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DIJKKIJK
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Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 2:36 am

The Bristol Brittania was probably designed only for the BOAC ?

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while most Russian a/c were designed only for Aeroflot


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Have there been any other airplanes which have been designed keeping mainly one airline in mind?
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Trident
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 2:46 am

Up to the 1970s, most British airliners were designed with one of the national airlines in mind -

Armstrong Whitworth Argosy, De Havilland DH66 Hercules, Handley Page HP42 Heracles, Armstrong Whitworth Ensign, Short C Class Flying Boat - All designed for Imperial Airways.

Vickers VC-10, Handley Page Hermes, Bristol Britannia, De Havilland Comet 1 - BOAC
Vickers Viscount, De Havilland DH121 Trident, Airspeed Ambassador, - BEA.

Even the BAC 1-11 was tailored closely to a requirement set out by British United Airways.


 
Vimanav
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 2:53 am

The B707 and the DC8 were both launched on the strength and push of one man - Mr. Juan Trippe of Pan Am.

I could readily think of the B747 on which Boeing made a huge gamble after losing their bid for a very large capacity military transport aircraft to Lockheed (C-5). Juan Trippe once again stepped in with an order for 21 (?) effectively launching the programme, though others joined in later. Similarly the B747SP was also the result of a specific Pan Am request for a very long range aircraft which could extend their trans-Pacific reach.

rgds//Vimanav
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 2:56 am

Lieve Dijkkijk -
xxx
I honestly doubt that airplane manufacturers design airplane for strictly one airline, they all hope to sell many, to many other airlines, but, it may end that it very much looks that way...
xxx
The Brittania was mostly acquired by BOAC, but there were a few other operators who had them, in Africa and North America. Soviet airplanes were mostly acquired for use by Aeroflot, but many countries of the then Soviet "block" acquired them as well... Eastearn Europe, North Korea, China, SE Asia, some even in Africa, then Cuba... I see a few old Antonovs in Peru.
xxx
I think of the DC4 conversion to ATL98, for Channel Air Bridge to carry cars.
Pretty much like the Bristol 170 was doing.
The Canadair CC109 was designed for the RCAF, but eventually sold many as swing-tail CL44 versions, to cargo carriers... Loftleidir Icelandic was the only airline operating the passenger versions of the CL44...
One more recent example is the Dassault Mercure, used only by Air Inter...
But I am sure that Dassault tried to sell it to other airlines.
xxx
Happy contrails  Smile
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modesto2
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 2:59 am

I don't know if it's safe to say that the 764 was designed for Delta, but DL played an integral role in the development of this aircraft. It has replaced the TriStar and DL is only one of two operators (the other - CO).
 
Ealsys1
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:25 am

Does anyone remember the Delta III concept? Delta created their "dream" aircraft with their own specifications including even the shape of the wing. Did Boeing take this concept and fit the 757 to it?? I remember reading about this in Air Transport World in the late 70's.
 
Bluewave 707
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:32 am

The 747SR and the 747-400D were mainly built for two customers: Japan Airlines and All Nippon Airways. Maximum capacity exchanged for less range.

Could anyone imagine using a 747-400D for short US routes like LAX-SFO, JFK-IAD, or LAX-LAS?
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dtwclipper
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:34 am

The Brittania was also used by El AL, it was the first new aircraft purchase for the airline, and they did very well with in on the North Atlantic run in the late 1950's.

The DC-10 & L1011 both stem from a AA requirement.
The 727 is a three holer as EA required it at the time.
Further examples might include the B314 and the Martin 135 built specifically for Pan Am

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pilotpip
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:49 am

Actually, the 727 was designed by Boeing to kill two request birds with one stone. Eastern required an aircraft that could get out of the very short runways at La Guardia(I think) and United needed a plane that could handle the high density altitudes of Denver. Both wanted an aircraft that could do this and service short haul routes. Something that couldn't be done effectively yet. Boeing designed one aircraft that could serve both airlines' needs.

The 727 was almost a complete comprimise between the two. Eastern's request was for a 2 engine design similiar to the DC-9, United wanted a scaled down version of the 707 with 4 engines. The reason this worked out was the wing. High lift devices such as the leading edge slats, fowler flaps, and triple slotted flaps in the back increased the wing's lift by almost 66% for take off and landing.
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futureualpilot
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:53 am

I'd say the 764 was designed mainly for Dl and CO to replace the L1011 and DC-10, but was/is available to other airlines if they want them.
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bmacleod
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:59 am

The DC-10 & L1011 both stem from a AA requirement

Dtwclipper,

I don't recall AA having any interest in the L1011.

The L1011 was officially designed for Delta with Eastern coming in second.
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
sllevin
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 4:16 am

Most aircraft were deeply influenced by just a couple of airlines. However, we seem to stick the moniker "designed for a specific airline" when a particular aircraft is worked around specifications and then falls flat in sales.

I think the classic examples would be:

Trident for BEA
Convair 990 for AA
(you might be able to stick the Convair 880 for TWA/Howard Hughes in there)
Dassult's Mercure for Air Inter
VC10 for BOAC

There are certainly others but my mind is still suffering from turkey overload.  Smile

Steve
 
TimeForFlight
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 4:26 am

You're all forgetting about Pan Am... Most notably, the 747 was designed to Juan Trippe's specifications. When he guaranteed a purchase, production commenced. Look where we are today...
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 4:26 am

Bmacleod,

The requirement from AA went to both Lockheed and MD.

See : The Sporty Game, by John Newhouse. 1982.
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ual777
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 4:31 am

The L1011 design stemmed from AA and UA. They increased the MGTOW because American wanted it. However, AA went with the DC-10 for one reason or another, and the only reason UA bought the -10 was because their CEO thought if they didn't, then Douglas might fold shop. He thought this would be bad for aviation and America.

Lets also not forget the Boeing 247. Built just for UA.
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air2gxs
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 4:37 am

B757PF & B767PF were made, I believe to UPS spec.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 4:43 am

UAL777,

You are right of course, the UA req was in there as well. I believe the DC-10/L1011 req was originally for a twin widebody that could operate out of LGA and do trans con as well. It developed into the tri jet because of the available engine power in the late 1960's. This is why both aircraft came out with almost identically specs.

The DST was also an AA req. Forcing Douglas to widen the fuselage of the DC-2, giving birth to the DC-3.

Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
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yyz717
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 4:46 am

DC-9-20/40 for SAS.
DC-10-40 for NW.
MD-88 for DL.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
gr8slvrflt
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 4:51 am

The Sikorsky S-40 and S-42; the Martin M-130; and the Boeing 314 were all designed specifically for Pan American. In fact, Pan Am was the only buyer except for a few 314s re-sold to BOAC. The original Lockheed Constellation was built for TWA. The Boeing 247 for United. The DC-2 for TWA. All these designs had very little input from other customers.
I work for Southwest, but the views expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Southwest.
 
CanadianNorth
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 4:51 am

Wasnt the 737-100 originally to be a 80 seater give or take a bit but ended up closer to a 100 seater because of Lufthansa?


CanadianNorth
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rjpieces
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 5:05 am

767-400 was designed for DL. AA,CO,UA were expected to join in and buy, only CO did. AA opted for 777-200ER, UA for 777-200.

Now, the 7E7 Short Range is to be made specifically for JAL and ANA.
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Heavierthanair
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 5:08 am

G'day

EALSYS1, you are right, at the time Delta came up with a specification for a 150 seater advanced technology aircraft. The Thing has actually been developed along the lines of these specifications and some 3000+ copies have been sold. That aircraft is known as the A320. Delta never bought it though it met all specs. Delta at the time elected to go with a less capable version of the venerable DC 9 called the MD 80 series and later the beefed up MD 88, all to be replaced with 737's now.

So much for history

Cheers

Peter
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Heavierthanair
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 6:04 am

G'day

Another that comes to mind, the A 310 was built along specifications of LH, SR, KL and AF. Efficient short range high capacity for the routes the narrowbodies were too small. Problem was, the traveling public wanted more frequent services and not bigger planes. Seems this was overlooked by the airlines as well as the manufacturer. Though the plane met original specs it was either replaced by the longer range -300 with marginal performance or dumped altogether.

Boeing at he time was smarter, more experienced, luckier or all in handling their clientele. At the time they sold them what they believe they wanted (the 767-200) and at the same time designed-in something that potentially covered future and more realistic requirements (the 767-300ER).

The Bus company obviously has learned their lessons. Anybody thus wonder why Airbus is hesitant to truly market an A300 replacement now for as long as there is no real competitive pressure? That replacement may well turn out to be an A300 with the standard FBW and other NG systems. Thus updating the A300 involves some expenditures which none is ready to pay for at this time. I guess a wait and see approach will pay off long term.

Another of those thoughts

Cheers

Peter
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 6:35 am

767-400 was designed for DL. AA,CO,UA were expected to join in and buy, only CO did. AA opted for 777-200ER, UA for 777-200.

You have it backwards...

Boeing wanted the USA airlines to replace their D10s/L10s with 772As.

UA was the only one to do so. DL & CO used their newfound "freedom" to dangle the impending A332 in front of Boeing... so it eventually gave them what they wanted. AA decided to 1up UA by ordering 772ER, instead of 772A.
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mlsrar
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 6:40 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, or if I skimmed past a post about this, but wasn't the 747SP more or less constructed at the request of QF and PA?
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VC-10
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 7:07 am

the BAC 1-11 was tailored closely to a requirement set out by British United Airways

The book "British Aircraft Corporation - A History" written by a manager at BAC say that the 1-11 was based on a world-wide market survey.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 7:12 am

wasn't the 747SP more or less constructed at the request of QF and PA?

The SP was launched based on a PA order for 10. QF ordered a pair much later into the program.

The 747SR was built for a JAL order. ANA later bought it also.

The rare 747-100B was built to a Saudi order.
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VIflyer
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 7:24 am

The EMB-140 (EMB-135KL) was primarily built for AE so that it could fall under the old scope clauses that AMR and AA's pilots union had that limited all 50 and 50+ jet aircraft that could be flown.
Ironically since the scope cause has been amended, now allowing AE to operate unlimited 50 seat aircraft (now the clause is for 51 and more seats) AE converted it's 140 orders back to 145s.
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electraBob
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 7:42 am

The Vickers Vanguard was also evolved from a series of design studies to meet a BEA requirement. The first North American airline to fly the Vanguard was Trans Canada Airlines in 1961.
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bmacleod
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Wed Dec 03, 2003 3:26 am

So if I'm not mistaken the 733 (737-300) was designed for Southwest?
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
EZYcrew
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Wed Dec 03, 2003 3:28 am

And there's the A319 with 2 overwing exits esp. designed for easyJet.
 
ssides
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RE: Airplanes Designed For A Specific Airline

Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:56 am

...AE converted it's 140 orders back to 145s.

Are you sure about this? I had heard that Eagle has already started giving back many of its -145s because it likes the -140s so much better.

But this is a great explanation for why the -140s were even developed. I always had a hard time believing that there were distinct 37-seat, 44-seat and 50-seat markets for RJs.
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