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mariner
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Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

Frontier's Red-eyes

Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:26 am

In the winter schedule, Frontier is starting daily red-eye service to their four Florida cities (Fort Lauderdale, Fort Myers, Tampa and Orlando) as well as Baltimore/Washington.

All the flights leave Denver just before midnight, and arrive early a.m.

A couple of thoughts: I guess they won't have gate space problems for these flights at DIA.

Obviously, they think there is the demand, but I'm slightly surprised that Fort Myers, for example, is daily.

It'll sure boost the aircraft utilization rates.

Given this ramp-up, I'm puzzled that there is no red eye to New York/La Guardia. Are there slot issues there?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
andersjt
Posts: 367
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:50 am

RE: Frontier's Red-eyes

Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:21 am

Mariner - my guess it is because of slot restrictions. Transcon red-eyes only go to EWR and JFK, and UA's last flight from Denver is at 6:20.
Oh how I long for the day when the skies were truly Friendly!
 
scottysair
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RE: Frontier's Red-eyes

Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:21 am

Can you please send me with their link? I need exactly what flight # was flew out of DEN-FLL, please? I still thinking about of those flight is doing well with nonstop out of FLL. Talk ya later!
 
CALMSP
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RE: Frontier's Red-eyes

Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:55 am

there is a curfew at LGA, not sure what time it expires in the morning though.
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier's Red-eyes

Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:10 am

Anders/CALMSP:

Slot restrictions and/or curfew would be guess, too. But it may be something to do with beyond perimeter.

Frontier flights are exempt, grandfathered, from the perimeter rule at LGA. This may also apply to UAL.

I've no idea if that means the slots they had, or if they can get new slots.

Scotty:

The best way to do that is to go to the Frontier website. Under "travel" there is a subheading "timetable" which is a .pdf document. I don't know how to link to a .pdf, sorry.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Benjamin
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RE: Frontier's Red-eyes

Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:14 am

Frontier flights are exempt, grandfathered, from the perimeter rule at LGA. This may also apply to UAL.

I have asked many times: What is the perimeter rule at LGA? The is the purpose of it? If UA is exempt, why don't they fly from the west coast to LGA?? Can some PLEASE answer??
 
DIA
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RE: Frontier's Red-eyes

Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:16 am

Interesting indeed. As you mentioned, Mariner, I am surprised as well with a daily Fort Myers from Denver. . .should be interesting to see if this one stays around. Now, ATA from MDW to Ft. Myers. . .always booked. . .so we'll see.

Cheers
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
ssides
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RE: Frontier's Red-eyes

Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:22 am

Benjamin --

The perimeter rule at LGA means that airlines cannot offer non-stop flights to points beyond a certain distance. I am much more familiar with the perimeter rule at DCA, which is quite similar.

At DCA, the general rule is that airlines cannot fly to any points beyond 1,250 miles. Originally, the limit was to be 1,000 miles, but some influential Texas congressmen got it changed to 1,250 so DFW and IAH would be included. The purpose of these restrictions was to reduce traffic and keep widebodies out. Recently, however, some exceptions were awarded to Frontier, America West, and other airlines to fly to places like LAS, LAX and SEA.

I am not sure exactly how the perimeter rule at LGA works, but I've heard it is very much the same. I think exceptions have been granted, but I'm not sure how many. I don't know what the guy who mentioned "grandfathering" is talking about, to my knowledge it doesn't exist. If it did, I think there would be many more west coast flights to LGA, as you mentioned.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: Frontier's Red-eyes

Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:40 am

The perimeter at LGA is 1500 miles...
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier's Red-eyes

Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:57 am

Frontier's flights to Denver from LGA are exempt from the perimeter rule, because they were already in existence at the time that particular perimeter was decided.

Thus they are "grandfathered" in. If you're not familiar with the term, I suggest a Google search.

I believe, but I'm not sure, that UAL has a similar exemption, but it's only on flights to Denver.

Thus, there can't be coast to coast transcons out of LGA.

The intention was to stop LGA (or DCA) from becoming a competitor to the bigger airports - JFK/EWR in NY and IAD in Washington.

LGA and DCA were to be "regional" and the others were to be the big boys. It's not unlike Dallas Love Field versus DFW.

There were also considerations of noise and overcrowding.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
SuperDash
Posts: 357
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 1:52 pm

RE: Frontier's Red-eyes

Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:32 am

I believe DEN is grandfathered or simply put, included inside the perimeter. It is not airline specific. LGA has no beyond perimeter rule on Saturdays.
 
ATA767
Posts: 428
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RE: Frontier's Red-eyes

Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:01 pm

ATA will fly LGA-SFO on Saturdays starting on January 24th, 2004
 
copaair737
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RE: Frontier's Red-eyes

Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:05 pm

Denver is indeed inside the LGA perimeter. There is service on F9 and UA, however, it is at the edge of the barrier. SFO-LGA on TZ, starting in January, and the US Airways LGA-LAS service are exempt from the rule because the rule is not in effect on saturdays.
Livin' on Reds, Vitamin C, and Cocaine
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Frontier's Red-eyes

Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:44 pm

These make senses, you get more aircraft use, as if they sit on the ground you make NO money. Also most likely will the crews fly the plane back to DIA, if so the crews are happy they get to go home. F9 could offer some special fares or bonus to take these flights. As a shareholder I am happy to see this.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier's Red-eyes

Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:44 pm

Copaair:

Sorry, but Denver is outside the perimeter - which is 1000 miles. DEN to LGA is 1600 miles.

Don't take my word for it, or even Frontier's - let's go to a third party, America West:

http://beta.americawest.com/aboutawa/companyprofile/aa_cmh_qa.htm#7

It's about half way down, but there's a link at the top: "Why is AWA leaving Fort Myers and La Guardia."

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: Frontier's Red-eyes

Fri Oct 17, 2003 4:10 am

That's a typo...it should have been 1500 miles...you can't tell me LGA-DFW and LGA-IAH is less than 1000 miles...heck, some of the South Florida routes re more than 1000 miles...BTW, with respect to O&D traffic, I found it interesting that I found on the DOT's website that LGA has the 7th-most O&D traffic in the United States, more than both EWR and JFK...
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
VectorVictor
Posts: 384
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:31 am

RE: Frontier's Red-eyes

Fri Oct 17, 2003 4:27 am

For those with an interest in history...

American flew nonstop El Paso - LGA in the late 60s early 70s w/727. The return to ELP was 1-stop, not nonstop. 1900 miles

Braniff, for a short time in 1978-1979, operated roundtrip nonstop service between LGA - San Antonio. 1586 miles

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