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AIR757200
Topic Author
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Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sat Mar 01, 2003 9:32 am


I know this will bring up more debate regarding the 717-300 vs. the 737-600.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=2308591
 
AApilot2b
Posts: 481
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sat Mar 01, 2003 10:12 am

It would be great if Boeing could receive a strong order from one of the European Star Alliance members as the article mentions. Backing by a major could be a positive boost to the 717 program.
 
Dash8King
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sat Mar 01, 2003 10:15 am

It is going to fly the same range? I thought airlines wanted more range.
 
CX747
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sat Mar 01, 2003 10:23 am

European "Star Alliance" members. Is the 717 winging its way to a home in Frankfurt?
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
scottysair
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sat Mar 01, 2003 10:23 am

Yes, this is very interesting for AirTran want with B717-300 aircraft and if they are approve will began builts for bigger aircraft with B713. I do think airlines want get more range with than of 1,400 miles to up 2,000 miles range. Do you had a suggest questions about of the aircraft for me. Thanks!

Regards!

Scott W.
 
Sonic
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:30 am

Well, I can't understand why they wants more range than 2000nm... If you'd try to type in in Great Circle Mapper, you'd see that with such range from FRA you could fly to basically any destination anyone would like to fly 717 to - all Europe, some Mid East, big part of Greenland, North Africa Russia to Ural are covered. You could fly non-stop Frankfurt-Teheran, Frankfurt-Tel Aviv, Frankfurt-Rabat, Frankfurt-Tenerife, Frankfurt-Nuuk with 717-200 HGW. If they wants to use 717 on longer routes, why doesn't they gets 737-600 or 737-700 then? 717 is not made for long or medium range routes, it's market is short range routes with many landings.
 
9v-svc
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sat Mar 01, 2003 12:12 pm

I hope to see the 717-300 as I really dislike flying the 737s . It gives another option for passengers to choose also . I rather fly MD-80/90 or A320 over 737 any day .

Airliners is the wings of my life.
 
AIR757200
Topic Author
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sat Mar 01, 2003 12:14 pm


The aircraft would feature the same range with the additional 20-25 or so seats.

 
9v-svc
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sat Mar 01, 2003 12:16 pm

Come on , lets see the 717-300 !!! 717-200 needs a sister definately , she is too lonely .  Smile


Charles
Airliners is the wings of my life.
 
sllevin
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sat Mar 01, 2003 2:57 pm

I'll be stunned if any significant order develops. Boeing's just establishing the point at which they can start shutting the line down, which is really dictated by the outstanding orders. Of course they'd like to squeeze some additional orders out of folks and possibly make money on the 717, but they've been singing this song for a couple of years and no one's dancing.

It'll be a good day for Boeing when they can finally shut down the 717 line and stop pouring money into the line at Long Beach.

Steve
 
wilax
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sat Mar 01, 2003 3:07 pm

I don't understand why noone ever remembers the Increased Gross Weight option for the 717-200 which brings the range up to the 2000nm range. I don't think anyone has ordered it though. The 713 should be a go unless Boeing just hates the adopted line and is looking for excuses not to build it. The A318 and 736 are double-shrink jokes; expensive and heavy. The 717 is perfect for the market that it is targeted to and could be Boeing's answer to the cramped and underrespected RJ. There are a lot of aging DC9's out there that could easily be replaced by an attractively priced 717.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sat Mar 01, 2003 3:11 pm

Air France will probably get it.

Hell they fly or have flown practically every other plane in existance.

(ok, that was a joke people- don't take it seriously about Air France going for a 717-300)

A serious possible European contender that I could see getting it could be Alitalia. I know Alitalia has the A319, but are they replacing all of their MD-80s with an A319?

Also why waste the range of the A319 on Rome-Milan, or Rome- Palermo runs when you could use the 717 for that?
 
717fan
Posts: 1980
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sat Mar 01, 2003 4:57 pm

Finally Boeing takes a lip on the 717-300....and it doesn't sounds too bad!!!
If they really get a big order from Star Alliance, wow I can't say anything more....but I am still sceptic...
 
Dash8King
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sat Mar 01, 2003 6:19 pm

The 713 should be a go unless Boeing just hates the adopted line and is looking for excuses not to build it

It all comes down to money and market. I hope they build this aircraft but with this economy it doesn't look as though to many airlines can afford it right now. Like I have said many times I truly believe that in a better economy that this aircraft would be successful.
 
TriStar500
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sat Mar 01, 2003 8:03 pm

Kind of surprising to me that Spanair wasn't mentioned as one of the likely Star Alliance 713 customers.
A recent article in airliner world stated that Spanair Link has outstanding options for 17 (or 21?) 717's and is likely to convert most of them into orders, since the airline is very satisfied with the aircraft.
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
racko
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sat Mar 01, 2003 8:36 pm

I really hope LH will go for the 717. They've never used a DC-9 derivate, and that's really a black hole in their fleet history.

They don't seem to be happy with what the other RJ manufacturers do, neither the CRJ9 nor the EMB170 suits them. The Do728 was designed mainly after their wishes and was probably the perfect plane for them. Too bad it'll never make it to the air.

 
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American 767
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sat Mar 01, 2003 8:57 pm

I also thought that Alitalia would be interested in it because it has operated the DC-9 on intra Italian ane European routes for a long time and has now an MD-80 fleet in large numbers, so it could replace in the long run MD-80's with the 717-300, but they are going instead for the A320 family and the ERJ-170. They have currently A320's and A321's, I don't know how many, but they have a lot more on order.

Maybe SAS will be interested because it has also operated for a long time DC-9's and MD-80's in intra Scandinavian and European flights, SAS has always focused on Douglas airlines since it was founded in the 40's just after WW II. I wouldn't be surprised if SAS orders the 717-300. SAS is a Star Alliance member isn't it?

Ben Soriano
Brussels Belgium
Ben Soriano
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:05 pm

First of all, ( I couldn't resist this...) do you think NWA wrill consider the 717-200/300 to replace thier DC-9 fleet?  Nuts

Seocnd, regarding the 728Jet,

They don't seem to be happy with what the other RJ manufacturers do, neither the CRJ9 nor the EMB170 suits them. The Do728 was designed mainly after their wishes and was probably the perfect plane for them. Too bad it'll never make it to the air.

I thought the 728 was resurected by a Russian company??

I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
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skyymarc
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:21 pm

AirTran ordering this plane is probably a given. We certainly could use the extra seating capacity on many of our routes. Midwest is also likely to get it as well. BoeingFlight Safety, soon to be renamed Alteon, is opening a training center in ATL with 717 sims for AirTran, Midwest, and other customers. I see signs of Boeing giving this program more support. Time will tell if we see a 717-300 in FL, YX, or any Star Alliance colors, which would be great.The -200 needs a sister to make a large fleet of these aircraft more flexible.Unless they can get more range into this variant, FL will go for another aircraft to do transcons. Although I would love for us to continue going Boeing. Talks of Airbus are sure floating around here alot lately.
 
sllevin
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sun Mar 02, 2003 12:28 am

The 713 should be a go unless Boeing just hates the adopted line and is looking for excuses not to build it

I would say losing money on every airframe built is a good excuse. That's been the case so far, and short of some miraculous order, it would be the case for the 717-300.

Steve
 
yago
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sun Mar 02, 2003 1:54 am

I also believe Spanair or parent company SAS could be the best 717 customer in Europe. Spanair has already its ex-Aebal ones and does not seem to be getting many Airbus (I work at MAD and I rarely see any).
 
F4N
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sun Mar 02, 2003 5:09 am


To all:

Although I cannot find the article at the moment, the Seattle P-I mentioned the Star Alliance, SAS, Qantas, Airtran and United(of all things)as being interested. I can't recall the others.

Regards,

F4N
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sun Mar 02, 2003 5:18 am

**First of all, ( I couldn't resist this...) do you think NWA wrill consider the 717-200/300 to replace thier DC-9 fleet?**

I know that was meant as a spoof to our daily what is Northwest replacing their DC-9s with thread...

You brought up a good point.

but on the otherhand, if Boeing does bring out the 717-300 to build with its 200, that could help convince Northwest more towards Boeing's direction. It seems again a waste of the Airbus's range capabilities just to fly back and forth from destinations like DTW-FNT, DTW-GRR, DTW-CLE, MSP- MKE, MEM-BNA which are all between 75-200 miles apart. The 200 could replace the DC-9-30s and the 300 to replace the 50s.

