Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
atrude777
Topic Author
Posts: 4412
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

America West-Becoming A Major?

Sat Sep 06, 2003 11:21 pm

I rarely ever see a topic focusing on America West the airline. Uusally the topics about them are the routes and cities they are adding. Now, I got the newest issue of the Airways Magazine, adn was surprised to see the cover photo of America West planes. They did a small paragraph about the airline saying thats its the poster airline for deregulation having survived bankruptcy and how its "risen above the ashes" so to speak... Big grin and have become one of the best airlines for LCC. Now that got me thinking, while I agree it has done alot and been through alot, it makes me wonder how far along before we can classify America West as a major airline? Basically I want this topic to be about America West and what you think the future will be like for them...

I have only flown them once to PHX, and was to young to remember the service so I can't speak for AWA, however I would love to try them again should I head to the west. I was very surprised for them to add a STL-LAS non-stop. Was this in retaliation to AA dropping flights? Or is this to fight against SWA, who recently started another N/S flight to LAS. We have 1 or from AA, 2 from WN and 1 from AWA. Well, what are your thoguhts about them? Aircrafts you see them buying in the future??? Routes?? Let me hear them!!

Alex.
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
Matt D
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sat Sep 06, 2003 11:30 pm

I believe that HP IS a "Major", defined as a carrier with revenues >$1 billion per annum, and has been for quite some time now.
 
cancidas
Posts: 3985
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2003 7:34 am

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sat Sep 06, 2003 11:35 pm

i flew them once, and Mesa (thier subsidiary) once also. i was very satisfied by the service. i even talked with the flight crews for nearly an hour after the flight. everyone there was very welcoming.

as to them becoming a major, i doubt that will happen unless they begin to serve international destinations and compete with the other very well established carriers. for them to do so would require a substantial aircraft order, one which i doubt that managment is willing to make. they found a niche for themselves are are profiting from it. i believe that they will stay where they are for a while to come, and ejoy the fruits of thier labor.

as to aicraft orders, they will probably stay with the A320 family of a/c for commonality purposes. that family of a/c has good capabilities all around.
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 12:35 am

I do not see them as a major at all. I also do not see them as LCC airline either. They don't price their tickets at all in the region of the Jetblues or Southwests, although I am sure that low fares can be got with them as with the rest of the carriers.

The gulf between some of the "majors" is huge. AA for example is completely different league in size from Continental for example. Look at the amount of just 767's that AA has compared to planes Continental has, Never mind AA's fleet of everything else....
 
capt078
Posts: 415
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:52 am

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 1:27 am

first of all, we have to understand what the term "major" is. the term "major" was applied to airlines by the federal government. matt d is correct, they must have annual revenues in excess of $1 billion. thus, america west IS a major. furthermore, america west is the 8th largest airline in the u.s., and the 25th (i believe) in the world.
 
m717
Posts: 540
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 1:01 pm

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 1:38 am

"I do not see them as a major at all."

Whether you "see them as a major" or not has no bearing on the argument. The US DOT classifies them as a major by the definition that others have pointed out. That takes any subjectivity out of it. They ARE a major.

i flew them once, and Mesa (their subsidiary) once also. i was very satisfied by the service. i even talked with the flight crews for nearly an hour after the flight. everyone there was very welcoming.

as to them becoming a major, i doubt that will happen unless they begin to serve international destinations."


Two points. Mesa is not a "subsidiary" of America West, in that they are not owned by America West. They are owned by Mesa Air Group, which contracts with America West for their services.

Secondly, as has been mentioned before, America West is already a major as defined by the US Dept of Transportation.
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 1:46 am

Whether you "see them as a major" or not has no bearing on the argument
********************

Yes Corporal. Actually this is a discussion board, and I was discussing how I see them. There is nothing in the title of this thread that suggests anything about what the government classifies them as, so I commented on what I see them as. At the moment, Continental are rated the 7th largest in the world, and the gulf between America West and Continental is massive. America West doesnt do long haul, has very little international presence, and if you asked most people around the world, they would not have heard of America West.

So despite what you say, subjectivity has plenty to do with the discussion

Jeremy

 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 1:50 am

I have a few good experiences with HP... mostly DCA-CMH rt.

But all of my other experiences with HP have been among the most horrible I've ever had flying.

Lately, however, their customer service apparently has improved leaps and bounds and their plane interiors have been slightly updated. This could go a long way to make my next Vegas vacation a slightly more pleasant one. (Thanks UA for reducing your IAD-LAS frequencies).

N
 
hockey55dude
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 1:48 am

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 2:08 am

Well with America West-Becoming A Major do you think they will get some more planes?
 
WNfan
Posts: 198
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:27 am

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 2:20 am

America West has done something that is very rare in the airline industry: They have reinvented themselves.

Two years ago they decided to stop gouging last-minute passengers, and changed their entire pricing structure such that Saturday night stays aren't required for good fares. As a result, CO discontinued their partnership with HP.

