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garnetpalmetto
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Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of 7E7

Tue Nov 04, 2003 4:53 pm

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garnetpalmetto
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RE: Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of 7E7

Tue Nov 04, 2003 4:58 pm

One question here - isn't Boeing shooting itself in the foot considering the 7E7 Short seems like it has many of the same characteristics of the 737 Next Gens., only with slightly longer ranges and higher pax capacity? I thought Boeing wanted to guard the 737 as their current moneymaker, or am I just reading this wrong?
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
cfalk
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RE: Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of 7E7

Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:11 pm

The medium-range version which much lighter MTOW should put the 7E7 in a class by itself. The A330 series is way too heavy for efficient short hops. If the 7E7 is 20% more efficient at long ranges, a lightweight 7E7 might be as much as 30% more efficient than any competitor on short-range, high density routes.

We've talked about an A330 NG to compete with the 7E7 in terms of efficiency gains, and have mostly agreed that they cannot match it. The 7E7 "light" just opens up the spread more.

About the 737/7E7 lines cannibalizing each other, I don't think that's a problem. Most companies invest in an aircraft family - not a single type, to optimize maintainance, spare parts, training, etc. If you have a need for planes with between 100 and 190 seats, you can chose the 737. If your routes are more dense and you need between 190 and 250 seats, you go for the 7E7.

By the way, what cockpit will they use? Will there be a common cockpit with either the 737NG or the 777?

Charles

[Edited 2003-11-04 09:19:49]
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of 7E7

Tue Nov 04, 2003 6:56 pm

I find it interesting that the article says the proposed third variant was just announced recently. This was actually announced a couple months ago....except that Boeing said that the short-range 7e7 variant would have pax capacity of 300 seats....more than the actual 7e7LR variant. This plane would appeal to asian carriers that fly large aircraft on short routes throughout Asia.


It appears that Boeing has changed it's mind, as shortening the fuselage indicates that the 300-pax figure is no longer realistic. But there's no indication of the fuselage being narrowbody on the SR variant. Which means we might be talking about a short range widebody.


A bit unconventional, but this early in the game, anything could change.
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of 7E7

Tue Nov 04, 2003 7:12 pm

I think using a seat count to try and determine an airplanes size, is only going to lead to confusion.

From what I've read, there will be one fuselage cross section, and two lengths. The shorter of the two lengths will be the first 2 models to be delivered, each having a different wing. One suitable for 7000+ mile range, the other for 3500.

The differences between 300 and 200 seats is only in how the airplane is configured.... 300 economy seats vs. 200 in a three class layout.

I'm glad to see that Boeing is going to bite the bullet and develop 2 wings for the different missions.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of 7E7

Tue Nov 04, 2003 7:15 pm

I'm glad to see that Boeing is going to bite the bullet and develop 2 wings for the different missions.

So am I. It's kind of exciting, isn't it? Especially from a spotter's perspective.  Smile
 
aviasian
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RE: Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of 7E7

Tue Nov 04, 2003 8:19 pm

This is great news indeed . . . Boeing looks like it is finally going to produce a new totally-new airliner!

It is time to seriously "dream" of the airlines that will launch the Dreamliner!

Looks like JAL and ANA are among them . . .

KC Sim
Bangkok
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of 7E7

Wed Nov 05, 2003 1:19 am

Perhaps BA as well, especially since they're looking at converting their RR-powered 767s into tankers for the RAF since their resale value as passenger craft is rather low
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
planemaker
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RE: Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of 7E7

Wed Nov 05, 2003 4:36 am

The article notes that the "short-range" 7E7 will have the same range as the 767-200 which was considered "long-range" when it was introduced.

Interesting note on how the industry has changed.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
captaingomes
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RE: Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of 7E7

Wed Nov 05, 2003 4:45 am

The 767 is arguably the most flexible aircraft on sale today, both able to fly very short distances economically, as well as flying long range, thin routes not suitable for 777's, 747's or A340's. The 7E7 looks set to take that flexibility and build on it.

Too bad Airbus never went ahead and made an A310NG with a new wing, new flightdeck, avionics, etc. Basically a shortened A330-200 with a new wing.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of 7E7

Wed Nov 05, 2003 5:03 am

"Boeing isn't just planning two versions of its new 7E7 Dreamliner. It's going to develop three, including one -- disclosed yesterday --"

This isnt exactly true... they've been talking about three versions ever since last May.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of 7E7

Wed Nov 05, 2003 5:07 am

Basically a shortened A330-200 with a new wing.

Actually, that was one of its proposals for the defunct A330-500 concept which was proposed to LH & SQ not too long ago; both of whom rejected it.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
transswede
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RE: Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of 7E7

Wed Nov 05, 2003 5:19 am

For those that missed it, the current 7E7 specifications are in this nice looking PDF document: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20031104/7E7v767.pdf

Note that the 7E7 will be offered with two wings, a short range and long range one. The variation in wingspan and MTOW for the short range version indicates that Boeing has not yet decided how much smaller the small wing will be.
 
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STT757
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RE: Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of 7E7

Wed Nov 05, 2003 5:41 am

Interesting, it appears that the short range version will feature winglets similiar to those Aviation Partners produces for 737s.

While from models and renderings I have seen,the base and stretch versions will have the raked wingtips similar to the 767-400.
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captaingomes
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RE: Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of 7E7

Wed Nov 05, 2003 5:55 am

ConcordeBoy, I thought the A330-500 would have the same wing as the 200/300, thus not matching the economics of the A310 on the short haul routes.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
sllevin
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RE: Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of

Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:33 am

The 'short range' version is clearly intended to be a modernized A300 / DC-10 Series 10.

Boeing will hope that as the market gets better, the 7E7-SR would supplant the 757 in the US. In Asia, it would be intended to replace the A300's currently in service.

I've always felt this was a key niche -- that super-range was a bit of Grail-chasing. I'm glad Boeing has finally listened to me (hehe  Smile )

Steve
 
Thrust
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RE: Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of 7E7

Wed Nov 05, 2003 9:29 am

Any word on whether Boeing plans to rename the B7E7 the B787? Or will it just remain 7E7?
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
AvObserver
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RE: Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of 7E7

Wed Nov 05, 2003 9:44 am

Might as well throw this story in here as well...

http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_aviationdaily_story.jsp?id=news/mor11043.xml

Well, I guess these latest articles put to rest all that skepticism we were hearing in here about a short-range variant. Special mention of these statistics.

"Based on the 7E7's weight, Bair said composites would be used for 50% of the plane's structure, followed by aluminum at 20%, 15% titanium, 10% steel and 5% with other materials."

Fully half of this airplane will be composites, that's a major challenge but necessary to get weight down to meet all economy and performance targets. Boeing is going way farther with composites than anyone else ever has for a civil airliner, including Airbus whose A380 will be composed of only 25% of such, due to the need to retain proven alloys as much as possible in the much larger airframe. From my recent A380 progress article post:

"After completing the updating program, the airframe weight distribution still includes no more than 3% glare: the share of other composite materials is 22%, aluminum 61%, and the remaining 24% made mostly of titanium and steel, exclusive of the 20-wheel landing gear supplied by Messier-Dowty and Goodrich."

This is NOT a knock against the A380-far from it. Airbus is doing the right thing by using only what composites are necessary in such a larger airplane. In the much smaller 7E7, Boeing can push the envelope farther and indeed, to achieve their lofty lowering of operating costs projections, they must do so. In both aircraft, we may be seeing the beginnings of a structural revolution that will become the norm in future designs, airplanes made primarily out of composites with relatively little metallics. This bodes well for future fuel-efficiency gains across both makers' product lines.

 
behramjee
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RE: Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of 7E7

Wed Nov 05, 2003 10:04 am

This new shorter range version of the B 7E7 flying upto 3500nm is how many hrs in flying time? For example how far is 3500nm...give me an example of 2 cities or a route flown nonstop in the 3000-3500nm range please.

Also this version is ideal for Japanese domestic flights, US-CAN transcon flights, regional flights within the Far East for the Asian big boys (major airlines), ideal for long-medium haul Australian and trans-tasman flights as well as regional flights within the Middle East and from there to the Indian subcontinent.

European airlines will mainly be interested in the BASIC and STRETCH models I bet as will African and Latin American airlines.

If this aircraft was released in the mid 1990s then we wouldnt be seeing as many A 330s/340s that there are today because this aircraft would have severly curtailed their sales.

By the way how many B 767s have seen sold since the introduction of the A 330 and 340 to the world?
 
ContinentalFan
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RE: Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of

Wed Nov 05, 2003 10:27 am

Behramjee...

Transcon flights across the US are around 3000mi, around 6hrs.
 
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STT757
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RE: Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of 7E7

Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:31 am

The short range version using the shorter wing with the "upward" winglets will have much less of a foot print on airport tarmacs, the aircraft will be able to squeeze into smaller gate areas with 737s, A320s etc..
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
sllevin
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RE: Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of

Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:47 am

3500nm actually allows JFK-Western Europe. Pretty similar to the limitations of the A300-600.  Smile

Steve
 
desertjets
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RE: Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of 7E7

Wed Nov 05, 2003 12:00 pm

Don't confuse NM with SM.

Here's a little map that will give some perspective as to where the basic short range 7E7 could fly... ranges from Newark and London Heathrow.

EWR%0D%[email protected]LHR%0D%0A&PATH-COLOR=red&PATH-UNITS=mi&SPEED-GROUND=&SPEED-UNITS=kts&RANGE-STYLE=shaded&RANGE-COLOR=black&MAP-STYLE=&ETOPS=180>

Bah... doesn't look like the link wants to work. Long and short of it. East coast to northern South America and Western Europe, everything in between.

Western Europe, London, to northeastern US, eastern and maritime Canada, Northern Africa and middle east.

Middle east, Dubai, to almost all of Europe, almost all of Africa, except far western and southern Africa, all of Asia except Indonesia.

[Edited 2003-11-05 04:04:13]
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RayChuang
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RE: Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of 7E7

Wed Nov 05, 2003 1:44 pm

I think the lite version of the 7E7 was designed with not only for JL and NH, but very likely with input from LH and SQ, both of which want a true A310/A300B replacement but find the A330-200 too big a plane for that purpose.

I expect Boeing to officially unveil the 787 moniker by mid-December 2003 with the signing of Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) papers by JL, NH, and SQ that will start the project. Expect before the end of 2004 that we'll see orders from CO and DL to buy the plane, too.
 
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s.p.a.s.
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RE: Boeing Announces Plans To Build 3 Versions Of 7E7

Thu Nov 06, 2003 12:03 am

DesertJets:

Here we go mate:

London


Newark


Singapore


Cheers

RS
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