Could Air Tran Order Airbus

United777 · Sun Feb 23, 2003 5:33 pm

Justplanes.com is reporting Air Tran is looking at Boeing and Airbus for a 50 aircraft order this year.

Could Air Tran really go to Airbus after being a good Boeing customer espically for the 717-200. Do you think Air Tran could order the A318 or A319?

Airbus Lover · Sun Feb 23, 2003 5:41 pm

If the deal is sweet enough, why not?!

Im sure Airbus will somehow sweeten the deal.. But I think they would most probably order Boeing. We'll see, hope I am wrong Smile/happy/getting dizzy

gigneil · Sun Feb 23, 2003 5:42 pm

I forsee this as the next generation of the "What is NW replacing their DC-9s with?" thread.

Smile/happy/getting dizzy

N

Airbus Lover · Sun Feb 23, 2003 6:45 pm

Yeh could be with the increasing number of Air Tran threads... hmmm Insane

777236ER · Sun Feb 23, 2003 7:13 pm

Airbus Lover (!), the point is that it's sheer guesswork. Of course AirTran could order A319s. They could order 737-700s. Anything past that is pointless speculation.

Airbus Lover · Sun Feb 23, 2003 7:37 pm

"Could Air Tran order Airbus".. well sure they can if they want to and if Airbus really offered them something they cannot refuse...

Nothing is impossible, only time will tell.

777236ER · Sun Feb 23, 2003 7:38 pm

I'm sure you already said that.

teva · Sun Feb 23, 2003 8:06 pm

Airtran was loyal to MDD, not to Boieng. If Boeing pushes them to have a mix fleet 717 and 737, then there is no reason for them to stick to Boeing. They can also have a mix of 717 and A320. They will have the same NON commonality.
Moving to Airbus would be a nice way to thank Boeing for not listening to their customers requests
Teva.

BR715-A1-30 · Sun Feb 23, 2003 11:57 pm

Good Call Teva, If AirTran went with the A319. Then that means they could get A320s, A318s, A321s, and hell, even A330s if they ever needed them. With Boeing, They'd be limited to the -600,-700,-800,-900.

But I am sure, AirTran will do what they feel is right for the companyairbus, after all, they've gotten this fardenver haven't they?

gr8slvrflt · Mon Feb 24, 2003 12:04 am

I think way too much has been made of loyalty to one manufacturer over another. The days of handshake deals are long gone. AirTran, and any other airline for that matter, will take advantage of the best deal available.

HlywdCatft · Mon Feb 24, 2003 12:36 am

I see this turning into an Airbus vs Boeing war.

Of course they could order the Airbus, they could also order the CRJ900, the EMB 190 and even a fleet of Cessna 172s if they wanted. If they can afford it they can buy it.

Now the question whether than "Could they" is "Would they"

I think they would buy Airbus if Airbus offered them a better deal, but I think it is a scare to maybe make Boeing give in to making the 717-300.

I don't see what it would hurt Boeing to make a 717-300 for a loyal customer like Air Tran, after all the 767-400 was pretty much custom built for Delta and Continental and I bet a 713 would outsell the 764.

propilotjw · Mon Feb 24, 2003 4:56 am

Remember, Ait Tran is kinda pissed that Boeing isn't offering the 717-300 for them. Also Air Tran always has to keep their options open to new "sweet" deals. the A318 is the same size as the 717 but has a wider cabin, more cargo room and a greater range than the 717.

ba319-131 · Mon Feb 24, 2003 5:03 am

Its a game of wait and see.

If Airtrans purchasing dept is doing their job right,they will be trying to beat Boeing and Airbus down to the best price they can get.

At the end of the day I can't say if Airtran is going to stay loyal to Boeing and go with the best price Boeing will give them for,say,73G,or go with Airbus for some 319's if Airbus come in with a better price.

Lets wait and see,though i'd love to see a 319 in Airtran colors.

Rgds

BA319-131

717fan · Mon Feb 24, 2003 5:16 am

One thing is clear: Airtran doesn't want to replace the 717, they want a new, larger aircraft to supplement the 717-200. So. forget the A318 definitly....
Perhaps the A319...

