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backfire
Topic Author
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Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 6:16 am

FBI denying that Air Force One was the target - believe it or don't...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3146025.stm
 
DoorsToManual
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 6:19 am

The article sounds like a plot for another Bond movie...Russian secret service, FBI, MI5 & 6...
 
todaReisinger
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 6:23 am

Well, Air Force One wouldn't be the easiest target...
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
qwerty
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 6:31 am

RE AF1 target. That's the last plane you'd have a chance of getting from the surface. Forgetting for a second that there is now way anyone could get in shooting range when the President was enplaned, courtesy of the Secret Service. The rumors are the plane's not too vulnerable to that kind of threat. And, from what I've read it's not easy even for pro.s to use shoulder-fired SAMs. Even stingers. The ELAL activity earlier this years bears that out.

additional tidbit, trying to boast not too much:

I was once driving on a major highway when one of the Angels passed overhead on normal approach to a military base. It was quite a sight and many people, present company included, stopped right in the highway to watch her come in above us. My shotgun passenger commented on how neat it was to see the President fly overhead. I told her it was neat enough for me just to see the plane flying overhead. I explained to her puzzlemnet that it wouldn't have been possible to see an Angel if the President had been onboard. In two other occasions, I've been in the traffic jam that the Secret Service causes when they shut down major roads in highways when Angel really is landing/departing using a AF1 callsign.
 
DoorsToManual
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 6:36 am

Secret Service

Do you mean the FBI? Or does the US have a dedicated domestic secret intelligence service I'm not aware of?
 
Kohflot
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 6:43 am

DoorsToManual:

It's a secret....

heheh actually, here's their webpage:

http://www.ustreas.gov/usss/index.shtml



[Edited 2003-08-12 23:44:11]
Ask why..
 
qwerty
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 6:44 am

Do you mean the FBI? Or does the US have a dedicated domestic secret intelligence service I'm not aware of?

No typo.

Techinal they are Treasury Department employees. There are deparmental level SS people throughout the U.S. I think of them in the same gray area Federal types as I do the A.T.F.

Then again, the Treasury Dept. trivial pursuit answer might be old news as they are now probably part of that bloated and not needed Homeland Security Department, which will be the source of most of the "you paid for it" type stories over the next decade.
 
backfire
Topic Author
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 7:15 am

So...

...was anyone here on board BA 177 from LHR to JFK on Sunday 10 August?

And did you realise you might be flying with someone fishy?
 
qwerty
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 7:32 am

And did you realise you might be flying with someone fishy?

I bet a couple of the seats in best proximity to said fish were filled by people on the U.S. and/or U.K. govt. payrolls. Would have been more interesting to small talk with those types.
 
backfire
Topic Author
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 7:36 am

Fair play to the Russians who seem to have picked up on the whole thing at the beginning.
 
qwerty
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 7:41 am

Fair play to the Russians who seem to have picked up on the whole thing at the beginning.

Very true. And as an American, I must say, Russia has been a good friend over the past few years. Putin gets it!
 
artsyman
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 7:54 am

I must say, Russia has been a good friend over the past few years. Putin gets it!
***************

I especially loved his caring attitude when he sold Nuclear reactors to Iran... this shows how much he gets it.

 
CanadaEH
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 8:01 am

I hear so many about these "foiled" plots of terrorism. These "intercepted" communications. These "possible" attacks. I hear so many reports of said things that I really don't care anymore. I guess it is a good thing that they are stopped and all, but really, are they true?

I'm still waiting to hear about these biological/chemical/nuclear weapons that were "supposedly" in Iraq. It's been proven that intelligence in the USA is not as good as it is made out to be. After watching Bowling For Columbine, I can't help but question certain things.

My 2 cents, like it or not.
EH.
 
UN_B732
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 8:09 am

Do we have proof HE HIMSELF "sold nukes to Iran"
PUTIN himself dind't sell them, as far as I know..a PRIVATE COMPANY? That's not the governments fault.
We don't even have proof anyway, do we
-UN
What now?
 
qwerty
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 8:10 am

I especially loved his caring attitude when he sold Nuclear reactors to Iran... this shows how much he gets it.


Agreed, it's no great comfort for the West that Pakistan, China, or even India is nuclearized. And looking from the other side, I guess our Arab trouble makers see all these Western "evils" like the U.S. et.al. with nuclear weapons in the same light. This isn't that kind of dispute.