But the airline has emerged from bankruptcy, closed their CMH hub (retaining only a few flights), and begun to operate profitably. Their new transcon announcements are exciting, and their baggage handling and on-time statistics have rebounded. I used to call them "America Worst" but have abandoned using the term.

In the 1990s I used them to fly late-night runs from AUS-LAS and SAT-LAS. They still provide red-eye service non-stop from LAS to many destinations.

And they are certainly a major airline.

This LCC cheerleader is hoping that America West's growth, simple pricing scheme, and profits continue for many years.
 
m717
Posts: 540
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 1:01 pm

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 2:41 am

"So despite what you say, subjectivity has plenty to do with the discussion."

The original poster posed this question in the opening paragraph of the thread he titled "America West-Becoming A Major"; "...it makes me wonder how far along before we can classify America West as a major airline?". This question was answered by the DOT years ago when they "classified them as a major airline".

So, discuss away, my good man. It won't change the fact that America West is a major airline. That's my point. Nothing you nor anyone else can say will change that fact. Now what does subjectivity have to do with it?



G'day.


[Edited 2003-09-06 19:47:52]
 
DeltaMD11
Posts: 1680
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:56 am

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 4:16 am

I've flown America West more times than I can remember off of the top of my head, mainly between PHL and SAN---as well as EWR-SAN (with stops in PHX or LAS of course). First off, to back up M717, Matt D, and Capt078 said, as defined by the US Dept. of Transportation, America West Airlines is a US major airline. Furthermore, as defined by the DOT Alaska Airlines and ATA are major carriers---whom are both smaller than America West. As I posted in another thread, the ICAO defines these as the major airlines in the United States, from largest to smallest in terms of RPM:

1) American Airlines
2) United Airlines
3) Delta Air Lines
4) Northwest Airlines
5) Continental Airlines
6) Southwest Airlines
7) US Airways
8) America West Airlines
9) Alaska Airlines
10) ATA (formerly American Trans Air of course, but has since just reverted to ATA only)

My experiences with America West have been amiable, and I have always been an advocate for them on this site. As far as aircraft types in ther fleet, I have flown on their 752's, A320's, A319's, 733, 732 and a CRJ-200 operated by Mesa.

As stated above, America West is the only airline to achieve major status that started after deregulation in the United States---which is a big feat. Not only that but at one time they were no-hands down the "worst airline in the United States". But they really have turned themselves around over the past 4 or 5 years and are heading in the right direction. In the future, it would be nice to see America West lease some larger aircraft and start serving larger markets-but whether that can/will happen only time will tell. They have good on-time statistics, operate a great fleet, have friendly staff/crew members, and excellent customer service. What more could you ask for in an airline?
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
Midway2AirTran
Posts: 847
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 7:34 am

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 7:53 am

My recent experience with HP has been a good one flying between RDU-PHX and RDU-LAS. Nice clean aircraft, nice crew members and the like. They even give great attention to the non-revs! I have also done PHX-OAK on one of the older B737's for them and that still wasn't too bad of an experience either. I hope they keep up the good work!
"Life is short, but your delay in ATL is not."
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8152
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 8:03 am

Remember all the different definitions and classifications.....

The textbook definitions are solely based upon revenue.

Majors- annual revenues of more than $1 Billion
Nationals-annual revenues of $75 million to $1 Billion
Regionals- annual revenue of less than $75 million

You can rank size on many number of factors such as, but no limited to:
Passenger, ASM's, RPM's, fleet size, routes served, operating revenue, etc, etc, etc

Then you have what are considered network carriers, point-to-point carriers, and the term LCC. Lots of people misuse these terms frequently.

 
elwood64151
Posts: 2410
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2002 10:22 am

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 8:23 am

Artsyman:

I do not see them as a major at all. I also do not see them as LCC airline either. They don't price their tickets at all in the region of the Jetblues or Southwests, although I am sure that low fares can be got with them as with the rest of the carriers.

I was just looking around online the other day when I saw HP BDL-LAX Jan 10-16 for $283. That's about $150 less than WN, and, guess what: Only $125 less than the majors.

HP has revenues greater than $1B, and carries more than 10 million passengers a year. By the definitions I've seen, they are a major carrier.

America West doesnt do long haul, has very little international presence, and if you asked most people around the world, they would not have heard of America West.

Uh, HP is just about to add N/S flights between several east- and west-coast cities (JFK & BOS to LAX & SFO). And all their flights to the east coast are long-haul, as their hubs are PHX and LAS. Further, they serve Mexico and Canada, and have code-share arrangements to Hawaii and to several other countries.

Sorry to single you out, but I have to disagree.

I am certain our next "New Major" will be AirTran, followed, perhaps shortly thereafter, by JetBlue.

I do not see Frontier becoming a major for some time, unless it merges with someone else, like Spirit or Midwest, which I don't see happening in the foreseeable future.

If B6 merged with F9, we might see it as a major sooner than FL, but again I don't see this happening.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 9:49 am

While I appreciate that the government defines a major as over a billion revenue, I would say that the average person defines the majors as the cartel carriers. If you look at the top 6, AA, UAL, DL, NW, CO, US etc, they all fly international longhaul routes, and have a broad domestic route system that spans more or less the whole country, where as America West does neither. I actually love them, and that may have been lost in this thread, but I feel like there is a huge gap between them and the others. I feel like some of you are taking these comments out of context however. Any company that has planes that costs hundreds of millions of dollars are obviously a major entity, and America West are no exception, but if you were to ask 99% of the people on airliners if they considered America West in the same league with AA, UAL, DL, NW, CO, US etc, they could not. I don't consider Southwest a cartel carrier, and they carry more passengers than any of the US carriers.

I was merely commenting on what my perception of what a major is.

Jeremy


[Edited 2003-09-07 02:57:15]
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8152
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 9:54 am

First of all cartel carriers is a made up term, mostly used by our fellow user DCA-ROCguy.

Those that you consider majors, are actually appropriately termed network carriers. They can get you most anywhere in the country, and international, either through their own service or codeshare.

HP is not a network carrier, but if your revenue is large enough, they are a major. Same thing for WN.
 
phfev03
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 2:51 am

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 9:58 am

whether or not you realize it but ASA (delta connection) based on the dot is considered a major airline. Now if that doesn't tell you something about HP being a major, then we're all in trouble.


regards,
phfev03
 
DeltaMD11
Posts: 1680
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:56 am

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 10:33 am

If you want to take it that far, American Eagle is also a US major airline.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
Jeff G
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 9:56 am

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 10:59 am

I am certain our next "New Major" will be AirTran, followed, perhaps shortly thereafter, by JetBlue.

I don't disagree with that, except perhaps the order. JetBlue has fewer aircraft but actually has higher revenues than AirTran and is growing faster. Revenue for the first 6 months of 2003: AirTran $441.9M, JetBlue $461.8M. One or both will become a major airline in 2004 (or even 2003) but probably JetBlue will be first.
 
expressjetphx
Posts: 259
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 2:33 pm

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 2:17 pm

Artsyman posted someone else's quote, but I can't find it to respond to. As a matter of fact, in addition to the new transcontinental service (LAX-JFK, LAX-BOS, SFO-JFK, SFO-BOS), and services to every major city in Canada and Mexico, America West just announced a nonstop flight between Phoenix and San Jose, Costa Rica using the A319. Service begins Dec. 1, 2003.
 
BN747
Posts: 7898
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 2:22 pm

Without a doubt HP is a major...but I see the perspective in which Atrude777 'cases' HP. Many travellers who aren't aware or could careless about DOT or ICAO classifications also don't see HP as a major..although they are! Just as many people see #7(of the top 10)--Southwest--as a Greyhound Bus with wings! They just don't see them that way. But we know technically and physically they certainly are majors.

Personally I can't stand HP everytime I've flown them they've been worst that LUV (Southwest) can imagine. Okay not everytime...but most of the time. But airline service/reputations can change and I hope there's does. I don't wish for any airline to go out of business no matter how crappy they are....that will take care of itself. They are still young in comparison and like a previous post stated...they have re-invented themselves! More power to them!
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
AirVB
Posts: 266
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 4:21 am

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 2:36 pm

It's been said before many times, AWA is the only post-deregulation carrier to achieve major carrier status. While some said above that they don't really classify America West has a LCC, they do offer competitive fares, but I heard or read somewhere that they were/are trying to become a low-cost, premium service airline. Whether this is completely true right now, I don't know, but my only experience with America West in 2000 was not a very pleasant one. Three out of the four flights from LAX-COS were delayed due to reasons beside weather and the service was less than satisfactory. I've been reading around these forums that they are improving their product after being named AMerica's Worst Airline by Airways magazine, and they seem to be adding a ton of routes (save closing the CMH hub). They've been through a lot and I hope they only grow stronger.

AirVB
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 2:37 pm

Artsyman posted someone else's quote, but I can't find it to respond to
*********************

If I did this, it was certainly coincidence, what was the quote that I posted ?. If you are refering to the first line in my posts followed by ***** etc, that is just to show what part I am commenting on. Otherwise I am not sure what you are refering to, if you can be more specific, perhaps I can help you figure it out.

Jeremy
 
expressjetphx
Posts: 259
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 2:33 pm

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 4:45 pm

Im sorry, it was Elwood64151 who posted :

America West doesnt do long haul, has very little international presence, and if you asked most people around the world, they would not have heard of America West.

but it said Artsyman at the beginning of the bost. Very sorry again.
 
expressjetphx
Posts: 259
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 2:33 pm

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 4:46 pm

post* sorry didn't catch that one...
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: America West-Becoming A Major?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 4:46 pm

No problem at all, happy we cleared it up

Jeremy

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos