL-86 so many times and all have been very smooth and pleasant. It even feels more spacious than the 747 and the Airbus widebodies.
I wish the inflight services were as good too  Smile
 
yka
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 3:00 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Mon Feb 17, 2003 4:00 am

I'm kind of baffled by the comment, "grounding of the Il-86 will cause the airlines to loose millions of dollars". I'd be suprised if any airlines based in the former Soviet union actually had every made any money. We have airlines like C3 with new fleets going under, I can't imaging how airlines operating fuel hungry russian a/c are making profits..not to mention that 99.9 of people in russia can't afford air travel in the first place.
 
OD720
Posts: 1856
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 6:46 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Mon Feb 17, 2003 4:26 am

YKA:

If the airlines need to replace the grounded IL-86s in their fleets, it will cost them at least a few million dollars, right?
 
Dexter
Posts: 254
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 9:31 pm

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:06 am

Officially, there were no crashes inside the Soviet Union, except those that were coincidentally witnessed by Western observers.

Well, let's not over-exaggerate it! Most, if not all, accident reports have been published by now.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/list.php?field=Country&var=RA&sorteer=datekey&kind=A&cat=acc&page=1
I've just realized that what we really don't know is how many a/c SU actually used to operate, as well as RPK data. Thus, we can only try to calculate numbers of fatalities per a/c built.


I'd be suprised if any airlines based in the former Soviet union actually had every made any money
Look at the first page of this (under "ner profit"): http://www.atwonline.com/Pdf/tables.pdf
It mentions SU as being the 16th most profitable airline in the world in 2001/02.

I can't imaging how airlines operating fuel hungry russian a/c are making profits According to the ATW table, Kras Air made a profit of some $10million that year.


Unlike some people on this forum, I'm not a great fan of Russian aircraft or Russia itself, but the inobjectivity and prejudice expressed by some members is just weird.
 
MEA-707
Posts: 3872
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 1999 4:51 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:19 am

Delta Flyer and Dexter; I (check my website http://www.airlinerlist.com ) and some other people made serious studies of Russian airliner production lists and I can guarantee you there are NO secret covered up Il-86 accidents, let's say a LED-SVO flight in 1986 killing 300. The reason is all built airframes (and the production and construction number system is quite clear) are accounted for and have been seen. Same with the other bigger aircraft. Also in the more opened up press era (1991-1999) I am sure survivors, witnesses and families would discuss hidden disasters, like they did about a football stadium disaster in 1982.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
delta-flyer
Posts: 2635
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2001 9:47 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:03 am

Gentemen, I agree, since 1990, much of the pre-1990 accident data is now becoming available. But I am rather skeptical whether all accidents have been accounted for.

My step-father was a member of the communist party in Hungary prior to 1956 (when he escaped that lovely Communism for that decadent Capitalism), and he told me countless stories of lies and cover-ups in all industries, particularly in aviation. This was equally true of Hungary, USSR and all east-bloc countries. He was an engineer, and he knew a few things the general public did not.

Again, pardon my intense skepticism and distaste for pre-1990 USSR.

As for Russian aircraft, I don't want to imply that they are not technically well designed. On the contrary, Russian aircraft designers are top-notch. The problem is more with the management and infrastructure of the whole aviation industry and the lack of morale of the workers. A Russian engineer colleague who is now working for us assures me that all aircraft parts made prior to lunch are very good. But after lunch is washed down by liberal amounts of vodka, the quality in the afternoon diminishes.  Smile

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:51 am

I'd fly any Russian/Soviet airliner if it were properly maintained.
And even if maintenance is less than what is required for US and European built aircraft I might still fly them as they were designed to operate in an environment where maintenance might be done by people without adequate training from time to time.

But in the state in which most of these aircraft currently are to be found I would not feel comfortable flying them...
I wish I were flying
 
delta-flyer
Posts: 2635
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2001 9:47 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:18 am

...they were designed to operate in an environment where maintenance might be done by people without adequate training from time to time

I wouldn't go THAT far!  Smile

Pete  Smile
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
Guest

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:32 am

Delta-Flyer

What was this guy's position in the aviation industry. Unless he actually deals with Russian aviation how is he more qualified than anyone on these forums to make statements like those which he apparently made?

Dexter

Aviation safety is anything but subjective. It is objective. If safety was subjective, MAK would have banned the Il-86 for good. Subjectivity is saying "Shit, an Il-86 crashed. We had better ban it, because it is an unsafe aircraft". Objectivity is "Shit, and Il-86 crashed. We had better look at the entire record of the aircraft throughout its operational history, do checks on the existing airframes, investigate precisely what the cause of the Pulkovo crash was, and then make informed judgements on whether the aircraft is still safe to fly".

Those who are subjective, are those who are unable to be objective. I usually call it small-mindedness.

Ilyushin96M

I do agree with you, except for one minor point. It isn't so much disagreement, than it is an additional point. About the maintenance part, I don't believe it is the main thing. I would suggest that the 2 major causes of aircraft accidents in Russia would be 1) crew error and 2) weather.

By crew error, I don't just mean pilot error, but also things like overloading of aircraft due to "miscalculations" by ground crew (e.g. Rus Il-76).

The GSGA is busily looking at the operations of the Russian airlines at the moment (it is wanting to reduce the overall number of carriers), and doesn't hesitate in revoking an airline's AOC if they feel that maintenance standards aren't what they are supposed to be; IRS Aero is a recent example of that.

I would trust even those small airlines only flying a couple of Yak-40s. There is a new airline called Skol which flies 1 or 2 Yak-40s and if there maintenance wasn't up to scrap, the GSGA wouldn't have given them a licence to fly. But I know you are somewhat hesitant to fly on these birds  Wink/being sarcastic

YKA

2 points. Many airlines in the former Soviet Union, in particular, Russia, are profitable. Aeroflot, KrasAir, Pulkovo Aviation Enterprise, Siberia Airlines, UTAir, East Line and many others turn a profit. I know that Siberia Airlines last year made a small loss, but this was nothing to do with operating economics, but more to do with the merger of Vnukovo Airlines (ineffective management on the part of V5 management).

Also, a lot of people in Russia can afford to fly these days. Why do you think there are so many charters from Russia to various tourist spots in the Mediterranean, Turkey, Egypt, Middle East, South East Asia. And they aren't intermittent charters, but basically scheduled charters, particularly during the summer. These flights don't just leave from more "wealthy" cities such as Moscow and St Petersburg, but cities such as Barnaul, Salekhard, Kemerovo, Makhachkala, Skytyvkar, and a host of others most people outside of Russia have never even heard of.

In addition, air fares in Russia are very cheap when you compare them to air fares in Europe, Australia, America, etc

Jtwenting

Good point. But it seems when most people think of run down Russian aircraft, they usually think of all of those An-12s which are operating out of Sharjah. In Russia it is a totally different story; basically, GSGA and MAK standards are on par with what one would expect in "western" civil aviation. The only airlines I would be somewhat hesitant about flying are those which are owned by Viktor Bout out of Sharjah, such as Air Cess, Centrafricain, or whatever they are called this week  Smile
 
Dexter
Posts: 254
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 9:31 pm

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:58 am

Aviatsya,
Well, then that decision concerning the IL86 must have been completely subjective. As far as I understand, the haven't found the cause of the Pulkovo accident, but the type's safety record is pretty good. Where is the objectivity? Perhaps they're just being cautious...

What I really meant by "subjective" are most of the forum member's feelings and judgements about Soviet aircraft. They just keep saying things like "But in the state in which most of these aircraft currently are to be found I would not feel comfortable flying them..." What is this statement based on?

I'd also like to clarify my points about accident statistics in the USSR, beacuse my previous posts seem to kind of contradict each other. What I was trying to say is even though a lot of the info is avaliable now, quite a few things may still confidential, I guess. We don't know much about the Russian military aviation's safety or causes of many incidents.
 
delta-flyer
Posts: 2635
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2001 9:47 am

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Mon Feb 17, 2003 10:40 am

What was this guy's position in the aviation industry

Well, I can't answer that. But suffice to say, he has as much credibility as anyone on this forum, judging by your profiles and your posts.

Cheers,
Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Moscow Times: Il-86 May Be Grounded, Unsafe?

Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:46 pm

Also remember that temporary grounding of entire fleets of aircraft has happened in the past when a serious accident happened and the cause couldn't be found quickly.
Think of the Comet for example. The entire fleet was grounded for a good while and as soon as it returned to service (without the cause of the accident having been found and addressed) the accidents started again...

There was talk of grounding all 737s when 2 crashed due to rudder failure in a short time (rudder actuator design was changed and crews made aware of limits to operations until installation).
Something similar happened to the DC-10 when the forward cargo door was blown away on two of them within a few months (which was found to be crew error, improper locking. Procedures were changed and new locking mechanisms installed).
I wish I were flying

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: airtechy, asqx, Avtur, Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], calpsafltskeds, flyorski, Google Adsense [Bot], gstpa, HanCholo, ifIHadWings, Independence76, Kiwiandrew, LOT767301ER, n757kw, Nwa340, Pampot70, Piedmont500, StlHsvSfoSan, SXI899, umichman, USPIT10L, ZK-NBT and 178 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos