Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Pilot1113
Posts: 2276
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:42 pm

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 2:50 pm

>>how come no one addressed the issue of suicidal pilots?<<

Moot point, pilots have to go through a battery of physchological tests before they're considered to be hired for a FFO position.

Also, most suicidal people don't want to take others with them. They want to hurt those close to them indirectly to get their pleas for help because that's what suicide is -- a plea for help. Please don't ask me to go indepth in this subject because I could bury you.

The Egypt Air thing was an anomily. I don't foresee anything like that happening again, gun or no gun.

- Neil Harrison
 
A330
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 12:31 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 6:12 pm

I've noticed that most posters are from the U.S.
Well, here's my view as a European...
Guns in the cockpit are the biggest mistake yet made by the panicking U.S. aviation community and government.
It is again proof that the so deadly cowboy mentality is more alive than ever in th United States of America. NO guns should ever be allowed inside an aircraft. It is utterly insane to think that a pilot will be able to shoot a highjacker from his position which is the cockpit-seat.
Also, bulletproof cockpuit doors are one big joke, one shot from the toilet into the cockpit immediately kills the captain on B737 for example.
Funny how a country which claims to be the "freedom bringer" is in fact the one with the most restrictions and the biggest agressor of all. We in Europe are already waiting to see the consequences of your behaviour, let's only hope that we are not hurt in your own destuction. Act up now, open your eyes because the USA is heading towards a disaster far greater than 11/9/01...

A330

ps. I do not have agains anything against the US. only against it's mentality.

Shiek!
 
jhooper
Posts: 5561
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 6:22 pm

Also, bulletproof cockpuit doors are one big joke, one shot from the toilet into the cockpit immediately kills the captain on B737 for example.

I wouldn't give anyone any bright ideas here.


Act up now, open your eyes because the USA is heading towards a disaster far greater than 11/9/01...


Do you know about something that maybe we should tell the authorities?
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
JETPILOT
Posts: 3094
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 6:40 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:31 pm

Euro trash propadanda is what A330's post adds up to.

How does one person get a gun aboard an airplaneto shoot from the toilet? Have you flown lately?

Uterly insane to shoot from the pilot seat? Whatever...Maybe its you who are insane.  Nuts

P.S. I dont have anything against the people of Belgium only their mentality.

JET

 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:45 pm

NO guns should ever be allowed inside an aircraft

Hey A330.

Up until about two years ago, a rifle, pistol or shotgun and cartidges for the same where required to be carried on all aircraft operating within the state of Alaska.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Jeff G
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 9:56 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:46 pm

A330,

You miss the point of the door. It's not to protect the pilots from all possible harm. It's there to prevent entry. The bulletproof armor is to protect the door itself from being breached by fast-moving penetrating weapons (i.e. bullets). If by chance you happened to bring a weapon on board and you happened to shoot the captain through a bulkhead, then you as a terrorist still don't have control of the aircraft, and the FO will land the plane. Your anti-gun argument is then moot, since the rules of engagement for using the weapon were never present. In other words, the presence or absence of a gun in the cockpit is irrelevant to the outcome of this particular scenario. It's like saying you're against flashlights because you only intend to fly during the day.

BTW, you in Europe would be in a hell of your own making already if this "aggresive" freedom-loving nation hadn't bailed you out on multiple occasions. Don't push it.
 
tsentsan
Posts: 1921
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 10:48 pm

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:54 pm

Pilot1113 - I'm sure they did the test with Capt Tsu but he still crashed the plane.
NO URLS in signature
 
User avatar
clipper471
Head Editor
Posts: 611
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 6:44 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 10:11 pm

Re: Suicidal pilots... "Moot point, pilots have to go through a battery of physchological tests before they're considered to be hired for a FFO position. -- Pilot1113

Anyone remember the FedEx pilot that tried to overtake the crew of an MD-11 and crash it into FedEx headquarters at Memphis Int'l in the late 1990's?

[Edited 2003-04-20 15:14:59]
 
widebody
Posts: 1107
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2000 5:08 pm

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 10:47 pm

Jeff G.

A small clarification......the new doors are to delay, not to prevent......it is a requirement for the crash case that it must be possible to break down the door within 10 minutes with professional tools......secondly, the bullet proof cockpit door is not to prevent a bullet from an unauthorised weapon, it is designed to prevent a bullet from an authorised weapon i.e. sky marshall......therefore it will only protect against a certain range of projectile categories as laid down in AC 25-795-2.....this is also why the bulkheads are not reinforced.....

Rgds,
WB.
 
Pilot1113
Posts: 2276
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:42 pm

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 2:24 am

>>Anyone remember the FedEx pilot that tried to overtake the crew of an MD-11 and crash it into FedEx headquarters at Memphis Int'l in the late 1990's?<<

That pilot showed all the outward signs of being homicidal, in the months before the attempted hijacking. No one followed up on him or even mentioned that he should go in for psychological counciling.

If a person wants to commit suicide, they usually exhibit subtile signs of it. It's the jobs of their friends and family to pick up on this and offer help.

- Neil Harrison
 
J32driver
Posts: 385
Joined: Fri May 05, 2000 2:55 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 3:33 am

Fedex... deadheading crewmember attacks flight crew with axe and then with speargun. Maybe if the flight crew had a Glock sitting next to them, then after the first crewmember took it in the head with the axe, the second would have popped him with the Glock.

This happened with no gun in the cockpit. How is this relevant to an anti gun argument?
 
User avatar
clipper471
Head Editor
Posts: 611
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 6:44 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 3:40 am

This happened with no gun in the cockpit. How is this relevant to an anti gun argument?

Had this disturbed individual had today's license to carry a firearm he could have popped both pilots before they knew anything was up, and dived the MD-11 into FedEx headquarters as he intended.

Not to say that a disturbed individual would be granted such a license, but someone could receive a license when they are sane and later become suicidal.
 
J32driver
Posts: 385
Joined: Fri May 05, 2000 2:55 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 3:48 am

See Clipper... there you go proving that you don't have any knowledge of how this program actually works. Even if the deadheader is licensed and armed, unless he is sitting in the cockpit at the controls, he cannot have his gun with him. Thats fact.

 
jhooper
Posts: 5561
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 5:00 am

Let me ask you this? Why can't we trust pilots with guns just as much as we trust all these newbie Federal Air Marshals? If the pilots can successfully pass the training, I wouldn't worry about it. The pilots with guns program is a very worthwhile final line of defense.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
User avatar
clipper471
Head Editor
Posts: 611
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 6:44 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 6:51 am

See Clipper... there you go proving that you don't have any knowledge of how this program actually works. Even if the deadheader is licensed and armed, unless he is sitting in the cockpit at the controls, he cannot have his gun with him. Thats fact.

J32driver, thanks for being so diplomatic and respectful in your response. The point is that a pilot can be licensed when he is sane, and then later become suicidal. So maybe the deadheading pilot wouldn't have been allowed to carry a firearm on that FedEx flight-- but, he was obviously a DISTURBED pilot that was likely hired when he was sane.

Jhooper, I'm sure 99% of pilots CAN be trusted. But, their responsibility is to fly the aircraft. The cabin security should be left to the Air Marshall, his responsibilty.

As I also alluded to before... accidental discharge and hijackers killing passengers until pilots turnover their firearms (thereby arming the hijackers) are two other scenarios that are possible.

[Edited 2003-04-20 23:56:34]
 
jhooper
Posts: 5561
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 7:22 am

Clipper,


As I also alluded to before... accidental discharge and hijackers killing passengers until pilots turnover their firearms (thereby arming the hijackers) are two other scenarios that are possible.


As I've said before, these senereos have all been well thought out and there's a plan to deal with it.


Jhooper, I'm sure 99% of pilots CAN be trusted. But, their responsibility is to fly the aircraft. The cabin security should be left to the Air Marshall, his responsibilty.


The captain is responsible totally for the safety (and security) of the flight, period. To carry out these duties, he should be armed.

Dissenters are always entitled to their point of view. But respectfully, I agree to disagree.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
roadrunner165
Posts: 883
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2000 6:28 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 10:17 am

WHY GUNS???? WHY NOT SOMETHING LESS DEADLY LIKE TAZERS??
What happens if somebody is shot half way across the pacific? He would bleed to death before they got him to a hospital



Adam
NWA ROCKS!!!  Smile  Smile  Smile
AS ROCKS!!!  Smile  Smile  Smile
 
jhooper
Posts: 5561
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 2:42 pm

What happens if somebody is shot half way across the pacific? He would bleed to death before they got him to a hospital

Then he dies. He shouldn't have tried to force his way into the cockpit.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
ScooterTrash
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2001 10:39 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 4:30 pm

J32driver...

You said what I was to PC to say, but it is true. If there is a hijacker on board, the lives of the folks behind me are a secondary consideration. The rules have changed post 9/11. My job is now to keep my airplane from becoming a Weapon of Mass Destruction.

For all of you who continue to harp on the suicidal pilot scenario:

Get a grip... Remember Egypt Air? It can happen, and sometimes does. Not often, but that is the risk you take in any form of public transportation.

Airline pilots as a group are highly intellegent, well organized, disciplined and rather stable individuals. Trust me, you have to be stable to survive the schedules and the uncertainty of the lifestyle otherwise you would go insane very quickly. Outside of law enforcement, I can think of no other group of professionals that I would trust more than pilots to carry firearms safely. There are bad apples in every crowd, but professional standards folks and peer pressure tend to weed out the worst of them.
 
J32driver
Posts: 385
Joined: Fri May 05, 2000 2:55 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 10:32 pm

Yeah Scoot.... I guess that "PC" thing is something the company installs with the 4th stripe. I still have a little while to rebel.

I don't mean to disrespect ANYONE. I do truly believe though that in order to make an argument on THIS subject... an individual MUST be 100% informed. If your not, then just running around saying the sky is falling is not only distracting, its annoying.

1) Bullet holes DON'T bring down airplanes (or for that matter depressurize it)
2) SkyMarshalls are RARE on some flights
3) I pilot CAN turn around in his chair and shoot an intruder
4) A pilot WON'T leave the cockpit, no matter what happens in the cabin
5) If a pilot wanted to commit suicide, he doesn't need a gun to do it.

Keep the greasy side down!

 
User avatar
United_fan
Posts: 6691
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 11:11 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Mon Apr 21, 2003 11:38 pm

I read an article abou a group of pilots who completed training and are now allowed to carry onboard. I was wondering how said pilot goes through security?
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
roadrunner165
Posts: 883
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2000 6:28 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:52 am

Jhooper-

All I was saying was... Getting a clear shot on a airplane is next to impossiable. What happens if the pilot misses and hits a passanger!??

TAZERS would just shock the bloody bastartds, Harmless.  Smile


Adam
NWA ROCKS!!!  Smile  Smile  Smile
AS ROCKS!!!  Smile  Smile  Smile
 
J32driver
Posts: 385
Joined: Fri May 05, 2000 2:55 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 3:46 am

Problem with Tazers are they can be defeated by a thick leather jacket.
 
Whisperliner
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2000 8:56 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 4:25 am

"If a pilot wanted to commit suicide, he doesn't need a gun to do it."

...but it would make it easier right?

what about a scenario where terrorists claim to have a bomb in the luggage hold, and will detonate it if the firearm is not turned over. so do the pilots call the bluff?
 
vr-hkg
Posts: 231
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 7:32 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 4:42 am

>>Putting guns on aircraft merely ensures that there's *definitely* a gun on
>>the plane

>No it doesn't. Not all will have them.

That may be the dumbest comment I've ever seen. As you are well aware, I meant that if you put a gun on a specific plane, it guarantees there's a gun on the plane which could get into the hands of somebody with malicious intent.

>As a passenger, I will not knowingly fly on an aircraft where the pilots have
>guns.

>Then you don't have a thing to worry about. You won't know which have
>them and which won't.

I doubt it will be too long until it becomes clear which airlines have allowed this, and I won't be flying on those airlines unless I have no choice.
 
Boeing757/767
Topic Author
Posts: 2183
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 11:05 pm

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 4:49 am

Based on some of these comments, I will definitely fly Air Canada to/from Canada and European airlines across the Pond. They won't have guns in the cockpit. And I'd feel safer.
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
wingman
Posts: 4051
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 4:53 am

Guns in cockpits is quite possibly the number one all time gold medal stupid idea. Like many above have pointed out, there is now no need to bring a weapon on board because one will already be there. Two, the cockpit door is open during pre-flight as passengers board the plane. Perfect time for two expertly trained terrorists to seize two FAs, storm the cockpit, snap the one's neck and threaten the next until the gun is handed over. Methodically begin to shoot passengers until doors closed and plane takes off. Worst case scenario for the terrorists, an F16 blows the plane to hell at take-off. Net result is still the same, 150-200 people dead and Americans terrorized out of travel for another 2-3 years. I mean, I see these pilots practicing target shooting, most in their 40s and 50s with guts hanging over their belts. And I never see them training to shootover backwards over their shoulders as they're strapped into extremely confined spaces with lots of critical buttons around them. I do trust these men to fly an airplane but I do not trust them to pump lead into trained assailants willing to die happily for their cause as they sit strapped into a thin aluminum tube at 35,000 feet. It begs the question, how do some Americans in our government come up with this bullshit and still remember to breathe on a regular basis?

Solution: what happened to the armed fed marshalls, better trained, focused, and able to "see" the action with clear fields of fire.
 
Jeff G
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 9:56 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 4:56 am

"If a pilot wanted to commit suicide, he doesn't need a gun to do it."

...but it would make it easier right?


No. A flick of the wrist is all it would really take. A weapon is not necessary, messier, and takes longer. If a pilot really wanted to do so, it would be absurdly easy for him to crash the plane. The other pilot couldn't stop him; there'd be no time.

what about a scenario where terrorists claim to have a bomb in the luggage hold, and will detonate it if the firearm is not turned over. so do the pilots call the bluff?

Again, how would the terrorists know that the pilots have a weapon to hand over? If they don't know, then that would be a stupid gambit on their part.

Anyway, the answer to your question is: yes, you call the bluff, whether you are armed or not. You have nothing to gain and everything to lose if you open the cockpit door. If you open the door, you have to assume that they're going to kill you all anyway. If you bluff and guess right, nothing happens except you have some frustrated would-be terrorists. If you guess wrong, and they really do have a bomb, you all die, but that's no worse than opening the cockpit to them to begin with. The door does NOT open, under any circumstances. No what ifs will change that policy. And anyone who attempts to change that policy in flight will be shot, which is the sole purpose of a firearm in the cockpit. It wouldn't even be drawn in any other circumstance.
 
Jeff G
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 9:56 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:03 am

>No it doesn't. Not all will have them.

That may be the dumbest comment I've ever seen. As you are well aware, I meant that if you put a gun on a specific plane, it guarantees there's a gun on the plane which could get into the hands of somebody with malicious intent.


And I meant that a would-be terrorist would have no idea whether there was a gun on the plane or not, and couldn't plan on seizing one. My point is valid: not every plane will have a gun, and neither you nor a terrorist would know which is which.

>Then you don't have a thing to worry about. You won't know which have
>them and which won't.

I doubt it will be too long until it becomes clear which airlines have allowed this, and I won't be flying on those airlines unless I have no choice.


I wasn't clear. All US airlines will have some pilots who are armed. You just won't know which specific flights will have armed pilots.
 
Jeff G
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 9:56 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:13 am

Perfect time for two expertly trained terrorists to seize two FAs, storm the cockpit, snap the one's neck and threaten the next until the gun is handed over.

How would they know the pilots had guns? Many pilots won't carry one.

I mean, I see these pilots practicing target shooting, most in their 40s and 50s with guts hanging over their belts. And I never see them training to shootover backwards over their shoulders as they're strapped into extremely confined spaces with lots of critical buttons around them.

I doubt you've seen any pilot trained under the program practice shooting. They only trained the first batch last week, you know.
 
vr-hkg
Posts: 231
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 7:32 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:30 am

>And I meant that a would-be terrorist would have no idea whether there
>was a gun on the plane or not, and couldn't plan on seizing one. My point is
>valid: not every plane will have a gun, and neither you nor a terrorist would
>know which is which.

No, your point is still invalid for exactly the same reason as it was invalid before.

If most planes don't have guns onboard, then the supposed safety benefits of having guns on *any* plane are minimal, because would-be terrorists know that they have a strong likelihood that the plane they're on won't have a gun onboard. No positive impact.