Do you really think Russia sold weaponizable nuclear technology to Iran? I don't. If Iran's commercial plant was really something more and underhanded from the Russians, beyond some work for some former CCCP nuclear technicians, the Israeli F-15s would have already bombed them!

 
too low
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 8:13 am

Maybe the world would be safer and better without Air Force One and the dummy guy inside...

Too Low
 
artsyman
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 8:19 am

Do we have proof HE HIMSELF "sold nukes to Iran"
************

Slightly off topic for this forum, but it isnt contested by the Russians that they sell to Iran. Putin personally talks about it, doesn't deny it
 
MrFord
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 8:26 am

Bowling for Columbine, that was a great documentary for sure  Smile.

I too wait about thoses 'Secret mass destruction weapons'...
They are probably in the US, waiting for delivery  Wink/being sarcastic !
"For radar identification throw your jumpseat rider out the window."
 
cwapilot
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:02 am

"Maybe the world would be safer and better without Air Force One and the dummy guy inside..."

As far as I know, dummies are not allowed aboard AF1, as there is no need for crash tests or for clothing to be modeled during flight...plus they frighten the Presidential dogs.

We'd be even BETTER off with out adolescent name callers...so there, Mister Dummy Man Poopy Pants!

Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
 
srbmod
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:19 am

This one plot being thwarted is perhaps one of many that are underway worldwide. With a number of Soviet-era man-portable missiles unaccounted for and rumored to be available on the black market, it really is a matter of time before it (a passenger jet shootdown) really happens. This bust reminds me of the IRA's attempts during the 1980s to acquire Stinger missiles in order to shootdown RUC helos.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:37 am

I hate resorting to discussing the subject of this thread, but....  Big grin

First off, as most everyone knows (including the bad guys), AF1 and other high-value aircraft (NASA 747 SCA, etc) all have IR countermeasures. 'Nuff said...

The move to adapt IR countermeasures to civilian transports will quite likely be accelerated by these most recent events. There are litterally thousands of man-portable IR-based surface-to-air missiles that have been produced worldwide in the last +/- 25 years, and the one reportedly involved in the news story is just a single one of those. It could be argued that it's just a matter of time before some one or some group is able to successfully get some into the country, and worse, use them.

Were that to happen, the effects on the transporation industry and overall economy could in many ways be quite worse and more prolonged than the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks.

The 9/11 attacks took time to plan and execute, and they exploited the "security" stuff in place at the time. An attack by shoulder-fired missiles wouldn't need to depend upon breaching the airport security checkpoint--any place within 3-5 mile "footprint" around the airport would do, just pull one out of the car trunk and let it fly. Sorta hard to police any/all activity within that 3-5 mile urban area, especially when these weapons are so comparatively small, and the vehicles so mobile.

Should something occur, and I hope it doesn't, public confidence in the air transportation system would evaporate quickly, and few would want to risk riding. The "fix" (onboard IR countermeasures" wouldn't happen overnight), and what airline could withstand the loss of revenue until "fixes" were available? The trickle-down effects to the economy could be just as bad, and long-lasting.

This stuff is a huge threat to our country and its economy, and those of other countries. Hope they can mitigate the risk before something happens...

ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
hmmmm...
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:43 am

My thoughts exactly, OPNLguy. Had terrorists been successful in destroying another airliner following 9/11, it has been said, and I think rightfully so, that the airline industry would have tanked. Another successful attack of any nature would have so psychologically scarred the American public that most of those who continued to fly after 9/11 would have not done so had there been another calamity. In other words, the terrorists came very close to destroying a critical pillar of the economy, for want of another strike.

If they can destroy another airliner, or more than one, that could cause the industry, which is already staggering, to a point of meltdown. One little pot shot, from one little squirt like Mohammad Atta, will mean big consequences. The terrorists have us by the balls. Our fate rests with them because our fate is tied to the state of our economy and the fate of our economy is tied to the airline industry. And the fate of the airline industry is tied to a missile in the trunk of some guy's car.

I just don't see a happy ending to this. I'll tell you why. British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher was very lucky to survive an IRA hotel bombing in 1984 Brighton, where her and members of her government were staying. A good portion of the building was destroyed. Neither she, nor any member of her parliament, was hurt. Almost a miracle. Afterwards the IRA took responsibility for the bombing but sounded a very optimistic tone. They boasted that they would eventually prevail in their struggle because, as they put it, "You (the British government) have to be lucky every time. We only have to be lucky once."

It's only a matter of time.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:54 am

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/systems/an-alq-204.htm

This is an older version on the old AF1, and the newer versions are even smaller, and don't make the airccraft look like a 1959 Cadillac...

Considering the advances made in electronics in recent years, hopefully an all-out push by the manufacuring community can pump these babies out. I read where there are about 7,000 aircraft in the domestic fleet, so that's 14,000 at a minimum for twins, 21,000 if they want to cover the APU as well. Throw-in another few thousand for the various tri-jets and 747s, and spares, and you're probably looking at 25,000 to 30,000 units.

Were an airline to go out and install these (before it was a government requirement), you can imagine what their load factors would be after a successful attack.

Pray for the peaceful world, my friend...

ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
VS340
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:55 am

I especially loved his caring attitude when he sold Nuclear reactors to Iran... this shows how much he gets it.

+++++++++


Funny, isn't the US and UK currently in Iraq looking for the chemical weapons that they sold to Saddam? I guess they get it too
 
backfire
Topic Author
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:47 pm

Now I'm curious.

If it's well-known to a bunch of plane spotters that Air Force One has infra-red countermeasures, then it must be similarly well-known to anyone with thoughts about blasting it from the sky.

In which case, why go through the trouble of trying to buy an IR-guided weapon? Unless there's something else about this particular missile that makes it useful.
 
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johnboy
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 4:29 pm

DoorsToManual said...

Secret Service

"Do you mean the FBI? Or does the US have a dedicated domestic secret intelligence service I'm not aware of?"


The Secret Service is certainly most famous for guarding the President of the U.S.


In the old TV show, "The Wild, Wild West" James West and Artemus Gordon (played by Robert Conrad and Ross Martin, respectively), were the United States' first two Secret Service agents under the direction of President Ulysses S. Grant.

Useless bit of trivia I know, but memorable to me because somehow Robert Conrad always ended up stripped to his waist and tied to some device like a damsel in distress.

Loved it!

 
voodoo
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 6:40 pm

Yawn. Its all spin.
There was no `plot thwarted'.
Some idiot with no conscience whatsoever tried to make bucks as a middleman selling a missile...but he had no intention of doing an attack himself...the FBI posed as those`potential terrorists'.
At best, one middleman has been taken out of the loop. There are plenty more middlemen than terrorists I would say...given enough money offered. And I would think any effective terrorist plot would cut out unknown middlemen anyway. Thus I would say the net gain from this arrest = zero.
Return to regular programming and useless airport hassles.

[Edited 2003-08-13 11:53:14]
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
Skymonster
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 7:10 pm

Too right Voodoo!!!

The headline "Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled" shows exactly how such stories are sensationalised to get high-profile press, and how a situation can be bent to persuade the public that there's a bigger problem than there really is.

This was not a terrorist plot - it was a sting operation set up by the security services in Russia, the UK and the US. Between them, they managed to get an arms dealer to try to import a non-functioning missle into the US - the missle was made non-functioning by the Russians before the sting started. At all times the missle was tracked and its location was known. There were no terrorists waiting to buy it - it was FBI agents posing as terrorists who were the customer.

All this episode really illustrates is that there are people in the world who are prepared to ship arms to pretty much anyone, for money. There is no evidence that terrorists or anyone else has already shipped missles into the US. Sure, a terrorist organisation could find another arms dealer, but there's no indication that a missle would get into the USA - everyone involved in shipping and customs has to continue to be dilligent to make sure that they don't.

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
DoorsToManual
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 7:12 pm

About the IR countermeasures - are they designed to deal with more than just one instance of surface - air missiles being fired, or can they deal with simoultaneous attacks?

About the US secret service - do they have any other role apart from just protecting the president? For example, MI5's role in the UK is to gather and analyse intelligence to prevent terrorist attacks or other such activity on British soil - this isn't really the same as just protecting the British PM, and nothing else.


rgds
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 7:40 pm

IR Countermeasures that project heat should work continuously in most cases.

The Secret Service investigates counterfeiting of US Currency and deals with all Currency related issues regarding fraud of the treasury.

It is speculated now that the port the missile came into was Baltimore, any words on that. I know the guy flew into New Jersey, but the report said 'an east coast port city' was where they got the missile in. any more words???


Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Capt-AWACS, Yankee Air Pirate
Io voglio fica ogni giorni da mia bella moglie!
 
hmmmm...
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 8:29 pm

"About the US secret service - do they have any other role apart from just protecting the president?

Yes. Strangely enough, their other duty is to fight counterfeiting.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
tsully
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:01 pm

Maybe the world would be safer and better without Air Force One and the dummy guy inside...

Too Low


Too Low:


No, but we'd certainly be better off without Europeans like you pretending to know the first thing about American politics. What grounds have you for calling my President a dummy? He may not be an impotent laid back cat, as I know are common place in your Euro leadership, but that doesn't make him a dummy. This is one Yank who won't buy your uneducated European nonsense.
I love America. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle, but I'd rather be a dog in New York City than a prince in Riyadh.
 
MD80Nut
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:19 pm

Bowling For Columbine is not a documentary, it's a propaganda film. Moore deliberately manipulated the sequences of events he portrayed to make it seem like they happened like he showed, but they did not! I know many outside the US like the film because it fits their preconceptions of what it's like here, but it's as accurate a portrayal of Americans as a Bob and Doug McKenzie episode on the old Second City TV show is of Canadians! In other words, not accurate.

Just My 3 cents. Ralph
Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
 
mandala499
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:32 am

Secret Service's most prominent roles:
1. Protecting the President of the United States.
2. Fight Counterfeiting.
3. Protecting strategic civilian infrastructure like power stations. Although this one is a low key role and is more dependent on other agencies.

On #3, the USSS would handle known terrorist warnings if say a city's power grid is going to be attacked. Frankly I dunno if this is still the case... and I wonder why an airport doesn't come under this... Big grin

The USSS is the one that is charged with protecting the US from economic terrorism (the physical kind)... Well, that was the term someone used.

Back to IRCM... The RAF BAe146s carry IR-Jammers and IR-seeker detector. Most of the world's portable SAMs are IR-seeking. A Radar Guided missile tend to be bigger and require additional equipment. A TV guided missile, such as the Maverick, have not man-portable capability as far as I know.

IR-seeking missile needs to have it's seeker head and its gyros serviced often. So a missile that's been stolen years back, chances are that it will not be able to function properly if used prior to reservicing. The problem is, terrorists don't care about a one missile one kill! They're there to terrorize us, even a near miss by an IR missile would be enough to cause panic. For them, a hit, is just a bonus...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Vimanav
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Thu Aug 14, 2003 2:35 am

What grounds have you for calling my President a dummy? He may not be an impotent laid back cat, as I know are common place in your Euro leadership, but that doesn't make him a dummy.

Exactoquaciously, as probabliculously the US Presidentification would commentize.

Anyways, Bushisms aside, I am glad whoever it was, missed - because that sure is too beautiful a plane to lose. My dear American friends - you have had some truly wonderful Presidents you can be really proud of. You may even feel that George Bush has made all the right moves during his tenure.. but lets face it, he didn't catch Osama, he did not get the WMDs in Iraq and all he has managed, is to inflame anti-American sentiments even in those corners of the world where you have had friends.

Sorrifications if this hurtifies... but I am sureified that most will agreementize with my views.

rgds//Vimanav


Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
potomac
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Thu Aug 14, 2003 2:58 am

Just to correct the mission of the USSS - and I'm not so sure about the power grid protection responsibility...

The United States Secret Service is mandated by statute and executive order to carry out two significant missions: protection and criminal investigations. The Secret Service protects the President and Vice President, their families, heads of state, and other designated individuals; investigates threats against these protectees; protects the White House, Vice President’s Residence, Foreign Missions, and other buildings within Washington, D.C.; and plans and implements security designs for designated National Special Security Events. The Secret Service also investigates violations of laws relating to counterfeiting of obligations and securities of the United States; financial crimes that include, but are not limited to, access device fraud, financial institution fraud, identity theft, computer fraud; and computer-based attacks on our nation’s financial, banking, and telecommunications infrastructure.

 
Slcpilot
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Thu Aug 14, 2003 3:18 am

Sadly, I think OPNLguy is right, and we have a lot to lose with a fragile economy here in the US as it is. Heck, it wouldn't even take an AA weapon. If that kid in Tampa had planted his C-172 into an airliner waiting to take off it would have changed avaition as we know it. Imagine no planes within 30 miles of a major airport unless they're on a flight plan having left a secure gate. Most GA would cease to exist, and most passengers on departing planes would live in fear with the sight of any plane smaller than an RJ. If you wanted to fly for fun you might go to the desert west here in the US or someplace else remote.

I once read about a private pilot completing a GA flight in Isreal. It seems like it was a very tightly controlled "event" totally unlike flight in most of the free world. I hope it never happens....

I don't like to be fueled by anger, I don't like to be fooled by lust...
 
GDB
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Thu Aug 14, 2003 3:40 am

Actually the Brighton bomb did kill some MPs, and others, but the point is well made.

Since 1974, when the PLO tried to smuggle SAM-7s into Italy and the UK, to attack El-Al airliners, the threat of shoulder fired SAMs to airliners has been real.
I think a Rhodesian Viscount was downed by one in the 1970's.

It does appear that this latest incident was part of an effort to find and stop the supply of SAMs to potential terrorists, before networks mature.

However, those who don't think the threat is real should remind themselves of the attack on the Israeli 757 in Kenya last year, luckily the old SAM-7 copies used were not up to much, these SA-16 and SA-18s are much more effective, really a Stinger equivalent.

So many of these were produced, so many were not accounted for when the USSR imploded, you get the feeling it's just a matter of time.

Now you know why troops were deployed around LHR in Febuary, contary to the impression of news reports, most were on the perimeter, a SAM attack was expected, really it's been expected for nearly 30 years. Now however the terrorist threat is more apparent.

The US cannot account for some 400 Stingers they gave to the Afghans fighting the USSR, officially these would now be time-expired, but it would be unwise to discount the ability of terrorists to make them workable, who would have thought of the plan to use hi-jacked planes as missiles on Sept 10th 2001?

AF1 is well protected against SAM attack, but a real plot would probably be against a US or UK civil widebody, preferably over a densely populated area, from the terrorists point of view.

Al-Queda are somewhat obsessed with targeting airliners, as we have seen.

After abortive attempts to get US Redeye and Stinger weapons, and with the Shorts factory in Northern Ireland with made the Blowpipe/Javelin and now Starstreak weapons being well guarded, (unlike US and Russian weapons these are not IR guided and are supersonic, but require a lot of training to use), the IRA finally got SAM-7s from Libya in 1987, as revenge for the UK allowing the US to attack Libya from UK bases.
Fortunately, a shipment was stopped, others got through but British Military helicopters in N.I. got countermeasures fitted, as well as VIP aircraft and transports operating out of the area.
So the IRA never got to use them, it would not have worked for them, they would not attack a ramdom civil airliner like Al-Queda, as it would be bad PR as well as any US casualties hitting their funding and support networks in the USA.

When the Queen visited the mid East in 1984, a BA L1011-200 used was given a temporary fit of IR countermeasures, with RAF support.
So this is all not so new, just more apparent and with total fanatics seeking to use them.

Sadly, it probably is just a matter of time.
 
GDB
Posts: 14069
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Thu Aug 14, 2003 3:43 am

Actually the Brighton bomb did kill some MPs, and others, but the point is well made.

Since 1974, when the PLO tried to smuggle SAM-7s into Italy and the UK, to attack El-Al airliners, the threat of shoulder fired SAMs to airliners has been real.
I think a Rhodesian Viscount was downed by one in the 1970's.

It does appear that this latest incident was part of an effort to find and stop the supply of SAMs to potential terrorists, before networks mature.

However, those who don't think the threat is real should remind themselves of the attack on the Israeli 757 in Kenya last year, luckily the old SAM-7 copies used were not up to much, these SA-16 and SA-18s are much more effective, really a Stinger equivalent.

So many of these were produced, so many were not accounted for when the USSR imploded, you get the feeling it's just a matter of time.

Now you know why troops were deployed around LHR in Febuary, contary to the impression of news reports, most were on the perimeter, a SAM attack was expected, really it's been expected for nearly 30 years. Now however the terrorist threat is more apparent.

The US cannot account for some 400 Stingers they gave to the Afghans fighting the USSR, officially these would now be time-expired, but it would be unwise to discount the ability of terrorists to make them workable, who would have thought of the plan to use hi-jacked planes as missiles on Sept 10th 2001?

AF1 is well protected against SAM attack, but a real plot would probably be against a US or UK civil widebody, preferably over a densely populated area, from the terrorists point of view.

Al-Queda are somewhat obsessed with targeting airliners, as we have seen.

After abortive attempts to get US Redeye and Stinger weapons, and with the Shorts factory in Northern Ireland with made the Blowpipe/Javelin and now Starstreak weapons being well guarded, (unlike US and Russian weapons these are not IR guided and are supersonic, but require a lot of training to use), the IRA finally got SAM-7s from Libya in 1987, as revenge for the UK allowing the US to attack Libya from UK bases.
Fortunately, a shipment was stopped, others got through but British Military helicopters in N.I. got countermeasures fitted, as well as VIP aircraft and transports operating out of the area.
So the IRA never got to use them, it would not have worked for them, they would not attack a ramdom civil airliner like Al-Queda, as it would be bad PR as well as any US casualties hitting their funding and support networks in the USA.

When the Queen visited the mid East in 1984, a BA L1011-200 used was given a temporary fit of IR countermeasures, with RAF support.
So this is all not so new, just more apparent and with total fanatics seeking to use them.

Sadly, it probably is just a matter of time.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 13822
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:17 am

The missile shipment was part of an internationally cooperative sting to catch a rogue arms dealer. Nothing more.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:18 am

>>>The missile shipment was part of an internationally cooperative sting to catch a rogue arms dealer. Nothing more.

-This- one, -this- time.

They had an ex-government guy on one of the news shows this morning, and he mentioned that 8 firms had been tasked to come up with suitable ICRM designs so they can get a handle on cost estimates, with reports on this due soon. Figuring they'd need (I'm guessing) 25,000-30,000 of these things, they'll probably have some (if not all) of the 8 firms manufacture them so as to get the nation's fleets equipped ASAP.

If the government is even -asking- the defense industry to come up with cost estimates, that would indicate to me that they consider the missile problem REAL, even though it has yet to be manifested by an actual event here. It almost happened to the El Al flight in Kenya--it doesn't take much of a stretch of the imagination to see the potentials here, especially with the vastness of our borders and the freedoms we have here.

I hope we win the race, and get the fleets IRCM-equipped as soon as possible...



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
potomac
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RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:34 am

well, the better question is what is the best way to use $$$ in this case: outfitting airliners with missile defense systems that identify threats and release chaff is very expensive. and that mechanism isnt totally reliable, even on military aircraft. missile defense or not, a near miss could be just as damaging to the airline industry as a hit. is it better then to direct the $$ to the source of the problem, focusing on preventing the weapons from getting into the wrong hands?
 
OPNLguy
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Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:58 am

Just my meager opinion, but I don't think folks, specifically, potential passengers will likely be swayed by the "instead of IRCM we're spending the money on eradicating terrorism" argument. Many passengers, not to mention the media folks, have become more savvy as far as technology goes, and they're not going to accept the notion that all terrorism can be eradicated. Crank in the fact that GWB and other VIPs ride around on IRCM-equipped aircraft, and folks are going to insist, if not outright demand the same technology-driven protection.

...and just to clarify, I don't see chaff/flare installations here, strictly electronics-driven stuff.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
potomac
Posts: 692
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 5:06 am

RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:09 am

well i agree that passengers would rather be on a plane with missle defense systems, especially if the threat of them being fired upon is real. but if that threat is real, and it does happen - hit or miss - you're not going to have many people on those planes period. i agree that you cant just get rid of all the missile threats, but billions and billions of $$$ to equip planes may not be the best solution either. especially if it isnt a near 100% reliable solution.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Passenger Jet Shootdown Foiled

Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:26 am

>>>hit or miss - you're not going to have many people on those planes period.

True, especially in a world with non-IRCM-equipped aircraft. Getting them so-equipped would do alot more to instill confidence in the public's flying again moreso than not spending the money on IRCM and directing the money at general efforts to eradicate terrorism, as if it could be.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.

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