But I don't want to get too much into this discussion because it gets out of hand, next thing we will here are about what happens to the old 747s.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sun Mar 02, 2003 5:19 am

I totally forgot about Alitalia getting the ERJ-170
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sun Mar 02, 2003 5:35 am

Surprised that no one has yet picked up on the fact that article appears to think that QF is a member of the Star Alliance? An omen of things to come.... or another media screw-up? You decide
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
lgbguy
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sun Mar 02, 2003 12:24 pm

Talked to a number of folks at the Midwest delivery ceremonies yesterday and all seem very positive that the -300 will become a reality, lets keep our fingers, eyes, and toes crossed.

Lgbguy
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sun Mar 02, 2003 12:40 pm

Midwest is teetering on destruction. If things don't turn around soon, ME could be history. I wouldn't be surprised is ME reneges on some of the 717's they are supposed to receive.
 
717fan
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Sun Mar 02, 2003 6:26 pm

An interesting point is that Boeing has named airlines who are possible 717-200 and -300 customers. Boeing is usually very careful by naming possible customers....
 
elal106
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RE: Lgbguy

Sun Mar 02, 2003 6:54 pm

hey LgbGuy!
where were you on friday? i must have seen you, but didnt know!!!

elal106
 
lgbguy
Posts: 336
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Mon Mar 03, 2003 7:00 am

I WAS AT THE MIDWEST BREAKFAST, THEN WONDERED AROUND TAKING PHOTOS. I THEN WENT OUT WITH ONE OF THE BOEING VIDEO GUYS (ROSS) TO THE MIDDLE OF THE AIRPORT TO GET TAXI AND DEPARTURE SHOTS AS THE AIRCRAFT HEADED TO MCI.

LGBGUY
 
Guest

RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Tue Mar 04, 2003 2:34 am

I can say for a fact that there is a group of 6 european carriers including Lufthansa, SAS and Austrian who are putting together a deal to order 100 717-200/300 aircraft. Then they would divide that amound between them, just like the KSSU group did with the DC-10s. Boeing has also proposed the 717 BBJ to both Sears and Walmart so we shall wait and see what happens with that.

Stephen
 
717fan
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Tue Mar 04, 2003 5:31 am

Oh, that sounds good...who are the other 3 customers? One must be Spanair...
 
elwood64151
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Tue Mar 04, 2003 7:20 am

I saw there was an article about AirTran ordering upwards of 75-125 aircraft, and being very upset with Boeing for not backing the 713. So if Star-Alliance turns Boeing back on to the model, that's something of an "in-your-face" to FL. That doesn't mean that they'll necessarily take offense, but since Boeing has said it needs 200 orders to make money and is, right now, 47 short, I'd have jumped at the chance.

The 713 won't cost a great deal of money to build. It has already been designed (back when it was called MD-95-30). Since it shares over 90% of its body with the 712, there'll be minimal re-tooling. And the type already has a certificate, though it will need to be sub-type certificated. That's a minimal investment to keep a customer happy and to prevent writing-off the Long Beach plant, which would look very bad in this economy.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
F4N
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Tue Mar 04, 2003 7:21 am

To all:

Perhaps Iberia?? They used DC9's and continue to use MD80's. Maybe the Boeing order for 6500 shipsets of helicopter rotor blades from Gamesa will help.

regards,

F4N
 
elwood64151
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Tue Mar 04, 2003 7:35 am

Something I forgot to mention:

If Boeing had marketed the 717 properly when it first came out, they might have gotten enough orders on it. Instead, they treated it like a bastard child and so it never made the projected sales MDC saw coming.

Just a thought.

p.s. Will be flying FL this weekend back to my home of MCI for the weekend. Can't wait!
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
Guest

RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Tue Mar 04, 2003 9:36 am

Yes Spanair is one of the other 6 european carriers in the group order. AirTran has told Boeing they want 50 717-200's, 50 717-300's and 80 options of 717-200/300. They also told Boeing that if they don't get the -300, they are going to Airbus......end of story, no if's, and's or but's so Boeing better deliver. Iberia and Finnair both has been looking at the 717 and have been to LGB to visit the plant. Right now Boeing is about 50% all of the way for building the -300.