If most planes do have guns onboard, then would-be terrorists know there is a strong likelihood that there is a weapon on the plane and can act accordingly. There is also a possibility that the terrorists can gain control of those guns, and you now have armed terrorists on a plane with no way for ground security procedures to catch them.

Either way, there is no positive effect - but there *is* a potential negative effect. Where is there any study (not influenced by a gun lobby, but an IMPARTIAL study) proving that giving guns to pilots positively impacts safety in any way? Why are we giving guns to pilots without studying the effects?

As has been pointed out by other posters, these pilots are not being trained to fire guns in an enclosed space, backwards over their shoulders, without killing a hostage, etc. They're being trained to fire guns at a piece of paper at a friendly distance away, that cannot hurt them - and then they get to take guns onboard and take away our safety.

As has also been pointed out, a single pilot can now draw that gun, fire it at the other crew member(s) in the cockpit, and hijack the plane himself or commit suicide - and there is no way for anybody else onboard to stop him.

It is a lot easier to disable a fellow crew member with a gun, than with your hands.

>I wasn't clear. All US airlines will have some pilots who are armed. You just
>won't know which specific flights will have armed pilots.

...in which case I will be flying a non-US carrier, wherever possible. My point stands - it will become clear which airlines are allowing this, and I will not travel on those airlines if I have a choice. If necessary, I will drive to a different airport to get onto an airline that doesn't risk my life by giving guns to pilots.
 
Jeff G
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 9:56 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:43 am

Either way, there is no positive effect

It's debatable... obviously. But I'll repeat an earlier comment regarding the deterrent value of firearms: would you live in a neighborhood that advertised itself as a guaranteed gun free neighborhood? And promised that no cops would patrol to violate the rule?

I think there is no very good solution, but this is better than the alternatives. Having some guns would make airlines more difficult targets than having no guns, and as you say, having *all* guns just might encourage a terrorist to count on it. Hopefully, they'll stick with other methods and leave airliners alone again, and no pilot will have cause to ever draw a weapon.

it will become clear which airlines are allowing this, and I will not travel on those airlines if I have a choice.

That would be a moot exercise. Airlines cannot prohibit their pilots from being trained as FFDO's and carrying their issued sidearms. Your odds are good though, that your pilots won't be armed. We now have 45 or so out of 90,000 pilots who are armed. But you won't know for sure. That's really the only value of the program: nobody will know which have firearms and which won't.
 
vr-hkg
Posts: 231
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 7:32 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:57 am

>It's debatable... obviously. But I'll repeat an earlier comment regarding the
>deterrent value of firearms: would you live in a neighborhood that advertised
>itself as a guaranteed gun free neighborhood? And promised that no cops
>would patrol to violate the rule?

No - but I would live (and have lived) in places where cops were allowed guns, but nobody else was. Your analogy is weak, because pilots are not cops, and nor should they be. I am fine with marshalls being on aircraft with guns, because they are properly trained, not identifiable by would-be hijackers, and they are not attempting to fly the plane. I am not fine with pilots having guns.

It is an easily-proven statistic that where guns are allowed to people other than law enforcement officials on the grounds of safety, innocent people are *more* likely to be shot, not less likely.

>I think there is no very good solution, but this is better than the
>alternatives. Having some guns would make airlines more difficult targets
>than having no guns, and as you say, having *all* guns just might
>encourage a terrorist to count on it. Hopefully, they'll stick with other
>methods and leave airliners alone again, and no pilot will have cause to ever
>draw a weapon.

What evidence is there to suggest that having guns will make airlines more difficult targets? I've seen none whatsoever. Let's stick to verifiable facts, not offer speculative statements as fact, please.

>That would be a moot exercise. Airlines cannot prohibit their pilots from
>being trained as FFDO's and carrying their issued sidearms. Your odds are
>good though, that your pilots won't be armed. We now have 45 or so out of
>90,000 pilots who are armed. But you won't know for sure. That's really the
>only value of the program: nobody will know which have firearms and which
>won't.

Incorrect. Airlines flying overseas will have to abide by the laws of the country or countries to which they are flying, and I will fly on non-US carriers that have to abide by laws overseas which do not allow their pilots to carry guns. If I have to travel inside the US, wherever possible I will do it by car, bus or train rather than fly on a US carrier that allows weapons on its aircraft.

There is no value whatsoever to the program. Potential hijackers knowing that they have a 99.9% chance of the pilots being unarmed will not even slightly be disuaded by this program. (That figure isn't just pulled out of thin air - 45 of 90,000 pilots is only 0.05%. Figure on average two pilots on each plane in modern aircraft, and you have a 0.1% chance of being on an aircraft with an armed pilot.)

Do you really think hijackers would care in the least that their suicide hijackings *might* fail because of an armed pilot on one out of every one thousand aircraft that they hijacked? Of course not.

This is a shameful PR exercise orchestrated by the gun lobby, nothing more.
 
Jeff G
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 9:56 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:58 am

As has also been pointed out, a single pilot can now draw that gun, fire it at the other crew member(s) in the cockpit, and hijack the plane himself or commit suicide - and there is no way for anybody else onboard to stop him.

Nobody could stop him from committing suicide by airplane regardless, including the other pilot. I talked about that in an earlier post. Also, a pilot wouldn't need to go through a rigorous screening process and a federal training program (and thus open himself to an incredible level of unwanted scrutiny) if all he wanted to do was disable the other pilot and hijack his own plane. It would be absurdly easy, nobody could stop him, and he wouldn't need to bring his own weapon to do it. Any airline pilot could. And that's all I'm going to say about that.

Airline pilots are in a position of great trust. The fact that these scenarios are all but unheard of is proof enough that that trust is well placed. The presence or absence of a defensive tool is irrelevent to this basic fact. You could just as well object to the presence of the crash axe.
 
vr-hkg
Posts: 231
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 7:32 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 6:02 am

Jeff said:

"Nobody could stop him from committing suicide by airplane regardless, including the other pilot. I talked about that in an earlier post. Also, a pilot wouldn't need to go through a rigorous screening process and a federal training program (and thus open himself to an incredible level of unwanted scrutiny) if all he wanted to do was disable the other pilot and hijack his own plane. It would be absurdly easy, nobody could stop him, and he wouldn't need to bring his own weapon to do it. Any airline pilot could. And that's all I'm going to say about that."

Rubbish. With at least one other pilot on the plane (and on a long-haul flight, potentially several other pilots), it is quite possible for the other pilot(s) to prevent a suicidal pilot from crashing the plane. No, they won't always manage to, but it is possible. Give the pilots a gun though, and in one pull of a trigger a suicidal pilot can kill another pilot on the first shot. You now have potentially nobody else on the aircraft who can prevent that suicidal pilot crashing the plane.

At the very least, it will be a *lot* easier for a suicidal pilot to achieve his or her aims.
 
Jeff G
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 9:56 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 6:09 am

This is a shameful PR exercise orchestrated by the gun lobby, nothing more.

As you say, please stick to verifyable facts, please. I for one am no tool of the NRA, and neither are the pilots who are pushing the issue (I know some of them personally).

I don't own a gun, have never owned a gun, and probably will never own a gun. I likely will not volunteer for the FFDO program. I still think that it's a good idea from a deterrence standpoint, since eventually an estimated 30% of pilots will be armed. (I suspect next time, they'll just bomb something, which is easier and cheaper than hijacking). I don't think that it will have any negative effect on safety. Just as with Air Marshals, who keep their weapons holstered under cover, I never expect even to view a weapon out of its holster in the cockpit.

Since I have nothing further to offer you, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
 
Jeff G
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 9:56 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 6:21 am

Rubbish. With at least one other pilot on the plane (and on a long-haul flight, potentially several other pilots), it is quite possible for the other pilot(s) to prevent a suicidal pilot from crashing the plane. No, they won't always manage to, but it is possible. Give the pilots a gun though, and in one pull of a trigger a suicidal pilot can kill another pilot on the first shot. You now have potentially nobody else on the aircraft who can prevent that suicidal pilot crashing the plane.

I won't go into details here, but you're mistaken. If a pilot really wanted to, he could crash the plane in a second or two, no action possible by the other pilot. You don't need to be at altitude to destroy the plane and everyone on board. Any altitude above 100 feet is more than sufficient. Nuff said.

If the suicidal pilot really wanted to make the screaming dive into oblivion, there are many opportunites to disable the other pilot and lock the door. Sepcific details are unseemly, but trust me, it wouldn't be at all difficult, especially with just the typical two pilots alone in the cockpit.

However, the fact that it's nearly unheard of is reason enough to not worry about it.
 
User avatar
clipper471
Head Editor
Posts: 611
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 6:44 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 7:54 am

"But I'll repeat an earlier comment regarding the deterrent value of firearms: would you live in a neighborhood that advertised itself as a guaranteed gun free neighborhood? And promised that no cops would patrol to violate the rule?"

Law Enforcement Officer vs. Commercial Air Transport Pilot?


How bout this... would you live in a neighborhood that advertised itself as a guaranteed gun free neighborhood? And promised that no pilots would violate the rule? --- yes. Nothing against pilots, but it just isn't their job to be the neighborhood cop.

[Edited 2003-04-22 01:08:04]
 
J32driver
Posts: 385
Joined: Fri May 05, 2000 2:55 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 10:08 am

Jeff G... you realize your aurguing guns with an internet consultant and an editor? Somehow this makes them more qualified than a pilot on this issue.

Sorry guys... but unless you do the job on a day to day basis, YOUR OPINON DOESN'T COUNT!
 
Jeff G
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 9:56 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 11:03 am

How bout this... would you live in a neighborhood that advertised itself as a guaranteed gun free neighborhood? And promised that no pilots would violate the rule? --- yes. Nothing against pilots, but it just isn't their job to be the neighborhood cop.

The pilot in my example is the homeowner who is guaranteed to be disarmed, not the cop on patrol. The cops in my example can't patrol because, sadly, there are no cops at altitude, the occasional Air Marshal notwithstanding.

As for me, I would not live in a neighborhood that advertises itself as having no guns. That's just asking for a break-in. The cops, invited or not, can't be everywhere at once, just as the Air Marshals aren't, and I see no reason to advertise my vulnerability. The homeowner is ultimately responsible for his own security and that of his family. It can't be delegated. I hope you see the parallel so I don't have to spell it out.
 
Whisperliner
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2000 8:56 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 4:16 pm

"Jeff G... you realize your aurguing guns with an internet consultant and an editor? Somehow this makes them more qualified than a pilot on this issue.

Sorry guys... but unless you do the job on a day to day basis, YOUR OPINON DOESN'T COUNT!"

since when does becoming a pilot qualifies one as a gun expert? As stated earlier, the pilot should stick with what he is qualifed for- flying the plane.

besides..if the terrorists had the ablitiy to breach the flight deck door in the first place (which would take considerable effort) -then what makes a crew of 2 armed with one pistol (12 shots?) think that they can bring down 5 terrorist (probably armed as well- maybe even with better weapons)?
 
User avatar
usair330
Posts: 706
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2002 12:48 pm

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 4:24 pm

Pilots with guns is not at all a problem to me. I trust my local police force with guns so why not pilots. Alot of people in America depend on the police when it comes to an emergency they can't handle themselves. So if you trust the police why not a pilot. And if pilots shouldn't carry guns then why cops or anyone in the Military.
 
vr-hkg
Posts: 231
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 7:32 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 4:59 pm

Your local police force are properly trained for the instance in which they are going to use their weapons, and they don't have to fly a plane whilst they're trying to shoot somebody. These pilots are not being properly trained. Unless they are being trained to shoot somebody approaching from behind in a restricted space, whilst seated and belted into that seat, then the training is near to meaningless.

Jeff G chooses to completely ignore any constructive opposition of this rule, and is blinkered to the truth - so he is drawing completely irrelevant analogies. Jeff, have you ever lived in a community that was gun-free? I have, and I strongly doubt you have - so your analogy means nothing.
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2809
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:32 pm

As a foreigner, this entire concept strikes me as, well, completely insane. But that aside, I have a few questions.

1) Don't pilots go through the same security screening procedures as passengers, for all to see? If so, then wouldn't the required procedures dealing with a pilot carrying a gun alert passengers watching that their pilot was armed?

2) Is this just for domestic US flights? Surely there would be legal ramifications for US airlines flying overseas to countries that don't allow firearms on aircraft at all (which I believe is every other country on earth - correct me if I'm wrong).

3)WHAT THE HELL??!!! ARE YOU NUTS!?!

I have travelled several times between New Zealand and Europe, with about half of those trips going through Asia and the other half through North America. In future, I will avoid all contact with US airlines, or ANY airline that allows their pilots to be armed. As a passenger, this defies all reasoning.

It seems to be just another reason to fear boarding a plane. Have guns made society any safer than it was? So how do you think it will do the same for airlines?
 
User avatar
usair330
Posts: 706
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2002 12:48 pm

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:46 pm

This is for the safety and confidence of not only Americans but anyone that travels to the U.S. Maybe if the U.S wasn't the only target of terroist and they hit all around the world (Luckily they didn't) everyone would have the same point of view, that guns in the cockpit is the best choice.
 
A330
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 12:31 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 8:19 pm

The EU is planning to FORBID US-registered aircraft to fly over their Airspace if guns are carried by the pilots! Well done!
If these nutcases want to play cowboy, OK, but not over my country!
Anyway, more reasons for us Europeans to laugh with your insane President and his patheticly stupid government.
Call me Euro-trash, but at least I can still think of my own instead of being a slave of fear and misguided patriotism.
Shiek!
 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2002 12:48 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 9:00 pm

Call me Euro-trash, but at least I can still think of my own instead of being a slave of fear and misguided patriotism.

You are certainly not Euro-trash, but a well thinking individual who don't let himself mislead by the propaganda machine.

The paranoia is indeed disgusting.

/Frederic
 
Boeing757/767
Topic Author
Posts: 2183
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 11:05 pm

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 9:23 pm

J32 driver --

We're all passengers, and our opinion DOES count. As stated above a number of times, people will boycott U.S. airlines because of the potential for a gun.
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
teva
Posts: 1783
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 12:31 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 10:03 pm

Boeing757/767
I 200% agree with you. In June, I will not fly with a US airline when I come to the States.

My opinion about guns in cokpit? Just remember the Fedex flight when a jumpseating crewmember attacked his 3 colleagues with a hammer.
Replace the hammer by a gun. Then, instead of badly injured crewmembers able to land safely, you have a DC10 crashed on the FDX Memphis hub, hundreds of people killed, and thousands loosing their job.

Do not take Sept 11 as an excuse for stupid things.
Teva
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
J32driver
Posts: 385
Joined: Fri May 05, 2000 2:55 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Tue Apr 22, 2003 10:10 pm

You people are so misguided.

For starters... A330... If you were educated on the subject you'd know that president Bush is opposed to guns in the cockpit. The reason it has taken so long to get them is because of his opposition. So any slams against our "cowboy" president are flat wrong!

Whisperliner... in your scenario what difference does NOT having a gun make? With 12 bullets I MIGHT get all 5 terrorists. With no gun and no bullets, I will FOR SURE not get any of them. You prove my point for me. Thank you.

For those of you that wish to boycott US airlines... do you also boycott the several US states that have concealed carry permits for its residents when you come visit the US? If you wish to move around the US, do you plan on driving from NY to CA? There is lots of great scenerey in between. About 6 days worth.

That brings up another point. When FL introduced concealed carry for its residents, violent crimes dropped 12%. Things changed for thugs when grandma might be packing a .38 special.

Vr-hkg... you make a flat statement that these pilots aren't being trained properly. WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU HAVE OF THAT?

I understand the European opposition to guns. I lived in Germany for almost 4 years. It was nice living in a society where there was like 12 shootings a year in the whole country. Unfortuantely the US isn't like that, and our skies aren't like that any more. Pandora's box is open. Now we just have to find the best solution to protect the plane and the people on the ground that it might harm.

By the way... I have YET to hear a VALID argument against guns in the cockpit... Please insert another quarter and try again.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], CMHFlyer, hitower3, HUYfan, Interflug74, NJFlyer27, oakleaf1, PA515, Pcoder, pnut, qf002, robr, RoyalBrunei757, Runway28L, SkyLife, Steelhead, toobz, tphuang, Updraft27, vhtje and 373 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos