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SEA nw DC10
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US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:39 am

I'm with Northwest, but I am a huge Southwest fan. I overhear fellow employees, at times, making fun of SW employees, the airline and whatnot. I also have many friends at different airlines, and they usually have nothing but sarcasm and kind of blatent things to say about Southwest. I feel this is all out of bitterness and jelousy...personally. What do you all think? Does WN have us all lookin' pretty shabby ourselves during these times?

SEA nw DC10
 
N766UA
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:41 am

Yes.  Big thumbs up
 
luv2fly
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:44 am

I think there is always that jealousy when someone or something succeeds when others are not. Kinda like watching the Olympics ice skating and we all like it when the skaters fall. And when you think about it, WN is making money by keeping everything simple, a feat that the majors are unable to do right now. 2 many types of aircraft in the fleet of the majors for starters. And in good times for everyone it is easy to discount or forget about WN because they are not a threat, now that they are one of a few making any money, people realize just how big and profitable they have become.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
SJCguy
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:47 am

Funny this is brought up. I'm usually up in the jetway after loading the planes, greeting passengers as they board. We had a flight attendant from another major carrier making her way down the jetway, and myself and the Captain greeted her. She didn't say a word and proceeded onto the plane with a sour expression. The Captain asked me if I could just load her into the belly.  Big thumbs up

SJCguy
 
Guest

RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:57 am

I don't know why some people are bitter towards other airlines. I have come up with a list as to why they shouldn't

1. In this day and age be THANKFUL you have a job with any carrier!
2. Interline Non-Revenue agreements  Big thumbs up
3. Could get you a$$ bumped real quick
4. If your airline sucks, work harder to make it better
5. Never bad mouth another carrier...... They may be the only one hiring if you get laid off.

I may work for JetBlue, but I think Southwest is a great carrier, as well as Northwest and the rest. I'm in this industry because I love airplanes and flying.

Remember, we are all brothers and sisters in this industry. We do the same things, just with different names on our paychecks.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Wed Jun 18, 2003 12:05 pm

I have a bitterness towards Southwest here in New Orleans for the simple reason that their ground crew does not really care if our plane is backing up for departure, or arriving at the gate for that matter...they will always try to cut their aircraft in front of us. Anything to save 30 seconds. Southwest's odd-numbered gates on Concourse B here at MSY are directly across from Frontier's/JetBlue's Gate, C-3. There is not enough room in between the two concourses for two aircraft to back up at the same time, if the gates are directly across from one another. Well sure enough, our crew has to keep an extra eye for Southwest, because at least several times a week, we see their aircraft zipping past our Airbus backing up, not too far away at all really, and our plane then has to come to a total stop. I cannot tell you how many close calls I have seen...with Vanguard, Northwest, and Frontier....all due to the aggressive maneuvers by the WN pilots and ground crew here.

I'm not saying this to bash WN...I like the airline personally....I'm saying this because it is a safety issues. But no matter how many times they get reported...and apparently it is quite often here...nothing ever really changes. They are as reckless as ever. They will do ANYTHING to push their plane before anyone else's if possible...apparently even it involves risking damage or injury to aircraft and/or crews...and even if the other airlines' jets have the apparent right of way.

If it happens here, I'm sure it happens at other airports, so this could be a reason why certain people don't have the best outlook on Southwest.


Steve in N.O
 
SJCguy
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:15 pm

I will admit we do things fast. I'll also admit that other airlines do things slow. Just today, 2 of our planes were cleared to back taxi past an American MD80 who was taxiing at walking speed. Both of our jets had back-taxiied, flipped a 360 at the end of the runway and were both airborne beginning the Loop-9 before the AA jet had even reached the end of the runway to depart. ATC loves us... lol

SJCguy
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:34 pm

Cartel-network carriers don't like Southwest because Southwest upsets their economic applecart. Their cost structures and labor-management relations were largely fixed before deregulation, and many of them inherited issues from fellow pre-dereg airlines they bought in the '80s. As long as they didn't have Southwest or another LCC holding them accountable, they could just keep gouging communities to prop up their dysfunctional and bloated cost structures.

Many, many small and medium-size markets had enplanements artificially surpressed in the '90s by network carriers more interested in protecting their gravy train than in offering a good, customer-friendly product at a reasonable price. Many of us from these markets are bitter at the network carriers for giving it to us up the tailpipe as long as Southwest was safely in other parts of the country. Southwest, JetBlue et al., have definitively debunked the claim that "that's what it costs" to provide safe, reliable air travel on the vast majority of seat capacity.

