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LambertMan
Topic Author
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Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:54 am

Be a few equipment chaanges on AA routes (didn't look at AX routes except for the mix routes like BOS, MSY, LGA) inovlving..
STL-DFW, 3 of the 752 flights will go to S80's
STL-ORD, one of the S80 flights will go to a 752
STL-LAX, the current four 752 flights will all be changed to S80's
STL-PHX, the one flight will go to a 752
STL-LAS, both S80's will go to 752's
STL-MIA, 2 752's will go to one 752 and one S80
STL-MSY, will temporarily go to one S80 for about a month, then it will get the ER4 back
STL-MCO, 2 S80's will go to 2 752's
STL-FLL, will change from one S80 to a 752
STL-BOS, will change from 2 RJ's, one S80 and one 738 to two S80's and 3 RJ's
I've been hearing from the airport that STL-SAN, will be upgraded to either two flights daily in the future or one 752, nothing in the scheds yet but I've been keeping an eye on the flight lately and it seems to go out nearly full. I've also been keeping an eye on some of the routes and I noticed that SAN, BWI (espeically), DFW, ORD, LAX, PHX (low yield), RSW, FLL, LAS (low yield), and MCO (low yield) all are doing well. Those are just the flights I noticed in particular where the flights are going out pretty full. It seems more and more to me that AA will stay with a presence like the current one they have. I know those LF's don't mean much, but if they are going out pretty full that is some good news. Big thumbs up
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:56 am

Curious to know where you get your information.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
LambertMan
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:01 am

I live in a neighborhood close to the airport w/ several pilots, one of them is my dad's best friend, my golfing friend also. Yes I know they are down the line but its fun to talk about the rumors anyways. If you are talking about the routes there is an AA seat map online that you can check how full the flights are going out.

[Edited 2003-12-10 20:02:51]
 
nwa man
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:10 am

It's important to remember here that a 752 on a route might be more of a downgrade... the STL-LAX flights are high-yield, while the PHX, LAS, and other routes are low-yield... AA can fill them up out of the Lou', but with mostly leisure pax.


N-Dub
Create your own luck.
 
haveric
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:19 am

Think PHL will get mainline back?
 
LambertMan
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:27 am

EHhhh....I'm kinda thinking that WN will eventually offer PHL-STL and that will put an end to even considering taking that route back to mainline. I haven't really payed attention to any of the RJ routes or how they are doing, but I kinda doubt it. It seems like AA will pretty much stick w/ the mainline destinations they currently have and rotate A/C between those cities. However, if a city were to come back to being mainline I would guess it would be PHL, ATL, EWR, DCA or DEN. Those were the five destinations that I thought would stay 2X or 1X S80 or even in DEN's case 2X 752 after the cutbacks, but hey, I'm thankful for what we still have. However, if DEN would have stayed mainline I'm pretty sure we wouldnt be seeing those awesome F9 birds. Big thumbs up

[Edited 2003-12-10 20:28:07]
 
ramerinianair
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:46 am

Just curious what do you do at STL?
But pertaining to the topic, Do you think that there will be an increase in the destinations offered in and out of STL by AA in the next year? If so when and to where? I also would want to know if the service to STL will be hindered by WN growth or do you think that WN will take too long in deciding where and when to expand into STL opening up the oppertunity for AA to regain a larger market-share in STL.

Thanks,
Steve
W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
 
LambertMan
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:57 am

I don't do anything, I go to college. However, my neighborhood is close to the airport and there are pilots, groundworkers ( a few are left from AA cutbacks), administration people, etc., I golf with some of em. I usually go home on weekends and I'll play golf w/ a few of them or see them outside and talk aviation! I guess seeing those planes overhead got me interested in aviation. I'm kinda just hoping that we'll have AA and WN keep their current levels of service and have US go mainline, and B6 and FL enter the market. However, WN did add FLL and LAX and that could affect the LAX and FLL routes to an extent yield wise. WN may take awhile if they are going to add routes, but AA won't jump back into a big op at STL while WN is deciding, they don't want another unprofitable STL. If you are talking new destinations by anyone, I know Griggs said he would begin talking to international carriers in that STL biz journal article, but I have no clue as to who they would be talking to.
 
RJNUT
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:11 am

Worldspan shows that EVV gets dropped and CVG got downgraded to "Junkstreams"(i personally like the aircraft) and XNA temporarily gets downgraded to J41's and MSN gets one additional R.T. and SGF gets an ATR42 to supplement its J41's
 
ssides
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:14 am

... and have US go mainline

Forgive me, I haven't been to STL in over a year now (I'm a frequent AA flier, of course) and am ignorant ... is US Airways all-RJ at STL now?
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
LambertMan
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:21 am

Yep, Ssides. I'm surprised we can't support a 733 to CLT or PHL, however I would like US to go mainline but the chances are slim to none from what I'm told on this board by the fellow USAir'ers. Once you are RJ on US there is no return. (haha) Big thumbs up
 
penguinflies
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:30 am

STL-LAX high yeild? I was told something different a few months ago by a management pilot that LAX, MCO, JFK were routes that TWA/AA could fly and never make a dime on. They flew the 757 on most these routes so that they would lost less money than other equip.
 
CactusA319
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:30 am


Looks like they're reasigning the 75's to the leisure routes, as per AA's current plans.

 
ssides
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:34 am

LambertMan --

I would attribute the lack of US Airways mainline service to US Airways, not to Lambert. Of course there will always be those who say US missed a great opportunity for a new hub at STL, but there's no way they could have pulled that off given their current financial situation.

Basically, US Airways service deteriorates as you approach the Mississippi River. They hardly have anything out of IAH and DFW, nothing out of AUS, nothing out of SAT. Do they still operate that quasi-mini-hub at MCI?
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
LambertMan
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:42 am

They just added MCI-DCA again which is 2x daily to my belief. To my knowledge MCI has mainline to all 3 of the hubs, something like 3X daily to each one w/ a mix of 733/319 A/C.
 
blhp68
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:23 am

I heard a rumor that AA might be starting RJ's from MCI-STL. Apparently all of the Frequent Fliers out of MCI are complaining about lack of service to STL and therefore American Eagle might step in and fill the void. Not really sure why they eliminated that route completely anyway?

 
Mizzou65201
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:31 am

Yes, and US still has the commuter hub at MCI as well.

US did the same thing at MKE earlier this year (or was it late last year? I forget already) 733 and 734 to PIT and CLT dumped for Mesa and Chautauqua CRJ and ERJ runs.

Still hoping for ERD on AA Eagle DFW-COU/ORD-COU...

 
Trvlr
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:13 am

I always thought one daily flight to SAN and PHX wasn't really enough. It's a good thing AA is expanding/considering expanding these routes, especially before WN opens up STL-SAN and makes a killing.

Aaron G.
 
Air1727
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:22 am

Interesting chatter LambertMan. Thanks for sharing. Nothing seems to be out of the ordinary; most of those equipment changes are standard for the time of year.
In the Alaska bush I'd rather have a two hour bladder and three hours of gas than vice versa.
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:45 am

Again... this is creepy. This aircraft/market balancing stuff is what I'm trying to take a break from by coming over here. It's all well and good when you can just toss the discussion around, but when you try to develop the whole decision process mathematically... eeewwww  Nuts
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
N960AS
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:48 am

LAX-STL is currently 3x 752 (weekdays, they throw some M80s in on the weekend).

It will go to 4x M80 so that is an increase of one flight a day (still nothing close to what TWA ran on the route or AA pre-Nov 1). I'm guessing LAX is a mix of high yield and vacation pax. I fly the route a fair amount as I live in Los Angeles and go to school in St. Louis and I can say it looks like an average mix of college students, biz pax and midwesterners in shorts ready for LA. Speaking of which...enough snow I am ready for LA next week!
 
atrude777
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:30 pm

I am so happy to see a 757-200 STL-ORD! ITS ABOUT TIME!!! Iv always wondered why we never had that!!! But sad to see we will lose all 757 service to DFW. But who gives a crap, I like short flights on big aircrafts!! Looks as if they are trasnfering all STL paxs to ORD instead of DFW, wonder why......
Also MIA gets downgraded? while everyone else gets more routes to MIA? somethings fishy.............

MCI-STL-MCI was the most stupid idea to be dropped, I hope AE acts on it, but WN hasn't done anything so who knows. EVV was dropped? oh my thats a shock! Well, who knows, keep the chatter going Lambertman!!

Alex.
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
Okie
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:25 pm

I was just looking over your numbers Lambertman
-1 738
-2 757
+5 $80
+2 RJ
Are they just shuffling for yield or passengers?
 
MAH4546
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:40 pm

Also MIA gets downgraded? while everyone else gets more routes to MIA? somethings fishy.............

Nothing fishy. The Miami market looses no capacity, it remains at 2 daily 757s and one daily S80, the only difference is that lower-yielding FLL gets one 757 and MIA gets one S80 and 757.
a.
 
LambertMan
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:03 pm

Okie, these switches are fairly common for the seasons capacity wise, but it seems that AA's stratetgy is to switch the 752's to the leisure routes (low yielding), hence the removal of MRTC on those A/C. Kinda seems like a combination of both to me. Big thumbs up
 
LHR001
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:29 pm

What in the World???


LAX from 757 to MD-80????


What about -

New York/JFK
New York/LGA
Ontario
Orange County
Sacramento
San Francisco
San Jose
Seattle

Nothing was stated about the above mentioned routes.....


LHR001
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:11 am

"keep the chatter going Lambertman!!"

I agree... this is educational and interesting to see everyone's different takes on the what/why.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
Air1727
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:50 am

The 757s were always placed on the leisure system during the winter season, even under Trans World; capacity is the issue which "MRTC" falls under since it is a capacity variable. As for Miami, it is not an even balance, and Miami does loose slight capacity. In terms of analysis, the Florida destinations are usually always treated seperately; Miami and Fort Lauderdale are no exception. There is very little crossover when it comes to flight out of Saint Louis.
In the Alaska bush I'd rather have a two hour bladder and three hours of gas than vice versa.
 
LambertMan
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:33 am

Lhr, if you are talking about those routes out of STL, ONT, SMF, SJC, and JFK aren't serviced anymore from STL. JFK was kind of a shocker in my mind when they dropped it, it kinda used to be one of TDUB's flagship routes albeit most were domestic connection pax from JFK it was still neat to see 747's on a short hop like STL-JFK. SMF, ONT, and SJC I believe just couldnt handle a flight without the connecting pax to support it; I honestly don't know how these routes even did before the cutbacks anyways. Big thumbs up
 
qqflyboy
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:41 am

The 752 from STL to LAS makes sense, as AA is transitioning LAS to an all 752 operation. According to the schedule in SABRE, both LAS-STL flights will operate with 752s starting January 6. As for the airport becoming all 752, the agents haven't heard yet when that will happen.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:57 am

Let me just throw this into the fray...

Why should certain routes HAVE to have service from STL? I want to see what kind of responses that gets.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
LambertMan
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:05 am

STL-LGW Seasonal, STL-JFK, STL-DCA mainline, STL-PHL mainline as long as WN doesn't get in on it. All of them have a lack of service and probably could justify service if not on a year round basis, a 4x weekly or seasonal basis in the case of LGW. I believe the LGW-STL flight finished at 67% LF for last year, and to my knowledge the winter loads pulled on that number real hard, so maybe a summer service would make some money. JFK is underserviced by our once daily CR4 by Comair (which goes out full everyday), and could use a once daily B6 320 or 2x daily E190 when they come online. STL-DCA was one of STL's gems from what I hear, but I have no clue why they downgraded it to RJ, I am truly at a loss on that decision. STL-PHL has a sizable business following and has only RJ's on the route by both AA and US, that was one of the few that surprised me in the cutbacks.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:06 am

Well, I'll jump in and say that MSY should see nonstop service to STL because the flights have always done well....Ozark, TWA, now American....and I do not forsee that changing. TWA offered the only nonstop service in the market for years. Southwest flew it for a time, but stopped. The current schedule...one S80 and ERJ...is perfect for this route for the O/D traffic between the two cities. They are taking the ERJ away it looks like, but it will return in mid Feb., which is a good thing. The S80 flight goes out consistently full (as it has for years). I wouldn't expect to see anything larger than the -80 in this market, however...it's a perfect sized aircraft. One day i'd like to see AA add an additional ERJ flight...say an early morning flight around 7:30.

That's the scoop from the Big Easy....what about other cities?


Stephen/New Orleans
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:12 am

MSY... that's not exactly what I was getting at, but I will respond nonetheless:

"Well, I'll jump in and say that MSY should see nonstop service to STL because the flights have always done well....Ozark, TWA, now American....and I do not forsee that changing."

So? Ozark and TWA didn't have 2 other midwest hubs. The only traffic that really matters is O&D stuff between STL and MSY. Everything else could connect through ORD or DFW.

"TWA offered the only nonstop service in the market for years."

Irrelevant - it was a hub airport for TWA... they had non-stops to a billion places. See above.

"Southwest flew it for a time, but stopped."

Why?

"The current schedule...one S80 and ERJ...is perfect for this route for the O/D traffic between the two cities."

Right. The bottom line is that the only solid traffic is the O&D stuff. Everything else from around the country can connect via ORD and DFW. There is no REAL reason that STL has to go anywhere at all.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
Air1727
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:16 am

LambertMan, you are a very intuitive gentleman for sure. Nice to see some good thinking now and then. One thing you have to remember in terms of the above mentioned questions regarding the lack of service to the so called "goldmine" runs of previous years is that those were heavy hitters because of the network Trans World developed here. New York JFK was a huge ballbuster run because of the international gateway that Trans World once had, not too mention the New York traffic alone which is always strong. Washington D.C. is in the same boat; with the extreme loss of hub networking in Saint Louis, there is not enough throughfeed to justify keeping those routes open. Seasonal is always an option for some, such as London, which usually was both connecting and o&d traffic. But with the severe downgrade of hub activity in Saint Louis, those flight are no longer justified. American sees it fit to connect traffic through Chicago O'Hare or Dallas. The airlines, however dumb they seem sometimes, are very keen on demand and if the demand was there from Saint Louis, the flights would show it. So it is easy to "think" some routes should be open, but the fact is they really are not that justified on a non-stop basis.
In the Alaska bush I'd rather have a two hour bladder and three hours of gas than vice versa.
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:41 am

"LambertMan, you are a very intuitive gentleman for sure"

Was that meant for me?

Anyway, this happens to be a working diagram from writing the AI code for the airlines in our game. In the case we are talking about, AB cities are served by multiple hubs... is it necessary to connect A to a B' city so that people from an AB city can get there? Not really.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:08 am

Innocuous,

I would not say my comments were irrelevant. To you perhaps, but they make sense to me. TWA flew the route for years, so that should tell you something right there: the route has demand for nonstop service. Historical significance does not play a factor in any airline's decisions these days we all know this. If there wasn't traffic for such a service, they wouldn't operate it. Period.

Fact is, a metro area the size of STL deserves nonstops to all the key business and leisure markets. I don't really think anyone can argue with that statement.

Stephen/New Orleans
 
copaair737
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:58 am

I believe that SFO is served 2 or 3x daily with S80s
Livin' on Reds, Vitamin C, and Cocaine
 
usairways85
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:04 am

PHL saw quite a drop in seats to STL. They went from 5 daily MD-80's to 5 daily ERJ's, big drop from 129 seats per flight to 50
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:08 am

My whole point is that, given the other AA hubs, there is a decreased necessity to HAVE to go anywhere direct from STL. Sure, as long as they have a pseudo-hub presence there, they may as well. That function decreases rapidly, however, on the longer haul trans-con stuff.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
mikesairways
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:28 am

When did SJC-STL stop? I just saw that and the timetable confirms it. Are there going to be any flights out of SJC anymore?
The red zone is for the immediate loading and unloading of passengers only, there is no stopping in the white zone...(Ai
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:32 am

I would suspect there are quite a few to DFW and ORD and many others. Don't panic.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
767Lover
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:33 am

I found it amusing when watching the St. Louis Blues hockey game on television that AA had a banner ad inside the rink. I kept thinking, "What's the point?"

 Smile

[Edited 2003-12-12 01:34:21]
 
LambertMan
Topic Author
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:47 am

767Lover, the point is is that they don't want people thinking, "Gee, They are COMPLETELY GONE." That is not the case we have mainline service to the major markets and RJ service to secondary/major markets. AA still has a major point in advertising STL because they still have a large investment in it.
MikesAirways, SJC still has a decent AA presence
AA/AE flights to BOS, AUS, DFW, ORD, AA), Japan">NRT, LAS, LAX, SAN JFK, HNL, and if I'm correct SNA still.
Copa, yes its still 2x S80's but from what I've been seeing LF wise they both haven't been doing all that great. Big thumbs up

[Edited 2003-12-12 01:48:50]
 
Air1727
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:52 am

MSYTristar, your point makes sense, however, it is somewhat far fetched for the example you are trying to use. In this case, historical significance means everything in the case you state. New Orleans-Saint Louis was only a non-stop for Trans World because of its hub network in Saint Louis which provided enough feed to justify the non-stop. Myopia can kill the cat that thinks just because a city has a big business presence means it needs non-stops to all of the other major business markets in the country. That is quite a misnomer and very false. If the demand was there to keep Saint Louis-New Orleans non-stop with a moderate frequency, then it would still exist. It doesn't, and the reason being that the ends don't justify the means. 90% of the non-stops out of Saint Louis during Ozark's and Trans World's tenure in Saint Louis was because of their hub network; nothing else. Southwest's stint at the Saint Louis-New Orleans market was for the same reason; Southwest had enough connecting demand in Saint Louis to justify the non-stop service. That of course did not yield enough revenue, demand fell short, and the aircraft utilization was placed on another route that was worthwhile. Fact is that Saint Louis is no longer a hub, no matter how you look at it ("quasi/mini/pseudo hub" are quasi terminologies themselves), and it will remain a point of service airport that supplies just enough air service to fulfill o&d demand. Until someone else in the future feels it is necessary to build a gateway or hub here, what you see is what you get.
In the Alaska bush I'd rather have a two hour bladder and three hours of gas than vice versa.
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:59 am

"Until someone else in the future feels it is necessary to build a gateway or hub here, what you see is what you get."

Which ties into my point in the thread regarding AirTran and CMH. Someone looking for a new hub is going to have to look seriously at the new availability at STL. SWA is already expanding their presence. Look for someone else to do so as well.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
Air1727
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 12, 2003 10:04 am

Southwest will only expand their presence to the gate capacity they have available to them at Concourse E (East Terminal). They own those gates, and unless they desperately need more, they won't go off and increase their costs by leasing common use gates. The gates they own are not at full utilization either, so until they rack em and stack em, they won't boomtown anytime soon at Saint Louis.
In the Alaska bush I'd rather have a two hour bladder and three hours of gas than vice versa.
 
atrude777
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RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:49 pm

I agree and admit, STL is definetly not the airport we saw 5 years ago.

I am surprised we have the service we do now considerign alot of these cities were mainly connecting. STL-LAX id care about more frequencies then big aircrafts


What does STL want and support?

Big aircrafts? But very few routes?
or...
Small aircrafts, but alot of freqeuncies?


Id choose the small aircraft and alot of frequenices because of the fact we have more to choose from. that being said its a shock for me but am glad they did it...to have a 757 STL-ORD. what does AA see in jsutifying a 757 on that route and why do they think it will work now and not 5 months ago? TW never had a 757 STL-ORD did they??

Alex.
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
LambertMan
Topic Author
Posts: 1744
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:26 pm

RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:05 pm

There are more connecting passengers that need to go through ORD than before since we don't have places such as PDX, SJC, SMF etc., and not to get your hopes up but I didn't notice that the ORD 757 will be very short lived according to the scheds. Big thumbs up
 
atrude777
Posts: 4412
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:55 pm

lambertman---how short lived are you talking??  Sad


is this new route for good? or just until the summer starts or what?


Alex.
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!

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