At the risk of groans of "oh no, not this again," I just wanted to post an update in the my ongoing saga with United over their "Fly Three, Fly Free" promotion. The other threads have already been archived, or I would have posted updates there.

To recap, both Mileage Plus and United Customer Relations told me that my 9/10, 9/11 trip, LAX-SFO-ORD-IAD-DEN-LAX, was not a "Round" trip, it was considered a "Circle" trip. This means that it did not qualify under their "Fly Three, Fly Free" promotion.

Two + weeks ago, I sent a letter to John Tague at WHQ (along with a copy of my report that is posted on the "Trip Reports" board), telling of my disappointment at the response I received from Customer Relations. Today, Friday, 10/17, I received a phone call from someone in his office to discuss my letter.

She told me that this trip is still considered a "Circle" trip, not a "Round" trip, but because they were all First Class segments, they got the approval to award me the free, highly restricted, economy class ticket under the promotion. She was very nice and professional; however, it took her a few minutes to understand that my argument really not was about not getting the ticket, my disappointment came from the fact the promotion as advertised did not make all of this clear in the first place. If I had known the difference, and the promotion advertising posted all of this fine print, then I would not have been so put off. She finally caught on and promised to pass this information on to the marketing department.

I am grateful to receive the free ticket. I'm not sure I will use it for myself, as it is in economy and cannot be upgraded. I'll probably give it to my mother. However, I still cannot help but feel a little "dirty" by all of this. United did not acknowledge they made a mistake, they just said they were making an exception for me. Can the cost be measured for not only the loss of my future business, but the loss of other loyal UA customers who were put off by this same mistake, or some other customer service misstep?

She complimented my "Trip Report" and did say that it has been passed on to the "On-Board service" Manager. She asked if I was a consultant as it contained information, or knowledge, they normally do not hear from customers. I just replied that I was a hobbyist, and shared this with others with the same interest. OK, so this is being passed on to the "On-Board Service" manager - what happens then? Will changes be made?

I am still in a quandry over my possible trip to London the last week of November. I will know no later than Tuesday if I am going for sure, and I need to make arrangements. Checking schedules, my choices are UA, AA, or BA. The round-trip first class fare is the same for all 3. It's not a cheap trip. Will UA disappoint again, or should I just go with BA? I've never flown them, but many of my associates prefer them over AA, and especially over UA.

Andersjt, It seems to me that you are making a big deal out of nothing. United is giving you a free ticket, so I'm not understanding the problem. I understand that your "disappointment came from the fact the promotion as advertised did not make all of this clear in the first place", but you do get a free ticket, and while this might not be want you ultimately wanted, what is United to do? Do you want the CEO to make a commercial and apologize to the world that the promotion had errors in it?

"Can the cost be measured for not only the loss of my future business, but the loss of other loyal UA customers who were put off by this same mistake?" I don't understand how this incident would make you not want to fly on UAL in the future. You fought back and you won, a free ticket in hand. If other people ran into the same problem, if they complained to UAL too, then surely they got a ticket as well. But honestly, even if other people were "screwed" by UAL, does it really affect the airline that much? It sounds like you fly quite a bit in First class, but think about it, if you leave will it make UAL go under? I think not. One passenger (or even a handful of passengers) do not make or break an airline.

As for your trip to London, my question is have you had good service with UAL in the past? If so, then put this petty ordeal behind you and fly UAL to London.

Anders:

If you've never flown BA First Class, then you should give them a go. I've flown all three of them, and both UA and AA are good, but don't match the "class" of BA - given that you can have a bad flight with anyone.

Howsumever, I'm not sure why Virgin Atlantic isn't on your list. It isn't "First" Class, it's Business, but it's First in all but name.

The Virgin lounges at the various airports are terrific, and there's the limo provided free to get you to your London hotel from Heathrow and back again.

On a "value for money" basis, Virgin is, I think, the clear winner.

cheers

mariner

MOTECH722,
You put that nicely,a little mild I would say.
The thing that kills me is ander knew that the ticket was a circle trip, anybody can see that, whined and got the ticket and is contemplating not traveling UAL again because HE didn't understand the rules? Wow, what a sad moment in aviation history for ander to not take UAL. And when AA screws him, he will leave them for CO and once gordo opens his mouth will try uncle milty and his fabulous bunch of employees, until he runs out of airlines and goes back to UAL to blah blah blah


I have flown BA first and it is the same as the rest in my opinion, I would want to try AA first(777 ONLY) if you are so uneasy with UAL for issuing a free ticket and bending the rules for you.

UAL 777 CONTRAIL

Ual777contrail,

there is no way a customer could have seen whether the ticket was a circle or a round trip unless the customer knows how to read the fare calculation. The routing itself can be a roundtrip. What must have made the routing a circle trip was either a mileage surcharge or a HIP (higher intermediate rated point).

Now, the promotion required for a roundtrip, but I would argue for two reasons that a circle trip would have to qualify as well:

a) there is (see above) no way an average customer can see that his ticket (origin/destination the same) is not a roundtrip
b) since a circle trip is a roundtrip with surcharges (mileage, HIP) it would be unfair to exclude those passengers from the promotion which actually paid more money for the trip just because either their trip did not fit into the maximum permitted mileage or because they flew via a "high price" city (in Andersjts case that was most likely SFO)

Once again, the routing is not what made above trip a circle trip!

ZSSNC

To Motech722 and UAL777Contrail:

Some facts you need to get straight:
1. I did not know there was a difference between a "Circle" and "Round" trip.
2. Nowhere in the details posted for the promotion was there any language saying there was a difference. Mr. Tague's office has acknowledged that fact, and is advising the marketing department of that mistake.

My desire never was or is to "fight back" to get what I earned. Nor should that be expected of any customer. I do not want to fight with United. If the United States were to have a flagship carrier, then United should have that title. My posts are offered as constructive insights to get the message across that I am on their side.

Motech - my experiences with UA, especially on my 9/11 trip, have been mixed. It is hard to think about spending a lot of money with them again. Yet, there is something in me that really wants them to succeed and emerge from this mess on top.

The bankruptcy has been incredibly damaging to UA in terms of lost customers. It costs more to try to get new customers than it does to retain loyal customers. Expensive advertising and steep discounting are needed to get new customers. Once you've got them, then it is up to the employees and management of United to make sure those customers keep coming back, or else the airline is left with no choice but to keep up the expensive advertising and steep discounting to fill planes. Money that could be used to pay employees a better wage, and fund pensions.

You have the thought that UA will not miss my business, and they may not. On this trip there will by myself and 2 associates. As of today, the round-trip fare on UA is over $14K per person. Now if I know when I spend that much money, I will not be disappointed again, UA is an automatic choice. No advertising, promotion or steep discounting needed. If I try AA, first, UA has lost out on $42K in revenue. Who knows if there will be someone to step up and pay that much, maybe. If not, then as of today, UA is selling RT tickets for $441 on the same days. By my calculations, that is 95 seats they have to sell to make up for the lost revenue provided by me and my associates. Second, if I am happy with my experience on AA, guess where I will be spending my money next time? No expensive advertising or promotion needed.

Mariner - thank you for your suggestion about Virgin. I will look into it.

..I'm not sure I will use it for myself, as it is in economy..

Hope I'll live to say that..

regards, Plane Holland

Having worked Ticket Counters & Gates for several airlines, it never ceases to amaze me how people always try to circumvent rules to get their "free" upgrade, free ticket or whatever, then bitch about it when they get it.
I wonder if ticket agents at the greyhound bus get the same type of
bull*** that airline staff gets.

Plane Holland:

You're right, pretty arrogant statement. It was written out of my disappointment that at the end of the conversation, UA still made me feel they were doing me a favor and granting an exception rather than realizing that a mistake was made.

Having been a customer of several airlines, it never ceases to amaze me how the airlines try to weasel-word their promotions to get you in the door and then not allow you the benefit of the promotion. You know, like $99 fares of which they have only 5 seats on a flight. "...But since you waited on hold for 25 minutes, would you like to try our $120 fare?"

If greyhound pulls the same marketing bull**** that the airlines do, their staff probably gets the same bull****.  TC

amazing how if someone spends $$, they have power over everyone else. isn't it

SunValley-

Who does airline management and shareholders want as customers? Loyal customers with $, or one-time customers that expensive advertising and deep discounting have brought in.

Not going to far into this discussion but Andersjt has a point about the $

Everybody wants to book a low fare for themselves but no one wants to pay the actual seatprice. But that's a total different discussion.

$14K per person round trip to London!?! In my opinion, I am not sure any airline gives that good of service.

Having worked for several airlines, I would suggest asking them when booking does this trip qualify for the specific promotion. Off course you may be on the phone for another hour while you get passed from agent to agent to get the correct answer.

Andersjt, I think you should stay with UA - you seem to like flying with them (which, for that much, I can understand) and, regardless how some of their employees have made you feel, they definitively want - and need - your business.

Obviously, you're not going to be the only person spending $14k on a seat, ther'll be a few on the plane along with you, but any representant or employee of and airline that makes someone willing to spend that amount of money for a total of 3 pax, should be treated with absolute respect and courtesy - for that much, so should a person sitting several rows further back and flying on the same flights for $500.

I, after having tried several US airlines, still consider UA to be top of the range, although I know that I might have had bad luck on other carriers - but in about 40 UA flights last year, I've not experienced a single one where I was not satisfied with the service and courtesy of the staff during check-in, on board and after the flight.

And considering the responses of customers of mine, UA still comes out sharing first place with CO and ahead of DL and AA (just reporting opinions here, and even though I share them, I accept that not everyone else does).

If you want to try something else, though, I would also say Virgin Atlantic - BA has gotten a lot better from what they used to be... 5-6 years ago I had made the promise to myself to absolutely, absolutely never, ever fly BA again - I had to at one point and was, to my surprise, not disappointed, they really are quite good - but from all I've heard, VS really is quite a few steps above and beyond BA...

Too bad they don't offer fares from Germany...

i weighed in a fair amount on the last thread about this, and feel compelled to do so again. first of all, andersjt, you remain atop my respected users list bcs of the intelligent, factual posts you regularly submit. however, i still feel this is being made into a bigger deal than it should be.

yes, UA could have done a better job at defining circle with round trip, and explaining that on the promotion. for the routing you took, the way UA didnt clearly state the rules, and the money you spent - if not for the gesture alone - one could easily argue that you deserved the free roundtrip. you were dissatisifed, you let the airline know, and they have received your comments and directed them appropriately, while also awarding you a ticket which - despite how unclear the rules were stated - you still did not qualify for.

i have no doubt that UA is doing everything they can to retain customers and gain new ones. but especially given the bankruptcy situation, along with the size and scope of their operations, not all needs get met nor do issues get addressed right away, and there will be occasional instances where there is room for improvement. that is where the customer can raise the issue to the airline - as you did - so that it can be addressed, and sometimes the customer compensated for their experience.

i just think your sensitivity meter is turned up a little too high on this one. something like this could happen on any carrier, and i just dont see it as a 'never fly them again issue.' you could very easily go to a different airline for each of your next several trips, and find something that could be improved. in a short time you might rule out everyone!

as far as the money you spend on this ticket, while UA already provides several levels of enhanced treatment/benefits (1Ks, premier execs, full-fare coach, etc., etc.), there are limits to it and it cant go out to the highest bidder. in one ticket you may pay the equivalent of 95 regular coach passengers, but those 95 passengers represent the bulk of UAs customers - they deserve acceptable service and treatment just as much as you do.

and to be honest, while LAX-LHR is a long, uncomfortable flight, $14k a person seems like a lot for a company to pay. sure, maybe you're going to a meeting to bring in a $5 miilion in new business, so proportionately its a drop in the bucket - if the trip is successful. but if i were in your shoes and trying to be cost conscious where it is easy and makes sense to do so, maybe i'd pay for business class only, or just full-fare coach and look to upgrade from there.

also, someone else said something about the fine print of promotions like this. remember, airlines do these promotions to generate additional business, not to give tickets away left and right and lose money. it wouldnt be in their best interests to not have specific qualifications put in place so that overall, the promotion works out more favorably for them than the customer. (i.e. only qualifying for the fly 3, get one free promotion if your 3 trips have no sat night stays, therefore being more expensive business traveller fares). we cant load these threads calling for airlines to be more fiscally responsible, yet simultaneously complain that they arent giving enough things away, or are being more restrictive than we'd like.

Potomac:

Thank you for your wise words. When you think about it, the real victory is that UA called me personally to resolve this. Loyal fans and customers such as myself just want them to get everything right, they can't afford to make mistakes. If they can sell one ticket for $42K and 95 tickets totalling $42K on the same flight - that's where we want them to be. That's where they want to be.

Well, I'm not going to worry about London until I know we're going for sure. How we go depends on my boss with the expensive tastes. Who knows maybe cheaper tickets and using miles to upgrade is the way to go. Then I may not be as disappointed. (Less revenue for United though).

'''I am grateful to receive the free ticket. I'm not sure I will use it for myself, as it is in economy and cannot be upgraded. I'll probably give it to my mother'''

I hate to read those responses, why is economy not good enough for you? Maybe you should give the ticket to an African who is dying from hunger?

thanks.. Just had to say this........;

andersjt - fair enough. now, can i come work for your company?

"Having worked Ticket Counters & Gates for several airlines, it never ceases to amaze me how people always try to circumvent rules to get their "free" upgrade, free ticket or whatever, then bitch about it when they get it."


Exactly, SunValley! That is why I have learned to never, EVER grant an upgrade request to anyone who comes onboard yelling and hollering about whatever has pissed them off and demanding to be moved up to first. When I was a young, naive purser (4 years ago) I tried that approach. You would think that it would pacify these irate blowhards, but I soon found that that was never the case. All they did was keep bitching about the airline the whole flight, pestering myself and my crew every 2 minutes with some minor complaint, and annoying all of my REAL F/C PAX. Never again.

With all those fare-rules, fare classes, complications, restricted-promotions, circle, round and the like; its no wonder the simplified LCC's are doing so much better than the large network carriers!

ANDERSJT,
You amaze me, you have responded to several post about how you only want what is right, and you have SO much money to spend but nobody gives you enough respect? You got your FREE ticket even though you aren't entitled to it, you did a circle trip. You have to know that when you fly LAX-SFO-ORD-IAD-LAX that that isn't a round trip, but if they credited it as 1 round trip you would have gone threw the roof. Here is a classic example of what a round trip is, LAX-ORD-LAX. United respects you more than you think, you got a free ticket, they have shown you how much they care about your business, but you still wont fly them because? You flew a trip that shouldn't have qualified you for a free tick but still got one anyways? Man, what a cool airline.


The problem with some people today is they don't take responsibility for their actions, or admit when they are wrong. As a CSR I have sold hundreds of tickets to all over the world, HKG, ORD, JAC, AMS you name it, and I have sold straight "F" seats, 3 class and all, and have never seen a ticket to LHR in any class for 14k. I don't know if this is a donation but 14k is pretty high for a ticket, E-MAIL me and I'll get you a full "F" ticket and save your company 21k for you and your 2 buddies traveling with you.

You deserve the red carpet, but it appears the red carpet isn't good enough.
Thanks for flying us, hope we can serve you in the near future, andersjt.

UAL 777 CONTRAIL

You have to know that when you fly LAX-SFO-ORD-IAD-LAX that that isn't a round trip, but if they credited it as 1 round trip you would have gone threw the roof.

A) How mamny people know the exact difference between a round trip and a circle trip?

B) How many people read the fare calculation box to be absolutely sure they have a round trip?

C) How many people would expect that if you pay more (circle trips tend to more expensive than round trips) these flight don't qualify (moreover if circle trips aren't explicitly excluded)?

My answer to all question. A few

Kevi747, during my DL years, a story circulated around the stations about a
F Class passenger who used an upgrade certificate on an L1011 from
ATL to FRA. He was extremely demanding of the crew, and called the Sr Flight Attendant over to his seat, and exclaimed that the nuts were stale, the coffee was old, and the vodka he had been served was the most watered down he had ever tasted. He demanded his dinner be served immediately, and that if it could not be done, "he would have that flight attendants job".
The Sr flight attendant politely responded. "Oh Sir, you would just love working this job, We meet the nicest people."

LJ,
I don't know why everyone has issues with the fare calculation, I am not talking about that.

just look at the city pairs.... That is all you need to do, look at the city pairs and realize that if your trip included 8 different cities and they all seem to get farther away from the first? Then that may be your red flag you are on a circle trip.

another? Open jaw tickets, these are tickets where, oh bother, here are city pairs to help you along with the example.

LAX-DEN then instead of coming home out of DEN you leave on the non-stop COS-LAX. That is an open jaw ticket, yes it is in a way a round trip, but when different city pairs are involved, then you don't have the round trip.

This is an advertisement to bring in people to United, they are wanting you to fly more, and the prices of these tickets are somewhat inexpensive hub to hub. If you don't meet the rules or requirements for a free ticket for this particular promotion then you aren't entitled to a free ticket. ANDER Was in a different situation, he paid $$$ for his ticket and it looks like UAL recognized that and rewarded him for his loyalty and pocket book.

UAL 777 CONTRAIL

ANDERSJT,

You say your "experiences with UA, especially on my 9/11 trip, have been mixed. It is hard to think about spending a lot of money with them again." Well, it's amazing to hear someone that is supposedly a "loyal customer" like yourself say this. I'm curious especially about your 9/11 flight? Are you refering to 9/11/2001? Was your flight diverted like everyone else's and you were stranded even though you paid so much money?

"Expensive advertising and steep discounting are needed to get new customers. Once you've got them, then it is up to the employees and management of United to make sure those customers keep coming back, or else the airline is left with no choice but to keep up the expensive advertising and steep discounting to fill planes." So you're saying that Southwest can't keep customers either? I mean, if your logic holds true that airlines only advertise and give discounted fares because they cannot keep customers, then that would definately explain why Southwest advertises non-stop, and has low fares. But then it doesn;t make sense why Southwest continues to be profitable.

As for saying "Money that could be used to pay employees a better wage, and fund pensions." Ha, that's exactly what management will do with money that they make, "pay employees a better wage." I used to work at AWA back in the late 90s, and when the company was doing great, we didn't see our wages go up.

As for suggesting that UA will not miss your business, maybe they will, but not likely. One person doesn't make a difference. Having worked in the airline industry, I always loved it when passengers would say "I'm never going to fly this airline again." For one that leaves, many more will come. "As of today, the round-trip fare on UA is over $14K per person." Wow, I'm really amazed at why the trip is this expensive, hell, I'm surprised your not a BA or AF customer, for that kind of money, you could have been flying the Concorde for the past few years over to London. Granted, you'd have to connect in JFK, but still, if your company pays that much money for travel, then why not live ti up more?

"Now if I know when I spend that much money, I will not be disappointed again, UA is an automatic choice. No advertising, promotion or steep discounting needed." Wow, if 14K is a steep discount, then what do the normal fares to London go for? But for some reason your prices don;t seem to mesh, you claim that "as of today, you would have to pay 14K to London, but at the same time you claim that "If not, then as of today, UA is selling RT tickets for $441 on the same days." Which one is it?

just look at the city pairs.... That is all you need to do, look at the city pairs and realize that if your trip included 8 different cities and they all seem to get farther away from the first? Then that may be your red flag you are on a circle trip.

Ual777, I know that and you know that but tell that to anyone else that if you buy an unrestricted roundtrip FARE LAX-IAD, which gives you the option to make unlimited stopovers, and you decide that on your way back it's easier to fly via DEN instead of via ORD and SFO back to LAX you won't be eligible?

LAX-SFO-ORD-IAD-DEN-LAX (with stop in SFO,ORD and/or DEN) = circle trip
LAX-SFO-ORD-IAD-DEN-LAX (without stops in SFO, ORD, DEN) = round trip
LAX-SFO-ORD-IAD-ORD-SFO-LAX (with stop between LAX-IAD and IAD-LAX) = round trip
LAX-SFO-ORD-IAD-ORD-SFO-LAX (with stop between LAX-IAD or IAD-LAX) = circle trip

BTW stop = stopover (thus next onward flight or layover > 4 hours)

However, you can do this all with the same ticket (a roundtrip FARE LAX-IAD-LAX) unless mileage restrictions don't allow it (which you can see from the fare calculation box).

Lj, weren't you planning on writing 24 hours concerning the definition of a stopover? Everything below 24 hours can be a transfer, although, if I remember correctly, a 2 hour transfer can already be a stopover if there are other planes (of the same or other applicable airlines) departing on the needed route earlier (and, obviously, while staying above or at the required minimum connecting time).

But I have to agree with you - the normal passenger (or even lots of frequent flyers) will have absolutely no clue as to what the definition of a round trip is in comparison to a cicle trip: for the passenger, a ticket that makes him fly from home to somewhere else and back home again is a round trip, regardless of how many stops are made or what route is taken.

LJ,
Put it back on auto pilot, I think were descending.

You don't get it, if you stop in a city for the night it is a stop over. If you stop in a city for 2 hours and change planes? That is called a connection.

LESKOVA,
A 2 HOUR stop over with changing planes is considered a stop over? Who says that? There are a lot of connections that people are transferring to smaller prop or jet service that only provide 3 or 4 flights a day, so you may have a longer layover in a hub city and that isn't a stop over.

LJ,
We don't know what anderjst did, we know the route but not what he did. If he departed LAX for SFO and spent the night, continued onto ORD and spent the night, then went onto IAD? Spent the night? And went home connecting or spending the night in DEN? That is a stop over on all 4 cities. That is a circle trip.

now if he connected in SFO for a ORD flight and a flight to IAD not spending the night in SFO or ORD(had to connect 2 times because IAD flights were full) got to IAD had his meeting. The next day he went out to IAD to hop a flight home, now finding out he has to take a flight connecting in DEN to get home to LAX, then this is a round trip. He didn't want or need to stop in the first 2 cities(SFO,ORD) but had to because the flight to IAD was full, then he is entitled to 1 round trip, not 2 or 3 because he had to go into so many cities to get to point B. I am by no means an authority on this, this how I have always know it to be, if anyone wants to add to this please fill free. But like I said I am no authority just what I have seen in 9 years.

UAL 777 CONTRAIL

Lj, weren't you planning on writing 24 hours concerning the definition of a stopover? Everything below 24 hours can be a transfer, although, if I remember correctly, a 2 hour transfer can already be a stopover if there are other planes (of the same or other applicable airlines) departing on the needed route earlier (and, obviously, while staying above or at the required minimum connecting time).

For US domestic flights the limit is 4 hours. The second part is incorrect. The contract of carriage mentions that, if you depart on a later flight but within 4 hours it's not a stopover but a connection (rule number 180 is UA's contract of carriage).

Technically, you can spend the night in a city and still have no stopover, however that would mean a lot of planning and hoping you interpretation of the contract of carriage (in case of UA it's rule number 180) to the limit.

Once again:

1) a routing is not the distinguishing factor between what is a circle and what is a roundtrip (SFO/LAX/ORD/IAD/LAX/SFO can be just as well a roundtrip as SFO/ORD/IAD/ORD/SFO)

2) stopover or not is not the distinguishing factor between what is a circle and what is a roundtrip

3) the ONLY distinguishing factor between a circle and roundtrip is that a circle trip is a roundtrip with either a mileage surcharge and/or HIP (higher rated intermediate point, which is often the case if you have stopovers BUT not always)

Believe me. I have had several IATA fare trainings.

ZSSNC