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keesje
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Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:07 pm

"There are those who are responding to our A330-200 market domination, which is a plane launched five years ago and which incorporates at a technological level practically everything that the 7E7 is expected to have."

http://servihoo.com/channels/kinews/v3news_details.php?id=26836&CategoryID=47

I think the 7E7 will be a great aircraft, as is the A330.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
767-332ER
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:11 pm


Sounds like a response that would be logical from someone that sees that there is something great coming.
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BeltwayBandit
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:11 pm

I like the idea that Airbus and Boeing are taking two entirely different directions. Both are ground-breaking, but in different ways. Maybe this will allow both to thrive.

I think Boeing's path is more secure in that they will be selling a more mainstream product; and the advancements they achieve will be translated into later models.
 
twalives
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 12:08 am

I like the idea that Airbus and Boeing are taking two entirely different directions. Both are ground-breaking, but in different ways. Maybe this will allow both to thrive.

Its quite funny to me that both companies and supporters are calling their new products "ground breaking" because I find very little ground-breaking about either ideas.

As far as Airbus goes, there is already a double decker airplane in service...so what if their product will seat 20% more people.

With regards to Boeing, I can't imagine there has ever been a newly designed plane that was more efficient than its predecessor.

The fact remains that 90% of the human population (not you and I included) will look at these planes the same way they look at a 757, A320, 747 or A340...its a tube with wings. Don't get me wrong, the new designs are most definitely exciting to me but c'mon does ground breaking really apply?
 
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 12:25 am

I agree with Twalives. Neither of these is truly ground-breaking in the way that, say, the 707 or the Concorde was.

However, I would argue that this does not diminish the achievement. To me, the exciting thing is that each new project--A320, 777, A380, 7E7, etc.--introduces incremental advances that might not look like much to the casual observer but, when you add them all up, actually represent huge advances in the way we build and operate commercial aircraft.
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LMP737
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 12:29 am

What else do you expect Airbus to say?

"Well the 7E7 has us a bit worried but since we have our handsfull with the A380 and derivatives such as the A340-600 we really don't have the time or money to respond head on with an all new aircraft of our own at this time."

Highly doubtful.
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longhaulheavy
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 12:33 am

Beltwaybandit: I think Boeing's path is more secure in that they will be selling a more mainstream product; and the advancements they achieve will be translated into later models.

I think it will be very interesting to see what the Boeing engineers figure out while they build this plane. You just never know if they'll discover some competitive advantage that can be translated into other aircraft, new or old. Whether in composite, electronic, or efficiency research, some of the systems in the 7E7 will be several steps ahead of any other commercial airliner.

The question is whether it can be translated into a reasonably priced airplane that is economical to operate. In my own opinion, the mantra of 'fewer hub flights, more non-stops' will help the sale of this aircraft over its larger competitors.
 
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keesje
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 12:47 am

we really don't have the time or money to respond head on with an all new aircraft of our own at this time.

Boeing is responding to the A330-200 eating up "their" point to point long haul market. I don't recall Boeing studying an all new aicraft 5 yrs after the 777 flew (1995->2000)

The A380 constantly dragged into the discussion is irrelevant IMO.
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cwapilot
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 1:02 am

I think it states that they have their horse (A330-200) and they are going to ride it until it is necessary to replace it. They will continue to sell the -200, and the line will survive quite a while with some tweaks and modifications to approximate 7E7 performance, making the acquisition cost of the 7E7 too significant when compared to the savings that would result due to a changeover from the 332. That will preserve many existing customers, and still garner new ones. Was this not Boeing's tack on just about every airframe they have produced? The 767 was doing just fine against the A330, to a point, and now it is necessary to replace it, as it is no longer holding its own. In fact, they probably waited too long, as the 767 is not only "not holding its own" against the 332, it is getting killed. Airbus has made the same mistake with the A300, but now they realize it is probably too late for the A300, as why would you go for a rehash of a rehash of a rehash, when 21st Century technology is available in the 7E7? That's along the lines of "why buy a virtually unchanged 747 with a few more seatsm when a brand new aircraft with newer technology, optimized for such passenger loads, is now available in the A380. IMO that wasn't as big a mistake for Boeing, as the lack of A300 development/replacement was for Airbus, as the VLA market is, in fact, a niche, while the 200/250 seat market is huge and growing.
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b757300
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 1:06 am

Now if Boeing had made such as idiotic comment, people would be running here saying how stupid they are and how it shows that the company was going down the drain.
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BeltwayBandit
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 1:12 am

The question is whether [7E7] can be translated into a reasonably priced airplane that is economical to operate.

