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Boeing757/767
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Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Fri Apr 18, 2003 6:08 am

Not to rehash an old subject, but I noticed that the TSA is in the process of training its first group of commercial pilots to carry guns in the cockpit. Those pilots can begin carrying those guns next week.

The question, then, is why guns are needed when all carriers have fortified the cockpit doors?
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
jhooper
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Fri Apr 18, 2003 6:11 am

So pilots can pump lead into terrorists like they diserve!
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
vr-hkg
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Fri Apr 18, 2003 6:11 am

The answer is that they're not *needed* - in fact, I'd argue that having guns on planes will merely raise the chances of injuries and deaths, if not the chances of the gun getting into the hands of somebody with malicious intent.

This is being done for a combination of reasons, none of which have anything to do with *real* safety - just the illusion of safety.
 
brianhames
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Fri Apr 18, 2003 6:39 am

Its a fail-safe theory. Cockpit doors are not guarenteed invincible, so in the event that a door is breached, there is another vestage of defense.

Brian
 
dl1011
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Fri Apr 18, 2003 6:47 am

Why have firearms? Maybe pilots are like everyone else and need to get to the lav now and then. Or maybe a cup of coffee. Or maybe a meal. Or maybe the door wont stop the bad guys.
 
vr-hkg
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Fri Apr 18, 2003 7:00 am

Putting guns on aircraft merely ensures that there's *definitely* a gun on the plane for the terrorists to get their hands on. There is no "fail safe" - merely the pretension of safety through the addition of an added element of danger.

As a passenger, I will not knowingly fly on an aircraft where the pilots have guns.
 
jmc1975
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Fri Apr 18, 2003 7:23 am

Why not have guns when the doors won't do?
.......
 
Jeff G
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Fri Apr 18, 2003 7:25 am

Putting guns on aircraft merely ensures that there's *definitely* a gun on the plane

No it doesn't. Not all will have them.

As a passenger, I will not knowingly fly on an aircraft where the pilots have guns.

Then you don't have a thing to worry about. You won't know which have them and which won't.
 
b757300
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Fri Apr 18, 2003 7:26 am

Guess you won't be flying much anymore as you'll never know which aircraft might have one. Amazing how you people will trust the pilots with your life, the lives of your loved ones, and yet you are stead fast against them carrying a firearm. Many pilots are ex-military and are already well qualified on multiple firearms. Also, in case you didn't know, for decades, pilots were required to carry a weapon on certain flights.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
avroarrow
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Fri Apr 18, 2003 7:52 am

Wasn't there a news story kicking around a couple of years ago about an electronic safety on handguns? Basically the weapon would not fire unless it was held by a person wearing a digitally encoded ring on their finger. Something like this would seem a good idea to prevent the wrong people from using the captains gun.
Give me a mile of road and I can take you a mile. Give me a mile of runway and I can show you the world.
 
2912n
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Fri Apr 18, 2003 7:55 am

The "electronic" safety is an idea, generally directed to law enforcement, that has not actually come to pass. It is an idea that sounds good but has not proven practical.
 
ScooterTrash
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Fri Apr 18, 2003 10:57 am

As an avid shooter myself, I have gone both ways on the "guns on the flight deck issue". What it really boils down to is this: On September 11, 2001, some, if not all of the hijackings that occurred could have been foiled by armed flight crew. That settles it for me. Safety in redundancy is a hallmark of my profession. A good door and a trained, armed flight crew virtually ensures that a 9/11 type scenario will not occur again.

As for you, VR-hkg, If you have flown any amount your life has been in the hands of professionals who made thousands of decisions that directly effected your continued existence on this earth. To think that you would actually be worried how we would conduct ourselves around firearms is laughable, if not a little insulting. Get a grip!
 
jhooper
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Fri Apr 18, 2003 11:42 am

I have a somewhat related (but kinda wierd) question.

As the Pilot In Command, can the captain overrule a Federal Air Marshall? For example, recall that Delta flight during the olympics where a FAM ordered all passengers to put their hands on their heads while he held them all at gunpoint. Not that he necessarily would, but could the captain legally use his PIC authority order the FAM to stand down from such a posture. (or even arrest the FAM)?
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
Beefmoney
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Fri Apr 18, 2003 11:57 am

I am pro-guns in the cockpit. When the aircraft is in flight, the flight crew has the sole responsibilty of getting hundreds of passengers to their destination safely. Why should we not give pilots every opprotunity to protect their precious load of souls?

I mean, we routinely allow pilots to land hundreds of passengers at an airport where you cannot see the ground until you are 200 feet above terra firma in an aircraft capable of destroying and killing many many hundreds more. So chalk up quite a many hundreds of lives that are routinely placed in the hands of airline pilots. Yet, we do not feel it safe to allow them to carry a gun?

I, for one, will feel safer with an armed pilot on-board.
 
Pilot1113
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Fri Apr 18, 2003 2:25 pm

Two of the 9/11 flights took off from my home city of Boston and crashed into NYC (a city I regard as my second home). I met Captain John Ogonowski on a flight back in December 2000 when he flew my family out to LAX. Since I'm angling for a pilot job in the future, I believe I have a personal stake invested here.

I believe guns should have been a required item way before 9/11. I remember writing a paper advocating the use of firearms to deter air rage in high school. My belief was further augmented by the near disaster of an Alaskan Airlines plane that almost went into the drink after a demented individual almost managed to subdue the flight crew. I believed that if a passenger knew that a pilot had a gun and was trained and willing to use the firearm then he/she wouldn't be so quick to beat up the flight crew.

As I learn more and more about the hijacking scenario, the only way that I can think of to stop them would be to have a gun in the cockpit. It's easy for these armchair pilots to object to this tactic when it's not their ass on the line day in and day out. Do you know who's sitting next to you?

If you think the TSA is the holy grail that is going to stop a potential hijacker, you're in candy land. When the TSA isn't roughing up properly credentialed flight crews and old ladies, they're failing FAA and DOT tests. In fact when they were tested last July they had an 80-90% failure rate! That's just as bad, if not worse, than the rent-a-cops we had before. As of today, there is nothing to suggest that anything has changed. Sure the next hijacker isn't going to carry something as egregious as a box cutter, but a credit card whittled down to a knife can do just as much damage and last time I checked the TSA doesn't check wallets.

Also, I haven't been flying recently (last flight I took was in January) and I noticed that on my flights the cockpit doors still weren't reinforced (unless you count a bar as reinforcement). If they are, a reinforcement is akin to the watertight doors on the Titanic to a determined hijacker; they buy you time and time only.

Thirdly, it has been stated that for the sky marshall program to be truly effective they need to have 4-5 marshalls PER FLIGHT. Since there are around 4,000-5,000 flights airborne at a peak time that would mean that the TSA would need to employ around 16,000-25,000 marshalls at a minimum. Let's just double that number to around 50,000 for misconnects, vacation time, sick time, and shift change. For comparison the Secret Service employs only 5,000 agents in TOTAL for their duel missions of counterfeiting and protection of dignitaries.

In summation, the only true way to make 100% certain that there is a way to fight back is to arm the pilots. If a hijacker manages to gain control of that weapon, well then all is lost. Isn't all lost if he manages to breach the door and subdue the pilots anyhow? At least this way we have a chance to change the outcome.

Thank you for your time.

- Neil Harrison
 
LV
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Fri Apr 18, 2003 3:33 pm

You know, if the arguement is we need a gun on board as a last line of defense, the what happened to all of these air marshalls we were hiring?
 
Pilot1113
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Fri Apr 18, 2003 8:54 pm

>>the what happened to all of these air marshalls we were hiring?<<

In the days, weeks and months following the creation of TSA they hired a lot of air marshalls. The poor scheduling led to a deterioation in the ranks. Many marshalls would be scheduled for up to 36 hours straight while others would sit at home on their hands.

Others complained that they were hindered by having to adhere to a dress code (polo shirt and khakis -- very easy to spot if you're looking especially in the winter time). They also complained that they weren't allowed to sit where they wanted.

All in all, the marshall program is sinking rather quickly. I have really no faith in the TSA to do much of anything except to be a black hole for my tax dollars (like any other agency).

- Neil Harrison
 
777236ER
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Fri Apr 18, 2003 9:33 pm

B757300, I trust a pilot with my life because he is trained to do that.

He's not trained to use a gun in a combat situation, and a bit of recursive training every 6 months won't make me feel any more secure.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
L-188
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Fri Apr 18, 2003 9:34 pm

I would ask,

Why have doors if guns will do?
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
BeltwayBandit
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Fri Apr 18, 2003 11:03 pm

Will flight crew bring a gun with them to the lav? I sure hope not. I trust crew to have and use a gun in the cockpit assuming the cockpit door was breached, but I would NEVER want that gun out of the cockpit in flight. Walking through a crowded aircraft with a sidearm is a recipe for disaster.
 
Pilot1113
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sat Apr 19, 2003 2:44 am

>>Why have doors if guns will do?<<

Both are part of the security system. We need both. The door buys one time to get the plane on the ground. If we manage to get the plane on the ground before the door is breached, then thank god.

The guns will only be used if someone manages to breakdown the door. We want some way to fight back and defend the cockpit should the door not hold.

- Neil Harrison
 
Boeingfan
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sat Apr 19, 2003 5:24 am

Why doors when guns will do?

When the first gun gets out of the control of the assigned pilot, and possible tragedy, then what will happens?

Arm the passengers!
 
heavymetal
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sat Apr 19, 2003 5:46 am

On September 11, 2001, some, if not all of the hijackings that occurred could have been foiled by armed flight crew.

With respect, Scooter, they could have been foiled by armed gate agents too. Or armed xray screeners. Or armed janitors emptying trash in the terminals that morning.

Hindsight is 20/15, crystal clear, and any number of chances could have passed to whack those guys. But the biggest weapon the "9/11 nineteen" used was not box cutters or razor blades....it was our complacency. Those four cockpit crews were trained to give them what they wanted. There hadn't been a major hijacking in the US in , what, 15 years? Longer?

Take the same guys and act out the exact same scenario today, and none of them would have lived long enough to get through the door, let alone into the cockpit. They may have taken out a few people in the process, but we know now what Arab hijackers in the US want to do with the aircraft don't we? Die with no hope , slamming into something, or, buy yourself a chance & die killing them. File that one under "easy choice".

9/11 has been used to justify a lot of really bad ideas. Guns in the cockpit is just one of them. We can only hope that the first truly idiotic example of why that is doesn't kill 200 people proving it..
 
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clipper471
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sat Apr 19, 2003 5:53 am

"On September 11, 2001, some, if not all of the hijackings that occurred could have been foiled by armed flight crew. "

Had the scumbag known that pilots carried a firearm then I'm sure the plan would have been different as to how they accessed the cockpit.... a scenario such as one holds a knife to a passengers throat and demands the pilot hand over his firearm to his accomplice in return for releasing the hostage. Don't comply and the scumbag slits a hostages throat, and then takes another passenger hostage again demanding the firearm turned over. This process repeats until the pilot turns over his firearm. How can the pilot know once his firearm is surrendered that he will be shot, and the jet used as a missile? What would you do in such a situation, without the knowledge of 9/11 ("surrender your firearm or I'll kill him")?

It is just this scenario I fear now that firearms are allowed onboard. Scumbag now can plan for possibly taking over the pilots firearm.

Something else to now worry about is acccidental discharge inflight. Accidents happen. Worse even... a distraugt pilot with personal, health, or employment problems kills his co-pilot and takes the aircraft into a dive. Anyone see the film "Broken Arrow", with our hero John Travolta along with Christian Slater?

[Edited 2003-04-18 22:57:56]
 
sharpnfuzzy
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sat Apr 19, 2003 6:01 am

Others complained that they were hindered by having to adhere to a dress code (polo shirt and khakis -- very easy to spot if you're looking especially in the winter time). They also complained that they weren't allowed to sit where they wanted.

