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SunValley
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Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:47 am

Whats everyones feeling on this? Should parents be required to buy a seat with a child seat attached for infants?, instead of the lap passenger means most airlines now use?
 
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usair330
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RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:02 am

My opinion is that babies should be placed in car seats when on a flight. If it's mandatory on the ground, it should be mandatory in the air as well. If moderate turbulence hit an aircraft out of no where and lets say the parent didn't have a tight grip on the baby, the baby can be injured or even killed. Airlines should provide some type of child seat for the pax. with babies. And the person should only have to pay half price or maybe 75%. It'll be safer for babies as well as help the airlines with profits maybe.
 
cancidas
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RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:04 am

thats how i came to the us, on a il-62. i think the child seat is a really good idea. not from a revenue standpoint but from a safety standpoint. airlines might consider offereing discount tix to infants.
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:25 am

And the person should only have to pay half price or maybe 75%

Many U.S. carriers already offer 50% "infant seat" discounts for passengers purchasing a seat for their infant (under age 2).
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
jeffrey1970
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RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:29 am

From what I hear the FAA might make it mandatory that babies sit in safety seats during flights. I think it makes sense for safety reasons.

God bless through Jesus,

Jeff
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
goingboeing
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RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:30 am

Yeah...but half price is too much to pay...that is until junior is flung out of mama's arms in a bout with some turbulence. Then the airline should pay out millions in "pain and suffering" to the person who was too cheap to buy a seat for their kid.
 
jmets18
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RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:40 am

put the damn kid in their own seat. if i've got to pay a full fare to listen to them cry, the parents should have to pay a full fare to let them to ride!
 
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Spacepope
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RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:05 am

I dunno. My girlfriend is pretty slim... I'd fly a lot more if she could fly free on my lap!

T.J.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
cvervais
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RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:35 am

My opinion MIGHT change when I have kids but I doubt it.

Kidlets should be restrained in their own seat using their regular car seat. I feel this way due to safety. A ride in a plane is a pretty violent one considering. Unexpected turbulence, sudden acceleration, and sudden deceleration are all more forces than you encounter on your typical car ride.

In general people do not let young kids ride in their laps on car rides. Why should it be any different for plane rides?

I was mildly appalled this summer when my fiancee and I were traveling from SFO to PHL on a red eye flight and a mom was holding her three year old daughter in her lap and allowing the child to stand on her lap bouncing up and down during the takeoff roll.

Again, I have no kids of my own yet and it's always possible my opinion might change when I have one. However, right now I see myself purchasing a separate seat for the toddler and restraining him/her in it during the flight.

I also imagine it would be less traumatic on the kid by being in a seat they're familiar and comftorable with.

My mind is all ways open.
 
Guest

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:45 pm

Amen jmets18... I fully agree if the parents wanna bring the little bastard they should have to pay full price like the rest of us. The kid is going to make us all miserable so maybe having to pay for a whole ticket will discourage bringing the little screaming poop factory.
 
ScottB
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RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:07 pm

Actually, the FAA already considered requiring the purchase of a seat for infants, rather than the current regulation allowing infants under two years to be carried in an adult's arms; their reasoning was that requiring the purchase of an additional seat (even a discounted one) would cause a significant number of families with infants to choose to travel by automobile, in which case there is a far higher likelihood of the infant being injured or killed in an accident than being injured or killed in heavy turbulence or a plane crash.

Some people simply would be unable to afford the cost of the additional ticket and some would be unwilling to pay it.
 
akelley728
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RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:31 pm

You know, I love seeing the opinions of those who have no idea what it's like to have children.

I have two children - one almost five and another 16 months. Both have taken a number of air trips in their short lives.

My opinion? Yes, children under two should have their own seats. But ScottB was right, research was done by the FAA showing that parents of kids who are forced to pay for a seat would likely not travel due to the additional cost.

Do any of you out there who don't have children realize the financial struggle that us parents go through to raise children? When you spend major $$$ on diapers, formula, baby food, toys, etc., not having to spend another $200 for an airline seat is a relief.

Now in my own situation, with my first child I never paid for a seat. Did I feel guilty? Yes! Could I afford it? NO!!!! However, with some reasearch and being an experienced traveler I made sure we got on flights that had plenty of open seating - 9 out of 10 times my child had a seat. Now that I have two children, fortunately my financial situation is a bit better. On our last trip I paid for my second child (who was 11 months at a time) for a seat. We're going somewhere again in a couple of months, and I'm paying for the seat again.

I think it's insane to think that parents WANT to have their child sit in their lap, believe me... you ask most parents and they would want their kid in their own seat.

I think the solution is simple. The FAA should require that kids have a seat, and they should also require that those seats be free or almost free.
 
cloudy
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RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Thu Oct 16, 2003 2:15 pm

Actually, the FAA already considered requiring the purchase of a seat for infants, rather than the current regulation allowing infants under two years to be carried in an adult's arms; their reasoning was that requiring the purchase of an additional seat (even a discounted one) would cause a significant number of families with infants to choose to travel by automobile, in which case there is a far higher likelihood of the infant being injured or killed in an accident than being injured or killed in heavy turbulence or a plane crash.
----

This was a rare moment of sanity in government. Regulators often look more for the appearance of safety for public relations purposes than for actual safety. In order to find out what policy is actually going to do the most good, you have to research how the policy itself is going to influence people's choices. It is tempting to have the knee-jerk reaction that more regulation is always safest. That is not the case always, or even most of the time.

-----
think the solution is simple. The FAA should require that kids have a seat, and they should also require that those seats be free or almost free.
------
As always, the "simple" solution is one that imposes more and more government burdens upon the airlines while makng sure the true costs are kept well hidden from the public. That is why we have such high taxes on this industry, and why the worst run parts of it (Air Traffic Control, Airports, and Security) are run by government. This is why we have so many innane and obsolete regulations. This problem may sound simple to you but these kind of "simple solutions" are one of the main reasons the industry is in the state it it now in.

If we had a healthy airline industry with reasonable taxes and less government bungling like that called for by people like the last poster, more people would fly and fewer people would drive - especially families. Lives and jobs would be saved. But this is a democracy, and if it is more important to let ignorant voters feel good, so be it.

But I sympathize with AKelley's view on children. If a child irritates you, consider that you were one once. Though I am sure you never made any big noises or a big fuss in public. I think one of the reason that God gave us children was to force all of us (not just parrents) to make adjustments for others and bear with them more than we otherwise would. Also - to most of us, flight is routine. To most children, flight is a rare and magical experience. If ya let that magic rub off on you a bit when you sit near them, my guess is the noise might not seem so bad  Smile.



 
virgin744
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RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:16 pm

Startvalve,
You have obviously had bad experiences with babies on flights but I dont think its fair that parents should pay full price for a baby just to sit on their lap! I, like AKelley728, have 2 kids of similar age and I have always had to pay for them to sit on our laps, on a few ocassions we've paid hundreds of dollars for them when they have flown long haul just to sit on our lap in the past. We are going on a trip next week and I paid £13 for our youngest who is 14mnths so on short haul, yes its cheap but we still pay the taxes on top and pay a huge amount for them on longhaul.

Wait until some of you have kids and see what its like, if you're not rich you'll feel the pinch when it comes to trips and I can tell you my chidren have never screamed and cried on a flight too!

When you go on a bus journey do you expect the children to pay full fair? I dont see the rationale about making kids fairs full on a plane. the most i have ever seen them do extra is put our formula milk in hot water, we bring their food and feed them, so I cant see (from an economical sense) what extra burden kids are? Okay so some of them cry, big deal!! I have had to put up with 'amply proportioned' people sitting next to me on 10hr flights, people who smell, and people who dont stop talking to me when I'm trying my hardest not to listen, but I dont expect them to pay more or less.

Maybe its time to startup an airline aimed at children travellers ey?

virgin744
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:26 pm

Normally, children under 2 years pay a 10% fare and do not occupy their own seat, nor do they qualify for a luggage allowance. Children between the ages of 2 and 12 normally pay a 50% child fare, occupying their own seat and with an 50% luggage entitlement (1 piece or 10kg in Y). Most international airlines offer some kind of infant bassinet (usually attached to a forward bulkhead) for pax with infants, but the child has to be strapped into the accompanying adults lap for take off / landing and turbulence.

For passengers who want their infants to travel in their own car seat, most airlines will accept this, but subject to the availability of an empty seat on the aircraft - to get round this, the best thing is to buy a 50% child fare ticket, that way the sprog gets his/her own seat for you to park the car seat on. There seems to be a rule (informal or not) that Infant Car Seats go in the window seat of the aircraft.

This proposed rule is in effect making it mandatory for people with kids in car seats to pay the 50% child fare, so that the airline doesn't feel obliged to provide an empty seat for a child on a 10% ticket. Doesn't seem such a bad idea to me - the kid is more comfortable and much safer, parents don't have the hassle of trying to keep their offspring under control in a lap-strap. Having travelled on flights with infants, those in their own car seats seem much happier, and seem to do what comes naturally when plonked in the car seat - go to sleep.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
jmets18
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RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:55 pm

Good call Startvalve...you and I seem to be on the same page. However, Akelly728, feels that getting a break on a $200 airfare because she has to change diapers and feed her child baby food is something that is warranted. I'll tell ya what. I spent $150,000 on my college education. So should I get a free plane ticket too? Give me a freakin break. If you don't want to pay for a plane ticket, don't fly overseas, and drive everywhere. I'm not saying I don't like kids, or anything like that. And no, I'm not a parent. I'm 23 years old. But I'll say this much. Next time you're on a flight with your kid, and your sitting next to someone other than your husband, or a member of your family, think how much they appreciate sitting next to 3 people on an aircraft configured 3X3 instead of 2. Getting a free ride is wrong. Airlines apparently don't realize that they're inconveniencing other passengers by not forcing parents to purchase tickets for their babies. Buy the tickets...END OF STORY!
 
767Lover
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RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:12 pm

Point of clarification about laps:

The reason you see babies on laps (at least during takeoff, taxi and landing) is because FAA regulations require that infants must be held on the lap during takeoff, taxi and landing....they cannot be in a car seat during this time, even if the parent wants them in a car seat.

THEN, a situation ensues where the infant starts crying during takeoff, so the parent then has to keep them in the lap to calm them down, etc.

This came up on a flight I took recently where the lady next to me actually WANTED to have her baby strapped into the car seat but the FAs told her they couldn't allow it.

So if you see parents doing this it's not necessarily because they are cheap/inconsiderate or whatever.

And to add my two cents: the fact that parents face a heavy financial burden when they have kids should not be a factor in setting fares. Should someone burdened with the cost of caring for an elderly parent get the same break? (Senior citizen discounts are typically only 10%.)
 
jeffrito
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RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:23 pm

In spite of it all, which of the following people is least likely to afford some pleasant human interaction:

(1) Infant
(2) Child
(3) Overweight person
(4) Person with BO
(5) Drunk person
(6) Democrat
(7) Republican
(8) Born-again Christian
(9) 23 yr old who spent $150,000 on a college education

?

[Edited 2003-10-16 15:24:24]
 
akelley728
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RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:41 am

Jmets18:

First off, I'm the father of my two kids. (You obviously didn't look at my profile before posting.) Why is it when someone posts something positive about kids it's automatically assumed they're a woman? Just proves your ignorance.

I never said that not having to pay airfare for my child was 'warranted'. As ScottB and Cloudy said, it's the FAA, who after doing extensive research with the NTSB and other government agencies, has said that it's better and safer for a infant to travel by air (even in the lap of a parent). The statistics don't lie.

Is it a relief for me not to have worried about paying for seat for my child? Yes! I agree with what Virgin744 said, most other forms of transportation like buses or trains offer free or significant discounts (like 10% of standard adult fare) to those passengers under two years of age.

Do I give a damn that you paid $150,000 for your college? How dare you compare the amount of money you spent on college or anything to a child, a human being!

I've ranted enough. One of these days may God bless you with a child. At the very least talk to some of your friends/relatives that have children. Offer to babysit. Then you'll see what parents go through. As the old saying goes, "Never judge a man till you've walked a mile in his moccasins."


JGPH1A:

Looks like those rules you quoted are from the EU, correct? In the USA in most cases for domestic travel the 50% child fare rules only applies to those under two years of age. Children 3 to 12 pay full fare.


767Lover:

That FA was mis-informed. Like I said in my earlier post, I've had my infant children in car seats many times. My wife and I have never been told that we had to hold our infant in our laps during takeoff, taxi, or landing. In fact, the FAA strongly recommends that you purchase a separate seat to use a child restraint for an infant. The FAA wouldn't make this recommendation then say that the child needs to be in their parent's lap during takeoff, landing, or whatever.
 
767Lover
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RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 1:25 am

AKelley728:

Okay. It seemed like they (both of them) knew what they were talking about. I was a participant in this discussion for several minutes (because we were seated in the bulkhead and the FAs were seated in the jumpseats during taxi and the lady next to me (with the infant) and the FAs were talking about the lap policy. The FAs also had children, by the way.

I checked the Delta web site and they do say it is permissible to hold an infant on the lap at takeoff, etc.

As as far as the poster who made the comment about the $150K education: I didn't take it as comparing the value of tuition vs. a human being. I think the point he/she was trying to make was that we all make choices in how we are going to live our lives, and there are financial ramifications of these choices. Which means that if you decide to spend $150K on an education, that means you probably can't afford to travel by air as much as you'd like. The same goes for making the decision to raise a family. There is a financial component to every decision, and the ability to travel by air is or can be affected by that, unless you are fortunate enough to have unlimited funds.

On the other side of the coin, there are many elderly people who cannot travel alone (i.e., Alzheimer's.) To have a nurse or caregiver accompany them means two plane tickets always have to be purchased, or the person can't do things like see certain places or people "one last time." These are tough decisions but unfortunately given the expense of air travel, that's the way it is.

So, in response to your post, parents of kids aren't the only ones who have to bear financial responsibility for another human being.
 
SunValley
Topic Author
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RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 1:44 am

767Lover, I do agree with you to a certain extent.
In the entire scheme of things, the airline takes on a liability for that lap passenger, even if they didn't purchase a ticket for that passenger.
Financial responsibility "just because the infant travels for free" doesn't end with just the parents. In the case of an infant as a passenger, their life too has value, and the airline shares in that financial repsonsibility by the
parent simply carrying the infant down a jetway, regardless of whether there was a ticket purchased or not. But, above & beyond dollar liability etc., is the safety of the child and the person holding the infant. Will the quality of that infants life, or the carrying person be compromised because he or she was permitted to be carried as a lap passenger in the event of an accident by the airline, or an accident caused by the person carrying the lap passenger?

My whole reason for this post, is there are several of us representatives hired by a number of airlines to gather & present feedback to several government agencies on this very subject. Snide curt remarks have no place in the scheme of gathering this feedback to arrive at a consensus amongst governmental agencies and air carriers.
 
jmets18
Posts: 175
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:50 am

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 1:50 am

AKelley728,

Let me start out by apologizing for not looking at your profile. I'll have you know though...you'll be a lot more appreciative of the cost of college when your children attend. I don't want to here about money issues when it comes to a baby. You have no idea the cost of college these day's unless you've recently graduated.

There is a big difference between air, car, and rail travel. If I pay $800 for a plane ticket, there better not be a whining baby sitting next to me. It has nothing to do with not liking children. Stop being so defensive. It's my opinion vs. yours. I guarantee you this much. Take a survey at an airport sometime of people willing to sit next to a parent that is holding their child in their lap. I bet no one would want to sit next to them. You, and the rest of the cheap skate parents out there need to suck it up and pay for the airfare!
 
jmets18
Posts: 175
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:50 am

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 1:53 am

if you want to hold your kid on take off or landing, be my guest. hell, i'll sit on your lap if you want. but shut that kid up (crying) and keep his/her diaper clean when were at cruise.
 
propatriamori
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2000 6:42 am

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 2:04 am

Air Transportation is not a right, its a privilege.

You do not have a right to a free seat because you have a child.

You do not have a right to be seated in your own little bubble so that you can be completely unoffended by every other passenger on the plane. If you get seated next to a smelly person with a little kid, tough doody. If you don't like it, fly in first or get your own plane. If you don't like it that parents with small children get to board before you with your elite/executive/whatever status, tough doody, the same applies.

I think the current regulations and policies are well suited both to the needs of parents and the airlines (safety and financial). If you force parents to buy seats for all kids regardless of age, then a large percentage of parents will not be your customers. If you offer infants or kids their own seats at a 50% discount, then it will entice some parents to do so, and you get some compensation for the seat.

I personally was delighted to find out that I could get my 8 month old daughter her own seat for 50% fare for her first plane ride last month. I bought that seat, and I think the airline gave me a discounted fare for the accompanying adult as well (which was surprisingly reasonable, 3 of us flew for less that what we would normally pay for 2). I didn't relish the prospect of a squirming child for 4 1-hour segments, she slept comfortably in her seat most of the way, and her mom felt much better about her safety.
 
mawelsh
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2001 1:01 pm

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 2:14 am

http://home.wideopenwest.com/~mwelsh9999/park/brandonflying.jpg

I'm repeating showing this pic from another thread, but I've been very happy flying with my son in a childseat. He's safer and doesn't bother other passengers. When he was 1, we took another trip and he was a lap infant. I vainly clutched him during the takeoff rolls knowing he wasn't safe in my arms.

 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 2:28 am

For the record: I really have no opinion on the matter of car seats. I was just referring to an apparent discrepancy in policy that I witnessed on a flight. I am neither pro nor con about it.

My post was intended to address the "I have the expense of a child so therefore I'm entitled to free tickets" philosophy that some people (in general, not necessarily people on air.net) seem to have.
 
GARUDAROD
Posts: 1156
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 4:39 am

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 2:58 am


JMets18,
FYI, most children do not cry just for the sake of annoying your whiney
behind. Small children are more suseptible to the differences in the
air pressure and as a result are more apt to cry, especially during
take off and landing. Let me stick a pin in your ear next time and see
how you react. In general most kids are well behaved on flights, but there
are some that are allowed to roam free and they like the proverbial bad
apple set a bad tone for the rest of the group. If you are really so bothered
to have anyone sit next to you who may inconvenience your space,
why dont YOU buy the extra seat to ensure nobody intrudes!
Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
 
Turtle
Posts: 198
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2001 5:54 am

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 3:13 am

Jmets18, I hope you don't practice what you preach about obnoxious screaming kids on flights.
The first flight my daughter rode on our laps. We had just bought a house and literally had no money. Financially, it would break us at the time to purchase another ticket and this was a trip that we had to take. So, I take offense that you call us cheap skate parents. Someday you will be paying a mortgage, re-paying student loans, paying utility bills, car loans, unexpected repair expenses, and may God bless, support a family. That few hundred dollars can really make a defense. Those parents carrying there babies on their laps are NOT cheap skates. If it was financially feasable to get their child a seat, they would.

Anyway, turns out my daughter had an ear infection and she cried the entire flight. A passenger around your age yelled at my wife to shut that baby up. Well, about 1/2 the couch cabin rallied to our defense and carved that kid a new a##hole BIG TIME.
He was riding with his tail between his legs the rest of the flight. Pretty much kept his head down.
 
jmets18
Posts: 175
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:50 am

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 3:40 am

i'm not saying that little kids shouldn't fly, or that i need someone to stick a needle in my ear to show me what little kids go through. i don't give a rats a$$. i'm not even blaming the kids for crying. i'm blaming the parents out there for not doing there job. it's the parents fault if their kid is romping all over the aisle. or if the kid throws food at the person they're sitting next to. it's the parents fault if they can't afford a plane ticket for their kids. but again, i don't care. again, let's make a couple of things clear. i don't hate kids. and it's not the parents fault that the law is on their side in terms of placing a child under two years of age in their lap for the entire flight (or whatever the age is). however, i wish the law were changed so that they had to purchase a seat. and i would also purchase a seat for my child so the flight were more comfortable for them, and ME! anyone that tells you it's not an inconvenience to fly nest to a problem child is lying. and to anyone that tells me flying isn't supposed to be convenient, you can kiss my a$$. if i weren't looking for convenience i would drive.
 
jmets18
Posts: 175
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:50 am

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 3:55 am

i'm officially leaving this thread. i'm sure i've made some enemies, and that was not my intention. however, everyone must stick by their opinions. everyone on here with a family will be against me. however, i doubt many young individuals like myself could disagree with my points. also, to "Turtles" comments, the only difference between you and i is that you've got a kid and i've got college loans. everything else you listed we share.
 
atco
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2001 2:30 am

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 4:01 am

Jmets18,

I assume with your attitude you were never a baby and never cried.......you must have arrived into the World as a teenager?

BTW, did your parents ever fly when you were a baby (of course assuming you were one)?
Do you think they would have liked some obnoxious 23 year old telling them they should shut their baby up and to stop ruining his flight?

The parents of children pay the same price for their seats as you do, they have just as much right to be on their as you, and the little babies of today that you obviously dislike so much are the poor bastards who will have to pay even more for their college education 20 years from now and will be swelling the coffers of your pension fund.

If you can't handle the realities of public transportation, don't use it.
I have to say I think your attitude will change markedly if you ever have children of your own............imagine you are sitting on the plane with your pride and joy, the most important thing in your life and some young lad sits next to you moaning and whining about your kid, you come back here and tell us your feelings then.
Remember........we were all babies at one time, maybe even you too
Canon through and through
 
danialanwar
Posts: 420
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:13 pm

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 4:28 am

Well said, ATCO!

It's good to know that those people who call kids "the damn kid" and "the little bastard" actually also refer to themselves ... but they're just too proud to see it.

Would be nice to re-run this thread in, say, 20 years from now and wonder, wonder, have opinions changed.

By the way, if you dont like kids next to you in the plane, does it matter how much they've paid for the seat / no-seat ... after all, kids behave the way they do and not according to the ticket price.
Best Business Class: Royal Brunei. Best Economy: Singapore Airlines. First: please send money first!
 
akelley728
Posts: 2065
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 1999 12:35 pm

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 5:31 am

Jmets18:

I don't know if you're still reading this thread, but I want to respond to your comments:

Believe me, I know how much college costs. You complain about your $150,000 college costs. Yet you tell me I'll be more appreciative of college costs when my children attend. So who paid in your case? Your parents or you? I don't understand your argument

Are you again assuming that everybody who has kids is old? Your ignorance again amazes me. I'm not that old (I graduated only a few years ago), and my brother recently graduated. Again, like I said, I actually talk to people who have gone through what you're going through. When was the last time you tried to understand what a new parent goes through? My brother is struggling with paying off his college loans as well as supporting a new wife.

Like Turtle said, now imagine, take your $150,000 college loan and on top of that add a mortgage, car payment, paying utilities, and yes, all of the additional expenses of raising a family. Then talk to me about struggling financially. That $200 or so you'll save not having to pay for your infant seat on an airplane will be a blessing. You say you're struggling financially because of your college costs. Do you not try to save money wherever possible? Don't call new parents cheapskates because they're trying to save some money.

Anyway, I want to go on record saying that I don't think I have the "right" or am "entitled' to a free passage for my infant if he/she is with me on a flight. I think it's a blessing, and in my wildest dreams the FAA will go a step further and say that an airline should provide a seat for an infant free of charge. I know it won't happen, but it would be cool it would happen.

Also, if the FAA tomorrow would require me to buy a seat for my infant, guess what, I would suck it up and chalk it up as an additional expense when flying. As I said before, I consider the current FAA regulations a blessing, not a 'right' or an 'entitlement'.

One last thing, do you know why an infant cries on an airplane? Due to air pressure changes, crying is the only way to relieve the pressure in the air. You can yawn, chew gum, etc. to relieve the pressure. Babies only know one way to do it. They cry. Get over it. If they have an ear infection (like Turtle's daughter), they are in excruciating pain. Put yourself in that child's place (imagine a pin going in your ear like an earlier poster said). Have some sympathy for God's sake.
 
MD80Nut
Posts: 975
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 6:43 am

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 5:49 am

Having seen a 2 year old get severely injured when he slid off his mother's lap next to me during a hard landing and smacked his face on the bottom of the seat in front, I have a very strong opinion on this subject. The child broke his nose and jaw, and I was helping the mother hold the child while medical personnel arrived. I had the child's blood from his nose all over my pants! Fortunately the child recovered, the mother was kind enough to write to me after I gave her my address after we got off the plane and she went to the hospital.

After that experience, all I can say is that restraint seats should be mandatory regardless of who has to pay for it. Safety first. Anything else is irrelevant nonsense.

cheers, Ralph
Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
 
akelley728
Posts: 2065
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 1999 12:35 pm

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 5:57 am

767Lover:

hey, it wouldn't be the first time Delta employee's screwed up a policy regarding children/infants!

Personal experience: My firstborn's second trip with us was a roundtrip on Delta from EWR - SEA. At one point we had a connection in CVG. When we went to board we asked for a gate check tag for the baby stroller. The Delta gate agent started yelling and screaming at us saying we were supposed to luggage check strollers 'per regulations'. I stood my ground, saying there is no such rule, that I was able to gate check the stroller on the inbound DL flight, and it was a 'rule' the personnel at EWR would've said so. I also added that was able to gate check it on many previous flights that I had taken on CO and HP. When I asked for a supervisor, she backed down, threw a gate tag at me and let us pass.

Back to topic:

I certainly have empathy for those that have to care for an elderly parent or an ailing or disabled family member. I work for a company that provides services for those with mental retardation and developmental disabilities. I feel for the families and the financial struggles that happen in having to care for a person like that. As for the elderly, my parents had a huge financial burden in trying to care for my now departed grandmother (she required extensive assistive care as then nursing home care right before she died). Plus my parents are getting up there in age, and I know I'm going to bear some of the financial burden in trying to take care of them eventually.

In a perfect world I want free or heavily discounted airline seats for them too!  Smile
 
Guest

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 6:05 am

excuse me while i go castrate myself to make sure i never have kids. You have kids, its your problem.. not mine. I am 23 and hope to never have to deal with screaming poop factories and while not paying $150k for my college education please pick up my air fare since i am paying out the wazoo for that. My point is that your kid is YOUR problem, not mine and not the airlines. The little poop factory should pay full price and sit in a safety seat.. prefferably with a muzzle so they cannot speak or cry. Unless you give the kid enough thorazine to tranquilize a horse they are going to make other travellers trips miserable.. so if that deters you from traveling by air with the kid GREAT!! Now lets hear how awful i am for not liking kids. I have no idea how immature the rest of you are but even if i am sitting next to a screaming little bastard or a whale of a sweaty beast i manage to keep my opinion on them being there to myself.

[Edited 2003-10-16 23:10:04]
 
atco
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2001 2:30 am

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 6:24 am

startvalve,

You were never a screaming poop factory, little bastard or a whale of a sweaty beast then?
Did you ever fly as a young child?

I'm delighted you won't be having kids because I would feel so sorry for any child having you as it's father.

It really staggers me just how intolerent the population of this World has become.

As a final aside, I would object strongly to having to sit next to an arrogant, opinionated, intolerant, spiteful and generally unpleasant, evil twat like you on an airplane. Infact I would rather sit in a row full of infants than risk spending one nanosecond in the company of someone capable of such hate to any member of the human race, much less innocent children.
Canon through and through
 
Guest

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 6:38 am

First flight was when I was 9.. I was too glued to the window to worry about anything else and no I am 6'4 and a hair under 200lbs so nope im not a big sweaty whale either. Opinions are like assholes, we all have them.. Also because I do have an opinion does not mean you have to like it and I fail to see how it makes me arrogant for stating my opinion even though its unpopular. Enjoy the row of infants, I will not be fighting to sit next to you either.

Also much thanks for doing exactly what I said you would.. Telling me how awful I am cuz I don't like your ugly baby.

[Edited 2003-10-16 23:49:26]
 
RickB
Posts: 807
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 3:11 am

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 7:02 am

I'm on the children should pay full price side im afraid !!

Just because people are short of money shouldn't give them the right to bring an extra passenger onboard regardless of their age. I cant afford a Ferrari so does that mean I should be offered one at a 50% discount because it will help my mortgage payments ????

Sitting a baby on its parents lap is not only dangerous for the child - but dangerous for other passengers. In the event of severe turbulence, the child is in serious danger of being terminally injured - this may sound callous and its not meant to be - but a baby flying around the cabin in turbulence is also highly dangerous to other passengers children or adults !! Babies should have their own child seat on an aircraft.

The comment about babies crying is appreciated - but if its so painful for the child due to the changes in air pressure - here's a tip for you - dont take your child on a plane - your only causing it distress. My parents waited until I was 3 or 4 before taking me on a flight - by that time I was old enough to know what was happening and enjoy it.

RickB

 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 7:04 am

AKelley:

In Delta's defense, it was a SW flight where the car seat thing was discussed.

Just in case anyone was going to swoop in and tell me that Delta FAs would never say that, etc etc!

 Smile
 
Guest

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:06 pm

Some people just have trouble understanding the viewpoints of others. I understand their view that they think little screamers should ride for free. I would prefer they don't and it appears you feel the same way Jmets18. Personally I cannot stand kids but I understand they are necessary for the species to continue. Not everyone is meant to be a parent and some of us would be happier never even thinking about it. At the end of the day loving kids or hating them, wanting them or not it comes down to the airline needs to put their diaper wearing butts in a safety seat for the kids own good and to protect the airline from a lawsuit. I do not think they should get a discount either.. What if its an entire flight of mothers with infants, does the airline fly at a loss for the sake of the kid? I don't think so.. Make them pay the same as the rest of us. Let the invisible hand of the market dictate how many screaming kids we get on the plane in the future. Maybe if its the little screamers first time seeing granny you can fly granny to see the kid instead of packing up the whole family and making 2hrs of some poor travelers life miserable when he/she only wants a nap, or to read, or to look out the window, or do work on the way to their destination.
 
CitationX
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:18 am

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:21 pm

As for babies on aircraft - Airlines: please give 'em in car-like seats. Parents: please dose them with an infant dose of decongestant/sedative before boarding.

As for the rest of you, get a set of Bose QuietComfort headphones and an i-Pod full of your favorite music (and bring spare batteries) and relax. When the batteries run out, or you get bored, take an Ambien and snooze.......

 
Guest

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:30 pm

some of us find the most relaxing sound in the world is the sound of jet engines at cruise power. I also rather enjoy looking out the window.. hard to do in a drug induced coma listening to tunes we have to turn off for takeoff and landing.. when the kids scream the most
 
atco
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2001 2:30 am

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 2:29 pm

I said it before and I'll say it again,

It's very, very sad how intolerant this Planet has become.

I wonder if these sort of opinions would be acceptable if we were talking about black people or overweight people or the disabled.........of course these subject are politically incorrect, but little ones seem to be fair game.

I love how certain people seem only too eager to forget where they came from and that they were babies once too.
If people practised a little more tolerance and respect maybe this World would not be turning into the s*it hole it is becoming.

Startvalve, I'm not sure quite how you think my baby is ugly as you have never met her, but I think that's going pretty low.............would you like to pick a fight with her too or physically abuse her?
Are there any other vulnerable groups you'd like to insult or have a go at?
Perhaps you've got some good jokes about wheelchair users you'd like to share with us?
No wonder you have a zero respect rating, you're below contempt.
Canon through and through
 
RickB
Posts: 807
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 3:11 am

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 4:22 pm

Atco,

If you where forced to listen to someone elses music at very high volumes for the duration of a flight would you be so tolerant? Noise pollution regardless of the source is still pollution be it music or a baby screaming. Would you be so happy to sit next to someone who chain smokes throughout the flight?

This is nothing to do with intolerance - simply the fact that most people dont find the sound of a baby screaming a pleasureable thing. If the baby is crying - as has been said its in discomfort - surely the parents should do something to remedy that situation rather than expecting everyone else to tolerate it.

RickB
 
atco
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2001 2:30 am

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Fri Oct 17, 2003 5:00 pm

Rick you don't have children do you?

1. Loud music..........you can ask someone to turn that down or turn it off, if they don't then they are rude and intolerant

2. Smoking............well for one it is not legal to do it on almost all airlines and again the answer above applies.

3. A crying baby..........Any parent worth anything will do what they can to stop their baby crying for the childs sake, for the parents sanity and for other people's comfort, but the fact is you cannot always stop a child crying. They make noise for all sorts of reasons, they do it in the car, on the bus, in the shopping centre, it is human nature I'm afraid and you yourself were like that once as is every single other human being who has drawn breath on this planet.
I don't have an ounce of time for parents who don't ensure their children are well behaved, or who leave them to cry and disrupt everyone else, but maybe you should ask your parents about what it's like when a child cries and you can't soothe them, because every baby on Earth has done that sometime.

So yes it does have everything to do with tolerance and accepting that children are children, and you would do well to remember where you came from.
Canon through and through
 
jmets18
Posts: 175
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:50 am

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Sat Oct 18, 2003 1:30 am

Atco,

Are you seriously trying to make an argument between crying babies and skin color/disabled, or overweight people? You better get on track man. There is no comparison between babies and skin color/being disabled. However, overweight people on the other hand: For medical reasons, they should purchase two seats. It's not healthy for the people they are next to to have to be in a cramped space. As if coach seats aren't cramped enough. And if you think I'm making a stink about nothing, a woman just filed a lawsuit because she ended up with a blood-clot because the individual she was sitting next to was so overweight that her leg's were being pinched throughout the entire flight. So yeah, babies need to kept in line, and overweight people need two seats. It's not a far fetched scenario!
 
Guest

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Sat Oct 18, 2003 1:45 am

Pretty sad atco when your respect rating on a message board actually means something to you.. Also if you notice I have hardly been a member for a month. You are talking about all of us being intolerant. Don't look now but you are the intolerant one. Ok you don't mind some poop factory screaming in your ear for 2.5 hrs or puking on you or whatever but you do get upset that the rest of us mind that. No I don't want to abuse your kid, having a father that is as intolerant of the views of others as you are is abuse enough. I have no trouble with people of other colors riding on an airplane, do wish to propose they ride in the back atco? I have never seen anyone in a wheelchair on an airplane, I doubt I would want to sit next to the wheelchair though. And seeing as the smell of a chain smoker sitting next to me would be most unbearable I think I would try to find an airline that does not allow smoking. Being an American finding a non smoking airline is not hard but good luck finding a screaming baby and overweight person free airline. I am sorry that in your world we have to like everything about every body without question. My world does not work that way. I thought it was a freedom all humans had to not like someone or something for any reason. I really don't think liking kids or not has a real bearing on this topic anyway, I think the kids should be in safety seats FOR THEIR OWN GOOD and since the airline should be allowed to make money on the flight the seat should cost as much as anyone else's seat. The side effect being fewer kids on flights. It sounds like everyone wins, the kids are safer, the airline sells another seat or two, and travelers get fewer kids on flights... Tell me who is losing out?
 
RickB
Posts: 807
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 3:11 am

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Sat Oct 18, 2003 2:16 am

Atco,

I remember perfectly well where I am from - I also remember my parents being exceptionally considerate to others with regards to my actions as a child - as I stated before they refrained from taking me on an aircraft until I was old enough to know what was happening (3 or 4 years) and not scream for the entire flight. The number of flights I have been on where the parents have made little attempt to quiet the baby or stop a child from throwing a tantrum depresses me somewhat for the state of our society. Its fine to ask someone to be quiet, or to tell someone to stop smoking but if you ask someone to quieten a baby like yourself - you are made to look like an ogre - and I have forgotten where I am from ? But the truth it pollution is pollution regardless of the source.

I am certainly not intolerant - infact I have done more than my fair share of quietening babies on flights if only to get some peace for my fellow passengers. The fact that I may or may not have children has no bearing on this conversation - I simply follow the example given to me by my parents - I wont let my child fly until they are old enough to understand the situation.

Screaming aside - as I said earlier - children should have their own seat - not only that but they should also have a car type seat provided by the airline - this will cost money and should be paid for in the same manner that everyone else pays for their seat since the service costs more to provide due to the child seat - its logical to assume this should cost more to buy. Babies flying on parents laps is a danger to everyone including the baby. Babies weigh anything from a few pounds (new borns) to a couple of stone in weight (fat ones  Wink/being sarcastic ) on object weighing that much has a lot of potential to kill, maim and destroy in severe turbulence.

RickB
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Babies Flying For Free As Lap Passengers

Sat Oct 18, 2003 2:48 am

This thread has frustrated me to the point I have to speak up again.

Parents:

* If you are concerned with the safety of your infant in flight (and of course you are) then be prepared to buy a seat for him/her. It is safer for everyone.

* If you are really concerned with the comfort and well being of your infant, you won't put them through the agony of the ear-drum pressure you describe -- and you'll avoid flying altogether. Why purposefully do something that CAUSES them to scream? If their arm was being pinched to the point of screaming you would be upset with the person pinching them. And yet flying does the same thing.

* Please don't say things like "you have no idea how expensive it is to have a child." To have any sort of decent life these days IS expensive, whether you are a single person struggling to pay off your education or you're a father of six kids. Having children sometimes means making sacrifices and not living with the conveniences you could if you didn't have extra mouths to feed -- conveniences such as airline travel. A couple of my friends who have kids opt to drive instead of fly, and sometimes it means drives of 8 or 10 hours.

* Please don't assume that people without children have fewer expenses or more disposable income than you (as was inferred earlier). I am single, childless and yet have some hefty medical expenses to take care of in addition to worrying about funding adequate care for my elderly parents. I do all of this on one income. It is for this reason that I have chosen NOT to have a child because I know I cannot adequately cover the financial costs of raising one right now.

Startvalve, Jmets18:

I understand how excrutiatingly frustrating it is to hear a baby screaming when you're trapped in a metal tube. However, it can't be helped. Babies are part of the world, so you will either have to 1) live with it...2) not fly...or 3) fly first class. I personally don't like it when people eat onions before a flight and then breathe putrid-smelling breath all over me during the flight, but that's the pain I have to endure to get someplace fast. The amount of hatred you express makes you sound juvenile. Grow up and stop thinking only of yourselves.

RickB:

You are the voice of reason in all of this nonsense.

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