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fuelhog
Topic Author
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AA 717 Possible

Wed Sep 24, 2003 12:45 pm

Listening to all the discussions on the 717, I'm wondering if American might look at it for several reasons.First it has a large MD-80 fleet[commanilty],second it needs a viable replacement for it's F100 fleet too.Be a ramper at AA I can tell you that a lot of former F100 routes that are now MD-80's are going half-empty,were as a 100-seater would be the more economical sense with just the right number of seats.Third ,with all their options on Boeings,they could just convert some of the options to 717's.Just wondering if anybody else thinks this could be a realistic choice.
 
luv2fly
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Wed Sep 24, 2003 12:46 pm

They had them after the TWA merger and chose to get rid of them, not likely to be back anytime soon
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
flyabr
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Wed Sep 24, 2003 12:49 pm

would seem like an odd reversal in fleet planning if they did get some 717s since they cancelled twa's remaining order and sold the ones that were already in the twa fleet. but it does beg the question as to what aircraft they are gonna use in the 100 seat markets...
 
Shenzhen
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:07 pm

American had a unique opportunity to do what they wanted with TWAs fleet, due to the bankruptcy. They could simply cancel contracts and return the airplane to the leasor. So, after 9/11 they simply cancelled the leases and returned the airplanes, instead of parking an equal amount in the desert.

Could they purchase in the future? If the airplane fits their needs, sure. From what I remember, they said they liked their experience with 717.
 
Guest

RE: AA 717 Possible

Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:08 pm

would seem like an odd reversal in fleet planning if they did get some 717s since they cancelled twa's remaining order and sold the ones that were already in the twa fleet.

Not really - it would've cost millions to convert TW's new B717 into AA standards ... with MRTC, the B717 was too small ... not so without MRTC...
 
ckfred
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:10 pm

A friend of mine is an AA pilot. The 717 will not make a comeback, because AA will start retiring MD-80s, probably after AA has some profitable quarters. The first MD-80s were delivered in 1983. Even thought there is commonality with the MD-80, the commonality disappears as the MD-80 fleet is retired.

The original plan was to replace the MD-80s with 737-700s and the Fokkers with 737-600s. Although AA has a contract with Boeing to buy several hundred more airplanes over the next 15 years, I've heard that the 737-600 is far costlier to fly than the -700 and -800, on a per-seat basis. So, AA may not order any 737-600s, although there would be tremendous cost savings in terms of maintenance, training, and reserve crews. Instead of 350+ MD-80s, 75 737-800s, and 75 F100s, having a fleet of 500+ 737NGs would simplify things a lot.

The new rumor is that AA might look at the new Embrears, since Eagle is very happy with the 135/140/145 models. Although this brings another type of aircraft into the fleet (AA has eliminated TWA's 717s and DC-9s, Reno's MD-90s, and its own 727s, DC-10s, MD-11s, and soon, the F100s), there is enough commonality with the other Embrears that training and maintenance costs will be reasonable.
 
Korg747
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:16 pm

Since the 737-600 is heavy. wouldn't you all think the proposed 717-300X is perfect for AA?
Please excuse my English!
 
Guest

RE: AA 717 Possible

Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:17 pm

...because AA will start retiring MD-80s, probably after AA has some profitable quarters.

I don't think so. AA has 359 MD-80 (including about 20 that are stored) with an average age of about 11 years. It'll take many, many years to retire these aircraft. To put it in perspective, they have 271 F100 / B737 / B757 and more than 60 of those aircraft (TW B757 and F100) are scheduled for retirement.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:20 pm

Ckfred,

I really openly wonder will AA seriously consider the Embraer 170/190 series. These planes do NOT have commonality with the ERJ-135/145's flown by American Eagle, and AA would rather not spend a fortune for supporting this new Embraer model.

A more likely choice is that AA will buy a large number of 737-700's to replace the MD-80 series planes as they are phased out. AA and WN could also end up pressuring Boeing into building a lower-MTOW version of the 737-600, which may result in both AA and WN buying the lower-weight 736.
 
AIR757200
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:28 pm


According to AMR's Form-10K, the only aircraft slated for retirement are:

F100-2004
ATR42-2008
Saab340-2007...

Also, the average age of AA's MD-80 is 14 years.
 
brons2
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:28 pm

There's no way AA will retire enough MD-80 to be thinking seriously about a 73G purchase/option conversion. The newest MD-80 they have was delivered in 2000!

Yeah, let's retire that.

I'm sure eventually they will start parking some of the older ones but we are not at that point yet.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
Guest

RE: AA 717 Possible

Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:32 pm

Also, the average age of AA's MD-80 is 14 years.

Does that include TW's? Almost all former TW birds are on the TW certificate.
 
swaluvfa
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:41 pm

Lets not forget that AirTran is now proudly flying some of those TWA 717s!!  Smile
 
ckfred
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:45 pm

I'm only telling what the skuddlebutt is among AA pilots, and the rumor is that AA has interest in the 170/190. That doesn't mean that AA is ready to sign a contract.

But considering that Boeing has sold fewer than 100 737-600s, if AA dangled an order for 75+ planes with the caveat that the costs on a per-seat basis had to be reduced, I bet Boeing would get the engineers to work. It could be that AA may look at the 170/190 for purposes of discussions with Boeing.

Although the MD-80 is, on average, 11 years old, AA took its first delivery in 1983. The MD-80 didn't start flying longer-haul flights (DFW and ORD to the West Coast) until the early 1990s, so the older planes probably have a lot of cycles on them. I don't think AA is going to keep the MD-80s around as long as NW has kept its DC-9s. My guess is that by 2005, AA will probably start looking into getting production slots for 737-700s, provided that AA is making some money.

 
flyabr
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Wed Sep 24, 2003 2:07 pm

industrialpate,

what is MRTC...?
 
Customs172
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Wed Sep 24, 2003 2:14 pm

A little off the subject, but does anyone know what AA might replane the Saab 340 with?
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Wed Sep 24, 2003 2:26 pm

**The new rumor is that AA might look at the new Embrears, since Eagle is very happy with the 135/140/145 models. Although this brings another type of aircraft into the fleet (AA has eliminated TWA's 717s and DC-9s, Reno's MD-90s, and its own 727s, DC-10s, MD-11s, and soon, the F100s), there is enough commonality with the other Embrears that training and maintenance costs will be reasonable.

Don't forget that Eagle has the CRJ-700 too. It would be pointless then for them to bring in an ERJ-170.

Also there is some kind of scope clause that is limiting Eagle to a specific amount of jets for each type so anymore CRJs or ERJs might be out of the question.

When AA took over TWA, they of course were not in the financial situation that they are in now. The TWA 717s were given back due to the high finance charges with TWA having terrible credit.

I think if they weren't so costly, AA would have kept them and used them to replace the F-100. Who knows, if AA pulls out of this bankruptcy, and return to profit- they might order the 717- they want something to replace the F-100. But remember also, a lot of the MD-80s are older than the F-100. I believe AA didnt take delivery of the F-100 until 1989-90. Didn't AA have the MD-80 in its fleet since the mid 80s?
 
aviatortj
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Wed Sep 24, 2003 2:31 pm

MRTC
More Room Throughout Coach

~TJ  Smile
 
tekelberry
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Wed Sep 24, 2003 2:44 pm

AA does NOT want a replacement for the F100 at this time. The whole point of retiring them is to follow through with their turnaround plan. Ordering replacements would be counterproductive.
 
Fleet Service
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:54 pm

Actually,part of the reason for the accelerated retirement of the F100 is due to an expensive modification to the engine called for in an AD by the FAA.

Cost per engine is $1.5 million dollars,with a fleet of 60+ at the time the AD was released, it was a relatively easy decision to make to accelerate the F100 retirement.

Lacking the AD the retirement would not be as rapid as it is.

I happen to think the 717 would have been the perfect replacement for the F100 in our fleet, but that opinion is not shared by the people who make the decisions here.

I've sent Walter Aue (Capacity Planning VP) several emails regarding the 717 and where it can fit within the network,but his responses indicate there is no desire at this time to add an additional fleet type and related expenses.

When I pointed out that we had the type,infrastructure and other support already in place but chose to cast it aside he basically told me that wasn't relevant.

Ahh well...
Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
 
gigneil
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:42 pm

Don't forget that Eagle has the CRJ-700 too. It would be pointless then for them to bring in an ERJ-170.

The CRJ-700 and the EMB 170 are almost not even competing planes in terms of the passenger experience.

The EMB 170 has a much larger fuselage and much more passenger space. If AA were to choose it or the EMB 190/195, which I don't think they'll do right now, it'd be for a mainline product - not for an Eagle product.

N
 
AIR757200
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:06 pm

Does that include TW's? Almost all former TW birds are on the TW certificate.

IndustrialPate,

Yes, that does include the TWA aircraft. Of the 362 "total" aircraft (owned, capital leased, and operating leased).. 103 are TWA.; as mentioned earlier: 28 MD-80s are in temporary storage.

Give or take a few numbers because the Form 10-K was printed some time ago. (And I just got my copy last week).
 
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American 767
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Thu Sep 25, 2003 1:05 am

Boeing is proposing a B717-300X, it would be good for American Airlines. It's a stretch version of the current 717-200 but probably equiped with extra fuel capacity. I'm not sure about fuel capacity but if they call it X it means the project may have extra range compared to the baseline version, the 717-200. That would be the perfect Super 80 replacement, I'm convinced.
I think American should disregard the 737-600/700 (the 800 is the 727 replacement) and consider instead the 717-300X to replace the MD-80. I'm not saying they should now cancel all the options they hold on NG737's but they should consider ordering the 717-300X instead of the 737-700. They won't convert their NG 737 options to 717-300X options because that one is not built, not yet, but if it ever comes off the drawing board then American should look at it seriously. If at least one airline places a firm order then American should cancel all the remaining NG737's they hold on option and convert those to 717-300X, with a slight amount to firm order. That's how American started with the Super 80 twenty years ago, they started with 20 of those as trial. More would eventually be converted to firm orders when they decide to pruchase new aircraft from Boeing. A 717-323X in American Airlines livery and with the MRTC interior design would look awesome! Now if Boeing proposes a lighter version of the 737-600 cheaper to operate, then it's another story. They'll pick whichever is cheaper and more efficient to operate.

Ben Soriano
Brussels Belgium
Ben Soriano
 
Midway2AirTran
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Thu Sep 25, 2003 2:16 am

They could buy more for AirTran to take over Big grin
"Life is short, but your delay in ATL is not."
 
Guest

RE: AA 717 Possible

Thu Sep 25, 2003 6:02 am

A little off the subject, but does anyone know what AA might replane the Saab 340 with?

It's called an ERJ-135 or an ERJ 140 and in some markets an ERJ-145.
 
Fleet Service
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Thu Sep 25, 2003 6:59 am

Regarding former TWA aircraft, the number that has not undergone conversion is below 100 and dropping.

There are quite a few 80's and 57's coming through LGA now that retain a TWA fleet number ( 4XB, 5WS,Ect) but have been converted and transfered to the AA certificate.

And don't think the black nose is an accurate indicator of where the aircraft came from anymore, 4XY has a black nose on it and there are quite a few nAAtive ships with solid gray noses out there.

Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
 
lgbguy
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Thu Sep 25, 2003 7:17 am

THE 717-300 WILL HAVE THE SAME RANGE AS THE -200, UNFORTUNATELY NO INCREASE AT Macedonian Airlines (Greece)">IN RANGE OR EXTRA FUEL CAPACITY IS PLANNED AT THIS TIME.

MIKE
LGBGUY
 
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jetjack74
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Thu Sep 25, 2003 7:24 am

As far as the aircraft goes. It is anyones guess of what might happen. The 717 was being written off by many, that is until Air Tran got in the game and put in a huge oder for this aircraft. The DC9/MD80/717 airframe could potentially be the next great success story. If the 300 series goes ahead, the probability of larger orders for this aircraft will increase greatly. The 717 will then have commonality offering different fuselage sizes which then provides flexibility in serving markets as well as crew training cost go down. The only thing this airplane needs for a real shot in the arm is range capability. Like the 737, orders were slow in the beginning. Now it is not out the realm of possibility that AMR might buy some in the future. After all in 1978, TWA sold off all of the DC9-10's that they ordered in the 1965. Only to re-acquire an entire fleet form the Ozark merger. AMR was also a later customer for the 757. It would make sense for American to buy this aircraft, it already has powerplant tech's trained on R/R engines. The MD80 is oversized fleet. The TWA MD80's and 757's are black sheeps. They are all-together different than the original AMR aircraft and require specific crews to fly them. The 757's could definately be utilized better at a different carrier such as NW. They would match the 5500 series 757's. Anything is possible concerning aircraft orders, once the economy improves.
Made from jets!
 
738_Driver
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Thu Sep 25, 2003 8:06 am

I've sent Walter Aue (Capacity Planning VP) several emails regarding the 717 and where it can fit within the network,but his responses indicate there is no desire at this time to add an additional fleet type and related expenses.

When I pointed out that we had the type, infrastructure and other support already in place but chose to cast it aside he basically told me that wasn't relevant.

Ahh well...


Ah, another arm-chair quarterback... I would think that Mr. Aue would know the cost of adding another fleet type into AA's network a little better than you would and that promted his casting aside your comment as irrelevant.
 
tommy767
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Thu Sep 25, 2003 10:12 am

When AA got rid of the former TWA 717's I was disappointed. I really don't think they are going to come back  Sad
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
FedExDC-10
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Thu Sep 25, 2003 10:42 am

"Ah, another arm-chair quarterback... I would think that Mr. Aue would know the cost of adding another fleet type into AA's network a little better than you would and that promted his casting aside your comment as irrelevant."

LOL. Kinda harsh, don't you think? What's wrong with the guy voicing his opinion to his company? After all, this is America and he does have that right. Besides, I tend to trust the guys on the front lines versus the suits behind the desks in fancy offices who are making off with millions.

FedExDC-10

[Edited 2003-09-25 03:43:44]
 
CitationX
Posts: 122
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Thu Sep 25, 2003 12:41 pm

I know this is taking a slight detour, but if American really did not need St. Louis as a hub, and TWA's configurations of their MD-80, 757, 767 and 717 fleets were "incompatible" with AA's fleet standards, then why did American buy out TWA?

From my vantage point, the only thing AA accomplished by buying out TW was to eliminate a pesky competitor. In the end-game, the TW "merger" is turning out to be a "zero-sum gain" for the expansion of AA, much in the manner of AA's needless buy outs of AirCal and Reno Air.
 
Okie
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Thu Sep 25, 2003 12:45 pm

They bought an airline for the cost of one airplane.
 
elwood64151
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Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2002 10:22 am

RE: AA 717 Possible

Thu Sep 25, 2003 1:16 pm

FedExDC-10:

Normally, and in this case, I agree with you. However, one never knows the level of intelligence of the people one is talking about. I believe I had better ideas than the management at Vanguard prior to Jeff Potter (and even some better ideas than the crew following his appointment).

However, I know that I have come up with some real boners, and that the average ramper at NJ, while not stupid, did not have business sense.

CitationX:

Actually, that's pretty much what it was. Oh, they got the added benefit of the STL hub to relieve traffic at ORD and DFW, but after 9/11, it was no longer necessary. So they've dumped it, too.

AA has a long proud history of destroying competitors in any way it can get away with it. Most of them, like the TW merger, were legal, so I'm not complaining. Besides, TW would have gone under if it hadn't been bought out, so some people got to keep their jobs, at least.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
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yyz717
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Thu Sep 25, 2003 1:22 pm

The 717's inherited from TW were subject to high lease rates due to TW's poor credit & fiscal state, indeed much higher than that which AA could have negotiated lease rates. Strike 1.

The 30-strong 717 fleet conflicted with the larger 75-strong F100 fleet. In the interests of fleet commonality, the smaller fleet had to go. Strike 2.

Fast forward to 2003......AA is now retiring the F100's and finds itself with the MD-80 (many of which are 20 years old) as the soon-to-be-smallest mainline fleet type. The 712/713 could now once again find favour with AA as an early MD-80 replacement and junior MD-80 partner.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
738_Driver
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2001 5:17 pm

RE: AA 717 Possible

Fri Sep 26, 2003 12:19 am

FedExDc10

LOL. Kinda harsh, don't you think? What's wrong with the guy voicing his opinion to his company? After all, this is America and he does have that right. Besides, I tend to trust the guys on the front lines versus the suits behind the desks in fancy offices who are making off with millions.

I understand your point about trustworthyness of people in ivory towers. I was only trying to point out that it is too easy for someone on the front lines to voice their opinion about something that they have no information, data, or knowledge about. Then, when they get an unfavorable response about that opinion from a person that is more knowledgable about the subject, they chalk it up to being cast aside and not worthy of being listened to.

BTW, just as an FYI... Just because someone is a V.P. at HDQ, that does NOT mean that they sit in fancy offices and make millions. In fact, I would bet the farm that this particular VP doesn't even come close to making anything like that.
 
Fleet Service
Posts: 473
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2000 11:58 am

RE: AA 717 Possible

Fri Sep 26, 2003 7:39 am

From my view on the front line I see mainline F100 flights being replaced with Eagle RJ's.

I see our network being degraded by replacing mainline aircraft on longer segments.I mean really, STL-LGA/EWR on a RJ? Along with a host of other markets?

I also see a capacity gap between the RJ and the Super 80,you either put 35/50 seats on the route or you jump to 120+ on the 80,where is the middle ground? The "Bridge" so to speak?

Mr.Aue didn't summarily "Dismiss" my emails, he did say that the company was "Aware of the 100 seat issue, but there was no elegant solution at this time"

I pointed out we had the "Elegant Solution" already in place but chose to discard it.

The fact that I had an ongoing email discussion for two weeks proves that my theories weren't dismissed out of hand simply because I work the line.


Don't make assumptions about people based on a screen name or what they do for a living.I've worked in this business for 10 years now,five of which were in a supervisory position at another airline.I am not just a brainless ramper.


Lastly, with regard to lease rates, AA was able to lower the majority of the lease rates on the TWA aircraft due to the strength of it's credit ratings at the time.Considering the anemic sales of the 717 one would have to think Boeing would be more than willing to lower the lease rates on the type in order to keep the 30 units in service with a "Mainline" carrier like AA as well as the options on the other 20.




Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
 
AA777MIA
Posts: 671
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 10:30 am

RE: AA 717 Possible

Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:41 am

AA bought TWA to "one up" the United USAirways deal, well unfortunately for AA, that deal fell thru and they go shafted... It is called greed!
 
elwood64151
Posts: 2410
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2002 10:22 am

RE: AA 717 Possible

Fri Sep 26, 2003 11:53 am

AA777MIA:

It wasn't "one-upsmanship" or "keeping up with the Joneses". It was killing off competition, pure and simple.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
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yyz717
Posts: 15775
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RE: AA 717 Possible

Fri Sep 26, 2003 11:57 am

Ironically, AA has now shrunk back to its size before the TW purchase. Had AA not bought TW, TW would definitely have dies anyway in the aftermath of 9-11.....it was barely alive to beign with.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
atrude777
Posts: 4412
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: AA 717 Possible

Fri Sep 26, 2003 12:23 pm

AA had there chance, they got rid of them, and now they lost it. Besides as repeatdely said AirTran got the bulck of the ex-TWA 717. SO, AA no longer owns them now. I wouldn't be surpised if they order what JB and US Airways ordered, forgot the aircraft name, someone please help me.


Alex.
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
cloudy
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

RE: AA 717 Possible

Fri Sep 26, 2003 1:57 pm

Ironically, AA has now shrunk back to its size before the TW purchase. Had AA not bought TW, TW would definitely have dies anyway in the aftermath of 9-11.....it was barely alive to beign with.
-----

TWA did die, technically. It went chapter 7 and American bought most of the assets and hired most of the former employees. If American never bought the assets, they simply would have been spread around to the lowest bidders and TWA would still have died.

In short.... There was no chance of TWA surviving from its bankruptcy, this was a Chapter 7 - the "bye bye" kind of bankruptcy.

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