Who are these clowns running the TSA. They made a dress code for someone who is supposed to blend into the crowd. That has to be the stupidest thing i have ever heard in my life.
 
elwood64151
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sat Apr 19, 2003 10:28 am

Without reading any of the responses, I'm going to make my statement.

Guns are going to be carried in the cockpit because there are a bunch of pilots who want to go play cowboy and feel like a "real man".

NO ONE, short of a person carrying a police badge and having a reason to carry a firearm (such as prisoner escort or Federal Air Marshall) should be allowed to carry a firearm on board a passenger aircraft. EVER.

And I'm a right-wing, gun-toting, "You'll take my gun from my cold, dead, lifeless hands", Second Amendment Card in my breast-pocket, NRA nut-case.

Pilots should be concerned with flying the plane. If a terrorist (or group therof) attempt to take the plane over, the pilot should simply land and get the Hell off, leaving the cockpit doors locked, and in fact he should probably smash the controls with the fire axe so the Terrorists can't fly even if they break down the doors!

But who listens to me? I'm just a college student.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
Pilot1113
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sat Apr 19, 2003 11:42 am

Urgh...

Guys, I have debunked most, if not all, of your anti-gun arguements. Yet, you still argue the same points. Could we stop this cycle? It's frustrating to me. Are you not reading what I said or just ignoring them?

Here we go again:

1.) "Guns are going to be carried in the cockpit because there are a bunch of pilots who want to go play cowboy and feel like a "real man"."

That won't happen. Sure the pilots will be carrying a sidearm. The absolute only time that it will discharged is when some maniac manages to breakdown the door before the plane is on the ground. At no time will we delay trying to get the plane on the ground to play John Wayne in the cabin. No pilot will venture outside the cockpit with guns blazing. Again, they will only be used if someone manages to breach the door. It's just an additional layer of security. We don't want to pin our hopes on just the door. We want some way to protect persons/property both on board and on the ground.

2.) "When the first gun gets out of the control of the assigned pilot, and possible tragedy, then what will happens?"

Then all is lost, then the US Navy or Air Force has every right to shoot down civilian airliners. Wouldn't all be lost anyhow if the door was breached without the pilots having a way of at least trying to defend the cockpit?

3.) "But cockpit doors are almost invincible now."

Keyword: almost. The fact remains that the cockpit doors aren't invincible -- they merely buy the pilots time to get the plane on the ground. The new cockpit doors are akin to the watertight doors on the Titanic; they buy time and time only. The doors aren't a savior for this problem.

Again, what happens if the door is breached before the pilots have a chance to get the plane on the ground? Do we just throw up our hands and say "oh well?" I want to know there is at least someway of preventing another 9/11 without having to resort to shooting a civilian airliner down.

4.) "Another thing just "popped" into my head. Instead of training pilots on how to fire a gun, train them in the art of violent midair manouvers. to disorientate the terrorists, Its hard to stand up in an turbulant aircraft as it is, why not add a little more force to knock them off their feet."

You would have to be naieve to believe that we wouldn't do that. However, there is a downside to this -- while wildly carieening across the sky and doing these various maneuvers only increases the time the plane is in the air. The name of the game is getting the plane on the ground ASAP. Rommel 8s aren't going to put the plane on the ground in the shortest amount of time possible.

This could also backfire and make a determined person even more angry and it could severely damage the plane. Transport catagory aircraft are not made for acrobatic maneuvers. Parts will break off and make a safe landing almost impossible if the wrong parts are broken off.

- Neil Harrison

 
Whisperliner
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sat Apr 19, 2003 5:56 pm

well...you also trust your doctor with your life, do you trust him with a gun?
 
atenara
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sat Apr 19, 2003 5:59 pm


Because, the pilots want the extra protection!
its that simple!
 
cedarjet
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sat Apr 19, 2003 9:04 pm

This thread shows the worst side of America: guns solve problems. Get it through your heads: guns are not the answer. In Britain, not even the POLICE carry guns. Take some knowledge.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
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clipper471
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sat Apr 19, 2003 11:56 pm

Would it be lawful for an airline to promote themselves as having "gun free cockpits" in hopes of attracting passengers that have that concern? Can an airline stipulate that its pilots NOT be a part of this federal program?

If airfares for the same segments were identical in cost for two different airlines, I would chose the airline that promoted themselves this way.

[Edited 2003-04-19 16:57:55]
 
Jeff G
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 12:42 am

Would it be lawful for an airline to promote themselves as having "gun free cockpits" in hopes of attracting passengers that have that concern? Can an airline stipulate that its pilots NOT be a part of this federal program?

No, actually, they can't. They don't have to like the idea or support it, but they can't prohibit it. That's built into the law.

BTW, would you live in a neighborhood that advertised itself as a guaranteed gun free neighborhood? And promised that no cops would patrol to violate the rule? I wonder what that would do to the crime rate there.

well...you also trust your doctor with your life, do you trust him with a gun?

When was the last time a doctor's office was hijacked for use as a method of mass murder?
 
widebody
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 7:50 am

The regulations state that the new doors must delay entry, not prevent it. SFAR 92-5 is the latest issue, on the FAA website.

Rgds,
WB.
 
nonrevman
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:02 am

I wonder how this is going to work with the TSA checkpoints? It would seem ID's are going to be checked very carefully and having a pilot go through with a weapon could be a lengthy process. Knowing TSA, they would probably confiscate a fingernail clipper from an armed pilot.
 
JETPILOT
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:02 am

If the door stops entry into the cockpit then Amen...

If it doesnt....



I will be the final authority to contend with....

JET
 
777236ER
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:07 am

Jetpilot, why do the hijackers even need to be armed? The guns are already on board.

Off the top of my head, the easiest thing to do is this. Hijackers stand up. Pilots won't open the door. Hijackers start executing flight attendants until the door is opened and the pilots disarm themselves. Either you've got a plane load of dead people, or the door is opened.

It won't help...
Your bone's got a little machine
 
jhooper
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:10 am

Chill 777236ER. These pilots have undergone extensive training, and I'm sure your senereo has been discussed in detail. There's a plan to deal with it. At least the number killed won't ever exceed number listed on the passenger manifest.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
JETPILOT
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:17 am

If they get through the cockpit door you will have a plane load of dead people plus a city skyline missing 2 skyscrappers, a hole in the pentagon, and a jetliner in a Pennsylvania field.

The mentality you have to have is that the people on the plane are already written off. What we are trying to prevent is the further use of that airplane to do further damage.

They can kill all the people on the plane but we will land the plane, and they will be held responsible for their actions.

The passengers will quickly figure out the situation and realize they have to defend themselves a they did on that United flight.... the difference being the flight deck security will not be compromised, because I will kill anyone who comes through that door.

The procedure for opening the cockpit door is thus... NEVER open the cockpit door. I'm sorry for whatever is happening in the back. But my responsibility is to protect the cockpit at any cost. A firearm will ensure that happens.

JET

[Edited 2003-04-20 01:27:01]
 
Jeff G
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:48 am

Jetpilot,

Now THAT'S a pilot accessory. Much more useful than the watch.  Big grin


777236ER,

The problem with your scenario, and every scenario that starts with "The hijackers don't have to bring their own weapons, since the weapons are already on board..." is that not every pilot will carry weapons. Do you think that a well-trained suicide team will leave that to chance? How would they know? And if they did get "lucky", and one of the pilots is armed, do you really think they'll talk the pilot out of the cockpit? Think about it. As brutal and ugly as the bad guys can be, they have only a limited time to succeed. If they start killing hostages, and somehow avoid being torn apart by the remaining passengers (who would be acting against unarmed hijackers, remember), they still have a short period of time before the pilots land and make it a moot exercise. The "wearing down an armed pilot's resolve with flight attendant screams" theory might work if they had all day, but 20-30 minutes is all it takes to get on the ground and let the pros handle the rest. The pilots will know that a certain end to the bastards is very near, just a landing away, so there's no reason whatsoever to open that door and mete out justice prematurely. The greater duty is to the thousands of people at a target on the ground, not the few dozen that the bastards may have the opportunity to kill in the plane. That's a hard decision to make, but that would be part of the process that an armed pilot undergoes. Of course, if the pilots aren't armed, then the process is exactly the same, and the door still doesn't open.

The gun is there as last ditch defense in case the plan is to breach the door by force. It's not a perfect solution, but it's better than the Sidewinder theory of mass murder prevention, i.e. shoot down the plane, which is all you're left with if they get control of the cockpit, gun or no gun.
 
J32driver
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 9:06 am

Right on Jetpilot.

Sorry folks... but if there is a terrorist on board, as far as I'm concerned everyone in back is dead. They can kill the flight attendant, then start with the passengers and it doesn't matter. By the time they run out of people, I'll have my airplane on the ground. If they decide they are coming through my brand new reinforced door... I'll shoot them in the process... while my FO lands the plane.

For everyone on here that is not an airline pilot. Please... Sit down... show some respect to my flight attendant... enjoy the safe flight... and then thank my crew when we get you safely to your destination. Other than that, I don't want to hear what you think on guns in the cockpit. Its a reality that you have to deal with now. If you don't want to fly, then you can take the 1 week cruise accross the Atlantic.

Good Day!
 
JETPILOT
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 9:50 am

I'm glad some people think clearly and rationally.

If the gun jams I can always take to watch off and beat them senseless with it. It's quite heavy.  Big thumbs up

JET
 
JETPILOT
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 10:28 am

Have we forgotten already?



If these pilots could have defended themselves the outcome likely would have been very different.

JET
 
b757300
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 10:38 am

JETPILOT, you have to remember something about certain people on this forum. Some think no one should be allowed to carry a gun. Others celebrated on Sept. 11th, some even admitted it on this forum.

The majority of Americans support pilots carrying guns and this forum doesn't represent the majority of Americans so I would just blow them off. We already trust our lives to those of your profession when we board the plane and we trust you enough to carry a sidearm.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
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clipper471
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 11:23 am

Should we also arm school teachers to prevent further school shootings and gang activity?

[Edited 2003-04-20 04:24:14]
 
Jeff G
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RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 11:31 am

Should we also arm school teachers to prevent further school shootings and gang activity?

Only if schoolrooms could be crashed into other buildings at 500 kts. If it were just the passengers at risk, this wouldn't be necessary.
 
JETPILOT
Posts: 3094
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 6:40 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 11:49 am

Thats a very valid question Clipper 471....

But in what possile way is that argument realted to arming flight crew.

You in some obscure way think the two are related?

Is that the best argument you can produce?

JET

 
Whisperliner
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2000 8:56 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 11:51 am

how come no one addressed the issue of suicidal pilots?

I mean, with all due respect of pilots as proffesionals- but they are humans beings too. So how if a pilot with a chip on his shoulder decides to turn terrorist by using the readily avalible gun on the other pilot- then he would be free to use his jet as a missle. I would like to hear a counter point to his....
 
JETPILOT
Posts: 3094
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 6:40 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 12:02 pm

Counterpint: the potential benefits outweigh the potential negatives.

JET
 
nonrevman
Posts: 1265
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 12:16 pm

counterpoint: A gun is not the only possible weapon. There could be a crash axe, a scalding hot cup of coffee, the blunt end of a fire extinguisher, etc...
 
JETPILOT
Posts: 3094
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 6:40 am

RE: Why Guns When Doors Will Do?

Sun Apr 20, 2003 1:35 pm

It doesnt take a genious to figure out the firearm is a standoff weapon..... I dont have to be within reach of an attackers ability to assault me by whatever means he has.

I dont want to be egaged in battle with a terrorist for a fire extinguisher, or a crash axe.

I dont drink coffee.

If fire extinguishers, and coffee pots were effective weapons SWAT teams would have them.

JET

[Edited 2003-04-20 06:36:24]

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