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steph001
Topic Author
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Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Thu Nov 13, 2003 12:54 am

Fairchild Dornier used to build the Do328 both as a turboprop and as a jet. I think the idea was wonderful and a possible solution to the debate turboprop vs regional jet, since an airline could acquire the same plane as turboprop for shorter routes and regional jet for longer routes. As far as I know, they were the only turboprop manufacturer building their plane also as a jet. Why are the other turboprops offered only as turboprop and not as a regional jet?

Cheers

Steph
 
planemaker
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:06 am

The 328 is a fairly unique aircraft in that not too much redesign was required to come up with a jet version. Typically, a new wing is required for the higher airspeed of jet powered aircraft but for reasons of cost and time the turboprop wing was kept with relatively minor changes (turboprop sales have declined as passengers showed a clear preference for regional jets and the company didn't want to miss out on the "boom"). One trade-off in keeping the same wing is that the 328Jet is not as fast as it could be.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
CO2BGR
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:25 am

The ERJ uses the same fuselage and front section as the EMB-120 but other than that it is a whole new beast.
There are too many self indulgent weiners in this town with too much bloody money" Randal Raines- Gone in 60 Seconds
 
azmd80
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:28 am

In old magazine I've found picture of a ATR 42 (or 72) jet.
I think that the D328 was from the origin set up to use either propeller and jet. For this reasons neither of the version of this aircraft are optimized:
JET speed and load are not at the best ranking for the category;
TURBOPROP are too heavy and to expansive.

Hi
 
planemaker
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:37 am

AZMD80:

The 328 prop version was indeed optimized as a turbo prop and has a high speed wing design for a turbo prop.

A jet version was never planned because when the 328 was first envisioned there was only the 50 pax CRJ on the market and the RJ "revolution" was not even on the horizon (let alone the sub-50 pax RJ development.)

CO2BGR:

While the EMB-120 has a similar look the fuse is not the same as the ERJ.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
steph001
Topic Author
Posts: 297
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Re:Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:04 am

@Planemaker: Thanks.

AZMD80: ATR jet? Where was that?
 
planemaker
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:15 am

The ATR jet was just a proposal that later morphed into the AIR jet (low wing, rear engined two pax versions proposed) when BAe Regional Aircraft joined regional aircraft marketing forces temporarily with ATR in Tolouse. At the time, everyone seemed to have a regional jet proposal on the market (even Indonesia). In any case, the project was abandoned.


Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:30 am

The ATR-82 was to be the jet, but it developed into the BAe-146 that we know of today. (ARJ-85)
Puhdiddle
 
steph001
Topic Author
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Re:Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:47 am

I was also wondering whether if would make sense (both from economic and technical points of view) to build a jet version of the Saab 2000? What do You think?
 
planemaker
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:11 am

BR715-A1-30:

You are a little off on your post. The proposed ATR-82 was a turboprop and had nothing to do with the BAe-146. The AI(R) jet was called the "Airjet" and had a 70 pax and 100 pax version.

The origins of the 146 was in the early 1970's and it was called the HS-146. After BAe aquired the program when HSA was nationalized it was renamed the BAe-146. First flight of the 146 was in 1981.

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
SuperDash
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:20 am

The 328 Jet may be unique, but it is extremely slow and from what I hear, horribly unreliable. I think the Q400 operates as fast or faster than the 328 Jet. I thought the 328 was a horrible plane when Horizon flew it. The jet engines can't help and can only cost the operators a bunch more money in higher costs. I wouldn't encourage any other manufactures to copy this failed experiment.
 
azmd80
Posts: 282
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:27 am

Steph001

I think the a jet version of the saab2000 isn't intersting:
saab 2000 is one of the speedest props in commercial use;
saab had went out of the commercial market;
saab 2000 is an enlarged version of the saab 340, so i tnink other strech to allow to carry more people isn't possible.

hi
 
planemaker
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:31 am

Steph001:

Interestingly, Saab did offer a 40-seat RJ concept in the 1960's: the Saab 1072. It never got off the drawing board.

FYI, Saab marketed the Saab 2000 as having RJ performance - speed and cabin comfort, but with turboprop economics. It is a bit ironic that Bombardier is now using the same Saab 2000 arguments for the Q400 even though they mocked them when the CRJ was up against the Saab 2000.

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
mandala499
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:47 am

The ERJ145 originally was to be a lenghtened E-120 with engines on top of the wings! It was a minimal development concept in those days...

Then after the Embraer-123 Vector, an E120 nose with tail mounted prop pusher and T-Tail and a new wing, the ERJ145 as we know it today was born!

They came out with the ERJ145, then 140 and 135... Well, if they need a 20 seater one then just change the E-123 engines with jets Big grin

Sometimes, I still somehow think that the ERJ145 family is just a stretched Emb123 with jet engines instead of T-props..

What do you guys think ?

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
planemaker
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Thu Nov 13, 2003 5:06 am

Mandala499:

A small correction to the Vector designation you provide: it is the CBA-123 Vector. The program was a joint venture between Embraer (Brazil) and FMA (Argentina), hence the B & A in the name.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
mandala499
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Thu Nov 13, 2003 5:49 am

Yes, thanks for that Planemaker... I was just checking my book collection to check on the designation! CBA123 Vector... Nowadays I call it the ERJ wannabe! LOL

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
planemaker
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:18 am

More outlandish than an ERJ-123 "Vector Jet" is a photoshop composite picture I saw of an "ERJ-125" in FedEX livery: a shortened ERJ-135 with a single AE3007A1E turbofan from the 145XR. Certainly an interesting fantasy cargo concept for FedEx Caravan pilots.  Smile


Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
USAFHummer
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:33 am

A case of this in the GA world is the Adam A500 and A700...the A500 is admittedly is not a turboprop but rather has piston engines...the A700 is essentially the A500 with a slightly lengthened fuselage to accomodate a lav, and powered by jets instead of piston engines...

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
steph001
Topic Author
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Re:Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Thu Nov 13, 2003 5:30 pm

AZMD80: maybe the jet version would be interesting from psychological points of view, if people tend for some reasons rather to fly jets than turboprops. Also the fact that Saab2000 is a fast turboprop would make its redesign easier, or am I wrong?
 
RIX
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:31 am

Slightly off-topic: AFAIK, the first ever turboprop was a transformed Gloster Meteor. By the other hand, the first ever turboprop airliner had a test jet version, though with two jet engines instead of four turboprop. Wasn't it the second Viscount ever built? At least, one of the very first ones, the 600-series... It was damaged beyond repair (I think) and never flew again but if it did - could it be the first jet airliner instead of Comet? It was said on this forum that the metal fatigue problems with Comet were the result of overall lack of pressurized cabin experience by de Havilland while Vickers had never had this kind of troubles. In this case, jet Viscount might be way more successful (but apparently on different market, closer to today's short-haul). Any information/guesses why after one particular aircraft was broken no new ones were made?
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:40 am

A case of this in the GA world is the Adam A500 and A700...the A500 is admittedly is not a turboprop but rather has piston engines...the A700 is essentially the A500 with a slightly lengthened fuselage to accomodate a lav, and powered by jets instead of piston engines...

Interestingly enough Greg, have you seen one before? I was at my home airport a few weeks ago and the prototype A500 (N501AX) came in. You're right...it uses twin TSIO-550's. Man, it sure does sound like a turboprop though. It was a very cool airplane.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
Guest

RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:51 am

This has been a very interesting thread. Personally, I can't think of any examples of converted turboprop aircraft designs that were successful. The aerodynamics involved are just to complex. Most turboprop aircraft are not designed for high speed flight and don't employ high speed optimized airfoils. Hanging jet engines on an airframe with a "low speed" wing has never make marketing sense. Who would want to fly around on a wing with an Mmo of .55M?

Jetguy
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Fri Nov 14, 2003 2:25 pm

SuperDash, the 328-100/110s (un-)reliability had to do with a missing product support from Dornier at that time. It got better under Fairchild-Dornier but was still worlds apart from premier class. AvCraft (Dornier) is now trying to make it better and will establish customer service centers around the world (Europe, North-America [=current AvCraft facility], Latin-America, Africa, South-East Asia). And they are currently re-designing the top 4 or 5 components which are making the most troubles and account for 98% of the problems. Thus it seems they are taking customer service quite seriously.

The only two airlines I can think about which are operating the Dornier 328-100/110 and -300 (328JET) alongside are Gandalf Airlines (Italy) and Welcome Air (Austria).

Jetguy, the 328JET has already outsold the Dornier 328 turboprop and is very likely to continue this. However, you´ve raised quite a good question with the speed issue. I don´t think it really matters if you fly with m.55 or m.60 when you´re feeding a large airport. On a 60-minute flight it is very unlikely that you will fly longer than a few minutes with maximum cruise, you will spend a lot more time climbing and decending - and there a high-wing configuration makes a lot more sense due to the performance.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders *Just updated*
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A359, A380,AT4,AT7,B712, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B752/3, B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,... 330.860 miles and counting.
 
Guest

RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Fri Nov 14, 2003 2:45 pm

Flying-Tiger...
I was never very impressed with the 328 turboprop - I rode on Horizon Airlines' first 328 revenue flight and it was withdrawn from service shortly afterwards. Regardless, assuming the 328 series are successful, one aircraft over a 55 year period is hardly proof of a valid concept. Again, people don't buy jets to fly slow. At those stage lengths and speeds, propellers always have and probably always will make the most sense economically.

Jetguy
 
USAFHummer
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Fri Nov 14, 2003 2:52 pm

I haven't yet JBird...I'd really like to though...their facilities are at APA which is about 50 miles from here...if I had a car I'd go down there in a flash...alas, I dont so its hard to get there lol...

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
L-188
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Fri Nov 14, 2003 2:57 pm

There was a proposal a couple of years ago to put jet motors on a new build Aerostar. I don't know if they got any farther then that. It looked like a little hot rod.

But the ultimate is the C-123. It was originally designed by Chase as a glider. The Air Force originally compared two versions, one with four jets in paired pods from the B-47 and a version with two R-2800's in it. They took the Piston powered version.

Then in the late 70's/early 1980's one was converted to fly with Allison Turboprops from the C-130.

The C-123 remains the only aircraft to this day to ever flown as a glider, piston, jet and turboprop.


The DC-3 is close with Glider, piston and turboprop versions. Just needs to have a jet powered version to meet that record.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
steph001
Topic Author
Posts: 297
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:21 pm

Re:Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Fri Nov 14, 2003 6:37 pm

Hi guys, since customers tend to prefer RJ's to turboprops even if some turboprops are not as cramped as some RJ's, do you think airlines would be ready to buy a jet version of a turboprop, even if it doesn't get much faster, only for psychological/marketing reasons? Although slight off topic I remember the slogan 4 engines 4 long haul that was (is?) on Virgin's A340's. As far as I know the ranges of the A340's are compared to those of the B777, which has only "2 engines 4 long haul..". It seems to me that you could build the A340 with 2 redesigned engines and still get the same range it has now. So psychology/Marketing has something to do when purchasing airplanes, why not in the case turboprop as jet?
 
Guest

RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Sat Nov 15, 2003 12:20 am

Personally, I believe that Steph001 hit the nail square on the head. While economically, jets don't make a lot of sense on certain routes, they make perfect sense from a marketing and passenger psychology point of view. I wouldn't be surprised to see RJs making commuter turboprops a thing of the past - the way turboprops killed the commuter piston market.
 
ouboy79
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:00 am

I'm shocked no one brought up the planes to re-engine Jetstream 31s. Now those would have made for an interesting looking plane.
 
redngold
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:44 am

I actually prefer the 328JET over both the Dash-8 and the Saab 340. I liked the Do-328 turboprop already and the jet was very comfortable every time I rode on it.

What's so bad about the 328JET's performance? The thing can take off like a shot -- I've seen the Skyway pilots push it near 4,000 ft./min. at takeoff!

redngold
Up, up and away!
 
B2707SST
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Sat Nov 15, 2003 10:47 am

According to Bombardier, the 37-seat Q200 cruises at 290 knots and the 50-seat CRJ-200 normally does 425 knots. The 70-seat Q400 cruises at 360 knots, but is almost twice the size of the 328. The 32-seat 328 turboprop cruises at 335 knots, which was upped to about 400 knots on the 328JET and would have gone slightly higher for the 428JET 40-seat stretch, due to a modified and enlarged wing.

The 328JET also has shorter field lengths than any competing RJ, and allegedly has more passenger space and better ergonomics than the Bombardier and Embraer offerings as well. Having never flown any of them, I can't comment directly.

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
flyf15
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Sat Nov 15, 2003 11:04 am

Suprised nobody has mentioned the Rockwell Commander/Turbo Commander/Jet Commander. Not the exact same airframe, wing, etc for all 3...but close enough.  Big thumbs up


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Guest

RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Sat Nov 15, 2003 11:16 am

The piston, turboprop and jet powered Commanders do have similar (but not identical) systems, but the propeller (piston and turboprop) driven aircraft use different airfoils than the Jet Commander and in reality are MUCH more different than they are alike. They were all designed by Ted Smith of B-26 fame so you would expect a certain level of comparison. The Commanders are excellent aircraft and were probably way ahead of their times. You can still see vestiges of the old Commander in the newest Gulfstream G-200, namely the hydraulic system - it still uses Skydrol. There are also some vestages of the old design in the electrical systems. As they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Jetguy
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Sat Nov 15, 2003 11:46 am

"There was a proposal a couple of years ago to put jet motors on a new build Aerostar. I don't know if they got any farther then that. It looked like a little hot rod."

Following up on L-188's post and Jetguy information on the designs of the prolific Ted Smith, the Aerostar 600/601/601P was also a Ted Smith design which was intended to be a light jet from the start but didn't "take-off" since there were no suitable engines at the time (1970's).

Following is a link to the company that is hoping to certify an Aerostar Jet:

http://www.aerostarjet.com/index.html


[Edited 2003-11-15 03:50:27]
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
POSITIVE RATE
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Sat Nov 15, 2003 12:08 pm

I've seen a pic of a jet powered Super King Air 200- i think it was the only one ever converted. I can't see the point though as the King Air wing would have a pretty low MMO.
 
Guest

RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Sat Nov 15, 2003 2:39 pm

The 328Jet is a true RJ, albeit a modified turboprop. While carriers like to stretch the routes to over 1,000 miles these days and supplement mainline, the 328 was designed to go head to head with a turboprop in short haul routes up to about 350 NMs. The speed on those routes is irrelevant, unless the competition maxes out a 280Kts. That's where the 328Jet has an advantage.

It has it's quirks and hopefully AvCraft can resolve them and get this baby back into the market. It's the true replacement for the EMB-120, SAAB 340, J31/41 and BE-1900.

FD's error was not making this an RJ to begin with. It was on the drawing board when the -100 was in development, but engines were not available and demand wasn't there and they balked at the risk. It's really too bad. We might be flying 328Jets and 428Jets on a regular basis instead of CRJ's and ERJ's. The 328Jet would have come to market in about 1995.
 
steph001
Topic Author
Posts: 297
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:21 pm

RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:44 pm

Does some of you know if the Embraer RJ are much more cheaper than the Fairchild Dornier at their time? I guess wages are still lower in Brazil than in Germany, but could this make a difference in the plane's final price?
 
planemaker
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Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:59 am

In theory the ERJ-135 is cheaper but you never know what price a manufacturer is going to offer in a competetive tender. I do know that the Dash 8-200 and -300 prices were matched by Embraer.

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
steph001
Topic Author
Posts: 297
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:21 pm

Re: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:57 pm

Planemaker: do competitors offer also prices below their production costs?
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
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RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Tue Nov 18, 2003 3:40 am

Steph001: When they do, most times it is not on purpose. In basic terms, the manufacturer costs out a program over a minimum of "X" number of aircraft sold to calculate breakeven and unit cost. So, if aircraft sales don't meet minimum sales mumbers you see manufacturers having to write-down program costs. On the other hand, to induce sales, there have been sales that on paper are below costs.

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
steph001
Topic Author
Posts: 297
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:21 pm

Re: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Tue Nov 18, 2003 6:52 pm

Planemaker, thanks. There was also a question in this topic

https://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1266481/

and in this one

https://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1259169/

about operating costs of RJ's versus turboprops in general and especially on short routes. So far we have only a reply with information from Bombardier comparing the Q400 and their CRJ's. You seem to know very much about the technical side of planes, we would appreciate if you could help us with an answer.

Thanks

Steph
 
Guest

RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Wed Nov 19, 2003 12:34 am

In theory the ERJ-135 is cheaper but you never know what price a manufacturer is going to offer in a competetive tender.

The 328Jet list price was cheaper by a couple of million, but it's unit costs were a little higher. On flights up to 300 NM, they were even. Beyond that the 135 was cheaper. The 328's better climb performance gets it up to altitude quicker. That sucker can climb.
 
steph001
Topic Author
Posts: 297
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:21 pm

RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Wed Nov 19, 2003 1:25 am

So a plane that was both RJ and Turpoprop could be more effective than RJ's on very short routes. Do you think that there may be some interest in producing a RJ on a turboprop basis for very short routes with high frequency?
 
Trident
Posts: 477
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2000 4:49 am

RE: Same Plane As Jet And Turboprop

Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:19 am

Vickers did convert one of the Viscount prototypes to fly with two Rolls Royce Tay turbojets. It was purely a test bed aircraft and there was never any intention to put it into production. Even earlier, Vickers had converted a piston engined Viking to run on two Rolls Royce Nenes.

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