Let network-carrier folks be bitter if they like. The Cartel-network carriers deserve *every bit* of the economic pain they're feeling, even if the employees don't. Not all of these carriers will survive the coming shakeout, but several will, and they'll be stronger and leaner, less dependent upon gouging. Meanwhile, those of us who have the choice between a new 717 and a low fare, or a DeHavilland and a high fare, will keep choosing the 717.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
cloudy
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:43 pm

On the flip side....

The WN people I have met, both in real life and on this board, seem not to feel much ill will towards their competitors. They seem to even have sympathy for what is happening to the employees of fellow airlines.

Even WN management does not seem to go out of its way to pick fights/fare wars/ etc. with other airlines. They have fought back when attacked, but I can't think of any move they have made that would be considered an "attack" on another airline. Just about every real, money-loosing fight they have been in has been provoked by someone else. When they were smaller, many other airlines tried to run them out of business. Why now, don't they enter COS, slash fares competing routes, and run United out of business? Why don't they tend to do things like that?

I think the answer is because they do not really consider competition except either in terms of avoiding it(in the case of major hubs) or matching it(in the case of other low-co's or other airlines routes). They don't really try to exterminate it like other airlines in a position of power have tended to do. They are not predatory. They favor profit over market share or ego gratification, as managers in most sane industries will.

Another reason is that it just would not be LUVing.....

As for what people at the network airlines think, is there also hostility toward other lo-cos like Airtran and JetBlue?
 
737doctor
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:13 pm

It's interesting that you bring this topic up, Steve. Like SJCguy, I am also a Southwest employee, a proud Southwest employee. Living in a metropolitan area which American also calls home, I have seen this bitterness firsthand. Let me explain:

Before we got married, my wife lived in an apartment complex just south of DFW. Her neighbor was a ramper for American, a real "winner", if you know what I mean; he was battling alcoholism by being perpetually stoned. One night after work, he invited us over to his place. One of his co-workers came over and my wife introduced me and mentioned that I worked for Southwest. The guy actually booed me to my face. Mind you that this was pre-9/11, before we were one of the only airlines to pull a profit, and somehow, to this guy, I was the villain. Maybe he should have brushed up on his airline history.

Fast forward several months. I decided to visit the Amon Carter museum near AA HDQ. I love planes and airline history, so I'm not averse to spending time in a competing airline's museum for an hour or two. I decided to visit the gift shop and I picked up a model of a SWA 737-700 which had been marked down. I mentioned to the cashier that they had a nice gift shop with a large selection, better than the one we have at the G.O. at Love Field, and she snorted contemptously at me at the mere mention of Southwest. I changed my mind on the spot; at least the Freedom Shop at SWA has a friendlier staff, thereby making it better in my opinion.

Here's another one, also pre-9/11. I was sitting at a Cracker Barrel restaurant with my two kids, who were visiting me from Austin. I had bought my daughter an inflatable Shamu model and she was playing with it at the table. An old man (a retired AA employee, I am guessing) came up to the table and asked her to see it. She showed it to him and he leaned over and said, "American is better". A joke perhaps, but inappropriate nonetheless.

My wife works at a hospital near DFW and she is always receiving patients that work at American (and occasionally other airlines). Two incidents stand out in my mind. One time she had a retired AA pilot in for prostate surgery or something and she got to talking with him. She told him that I worked for Southwest and he said "I'm sorry to hear that". She said, "I'm not" and proceeded to sing the praises of Southwest: our profitability, safety record, our culture, etc. He shut up pretty fast.

But maybe the most galling of all these episodes occurred between my wife and a Delta employee. Almost two years ago, I had to go to the emergency room at my wife's hospital with a kidney stone (if you've never had them, you NEVER want to) and while I was doped up on morphine, she stepped outside to have a cigarette. She wore my SWA jacket to keep warm. While she was out there, a Delta mechanic and her got to talking. He noticed the jacket and she said it belonged to me, that I was a mechanic for Southwest. He also offered his "apologies" and she set him straight as well.

So, yes, I do feel that there is a certain amount of jealousy from the other airlines (and their fans), due to our success. Hell, its apparent here when you see some of the topics on this forum; there is no shortage of Southwest bashers here. I can understand that employees of competing airlines will have a loyalty to their own company. That is natural. Yet many members of the anti-Southwest faction on this forum are often misinformed or somewhat immature. They may hate us because we are "boring", because we only fly 737's, don't fly internationally, or because we do things differently. That's just silly and shows a real lack of understanding of the way the industry works. But after 2+ years on this forum, I'm used to it.

737doc
Patrick Bateman is my hero.
 
Boeingfan
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:59 pm

Jealousy, deceit, because WN did not take pay cuts, lay offs, and they still get their bonuses. Oh and the airline makes "real" money. None of that paper that AMR is borrowing against. Quality, what a quality efficient airline. Always a joy to board WN. They have a funny paint scheme? Employee's care... No attitude, oh and their employees actually have an expression on their face not usually found at major airline since the late '60's... they smile.
 
SJCguy
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Wed Jun 18, 2003 5:05 pm

737doctor- Thanks for sharing those stories. I believe that most of us at SW, including myself, are hopeful for all the majors that have been suffering. I don't have hard feelings towards them, I have no reason to, but I feel like there are hard feelings towards SW. That said, I know I sometimes say things I don't necessarily mean on this forum, purely reacting to some of the posts. In reality, I LUV United...and fly them quite a bit. I don't know who else I'd rather fly between SJC and DEN on a regular basis. Anyways, I think we're all in this together.

SJCguy
 
artsyman
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Wed Jun 18, 2003 5:11 pm

There is NOT bitterness from Continental towards Southwest, Gordon seems to say nice things about them plenty, Herb was talked about lots in Gordons book and most of the employees I know well don't seem to have any issue with them. From a competition point of view, 75% of Continentals routes are already in competition with LCC so getting pissed off about it seems sort of pointless now
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:03 pm

Part of the bitterness also stems from WN really reducing the image of flying.

Flying used to be glamourous and something that people really got excited about. People actually got dressed up in their Sunday best to take a flight. Then, along came WN where style and glamour were non-existent. WN became the poster child for the Greyhound of the Skies.
 
m717
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:26 pm

"Both of our jets had back-taxiied, flipped a 360 at the end of the runway..."

If they "flipped a 360" they would have taken off in the same direction that they were headed while back-taxiing. Even though they are always in this mad dash mode, I don't think they would make this mistake. I think what they "flipped" was a 180. Sounded cool though.  Insane
 
scxmechanic
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:42 pm

FlyPNS1,

So what your saying is that flying as a passenger is better left up to the rich well-to-do crowd? Or are you saying the TSA should also be fashion police?

Well, if it were not for Southwest and other LCC how would you be doing your traveling? The bus and train lines would be how you get around. Either that or not travel at all.

The LCC made flying affordable for everyone not just the upper crust of society. And with that, you have people who may not meet your idea of whats acceptable in dress or behavior.

Its a trade off of sorts I suppose..



 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:58 pm

FlyPNS1, So what your saying is that flying as a passenger is better left up to the rich well-to-do crowd? Or are you saying the TSA should also be fashion police? Well, if it were not for Southwest and other LCC how would you be doing your traveling? The bus and train lines would be how you get around. Either that or not travel at all.

That's *exactly* what the Cartel-network carriers want. Gate the skies for the rich and make the easy money. It's hard work to reform your cost structure and make money flying all the demand that's out there. It's not an ideological thing, just business. When you've got a dysfunctional, bloated business, you don't want anyone else offering a better product at a lower price. That means, God forbid, that you have to shape up your business.

I for one still dress nicely, whatever airline I fly. Nevertheless...God bless Southwest, JetBlue, AirTran, and all LCC's who open the skies to the rest of us. I love seeing a full 717 that's carrying more than just white businessmen.

737doctor, your stories are very interesting, and, sadly, not surprising. When I lived in Steubenville, Ohio, near Pittsburgh, I used to read the letters from angry US Airways employees in the Post-Gazette. They'd tell blatant lies about Southwest, especially in the area of safety. Now those same employees are, sadly, paying the price of the Colodny/Schofield/ employee union philosophy of management that they defended.

Jim

Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Thu Jun 19, 2003 12:27 am

I never said flying should only be for the rich. And I got bad news for you guys, most of the people flying today are still middle/upper class. Today's poor rarely ever fly and WN/JBLU/AAI aren't going to change that.

As for clothing, I'm not saying that people have to get dressed up to fly. But some common sense and decency would go along way. Flip-flops are not appropriate footwear.

The other reason I see for bitterness is the lowering of wage standards. Airline employees have seen their real wages adjusted for inflation plunge in the years since deregulation. Now, some of that was inevitable because airline employees wages were kept artificially high during regulation, but the plunge since has become severe.

Working at an airline (whether it be WN or AA) no longer ensures a livable income, instead you will become part of a growing sector in America known as the working poor (pilots excluded). Sure you can make enough to survive, but will you have enough to put your kids through college or have a decent retirement....not likely.

Many airline employees at the other majors blame WN for this decline. Is it fair to blame WN? Not entirely, but WN is a part of the problem.
 
scxmechanic
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Thu Jun 19, 2003 2:34 am

FlyPNS1,

I hate to break it to you again. But we at WN are NOT the lowest paid in the industry. As a matter of fact, if I am not mistaken, we make the most of all pax airlines. Only FedEx and UPS are higher.. So your reasoning doesn't hold water.

Now regarding the poor and their inability to afford a ticket on a LCC or any other airline. Well, that may be true even in today's environment. But I can assure you, today's ticket prices are a little closer to something that is affordable than the ticket prices of by-gone times.. Our lowest fare, something like $299 one way anywhere we fly, is a lot less that say AMR, DAL, COA, UAL or USA's one way unrestricted fares. And you know what? We even make a profit on that $299!!! Unlike the other guys..

As for how others dress, that is something none of us can change. You have to thank the degradation of parenting skills of past generations for allowing their kids to dress like slobs..

Maybe you can get a little tin badge made up that says "Fashion Police" and go around arresting people who you feel are dressed inappropriately. kidding of course!

As for the other airline employees, I really feel for them. I can't imagine being unemployed or having to uproot family's and move across the country to take a pay cut. I have worked for other airlines in the past and I am GRATEFUL to be at SWA. I have seen it from both sides of the fence. Luckily, the grass is a little greener over here..
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Thu Jun 19, 2003 2:47 am

I love seeing a full 717 that's carrying more than just white businessmen.

Are you implying that only white people can be businessmen?  Big grin

I hate to break it to you again. But we at WN are NOT the lowest paid in the industry.

Top-of-scale employees at WN make more than industry average, and in some cases ARE the top of the industry.

However, starting wages at WN tend to be lower than industry average. WN rewards longevity with high wages; their costs are kept low through the relatively low pay that 0-5 year employees (who make up the majority of their workforce) are given.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
luv2fly
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Thu Jun 19, 2003 2:49 am

Scxmechanic

I have always found SWA employees glad to actually have my business and it shows. The reason the other airlines and there feelings towards SWA, could it be the downturn in the industry, many of the people who they work with or had worked with now lay'd off, mistrust of current management and envious of the relationship SWA employees have with there upper management. Could it be the helpless feeling other airline employees now feel about there career choices, and lack of choices available now in the airline industry.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Greg
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Thu Jun 19, 2003 3:36 am

Of course there is resentment toward Southwest. Jealousy does that.
They have a winning formula that has been proven for 32 years. The other carriers are still fumbling around trying to figure it out. Or have had multiple Chapter 11 filings to keep them above water.

Even JetBlue has strayed. Which will likely be the death of them in the long term.

My money...and my respect go to WN for keeping a simple vision alive and working.

I am a very satisfied shareholder for more than 10 years.
 
goingboeing
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Thu Jun 19, 2003 3:44 am

737doctor - I make an annual pilgrimage to Dallas over Thanksgiving and meet some of my buddies from the Yahoo board for lunch...think you'll be around then? ...usually I go there on "vendor day" (the wife spent half a day shopping there last year).

I think any "resentment" is the "yeah but" variety. Southwest makes money -

"Yeah but" their pilots taxi too fast
"Yeah but" they don't have a pension
"Yeah but" they pay their people peanuts (although it seems an awful lot of folks at other airlines are finding those peanuts rather attractive)
"Yeah but" they don't serve small towns (Midland/Odessa might argue to the contrary)
"Yeah but" they don't have a "class" product

From a passenger standpoint, while LUV jets are roomier for me, I still don't find any airline seat terribly comfortable - so the less time I spend bumping along at a snails pace on an uneven taxiway, the happier I am. As far as the class product - the treatment LUV employees provide me on every flight I have had is only one class - first class - so SWA is my airline of choice whenever possible.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Thu Jun 19, 2003 7:52 am

Are you implying that only white people can be businessmen?

No...I just observed that often in the past. Are you saying there's something wrong with air travel being opened for more than just the wealthy or corporate expense accounts?  Big grin

Jim


Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
User avatar
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Thu Jun 19, 2003 8:00 am

Are you saying there's something wrong with air travel being opened for more than just the wealthy or corporate expense accounts?

I fail to see anything in my post that could give you that impression.  Big grin
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
737doctor
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Thu Jun 19, 2003 12:38 pm

Goingboeing, I should be here around that time; I was last year. It all depends on whether the wife wants to go visit her folks in East Texas. It's hard to say this far in advance, but remind me in a couple months.
Patrick Bateman is my hero.
 
NDSchu777
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Thu Jun 19, 2003 12:53 pm

It's kinda like A vs. B wars on these forums. There's always some Airbus fan person taking pleasure when Boeing isn't performing well or a pro-Boeing person getting bitter at Airbus when they're successful, or vice versa.

Guess it's just a part of human nature to be jealous of competition.

But in all honesty, instead of the rest of the struggling, money-bleeding industry is being bitter and sitting around making fun of a profitable Southwest, they should learn from them and try to be as inovative as they were in transforming their business into profitability.

--Nick
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:36 pm

I fail to see anything in my post that could give you that impression.

Read a little more closely. You implied that WN folks are underpaid, which means higher fares are needed. Which limits the number of people who can fly. It was pretty clear to me.  Big grin

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
SEA nw DC10
Topic Author
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FlyPNS1......

Thu Jun 19, 2003 4:26 pm

I'm sorry, but style and glamour were non-existent when Southwest came about? I'm not sure if you know much about their history, but their original flight crew uniforms and the ones all throughout the 70's and early 80's were about as stylish as you could get....you show me some pictures of flight attendants at AA or UA and pictures of Southwest's in the same time period and tell me who was more stylish and hip.

By the way, that "glamour" you are so adequately referring to took place in the 40's and 50's during the early years of air travel, and the introduction to jet airplanes. If your argument held any truth, the airlines right now, YEARS later, would feel resentful towards Southwest for, in your terms, ridding the industry of it's "glamour", which is absolutely not the case. Glamour in air travel has deminished years ago after Dereg. I'm asking if airlines are bitter towards WN right now due to their success and the others' demise.  Insane

SEA nw DC10
 
steede
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Thu Jun 19, 2003 8:40 pm

Don't know about industry resentment towards Southwest, but living in the DC/Baltimore area there are some elitist who think they're too good to fly on Southwest. Granted this is the minority, but they do exist. These are people who would rather fly on United or AA to O'Hare for a quick business trip to downtown Chicago, rather than fly on ATA or WN into Midway. Granted some of these people have a ton of miles and get upgrades on AA and United, but it's only a 1.5 hour flight, so I don't think being in first class is that big of a deal. In addition to the money you save on ATA or WN, you save a ton of time just flying into a more convenient airport- closer to downtown, easy in, easy out with the rental car thing...etc.
 
SJCguy
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Fri Jun 20, 2003 4:09 pm

I'd say we are use to any type of pun people have to offer us, especially on this forum. Southwest is the butt of a lot of airline jokes, always have been. But it's just like the little girl who bullyrags the little boy, it's not because she really doesn't like him, it's because she secretly really likes him.

SJCguy
 
saab2000
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Fri Jun 20, 2003 4:28 pm

This kind of airline resentment is evidently common. Here in Switzerland we used to have two significant carriers - Swissair and Crossair. They hated each other and the crews went out of their way to be arrogant towards each other. Imagine how it is now that Swissair is no longer around and Crossair has turned into the "national" carrier. SWISS took on a lot of the former Swissair types and let me tell you, the working atmosphere has gone to hell.

For those of you who say that there should be a "brotherhood" among all airline people, I could not agree more. But it just ain't so. There is a lot of internal rivalry and cold-heartedness here. I have heard that the Northwest/Republic thing was nasty as well.

I wish there were more brotherhood here.

Usually it comes from one major glamorous airline feeling threatened by another one. Swissair pilots and F/As felt that their "big fish" status was threatened by the upstarts at Crossair and so perpetuated myths about terrible safety and bad service. Really childish this whole dispute. It is still going on and probably will until the last Swissair type and last Crossair person has retired.
smrtrthnu
 
mandala499
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RE: US Carriers Bitter Towards Southwest?

Fri Jun 20, 2003 5:18 pm

I say "Bitter Loosers"...
McKinsey researched 16 industries such as paper, commodity, chemicals, steel, banking etc... and found that the airline industry has the worst performance.

Airlines continuously fail to have their return on investment to be higher than their weighted average cost of capital...

The revenue passenger miles year to year change in 2002 explains why mainlines tend to hate LCCs... Southwest, Frontier, ATA, AirTran and JetBlue all grew while USAirways, COA, UAL, DAL, NWA and AAL declined.

The management of UAL see SWA as the only airline to have really succeeded. What's funny is that, SWA in 2002 carries 2/3 of the value of all the major airlines in the US.

I am not saying that all those who sniggers at SWA are bad... but, maybe they should really think and realise that they got something right over at SWA...

Mandala499

When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !

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Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos