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ssides
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Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:14 am

Does any airline offer non-stop flights from London to HNL? If so, what aircraft?
 
dispatch
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:16 am

As far as I know,

NO

Peter
 
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B747-437B
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:21 am

Never have, likely never will.
 
dispatch
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:30 am

I don't know how many British people holiday on Hawaii.
The number is probably not high enough to justify a non-stop, unless once-weekly. I guess it could be done with A340-500. But which British airline would buy one for a once-weekly  Sad

Peter
 
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:31 am

BOAC flew to Honolulu as late as 1968 as part of their trans pacific routes. The flights would continue to LAX.
 
ssides
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:37 am

It could be done over-the-pole with a 777; I doubt the market is there, however.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:38 am

No nonstops, there is not the traffic to support such a flight and the yeilds would be all wrong......although the route would look great on an airline route map, Hawaii is too far and too expensive for most British or European people to go to for a beach holiday. Business traffic is minimial.

Many, many years ago, Western offered HNL-ANC-LGW service 2 or 3 times per week with their DC-10-10 Spaceships, the service lasted for about a year and the flights were very very empty.

With more and more cruise lines basing ships in Hawaii for inter-island and pacific cruising, we may see some charter flights but that is also not very likely.

The most effecient way to travel from London to Honolulu is with United via LAX, at certain times of the year, one flight (cant remember the number) operates LHR-LAX-HNL, but there is generally an aircraft change in LAX anyway.
 
dispatch
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:43 am

Dutchjet,
Hawaii from the Netherlands is not that expensive. Check out

http://www.exit-reizen.nl/

I've been to Hawaii three times over the last few years. I does, however, need change of plane in ORD or IAD, plus most of the time one night in LAX.
The return as offered is terrible, TWO red eyes, unless you plan a lay over.

Peter
 
FlySSC
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:44 am

No.

But I know that LH had planned to operate a service with a A340-200 between FRA and HNL many years ago, but never concretized the idea.

Air Tahiti Nui asked Airbus to study an even longer-range variant of the A340-500 whitch could fly fully loaded non-stop PPT-CDG to avoid the en route stop in LAX....

What a nightmare !!!!


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jay Piboontum

 
DoorsToManual
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:48 am

I for one would not set foot on such a long flight (as I would only ever be able to afford Economy). Give me an AA/whoever flight, and I'll gladly stopover somewhere on the West coast...
 
dutchjet
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:51 am

hey dispatch,

I realize that the airfare itself is not excessively expensive, but the total price of a trip to Hawaii must be compared to a more typical european package holiday including a charter flight to say the canaries or greek islands......the cost, plus the 13-14 hour flying time makes Hawaii a hard sell to most european holiday makers.

I am not saying that Europeans are not interested in going to Hawaii, its a very beautiful and special place, but I really do not think that the traffic is adequate to support a nonstop flight with passengers paying high enough fares to make it interesting for the airlines......its a lot of miles.

 
StevenUhl777
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:56 am

What a flight from hell that would be....

Closest thing I know of is UA 934/935...via LAX. At one point it originated/terminated in HNL, not sure if UA has kept that in place or not, though.
 
dispatch
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:58 am

Agreed Dutchjet,

two R/T with United to Hawaii got me a free R/T to LAS next October.
So yes, it's a lot of miles Big grin

Peter
 
neilalp
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 4:17 am

Wouldn't it be more direct to fly farther north such as YVR, SEA or ANC then on to London? I would think the farther north you can go from HNL you'd get more of a polar route. Even a flight from HNL to MSP, DTW. I would think going to LAX your missing a lot of arc on the first leg of the flight.
 
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Crosswind
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 4:28 am

Western Airlines flew the only ever direct scheduled route from London Gatwick to Honolulu with a DC-10-10 in the early 1980s That's right - A series 10!

The 'plane stopped to refuel at Anchorage in both directions but even then on the Anchorage-London-Anchorage flights there were severe payload restrictions, especially on Westbound flights - often restricted to selling only 150 seats. This didn't matter as there were often less than 50 people on the plane.

Needless to say it was a commercial disaster and the route didn't last long. I believe Airtours Holidays tried their hand at a UK-Hawaii charter programme in 1989 using an Orion Air B747-100, the sole passenger plane of the US cargo airline, the aircraft was nicknamed "the flying pig" during it's season in the UK when it spent more time in the hangar that it did in the air!

The Carribbean, The Canaries, The Azores, The Greek Islands, Mauritius, The Seychelles, La Reunion, The Maldives, Bali, Thailand, Malaysia...

All offer island resorts and similar attractions, with direct flights from Europe. They are closer and so more attractive to tourists, and are can easily be combined as multi-centre holdays with other places due to their location.

The Hawaiian Islands are a long way away, and your stoppover opportunites are severely limited to the USA.

To offer non-stop service you'd need an operate a B747, B777 or A340. No airline would dedicate an expensive asset, to a low-yield route of this length when they could use it more profitably on a route to the Carribbean or Indian Ocean.

It just a question of demand and economics, neither of which are favourable.

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 4:31 am

Good discussion. Keep in mind, too, that even U.S. carriers have stopped HNL flights due to low yields.
 
capt078
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 4:49 am

yeah, i don't envision a nonstop london (or europe) hawaii flight. personally, i would much rather vacation in southern france or the med than hawaii, but of course, the grass is always greener on the other side.

boeing757/767: keep in mind that several carriers (ual, ata, and nwa) just announced additional flights to hawaii. granted, some are a return of previously offered services, but to suggest that the market is declining is slightly misleading.
 
jhooper
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 4:49 am

DL just restarted ATL-HNL, so you could do LGW-ATL-HNL too.
 
capt078
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:03 am

jhooper: thanks, i forgot about the delta atl-hnl flight. also, i didn't mention aloha's recent additions (although these do really respresent only a slight capacity increase), or alaska's recent announcement that it would like to serve hawaii.
 
deltairlines
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:38 am

LON-HNL can not be done under Bermuda II currently anyway. HNL is currently one of five cities in BII that can only get LON service if a city that currently has LON service gets the service dropped.

I believe MSY, MKE, and PDX are amongst the other cities on the list (I forget what the other city is, I have it written down somewhere).

Jeff
 
DoorsToManual
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:45 am

Well, SAN is about to get dropped for the winter schedule, so would that count?

Bermuda 2 should eventually be consigned to history now that Britain has handed negotiationg rights over to the EU....that should be good news, unless the EU becomes too ambitious with its ideas...
 
behramjee
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:53 am

No European or UK airline would fly nonstop to Hawaii as they have enough tropical cities in Europe which is more closer and economical such as Palma De Mallorca, Italy, Nice, Marseilles, Greece, Cyprus etc etc.

 
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aloha73g
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:58 am

"Keep in mind, too, that even U.S. carriers have stopped HNL flights due to low yields."

From the Honolulu Advertiser 6-29-03:
"The strength of tourism from the Mainland US to Hawaii is felt at Los Angeles travel agency TravelStore, where leisure marketing and sales vice president Dan Ilves said bookings to Hawai'i are up by about 25 percent over last year. The reason: "Nobody wants to go to Asia, and people are still a bit scared to go to Europe," he said.
The number of seats from all locations listed in airline schedules for June (2003) is down 4.9 percent compared with the same month last year, according to the visitors bureau. That includes a 6.2 percent increase in seats from the Mainland US...."

Continental, Delta, Aloha, Hawaiian, United, American, ATA, & Northwest--basically every airline serving the market--have added seats from the mainland US to Hawaii within the last 12 months.