HlywdCatft · Mon Feb 24, 2003 5:30 am

The only way that Air Tran would get an A318 would be if they ordered the A319 and got rid of all of their 717s. An A318 and 717 is kind of redundant in the same fleet.

SegmentKing · Mon Feb 24, 2003 5:40 am

There is little to NO commonality w/ the A321 and A320... except the name, airframe, and undercarriage. The A321's range SUCKS.

Look for an order for A320s or Boeing 737-800s, not -700s.

-nate

Guest · Mon Feb 24, 2003 5:41 am

Plus, the A318, similar to the 736, will be a double-shrink and heavy. On FL's shorter routes, the aircraft is too expensive to operate compared to the 717.

Not trying to bash Airbus. I would make the exact same argument against the 736.

777236ER · Mon Feb 24, 2003 5:41 am

There is little to NO commonality w/ the A321 and A320... except the name, airframe, and undercarriage

......all other systems, engines and flight deck. But yeah, little to NO!

artsyman · Mon Feb 24, 2003 8:40 am

The British paper the Observer is reporting that Airbus has won the Air tran order and that it is a major victory for Airbus.... what a crock, no deal is done

Jeremy

clickhappy · Mon Feb 24, 2003 8:48 am

if AirTran goes Airbus then I assume Airbus will have to assume the debt that Boeing is carrying for AirTran? Would Boeing be forced to give Airbus the same terms that they gave AirTran, or could they demand payment?

SegmentKing · Mon Feb 24, 2003 8:52 am

If the A321 is the 'same' as the A320, then why do most airlines have to fence off the pilots who fly the A320 vs A321??????

the A321 is the biggest piece of @*#* of a plane I've ever seen or had to work in my entire life. That plane can barely fly 1500 miles if its at MTOW... compared to a 757 that can fly for 6 hours if it departs at MTOW...

-n

BWIA 772 · Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:10 am

How much would it cost boeing to make the 717- 300 and if they did how many customers would their be for it.

Air Tran can be as vex with Boeing but it doesnt change the fact that Boeing like them are in this for the money (profits not losses) and will not make the 713 unless it is going to add to the bottome line or at least pay for it self.

Its all good to say that by AirTran going Airbus that it would be a nice way to stick to Boeing for not going through with the 713 but Airbus seems more concern with getting orders than making a profit off of them. Airbus' plan for profitability seems to be more in the future than right now given the way in which they are getting these large narrow bodied orders.

Dash8King · Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:36 am

Moving to Airbus would be a nice way to thank Boeing for not listening to their customers requests

Boeing is a public company and has many shareholders to worry about. I think they would be pissed off if Boeing built a plane that they see no market for. In a different economy maybe but right now it looks as though AirTran would be the only customer and unless they pay a really high price then Boeing will lose money on it. You guys need to look at it from a business perspective not a aviation enthusiast perspective.

BR715-A1-30 · Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:44 am

Good Example with the 764.

Delta/Continental: Yeah, We want a 767-400, but we don't think any other airlines will order it.
Boeing: Well, It is a Boeing product, so sure, we will build it.

AirTran: Yeah, We want a 717-300. I am sure there is a market for it for DC9 replacements
Boeing: Uh, Yeah Right. There is no need for a 717-300.

That's F**ked up right there.

Dash8King · Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:51 am

The 764 although I might be wrong does not have its own assembly line unlike the 717. And the airlines don't find out if there is a market that is what Boeing/Airbus does.

Dazed767 · Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:55 am

I have a feeling Airbus will give them a sweeter deal on the A319. I wouldn't be suprised to see A319's floating around in 'Tran colors Big grin

HlywdCatft · Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:58 am

Well the point is the 717-300 could be made on the same assembly line as the 200.

I personally see other airlines, maybe even a couple major airlines ordering the 717-300 down the road. I think Boeing instead should cut production of the 736.

How many 736s has Boeing sold?

I can see Air Tran ordering 50 713s and put options for another 50. Are there even 50 736s flying? The point is both the 736 and the 713 are (could be) built on assembly lines with their "sister" planes the 73G and 712 respectively.

I think if Air Tran has success with the 713, I could see a couple other majors showing interest- Delta and NW come to mind. Delta does not have a known replacement for its 732s yet and NW doesn't have a known replacement for the DC-9-50s yet (i am not trying to start a what is Northwest replacing its 9's with discussion).

gigneil · Mon Feb 24, 2003 10:36 am

Uhm. No. That was the A321-100, and they don't even make that plane anymore... and even then, it shared complete commonality with the A320 just needed MTOW upgrades. It was TOO common with the 320.

The A321-200 is a great plane, and is replacing 757s in Euro charter fleets.

And they are the same, and there's no reason why the pilots should have to be fenced off. What airlines are you referring to, honey?

Airtran employees have said over and over in this forum that Airtran doesn't even care that Boeing won't make a 717-300.

N

CanadianNorth · Mon Feb 24, 2003 10:41 am

I can see them going with Airbus or Boeing... I would like to see them go with Boeing but Im sure they will do what works best for them. I think that Boeing should consider a 717-300 and Air Tran should take a good look at the 737NG. From what I see the 737NG can do the job just as good as an A319!
A 717-300 could work for Boeing, and a 737NG could work for Air Tran. I say Boeing and Air Tran should consider this and Air Tran should only look at the Airbusses after they see what they can get out of Boeing.

CanadianNorth

ConcordeBoy · Mon Feb 24, 2003 10:41 am

Then that means they could get A320s, A318s, A321s, and hell, even A330s if they ever needed them. With Boeing, They'd be limited to the -600,-700,-800,-900

If you truly believe that an A320 pilot can just jump right into an A330 and fly it (solely due to cockpit layout similarity); then I suggest that you consider taking a few less hits on the Airbus bong... Big grin

There are vastly different weights involved, and the training to switch between the two would be basically similar to a different fleet type anyways.

[Edited 2003-02-24 02:42:47]

9v-svc · Mon Feb 24, 2003 11:35 am

If Boeing doesnt do the 717-300 , I hope Airbus will make them regret their decision . It will be great to see AirTran flying A319s but 717-300 will be great !!

gigneil · Mon Feb 24, 2003 12:13 pm

Why do people still harp on the 713?

Airtran might want them... but they also want ANOTHER TYPE to fly long range. They never said they cared so much about the 713.

N

gigneil · Mon Feb 24, 2003 12:14 pm

And Boeing has sold 81 736s, is the answer to whoever asked.

N

Guest · Mon Feb 24, 2003 12:32 pm

Rumor has it that the next type flying in an FL paintscheme will be the 738s of Miami Air flying up to four west coast routes. I read on a separate board that there is a clause in the pilots contract to allow flying to 4 specific cities on the left coast(I think LAX, SFO, SEA, and either LAS or SAN, but don't quote me) by Miami Air in exchange for no layoffs.

Anybody on here know if it is true or not?

gigneil · Mon Feb 24, 2003 12:37 pm

I know that I've heard it from many many people, including a few of the Airtran employees on the forum.

N

mrlineguy · Mon Feb 24, 2003 1:42 pm

Rumor has it that the next type flying in an FL paintscheme will be the 738s of Miami Air flying up to four west coast routes. I read on a separate board that there is a clause in the pilots contract to allow flying to 4 specific cities on the left coast(I think LAX, SFO, SEA, and either LAS or SAN, but don't quote me) by Miami Air in exchange for no layoffs.

Anybody on here know if it is true or not?

Look for AirTran to announce service to 4 western cities (LAX, SFO, LAS, and PHX) using 737-800's operated by Miami Air in FL paint and the crew wearing FL uniforms, very similar to the Air Wisconsin deal. There is scope limitations in the pilots' contract...but I'm not entirely sure what the limitations are. All I know is that the pilots asked for and received a "no furlough" clause. The next 3 weeks should be very interesting here at AirTran!!

Kevin
AirTran CSA/RAMP
MDW

sllevin · Mon Feb 24, 2003 1:54 pm

Delta/Continental: Yeah, We want a 767-400, but we don't think any other airlines will order it. But we'll pay you for them
Boeing: Well, It is a Boeing product, so sure, we will build it.

AirTran: Yeah, We want a 717-300. I am sure there is a market for it for DC9 replacements. Not that anyone aside from us is ordering them. And we'll need you to loan us the money to pay for them, too
Boeing: Uh, Yeah Right. There is no need for a 717-300.

The sooner the 717 is killed off, the better. It's been a loser aircraft from the beginning.

Steve

gigneil · Mon Feb 24, 2003 2:40 pm

I think the 717 is a great plane, and a great idea, at the wrong time.

N

travatl · Mon Feb 24, 2003 2:41 pm

Wasn't there just a 50-post thread on this exact subject, and it contained the exact same irrelevancy (i.e. "I think", "I hope", "I want", "I heard", etc.). Nobody knows, not even AirTran. Only time will tell, and this subject is becoming BORING...

Travis

Dash8King · Mon Feb 24, 2003 11:29 pm

Correction Travatl I think there have been two threads about this with about 50 posts.

Tan Flyr · Tue Feb 25, 2003 12:00 am

Yes, they might order Airbus....and Boeing MIGHT give them such a deal on 752's , just to keep the line going that they couldn't say no...

It is all just speculation...thought the current anti-French sentiment might hurt Airbus. Maybe It might just be the "right thing" to purchase an American built aircraft.

travatl · Tue Feb 25, 2003 12:58 am

With the death of McCarthyism, came the death of airline loyalties to political boundaries. It sure ain't hurting jetBlue to fly A320s, and AirTran will go with the carrier making the most lucrative offer. PERIOD.

Travis

RayChuang · Tue Feb 25, 2003 1:22 am

There's also this possibility: FL might be eyeing the UA A319 fleet if UA does go under.

The A319 is not too big a plane for FL, and it definitely has the range to fly ATL-SFO or even MCO-SFO year-round on a full or near-full load.

Mark my words--if UA does shut down expect FL to be one of the bidders for the UA A319's.

Greg · Tue Feb 25, 2003 1:47 am

Actually, expect anti-U.S. sentiment from France and Germany to have some affect on decisions--but in a more subtle way. It's tough to do business with folks that just plain don't like you. It would be different if you had to buy your BWM directly from a German instead of an American salesman. I would expect Boeing to play the patriotism card very well. Airbus is far from stupid--AB of North America has a primarily American salesforce....so it probably all equals out. No revelation...just an observation.

The 717-300 does not exist. It won't. Boeing has already said so.
Boeing was loyal to AirTran in continuing the with the 717 after the MacDac purchase. I doubt there are any lingering hard feelings.

Oddly enough, two more solid customers for the 717 could make it a 'keeper.' Otherwise, that factory WILL be a shopping center in three years.

srbmod · Tue Feb 25, 2003 1:52 am

AirTran could be getting A320s in a sweetheart deal akin to the A300 deal Eastern got back in the 1970s. This is not the first time AirTran has approached Airbus. When Valujet was shopping for a DC-9 replacement, they approached Boeing, Airbus, and McDonnell-Douglas (rumor had it that they also talked to ROMBAC about their licenced version of the BAC 1-11). MDD gave them a better deal than Airbus or Boeing (rumor was that had MDD not given them the deal they got, Valujet would have order Airbus back in 1996). I look to see AirTran making the switch to Airbus and eventually swapping the 717s for Airbus a/c as a way of giving Boeng the Bird.

travatl · Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:16 am

Srbmod -

I have a video entitled "Special Reprt: Launch of the MD95". It's as much about ValuJet as it is about the aircraft.

It was made by McDonnell Douglas in late 1995, and includes interviews with both MCD and ValuJet executives. It states that the Airbus proposal was "dropped early on in the decision making process", and Lewis Jordan (then VJ President and COO) goes on to say that they were leaning toward the Boeing product as their first choice, until they received a letter from MCD with the signatures of 19 execs expressing the adamant desire to build this airplane for ValuJet. It was then that they began to seriously reconsider the MCD offer, and ultimately chose it with the desire to eventually operate a mixed fleet of MD80 and MD95 aircraft.

Oh how times do change....

Travis

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