Stephen
 
Dash8King
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Tue Mar 04, 2003 10:48 am

LGB Photos what are your sources? I hope that is just a rumour and I think AirTran is being pretty cocky considering Boeing is giving them the money for the planes anyways.
 
Guest

RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Tue Mar 04, 2003 7:09 pm

My sources are 717 people at Boeing.
 
FlagshipAZ
Posts: 3192
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 12:40 am

RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Tue Mar 04, 2003 11:13 pm

Has anyone noticed, beside me, that our investor/attorney member "Greg" has been strangely quiet on this topic? Usually he has something to say about the 717 program. How he wants the production line closed & a shopping mall put up where the LGB plant is. While I don't always agreed with him, his replies reflects the minority opinion. "Greg", hope you're okay somewhere. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
Greg
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Tue Mar 04, 2003 11:35 pm

Wow...I'm flattered. I'm fine.

I have no objection to the 717 line...as long as it makes money.
I dont' share the enthusiast view--only the financial one.
One of the original tenets of keeping Long Beach open for the 717 line was that it would remain profitable at 1.5 airframes/month. They have not been able to achieve that. Should orders keep the plant profitable at 2.5/airframes month I certainly would have no objection. It keeps people employed and a return on share price.

Still...even with marginal profitability--the land is worth far more than the program.

And yes, there are options to sell the land and build a shopping mall there. The zoning variances are available from the City of Long Beach.

 
FlagshipAZ
Posts: 3192
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 12:40 am

RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Wed Mar 05, 2003 12:28 am

Glad to see you're okay, Greg. I'm sure what you say has merit because I remember previously you've said the DC9/MD80/717 has not made a profit for Douglas, its shareholders, and now Boeing & its shareholders. If that the case, this line should have been shuttered a long time ago. But since 1967, these little twin-jets have been cranking out like rabbits. So something must be going right in management at LGB. It's true the numbers on profits & dividends do fluctuate a great deal, like any economy does. The land where the LGB plant is, I agree, is prime real estate...but the LGB airport cannot afford to give up any more space due to expansion of services at the moment. Many years ago the city of Long Beach grabbed land from the airport's perimeter thru eminent domain, altho I admit not knowing if the city owned the airport at the time. A sidenote here, the 717 program is not the only aircraft built at LGB...the C-17 program is there as well, plus I believe Boeing outfits the BBJs at LGB after being flown in from SEA. IMO, the 717 program is a 'sleeper hit'. Granted, I'm a 'enthusiast' towards the 717 from the viewpoint that it's David versus Goliath. The 717 may end up saving Boeing's hide someday.  Wink/being sarcastic
All of this summarizing is strictly my two cents worth. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
BestWestern
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Wed Mar 05, 2003 1:17 am

There are big problems with the European Star Alliance order - basically the airlines don't need the aircraft, SK and LH are parking fleet at present, not ordering more... JKK and BD are focusing on Airbus, and are seriously in debt - SK and LH wont invest more in new fleet for these carriers.

One carrier overlooked carrier is EI - they are re-evaluating fleet at present, and operate short hop high frequency routes. The 717 could replace the 735 and 734, A320 and 146 operations, leaving the A321/330 operation for Heathrow, USA, and sun routes. the Step down in size would allow EI to increase frequencies, and therefore competitive advantage...

Its a pity the 717 doesnt have STOL.... many regional airlines would look at it for their LCY operations - BE, WX, EI, LX all need a 146 replacement - and today no STOL aircraft in the 100+ seat category is in production.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
sllevin
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RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Wed Mar 05, 2003 1:21 am

Unless you don't believe Boeing (and, IMO, you're a fool if you don't), the 717 has been a money loser and continues to be a money-loser. As Greg alluded to, originally it was hoped that it could be profitable at 1.5 airframes per month, but that never worked out. Right now, the only reason the line remains open is that the penalties for closing it are greater than the losses incurred for fulfilling the outstanding orders. However, neither option makes Boeing money -- just a matter of which option loses less money.

And it's downright silly to say "management at LGB must be doing something right" for a company that was forced to merge with McDonnell due to financial distress (read: losing money) and then was purchased by Boeing (read: losing money).

While the DC-9/MD-80 lines made money overall, certainly, the 717 itself is a brutal failure. The odds of the 717 "saving Boeing's hide" are less than the odds of the DC-8 doing so (since the DC-8 no longer generates losses).

Steve
 
Greg
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Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:11 am

RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Wed Mar 05, 2003 1:34 am

Not to rain on your parade..but not one of MacDac's commericial ventures ever made a nickel. We've entered this argument before. Their full financial disclosure resulting from shareholder lawsuits of the purchase show this.

It's not to say that sales weren't successful! It has to do with the allocation of develpment costs to each individual airframe instead of writing off a portion in the period incurred (a la Boeing). Quite simply, the -8,-9,-10...and their more modern siblings were not able to be sold at a price that could overcome the continuous development and redevelopment debt (plus and enormous amount of interest). I imagine that MacDac and it's predecessor did this because gov;t contracts were accounted for in this way (cost+overrun cost=price of aircraft). It has nothing to do with the aircraft itself being economical....just whether it could be sold at a financial profit---which it couldn't.

Note that Boeing is getting a taste of this same 'medicine'....breakeven for the development of the 73NG's was originally estimated at roughly 500 airframes. Due to production issues and development cost allocations this has creeped well into the 900 airframe category....so what once once going to be their bread and butter bird...was having a bit of a struggle for many years. As still may cost more to produce than competing Airbus products.

Again, no hatred or ill will toward this machine. Just get the damn program on tract. I blame the sales force. If it IS as economical as people say (and that may be subject to debate) then there is a market. If not, kill it quickly and use the money for future development (i.e. 7E7).

Hopefully that clarifies my standing. See, I'm not that evil just because I have a law degree....
 Smile

 
Guest

RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Wed Mar 05, 2003 1:34 am

The reason for SK parking 736's is because they have a problem with porpoising and is unstable. SK wants 717s to replace the 736's and SAS was suppose to be one of the original 717 customers except MDC and Boeing merged which made the 717 an unsure plane at the time. LH is looking at the 717 for the commuter line, they want something slightly larger than CRJ-900. EI won't order the 717. They have shown no interest in it and will most likely go with either 737NG or Airbus. One problem Boeing has is they do not market the 717 well at all because it is "the ugly step child" of the Boeing family since it is a MDC plane originally.

Stephen
 
DIA
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 2:24 pm

RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Wed Mar 05, 2003 1:46 am

Is it fair to say the 717-300 is comparable to an updated version of a DC-9-50? In terms of pax loads and range? Or did the DC-9-50 have a greater range than the possible 717-300?
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
FlagshipAZ
Posts: 3192
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 12:40 am

RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Wed Mar 05, 2003 3:16 am

DIA, and anyone else that may be interested...
The 717, size-wise, is just about a foot shorter than the DC-9-40. Whereas the -40 has a range of roughly 1200 miles with 100 pax, the 712 has a 2000 mile range with the same 100 pax load. The DC-9-50 has a range of 1200 miles with a 120 pax load. The 713, if built, size-wise will be a longer than the -50, but shorter than a standard MD-80 fuselage. The 713 HGW should have the same range as the 712.
Greg & Sllevin...while I honestly respect your opinions, I stand by my statement saying the 717 is "the little engine that could".  Wink/being sarcastic Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
DIA
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 2:24 pm

RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Wed Mar 05, 2003 5:33 am

Thanks FlagshipAZ. I didn't even think of the DC-9-40. . .forgot about that one! Good info too!

DIA
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
717fan
Posts: 1980
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2001 10:51 am

RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Wed Mar 05, 2003 5:57 am

Actually Spanair is operating the 717 via its subsidiary Aebal/Spanairlink. And they are already planning to add more...
 
qantas747
Posts: 378
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2000 12:51 pm

RE: Boeing To Decide Mid-year On 717-300

Wed Mar 05, 2003 6:46 am

I think An 717-300 wouldn't be good as there are already too many that size on the market. On the other hand, a 717-100 could be worthwile, I mean, I think QANTAS would be intrested because they're looking to replace their Ageing BaE146's and they have been thoroughly impressed with the performace of the B712 ever since tyhey came into the QF fleet when impulse crashed.. I think Boeing would make more money out of a shorter one than a longer one..... mainly because there is already too much competition on the loger one.... I mean there really isn't any around the 80 seat market, except for the up and coming CRJ's I think boeing need to get a brain and find out what the market needs first.

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Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos