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OPNLguy
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757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 4:26 am

Jungle drums are reporting that ATA has a 757 that landed at MDW on 31C and the nose went off the end of the end of the runway, through the ILS localizer antenna, and into the blast fence. No injuries initially reported, and the runway is closed indefinitely...



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
mandala499
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 4:31 am

Sounds like a bad week for the 757  Sad

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
OPNLguy
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 4:49 am

Doesn't look too bad, thankfully. Aircraft appears to be pretty, indicating the nose gear didn't fail. Main gears are still on the hard surface, so it shouldn't be too much to tow it back completely on the hard surface...

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/news/090803_ns_midwayplane.html
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
OPNLguy
Topic Author
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 4:50 am

Doesn't look too bad, thankfully. Aircraft appears to be pretty LEVEL, indicating the nose gear didn't fail. Main gears are still on the hard surface, so it shouldn't be too much to tow it back completely on the hard surface...

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/news/090803_ns_midwayplane.html
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Corsair2
Posts: 243
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:09 am

From the photo the aircraft looks like a -300 series. A 757-300 seems like a rather large aircraft to put into MDW. What is a standard runway length for this aircraft?
"We have clearance Clarence. Roger, Roger. What's our vector Victor?"
 
Chgoan
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:12 am

I was wondering when this was gonna happen! Its so tight sometimes for those 757s.....you don't land on those piano keys and you're crossin your fingers the rest of the way down. Surprised it hasn't before....and been worse.
 
Chgoan
Posts: 217
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:18 am

Actually found some better pictures (click "next" to see them all) on the NBC 5 Chicago web site....

http://html.nbc5.com/sh/slideshow/_auto/sh29119s1.html

On the last picture you'll see the skid marks as it tried to stop...
 
cedarjet
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:27 am

Skid marks show how hard they tried to stop. Usual misinformation from the press, NBC 5 seem to think the 757-300 seats a total of 120. If there'd only been 120 people on that 753, they'd probably have stopped before the end of the runway.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
WNfan
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:28 am

Wow, that's quite a story. I'm glad no-one was hurt.

I hope this doesn't result in the elimination of 757s at MDW. Needless to say this would adversely affect ATA's operations.
 
brons2
Posts: 2480
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:29 am

Runway 13C/31C
Dimensions: 6522 x 150 ft. / 1988 x 46 m
Surface: concrete/grooved, in good condition
Weight limitations:
Single wheel: 95000 lbs
Double wheel: 165000 lbs
Double tandem: 250000 lbs
Runway edge lights: high intensity
RUNWAY 13C RUNWAY 31C
Latitude: 41-47.49435N 41-46.75438N
Longitude: 087-45.66403W 087-44.62430W
Elevation: 607.1 ft. 611.7 ft.
Traffic pattern: left left
Runway heading: 135 magnetic, 134 true 315 magnetic, 314 true
Displaced threshold: 463 ft. 696 ft.
Markings: precision, in good condition precision, in good condition
Visual slope indicator: 4-light PAPI on right (3.00 degrees glide path)
PAPI OTS INDEFLY. 4-box VASI on left (3.00 degrees glide path)
RVR equipment: touchdown
Approach lights: LDIN: lead-in light system
Runway end identifier lights: no yes
Touchdown point: yes, no lights yes, no lights
Instrument approach: ILS/DME ILS/DME
Obstructions: 15 ft. road, 200 ft. from runway, 225 ft. right of centerline
APCH RATIO 20:1 AT DSPLCD THLD. ROAD 600 FT R 300 FT FROM DSPLCD THLD. 47 ft. road, 200 ft. from runway, 225 ft. left of centerline
APCH RATIO 20:1 AT DSPLCD THR. STREET LGT 650 FT FROM DSPLCD THR 500 FT R.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
brons2
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:31 am

SNA seems to make do with an even shorter runway....although 6522 is real short for a 753, seems like.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
n844aa
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:41 am

What happens to the captain in a case like this? I assume (though this may be jumping the gun) that there is some negligence/poor judgment involved; will disciplinary measures depend on the level of negligence/poor judgment present?

I suppose I'm asking in general terms about a particular occurence, so let me expand my inquiry -- would something like (landing several hundred feet too far down a short runway) this lead to the end of a pilot's career, either with a particular company or in general? How would the consequences differ for the FO?

On the one hand, it seems like there aren't many mistakes that can end a pilot's career -- I'm thinking of the rehabilitation program for alcohol offenders. But then you have those WN pilots who took off their clothes and were promptly fired. I'm wondering where on that spectrum accidents like this fall.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
727LOVER
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:47 am

Is that the LONGEST runway at MDW? What are the lenghts of the others?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
OPNLguy
Topic Author
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:49 am

Before any punitive actions like that can even be considered, one has to (of course) wait for an official cause. It's by no means automatic pilot error--there are mechanical possibilities such as the aircraft's anti-skid system failing at the most inopportune time. (On a "normal" runway, that'd had been a non-event, but at MDW...)

If the cause were later to be determined to have been pilot-related, (and let me re-iterate that -IF- ), they could get time off (a week or two) without pay. I personally doubt they'd lose their licenses or jobs...

Now, back to waiting for the official cause....

ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Corsair2
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:50 am

Was it safe to land a 757-300 at MDW on a 6500ft runway? Midway is a neat and state-of-the art airport fly into but it cannot handle large aircraft. All the facts aren't in yet, but I don't think its such a good idea to point blame at the pilots for overruning the runway.
"We have clearance Clarence. Roger, Roger. What's our vector Victor?"
 
potomac
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:50 am

yes, it is. 4R/22L at 6446ft is the next longest.


 
n844aa
Posts: 1266
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 6:06 am

Sorry, I didn't mean to say pilot error was definitely the cause; I was more referring to the propensity to pin the blame on pilots for errors like this. Re-reading, I see I was terribly unclear.

In any case, I'm interested in the disciplinary actions taken in an accident like this when the "official" cause is pilot error.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26287
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 6:09 am

Was just on the news here in Miami. It was TZ 647 incoming from Ft. Lauderdale.
a.
 
OPNLguy
Topic Author
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 6:10 am

>>>Was it safe to land a 757-300 at MDW on a 6500ft runway?

Of course it was, otherwise, the flight never would have been attempted by either the pilot or the dispatcher. The fact that this aircraft ended up slightly off the end (as opposed to ATA's other 757s successfully operating into MDW) doesn't support the retroactive conclusion that it wasn't "safe."

Before anyone comes to any definitive conclusions as to what did (or didn't) cause this incident, or what is (or isn't) safe, let's wait for some authoritative word from FAA/NTSB on what -really- happened. (It'll probably take a few days).
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
potomac
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 6:13 am

i dont think that any planes would be landing there if the runway wasnt suitable for safe landings - 6500 ft is certainly enough for a 753 to land on. the safety issue arises when you have things like excessive approach speed, mechanical problems, touchdown points far down the runway, etc. it will remain to be seen.
 
hammer
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 6:31 am

Nice of the news to say that it only holds 120 people...who gave that great source on info..
 
OPNLguy
Topic Author
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 6:34 am

>>>Nice of the news to say that it only holds 120 people...who gave that great source on info..

Heck, I'm surprised they got the airport correct...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Okie
Posts: 4177
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 6:39 am

Hard to say what happened at this point all the actual information we have is a 757 on a 20 meter too short of a runway.
But the first thing that will probably happen to the Captain is he will get to change his shorts.
 
rj777
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 6:46 am

Has it been confirmed as a 753?
 
ouboy79
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 6:50 am

I just love all the armchair QBs coming out "IS IT SAFE?" "HOW CAN THEY LAND THAT PLANE THERE?"...blah blah blah. 757s have been going through MDW for years, things happen. Smallers planes have gone off the end of longer runways. Of course it would be nice if MDW could acquire more land to expand the runways...but then we would probably be talking about even bigger ATA planes.  Smile
 
FLY777UAL
Posts: 4830
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 6:51 am

Rj777-

A picture is worth a thousand words. Look at the NBC link.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
Mexicana757
Posts: 2672
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 7:22 am

Good thing the airplane stopped on time, or it would have gone crashing into those concrete walls that are around MDW and on to the street.
Now I know why the flight path over my house was stoped all of sudden. I was outside in my backyard around 415pm and I saw that Chicago Express Saab 340s were still using the flight path ont heir way to MDW.
 
UAL Bagsmasher
Posts: 1839
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 12:52 pm

RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 8:00 am

Nice. Next time they might go 20 feet farther and slice the wings open on the concrete walls. Way to go Daley.
 
trnswrld
Posts: 1385
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 8:34 am

Wow can you imagine the looks on the pilots faces as that blast fence passed underneath them? :-0

They are very lucky it didnt go much furthur as that concrete wall wouldnt break as easily that fence did!! Smile/happy/getting dizzy

 
fpdonald
Posts: 413
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 8:35 am

Anyone know the tail number?
 
CcrlR
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 8:40 am

Yeah some smaller aircraft have done that in the past at MDW. In my Aviation Fundamentals class my instructor told us about this one time when they didn't take the pin out of the landing gear of one aircraft and it ended up dumping fuel and landing back again(it might have been a 757). One other time they didn't take the holders off the aeilrons off that keep them from flapping in the wind and they hit the gate(this was before they had the wall put up.) when they tried to take off. One time I saw a ATA 757-300 do a go-around cause they were too far down the runway but I don't se why the pilots didn't go around if they didn't have enough room.
"He was right, it is a screaming metal deathtrap!"-Cosmo (from the Fairly Oddparents)
 
JAFA
Posts: 740
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2003 1:31 pm

RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 9:37 am

Yes, that is definately a 757-300. Look at the distance between door 2 and the wing. On a -200 the wing is much closer to door 2.
 
meister808
Posts: 924
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 9:50 am

"I don't se(sic) why the pilots didn't go around if they didn't have enough room."

Well, we really don't know, but executing a go-around with 200,000 lbs. of airplane behind you doesn't necissarily guarantee a quick hop back into the air and through the pattern again. Things do happen fast, and if they were too far down the runway, then it may not have been safe to just cram the throttle and do-over. An aircraft skidding 100' off the end of the runway and stopping is better than an aircraft that is struggling to get up and then stalls 1/4 mi. off the end of the runway into a neighborhood.

-Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
redngold
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 10:08 am

I sent a little e-mail "nasty" to News5 telling them to check their facts against Boeing's website:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/757family/technical.html

That'll show them!

redngold
Up, up and away!
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 10:43 am

If the cause were later to be determined to have been pilot-related, (and let me re-iterate that -IF- ), they could get time off (a week or two) without pay. I personally doubt they'd lose their licenses or jobs...

Look what happened to the pilots of the WN flight from BUR. They got their a**es booted quicker than you can say "Blast Fence"
Puhdiddle
 
OPNLguy
Topic Author
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 10:47 am

Precisely -why- one hits a blast fence (or other other object like the localizer antenna) is the key, not just because something got hit.

The investigation will tell...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
b752fanatic
Posts: 892
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:29 am

A 767 could land in that runway also. Its the landing roll for gods sake, Auto Brakes, Reverse Thrust and Spoilers do the job.

Never seen Maideira in Portugal?
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:45 am

"A 767 could land in that runway also. Its the landing roll for gods sake, Auto Brakes, Reverse Thrust and Spoilers do the job.

Never seen Maideira in Portugal? "

The Atlanta Braves use 767-300s into MDW as charters.
 
AA717driver
Posts: 1502
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 8:27 am

RE: As Time Goes By: Many 767s Bound For Scrapping

Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:01 pm

6400 feet in a 757 is a no-brainer. Unless you get complacent and try to roll it on, that's plenty of room. As someone said, SNA is a LOT shorter. But you just have to accept a "positive" touchdown in the landing zone and don't screw around with the brakes or reverse.

The pilots will both be put on the beach until the investigation is complete--whatever the cause. Until then, no one can tell what happened. The first guesses are usually wrong.TC
FL450, M.85
 
bigphilnyc
Posts: 3874
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RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:31 pm

Ummm...any idea why this happened? I thinkt hat would be the first question, but no one seemed to address that.
Phil Derner Jr.
 
b752fanatic
Posts: 892
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 1:44 am

RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:40 pm

Let me try.

Im not a pilot.

I believe that the crew failed to touch down in the landing area, maybe touched down more than half of the RWY.

My observation from an 757 fan.

"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
 
jjbiv
Posts: 1253
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:58 am

RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:44 pm

Resist the temptation; let the investigation run its course. The only fact apparent at the moment is that none of us were there.

Thankfully no one was hurt.

joe
 
747-600X
Posts: 2554
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2000 3:11 am

RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:46 pm

You people are a little short-sighted here, the plane had 103 pax and 7 crew - 120 people. Whether that was "capacity" or what it actually had aboard is beside the point. It's phraseology, not wrong facts. Everyone's picking on NBC for that - I think you're trying to feel good about how much you know when the validity of the information is, for all intents and purposes, sound.
 
Mexicana757
Posts: 2672
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:21 pm

RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:47 pm

No one knows why the airplane skidded off the runway onto the blast fence. News reports say that ATA and MDW officials are investigating what happen.
Here is a link of the story
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/news/090803_ns_midwayplane.html

The NBC affiliate here has pictures of the of airplane at the end of the runway.. You can see the skid marks on the runway when the airplane was braking. Its a slide show,you can find the link inside the website.
http://www.nbc5.com/index.html
 
ckfred
Posts: 5188
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:49 pm

In the early 1990s, a ValuJet DC-9 ran off the end of one of the runways at MDW. I seem to recall that it had rained earlier that day. But the incident was ruled as pilot error.

I think that only the nose gear ran off the pavement, but, because of the rain, it sank into the mud, so it was difficult getting the plane back onto the pavement.

 
Mexicana757
Posts: 2672
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:21 pm

RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 1:02 pm

Ckred

I remember about the Valujet DC-9 that over ran the runway at MDW. And yes it was raining that day. One of the pilots that was involve in that incident was one of the pilots on Valujet 592 that crashed into the Everglades.
 
USAFHummer
Posts: 10261
Joined: Thu May 18, 2000 12:22 pm

RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Tue Sep 09, 2003 1:31 pm

"You people are a little short-sighted here, the plane had 103 pax and 7 crew - 120 people." -747-600X

Now I hate math, but I think I know enough about it to say that 103 + 7 = 110, not 120...

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
UAL Bagsmasher
Posts: 1839
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 12:52 pm

RE: LOT767-300ER

Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:27 am

You sure about them using 767-300s into MDW? Last I heard was nothing larger than the 757-300 was allowed into MDW.
 
flyingbronco05
Posts: 3484
Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 11:43 am

RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:39 am

ATA Flight 647 arrived from Fort Lauderdale at 1:50 at Midway.

UM, its only 12:30 right now in Chicago so i highly doubt it landed at 1:50.

"I take this about once a week and I knew he was coming in way too high, way too fast and never use the reverse thrust and slammed the brakes on. We could hear the brakes, like in a car when you just jam them," said Joe Thouvenell, passenger.

"I knew we were going to run off the runway, that's for sure. I thought for sure the guy was go pull up," said Jerome Cleland, passenger.


There is very little way to tell if a pilot is coming in high and fast.

I thought he was go to pull up?

Does he mean "going to pull up?"


FB05
Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: 757 Overrun At MDW

Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:30 am

1:50 yesterday, not today.

N

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