Aloha!
 
dahawaiian
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 6:26 am

This subject seems to come up often. The only European airline that regularly serves HNL is LH Cargo which flies MD-11F's here probably to deliver German automobiles. I have English relatives who visit Hawai'i every few years, and they don't seem to mind connecting through SFO on United Airlines each time.
Speaking of oddball routes, what happened to the Vladivostok-HNL flights that were supposed to be flown by an IL-62? I guess that one completely fell through because I haven't heard anything about it in years.
 
planesarecool
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 6:41 am

United Airlines operate a service from HNL via SFO to LHR. It arrives at around 1300 into LHR. I guess that's the closest we're going to get to a direct at present
 
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kurt
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:01 am

Looks like its UA931 LHR-SFO-HNL and UA954 HNL-SFO-LHR

From: London (Heathrow), England, UK To: Honolulu, HI
DIRECT VIA: San Francisco, CA
United 931

From:LHR To:SFO
2:45 PM 5:40 PM
Trm:3 777 Trm:I
Meal: LS

Con't Flight
From:SFO To:HNL
7:55 PM 10:05PM
Trm:3 763 Trm:M
Meal: D

From: Honolulu, HI To: London (Heathrow), England, UK
DIRECT VIA: San Francisco, CA

United 954
From:HNL To:SFO
7:05 AM 3:03 PM
Trm:M 763 Trm:3
Meal: B

From:SFO To:LHR
6:55 PM 1:15 PM
Trm:I 777 Trm:3
Meal: DS
 
Corners
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:44 am

In November 1982 some friends and I flew to HNL from YVR with CPAir Holidays on a DC-10-30, We met several people from the UK on board on a continuation from Gatwick...same plane service. These days maybe Air Canada does a connection in YVR but it's still a long way...at least 14 hours!
 
klwright69
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 12:20 pm

Yes and here in DEN when we had the good old days of the CO hub, we had CO flights #34 and #35. One stop service from LGW to HNL via DEN. Eastbound it left HNL in the morning and arrived in DEN in the evening, then left again for LGW, so there was only one redeye this direction, not two as another poster noted.

Westbound, after arriving from LGW in the late afternoon (early evening), it would leave DEN just in time to arrive in HNL to make the connections to CO's flights to Australia and New Zealand that departed HNL at around 12:45 a.m. Often the same aircraft (a DC-10-30 no less) would continue on to somewhere in the South Pacific.

These flights were perfectly timed for travel between HNL and LGW. However the scheduling was so tight that if there was a delay anywhere along the way, flights days down the line would be delayed.

Many, many pax were traveling from LGW to Australia and New Zealand straight through via DEN and HNL. Talk about a long haul.

I worked those flights many, many times. Oh, the good old days !!

After the close of the Denver hub, flight 34 and 35 were transfered to IAH for an additional LGW roundtrip. The same flight numbers are still used, but for a much less interesting route.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 12:48 pm

Of course, if there are any Brits that are not averse to flying a non-British airline to HNL from LHR, they could fly JL or NH to NRT and then connect on another JL or NH flight to HNL.  Smile
 
ha763
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:29 pm

Hawaii actually gets a decent number of European tourists, with a majority being British. LH actually flew from Germany non-stop with an A340 in the early or mid 1990's, but I think it might have been charters and didn't last that long. A non-stop flight to a European destination would be very difficult to sustain in that there are a lot of competing destinations that offer surf and sun and are closer to Europe.
 
David_itl
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:55 pm


The charter programme mentioned by Crosswind was operated by Hawaiian using both DC8s and L1011s (flight numbers HA 584/585).

David
 
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Crosswind
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:56 pm

Sorry to divert slightly....

David,
I'm just curious as to which destinations were served by OrionAir and Lionair/Carribbean Airways from Manchester in 1989? I had assumed OrionAir operated the full Airtours programme. I remember seeing both airlines' B747s at MAN both when travelling during the summer of 1989, as well as a Calednonian B747 headed for LAX at the same time.

I also remember arriving at the same time as Air Europe's leased B747 in February 1990 and entering the baggage hall to discover it was inbound from Bangkok.

Slightly strange to think of the large aircaft once used on some charters, but of course there were far fewer flights back then then, especially since at the same time most Orlando flights were on 757s!
 
David_itl
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:30 pm


Crosswind

Think the Orionair flights were to Orlando (flight HS279/280 rings a bell) and that they were dropped with LTU and an American airline (Air America?) both using L1011s to replace them.

And the Lionair 747 were used for Barbados ("International Carribbean"), Dominincan Republic ("Dominicana") and Jamaica ("Trans Jamaica Air").

There's a photo of both 747s in the book "First and Foremost" but I can't remember the year the photo was taken - I'll have to look at the book tonight and see if I've still got my "vintage" timetables.

If only we could get LAX + BKK back on the departures board...!

David
 
Boeing757/767
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:19 pm

Regarding U.S. carriers dropping HNL service, I was referring to AA dropping ORD service, citing low yields.

Despite the demand for travel, as stated above, the fact is that it's low-yield for airlines and a favorite for frequent flyer awards. They may be adding service as people look domestically for travel, but it's doubtful they're making much money.
 
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Crosswind
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Thu Aug 14, 2003 1:31 am

I have a photo of my own snapped through from Pier C of Lionair B747 LX-GCV as she pulled onto stand 26 in May 1989. The aircraft wore "Carribbean Airways - The National Airline of Barbados" titles.

This July 1989 photo in the database shows it:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © David Unsworth



There's also a photo of LX-GCV leaving Manchester in 1988 wearing OrionAir titles:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andy Martin



It appears for summer 1989 OrionAir replaced the Lionair aircraft with their own aircraft, which became known as the "flying pig" and even feartured in a Horizon documentary about ageing aircraft!

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.



Interesting times!
CROSSWIND
 
dispatch
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:15 am

Klwright69,
I flew United on the flights mentioned. Late night departure from HNL or KOA to LAX, then on to ORD or IAD, with yet another late departure back to AMS. Did this twice, NEVER again  Sad

Peter
 
ha763
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:42 pm

As far as I know, AA has not discontinued any ORD-Hawaii service, in fact they added a ORD-OGG flight in addition to ORD-HNL. UA discontinued their ORD-HNL flight after retiring the DC-10, but this was in the 90's when yields in other markets were a lot higher and many airlines actually were cutting flights to Hawaii in order to re-deploy the planes to higher yield routes. However, airlines have added quite a few flights to Hawaii especially after 2001 because as yields dropped in other markets, demand to Hawaii is still high and yields actually have been stable.

Hawaii is supposed to a low yield destination, but the main complaint of travel to Hawaii is the cost of airfares. Ever notice the lack of fare sales to Hawaii? Almost all fare sales exclude Hawaii.
 
Paddy
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Thu Aug 14, 2003 1:06 pm

The Brits don't need Hawaii because they have the Baelerics. How about "When is there going to be non-stop service from the US to
Ibiza?  Wow! (Probably never)
 
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ATA L1011
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Thu Aug 14, 2003 1:12 pm

I dont see it happening, like Paddy said they have Plenty of resort type places in Southern Europe (Spain area and others) to travel to with nice beaches.
 
Red Panda
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:58 pm

Topless beach in France is always better than those fat b*tches in Honolulu. I would prefer anywhere in the Mediterranean Sea to Hawaii.

r panda
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:12 pm

I'm not so sure about S. of France being better, right now at least - it's 38 degrees centigrade today, humid as hell, packed solid with sweaty, leather-tanned Parisians - you can't get near the sea without tripping over oiled corpses and being deafened by Italians yelling into their mobile phones. It might SEEM glamorous, but the glitter soon rubs off, believe me. I think I would rather be on the North Shore of Oahu right now. Lets see...

BA 347 NCE 1 LHR 1 1355 1500 0 320
AC 855 LHR 3 YVR M 1615 1805 0 763
AC 033 YVR M HNL M 1955 2245 0 343 20:50

Less than a day.
 
richierich
Moderator
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:04 pm

First of all, let me say that Red Pandas comment is offensive and stupid.

Now for the subject at hand: LON-HNL. Let's face it, unless the sun stops shining in southern Europe (or keeps shining in northern Europe, as it is right now Smile ), there will never be scheduled service in this market.

Without hard data, I'm guessing that Hawaii sees many thousands of UK tourists each year. But I am guessing the majority of these are people visiting the States, probably West Coast, and take the opportunity to go to Hawaii because it is relatively close. In other words, these are probably people who would not have gone to HI without being on the mainland first.

So, of the thousands of UK tourists, lets say a fraction of those would have flown direct and not gone via the mainland. There is no way a direct flight could be supported with this sort of traffic, unless it was a one-off or something like that. I would also guess that making one stop or changing flights is not the end of the world on such a long trip anyway.

By the way, most places in the USA require an aircraft change to get to HNL, and that includes JFK in New York (although CO has a 777 direct flight from Newark, I believe).

 
DTWINTLFLYER
Posts: 293
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:42 pm

HNL flights have been very poor for yield for a long time. The real reason to have these flights from the US is for tour packages, and FF who want to go somewhere for holiday.
 
762er
Posts: 522
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:52 pm

Yields in hawaii have actually started to pick up. That's one destination that has significant increase in capacity in the post 9/11 world. Same with the Carribean.
 
HAL
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 4:01 pm

Yields in hawaii have actually started to pick up. That's one destination that has significant increase in capacity in the post 9/11 world. Same with the Carribean.

I don't want to sound know-it-all here, but yields are not the same as loads. Yes, the loads to Hawaii have increased because more planes are flying there. However, yield is an expression of how much profit you get for a certain amount of flying. And unfortunately with all the low fares to Hawaii (coupled with the expense of flying such a long distance) means that the yield (profit per dollar spent) is still very low for flying to Hawaii.

HAL
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 4:49 pm

>>>But I know that LH had planned to operate a service with a A340-200 between FRA and HNL many years ago, but never concretized the idea.

>>>Hawaii actually gets a decent number of European tourists, with a majority being British. LH actually flew from Germany non-stop with an A340 in the early or mid 1990's, but I think it might have been charters and didn't last that long.

I can shed some light on the LH issue. The above comments are not entirely correct:

On November 21, 1992, LH flew an A340 nonstop FRA-HNL. The flight time was over 15 hours, the routing bypassed the North Pole by the smallest possible margin.

This was "only" a route proving flight, conducted by LH and Airbus in light of the upcoming deliveries. The goal was to test the a/c as such, the general feasibility of extreme long hauls and the unusually northern routing.

Daniel Smile
 
ha763
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RE: Non-stops From London To HNL?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:23 pm

This was "only" a route proving flight, conducted by LH and Airbus in light of the upcoming deliveries. The goal was to test the a/c as such, the general feasibility of extreme long hauls and the unusually northern routing.

Only thing is that I clearly remember the news covering the arrival of the first flight and it clearly showed pax coming off the a LH aircraft at a gate in HNL. Government officials met the flight and is customary with the first flight of a new route, all pax received leis.

I even found a couple of articles that show that LH flew pax to Hawaii. Unfortunately, the online archives for the two main Hawaii newspapers do not go back far enough, so I cannot easily post the article here. But these are two articles regarding LH non-stop flights to Hawaii I found searching the Hawaii State Library System's Hawaii newspaper index, which is online:

Publisher: HONOLULU ADVERTISER
Date: 1992 10 27
Title: LUFTHANSA PLANS NON-STOP, 1ST-EVER DIRECT FRANKFURT-TO-HON PASSENGER-CARRYING FLIGHT

Publisher: HONOLULU STAR-BULLETIN
Date: 1993 10 19
Title: GERMAN AIRLINE, LUFTHANSA, TO ADD EXTRA FLIGHT FROM FRANKFURT TO HON IN NOV '94

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