This is the gamble. I have no doubt that a carbon fiber fuselage and new engines will make it more economical, but at what price? The very fact that the 717 (in many ways a 20-30 year old airframe) is still economically viable today is testament to the fact that there are huge efficiencies to be gained in new airframe materials and designs. (717's problems in the market are due to its legacy status, not efficiency.)

With carbon fiber you get away from the need to have a generic tube shape; and you can re-think the structural relationship between wings (empennage) and the fuselage. A lot of what a plane looks like today is dictated by the use of aluminum framing and skins. The 7E7 is going to be a breakthrough. The price that Boeing can charge will be determined by the market. They may have to eat some losses before they recoup their investment in this aircraft.
 
jwenting
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 1:15 am

Now if Boeing had made such as idiotic comment, people would be running here saying how stupid they are and how it shows that the company was going down the drain.


Well said. For some reason anything Airbus says or does is commented on as being logical and natural whereas anything Boeing says or does is ridiculed.
I can still recall KEESJE posting glorious statements by Airbus about how ridiculous the entire 7E7 concept is...
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DIA
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 1:17 am

The 7E7 will have more advanced technology than the A330. The next plane that either Boeing or Airbus introduces within the next five to ten years will be more advanced than the 7E7. This is no surprise. Airbus and Boeing are constantly going to state things in terms of, "Yes, that plane may have a little more advanced technology than our version, but ours costs considerably less, which makes up for those "technical and efficiency cost saving measures" on our competitors newly introduced a/c.

Advanced technology is what the whole business is about. The more up-to-date a/c you (your own a/c company) have, the more your client will pay. When a competitor a/c is introduced with more advance technology, you will have to implement a strategy of selling your a/c at a lessor price point to make up for the savings costs your possible airline client will have if they go with the newest competitor's a/c.

Just as if Airbus introduces a newer version of the A330, like a A330-100, Airbus will implement newer technologies into it. Just like Boeing has done over the course of the 747 program.

So for Airbus to lay low right now. . .well they are just conducting business as usual. If I had to guess, I'd say Airbus is working on a competitor to the future 7E7 models to be introduced. Airbus is not going to take it easy and just rely on their current model line to use as competition against the 7E7; they will probably introduce variations of one or two of their current models or introduce a whole new a/c in a few years. . .if they can soak up some cash; now whether or not the A380 program depletes or adds to the piggy bank, we'll have to see.

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brons2
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 1:30 am

The A380 constantly dragged into the discussion is irrelevant IMO.

Yes it is, because it is eating up their R&D dollars that would otherwise be available to respond to the 7E7.
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learjet25
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:12 am

Refresh my memory, what happened to a certain A320 flying for a certain national airline. As far as composites, I'm sorry, but I really don't think it was so completely revolutionary to use them in a larger scale. I believe that problems with certain composite areas on earlier Aibus aircraft are being discovered aren't they? I apologize for being so krass, I just get so frustrated with Airbus' attitude, and I think I just needed a hug. My opinions are still the same but I do not want to convey any more of the tone I have been previously, at least on this thread. By the way, I respect your sense of national pride as well. Thank you for commenting.
 
ORDagent
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:14 am

Enough Airbus BASHING PLEASE!

A what you xenophobic bashers are forgetting to realize is that Airbus is a remarkable company for several reasons:

1) They have united a fractured European aerospace market into a unified whole that can truly compete against the Boeing monolith which was not possible with Vickers,Fokker,MBB etc.

2) Composites and FBW were indeed available but not on commercial aircraft. Those were indeed revolutionary in many ways.

3) Aircraft cabins that thought of passenger comfort without that horrible middle bank of five seats etc. etc.

I could go on but remember both Boeing/Airbus MUST be both push the envelope in order to keep market share. My only worry is they will become a cozy duopoly in the large aircraft market. Hopefully the Russian industry will one day become a viable competitor! How about a TU-304 or an IL 106-300 in LH or AA colors ?
 
danialanwar
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:27 am

Something I dont quite get yet ... the 7E7 is said to have a range of 8500nm or so which is huge. Just wondering how effective the plane is going to be on much shorter routes, eg Trans-Atlantic
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Ruscoe
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:47 am

The way I see it, the 330 (and 380) are incremental. while the 7E7 is groundbreaking in that for the first time (I think), a commercial airliner will have all its major load carrying structures in composite.

The 330 certainly does not do this, and even on the 380, Airbus have not had the confidence in composites, to commit the major load bearing parts of the fuselage to composites.

If successful, the 7e7 is going to form the basis of a whole new generation of aircraft. In fact the Airbus vulnerability in this area is clear, if Boeing were to launch a 737 replacement based on composites, earlier rather than later.

The 380 is relevant to this debate, because its development is what is handicapping the Airbus response to the 7e7, and also because it reflects the different philosophy which Airbus and Boeing hold with regard to the future direction of airtravel.

Will it be large aircraft like the 380 flying hub and spoke, or smaller aircraft like the 7e7 flying point to point which is the future.

But, the most groundbreaking thing about the 7e7 from Boeings point of view anyway, is the way it will be funded and built. It will usher in a whole new era of low cost of production aircraft, and this is what is really required to regain dominance in the commercial market.

Ruscoe
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:49 am

Danielanwar, there's going to be 3 variants of the 7E7, one optimized for shorter routes, even having a different wing shape.
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Paddy
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 3:29 am

Will it be large aircraft like the 380 flying hub and spoke, or smaller aircraft like the 7e7 flying point to point which is the future.

I think most of us on here will agree that both are valid views of the future. There will be an increased demand for point to point travel as well as hub to hub travel. The point to point travel will dismantle some of the hub networks but A380's will still be valuable for center to center travel. But there are only so many city pairs that will need and can handle the A380. Boeing knows this, and that is why they are saying there is only room for one manufacturer in that segment. They acknowledge that Airbus has made a great plane for a specific market. Airbus however, is very flippant about the 7E7 range, which is the greatest threat to their family of aircraft since it has recently reached maturity.

First things first, lets stop comparing the 7E7 to the A332. I think as the 7E7 program emerges it will become increasingly apparent just how stupid this comparison is. Boeing is creating three versions to cover everything from the 752 up to the DC10/L1011/A333 range of aircraft. This is the entire midsection of the range of airliners, and a vast market. The 7E7 program is obviously not a response to the A332 but a family of aircraft that happens to center around a plane similar in size and range to the A332. That's the only comparison I would make- the middle model of the 7E7 is a vastly modernized and improved A330-200. The short range version of the 7E7 will thrive in markets where the A332 is too much plane and too much turnaround time(think QF's CityFlyer routes). On the top end, if Boeing is successful, the long range, stretched version will have vastly superior range to the A333, with better operating costs.

The A332/7E7 comparison is just Airbus propaganda that has little basis in fact. They know Boeing has them beat both in scope and technology this time, and the last thing they are going to do is admit it. I don't like saying all of this because I'm a big Airbus fan, but that's just how I see it.



[Edited 2003-12-17 19:31:16]

[Edited 2003-12-17 19:32:53]

[Edited 2003-12-17 19:34:07]
 
Spaceman
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 5:53 am

"On the top end, if Boeing is successful, the long range, stretched version will have vastly superior range to the A333, with better operating costs."

The purpose of the A333 is not to have a vast range; you have the A340 for that specific purpose.

If your saying is correct, it sounds like the 7E7 will also become competitive to Boeing's own 777 line. Is Boeing also phasing out the 777?

"Boeing is creating three versions to cover everything from the 752 up to the DC10/L1011/A333 range of aircraft. This is the entire midsection of the range of airliners, and a vast market."

If Boeing's own 757 line and 767 line isn't being an increasing drag to the Boeing line of aircraft and the A330 line isn't having increasing popularity, why would Boeing came out to introduce the 7E7 line? If it's not a response to the mid range A330 product of the airbus, I would say Boeing needs to rethink its strategies.
 
elwood64151
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:12 am

I think both companies are scared to death that the other's programs will be more successful in the coming years. Airbus has the current edge, but who knows where B will be in a few years. By the same token, the A380 could steal away the 747 thunder Boeing has been rumbling for thirty-three years.

I doubt either company will get the other's goat. Both make fine products, and if nothing else, airlines will look at the low wait-time for new Boeing products (due to decreased back-log) and jump at it.

By the way, I've read no other posts. I'm sure this has already turned into an AvB thread.
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Adria
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:21 am

I am wondering why Boeing gives such images of the 7E7? And the proposed range of 8500NM is something to much. Well I understand it why they have done this at Le Bourget(otherwise nobody would care about them- the A380 is just far more interesting at the moment) but now they should get some more realistic images of the aircraft and about its performance
 
DIA
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:27 am

. . ."the A380 is just far more interesting at the moment."

I would disagree. Everyone has their own opinions on what is currently more interesting. For me, the 7E7 is the hottest/more interesting topic for now. . .that may change, for instance, when the A380 makes its first flight. It all depends, but right now, the 7E7 holds the current record for "log-jamming" posts on A.net.
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DIA
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:41 am

Just wanted to add this piece from Boeing's website:

"Three models of the airplane are in development, including a short-range version for flights of 3,500 nautical miles with 300 passengers in two-class seating.

Others have said that this specific model will be aimed specifically at JAL and ANA, after much input from these two airlines.
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:53 am

And the proposed range of 8500NM is something to much. Well I understand it why they have done this at Le Bourget(otherwise nobody would care about them- the A380 is just far more interesting at the moment) but now they should get some more realistic images of the aircraft and about its performance

How do you know that this won't be the real range of the Stretch Version of the 7E7? Boeing's stated that the 7E7Stretch will have a range of 8300 NM, so let's work with that for now. After all, just because a number seems great doesn't mean it's impossible. Once upon a time, for instance, if you talked about a plane going Mach 1, you'd be asked to "be realistic."
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Paddy
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:42 am

If your saying is correct, it sounds like the 7E7 will also become competitive to Boeing's own 777 line. Is Boeing also phasing out the 777?

Good question, I've actually wondered the same thing myself. If the stretch version seats about 300 in a typical three class layout, it would be redundant of the 772's. Maybe Boeing will have sold enough 772's at that point to switch emphasis to the 7E7"LR" and 773 models. The technology introduced on the 7E7 might make the 772 obsolete. If I was an airline looking at the 772LR I'd wait a few years and go with the 7E7LR - it would probably be a lot cheaper to operate. It will be interesting if the mighty 777 turns out to be the stopgap between the big tri-holers and the 7E7LR, although that would be a 15+ year run even if it was phased out. Any ideas on this? Will the 772 offer anything that the stretch 7E7 won't?
 
rjpieces
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Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:55 am

The stretch version is specifically being designed to compete with the A330-200. There will be little overlap. In the future, all new Boeing planes will be built with technologies similar to the 7e7.
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B2707SST
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 8:01 am

The 7E7 Stretch is about the size of the 767-400ER. It will seat about 250 in a three-class configuration, fitting into the bracket below the 777-200, which seats 300 in three classes.

The baseline 7E7 will seat around 200 pax in three classes, about midway between the 767-200 and -300.

Range on the baseline 7E7, the 7E7 Stretch, the 777-200ER, the 777-300ER, and 747-400ER will be quite similar (about 7,600 - 8,300 nm).

--B2707SST
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AvObserver
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:18 am

From AvWeek: http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_aviationdaily_story.jsp?id=news/app12173.xml

The "no response needed" posture will change quickly if large numbers of carriers line up for the 7E7. As the article states, Airbus may need to be concerned about 7E7 sales encroachment on the A330 line which gives it an interesting dilemna: To modify the A330 or develop a new airplane. Option 2 won't be feasible for some time. Option 1 is more achievable in the near-term but would it go far enough?

"Previously, Airbus said it could offer 7E7 efficiencies by collaborating with the engine maker Boeing doesn't select for a new A330-200 powerplant (DAILY, June, 26). But JSA Research President Paul Nisbet said Airbus could probably achieve only half of the 20% fuel consumption Boeing claims to offer with the 7E7.

Nisbet said it would be hard for Airbus to act quickly on an A330 replacement because most of its resources are tied up with the A380. He reasoned it would take Airbus four to five years to develop an A330 replacement after the A380's 2006 entry into service unless the Toulouse, France-based airframer finds an efficient way to modify the widebody, leaving Boeing a window of opportunity "assuming everything evolves as promised," with the 7E7."

Clearly, modifying the A330-200 with similar engines and lowering it's price would be the quickest, cheapest way for Airbus to compete. But it looks like it'll still be 10% short in fuel consumption, a big difference for something that's a huge driver of airline costs. Over an aircraft's lifetime, the difference in fuel costs between the modified A330 and the 7E7 would be enormous, an important factor even if the A330 is priced way below the 7E7.

"The 7E7's new technology also means a higher price than the A330, which was developed in the 1990s. But Boeing VP-Marketing Randy Baseler told The DAILY yesterday that while Boeing hasn't determined the 7E7's price, its efficiencies bring intrinsic value to carriers, including a 2,000-nautical-mile increase in the stretched 7E7's range, compared with the A330-200, cargo capabilities equaling about $1 million in revenue, and environmental advantages of the engines.

Baseler also said the 18.5-inch measurement of the stretched 7E7's seat bottoms was more than the 17.2 inches offered on the A330-200, noting the Airbus bottoms were roughly the size of those on the 737. Boeing claims the operating empty weight (OEW) of the stretched 250-seat passenger 7E7 is 10 tons lighter than the A330-200.

Goloshefsky suggested that although Boeing is touting engine efficiencies, the second facet of its 7E7 strategy -- life cycle maintenance improvements and lighter weight -- "is where they're looking for differentiation."

The fact that the 7E7 has 10 tons less weight and more advanced aerodynamics than the A332, creates a problem for Airbus no matter how much they tweak it or mark it down. If it can't approach 7E7 operating costs, it's indeed handicapped in the midsize jet wars and Airbus had better start saving up their euros for a successor, rather than blowing a bunch on a halfway effort. As the projected efficiencies of the A380 have humbled the 747, the A330 line as well will be humbled if 7E7 performance meets target. I acknowledge the A330, especially the -200, is a great airplane that has blown the 767 almost out of the water. But is it realistic to think that a basically 1980's design, somewhat tweaked and shortened in the 1990's, can truly hold its' own, even after more tweaks, with a brand-new, state of the art model. Think about it, doubters.

 
qqflyboy
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:53 pm

Forgive me if this was already posted, but yesterday Boeing announced they will begin offering the 7E7 for sale to airlines, and also, Everett, WA has been chosen as the final assembly location.

Here's the press realease: http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2003/q4/nr_031216g.html
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bigb
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:53 pm

Good question, I've actually wondered the same thing myself. If the stretch version seats about 300 in a typical three class layout, it would be redundant of the 772's.

what are you talking about? The 7E7 is said to seat 300 in a TWO class layout, not three where a 777 can fit 300 in a THREE class layout.
 
rjpieces
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Thu Dec 18, 2003 3:05 pm

Once again........the 7e7 Stretch which is the largest model being developed now is to compete directly against the A-330-200! The A332s are selling like crazy and Boeing doesn't offer a good competitor. The 7e7 stretch will NOT overlap with the 777.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Paddy
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:16 pm

Yeah I got it, thanks. For some stupid reason I had that it in my head that the baseline model will seat 250. Its the stretch that will seat 250. All that head scratching over nothing....sorry, its finals week here at school!  Nuts
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:37 pm

These are sort of groundbreaking, because like Twalives stated: 90% (probably even more) of the people just see a tube with wings, to catch there attention, it takes something more than a "boring" (hell, this will kick off a new debate...) 320 or 767...the 747 still catches attention of those who have no clue about airplanes, as anything flying is called a 747...most people still use the term "Jumbo" for it. The 380 will catch their attention as well, especially in Europe as many countries are involved in the manufacturing process. If You hear to European press, Boeing is, even with the 7E7, far behind Airbus, probably not so in Asia, especially Japan, as they get involved...
If the 7E7 comes up with a special design, if the "Dreamliner" thing sticks to it and becomes truth, and if they can come up with a good media campaign, they sure can get quite some attention.
Pretty sad, that apart from the 747, many Boeing products are sort of ignored by most people, as Airbus helds a lot of ground overe here in Europe.
The US situation is probably just inverted, as Boeing is a big employer there...
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sturdy
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 8:02 pm

Of course what do you expect airbus to say that the 7E7 is threat to their aging A330? The fact is, 7E7 is indeed a THREAT especially that the new plane is advance in many ways(technology...lovely design....etc.) :-0  Love

go go Boeing!!!! hurray!!!!  Laugh out loud
 
noelg
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 8:18 pm

Imo, there are merits to both side.

Yes, the A330 is a mighty nice aircraft, so is the 777. The 7E7 looks like it will be a cool aircraft too, as well as the A380, although there is no comparison between the 2 - the A380 and 7E7 are designed for different purposes/markets.

Equally, the 737 is good in its own way, as is the A320/A319!

All aircraft have their merits and bad points - no aircraft will ever be 100% perfect!!

I admit I'm a bit of an Airbus fan - but I'm not so obsessed as to choose to fly one type over another unless I have a real hangup about it - and I'm planning to fly on a 777 next year and am looking forward to it immensely!

NoelG
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:53 pm

Well I really hope that Boeing can manage to get this aircraft in the air - and that the Dreamliner becomes a reality. Boeing's recent record isn't too fantastic.

MH
come visit the south pacific
 
dw747400
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:04 am

Airbus's plan sounds to me a lot like Boeing's 747NG ideas: modify the old workhorse to compete with an all-new design. I doubt Airbus will have much more success than Boeing did unless they manage to sell the A330 for substantially below what it is currently going for.

The 7E7 looks like a go, all they need now is launch orders. If the airlines believe Boeing can meet its performance guarantees (which they have a very good record of doing... just look at the 777-300ER!), I don't think they can really refuse this airplane.
CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
 
LMP737
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:12 am

In a way the attitude at Airbus in regards to the 7E7 sort of reminds of the attitude at Boeing. First when Airbus started out, "It will never last". When Airbus launched the 320 family, "We have the 737-300/400/500". Or when Airbus launched the A330, "The 767 will do just fine". And as we all know this sort of attitude has cost Boeing dearly.

Maybe, just maybe and I do mean maybe. There might be a bit of role reversal going on here.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:00 pm

Good point LMP737...

"It's a typical government plane. They will built a dozen or so and then go out of business."(sic)
Boeing's Vice President in 1974, dismissing Airbus Industries and its new A300B.


"I think the big bad wolf is screaming because Little Red Riding Hood has bitten him in the ass." an Airbus official reacting to Boeing's complaint after Eastern's 1978 purchase of 23 A300s...  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
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keesje
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Sun Dec 21, 2003 5:37 am

"As we look at the economics of the 7E7, 20 percent lower fuel consumption -- they say it'll have 214 seats, and we have 241 on the A330-200," Leahy said.

Using Boeing's numbers, he said, the 7E7 will have operating costs per plane trip a few percentage points lower per trip than the A330-200. But because the A330-200 has more seats, the Boeing plane will be 2 percent more expensive per passenger seat mile.

"We don't see that as an overwhelming case for the airlines to switch to Boeing's plane," he said.

Leahy said Boeing and Airbus will probably split the market in the 200- to 250-seat category, and that the entire market over 20 years will be for 1,800 planes.

http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/business/7525872.htm

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
LastBaron
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Sun Dec 21, 2003 6:22 am

Bla bla bla as usual. The narrow American national egocentric viewpoint lives. Airbus is a consortium, a true miracle of engineering, cross-boundary planning and cooperation. Every Airbus aircraft is a true miracle of cross-cultural planning and execution of some very amazing assembly techniques. Boeing aircraft are like Fords - boring assembly-line crap, albeit with a slightly record than Ford's reputation as "fix or repair daily." Boeing is just another stodgy U.S. company that is upset because an "upstart" has taken away some of its prestige and it is afraid it will not be able to survive or compete in the future, hence all the bellyaching in here about "how unfair it is" that Airbus is "government subsidized" - what a bunch of weenies! If I was the government of Country X and I owned a stake in a business, damned straioght I would make sure it got every bit of support it needed to be successful. Too bad Americans have never understood that concept and are now watching their beloved Boeing feelthe strain.

As usual, the American-dominated board is bashing the Europeans. Who can expect anything else in here? After all, most of the sheeple posting here take their cue and lead from the idiot at the helm at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, and he does the same thing as we have all seen with Iraq and Halliburton and the rest of the corrupt crap being done in the name of every American.

Airbus is running circles around Boeing. Airbus will continue to do so for the foreseeable future, and all the weenie-whining in the world ain't gonna change that!

The A380, by the way, in a one-class configuration, can carry 50%, not 20% percent more PAX than the 747 in any configuration.

The 7E7 is appropriately named "Dreamliner" as in "pipe dream;" it will not allow Boeing to reclaim the lead that has been lost. It's too late for that - watch Boeing look for merger partners in another four or five years... maybe Tupolev  Laugh out loud ?

The next big advance? No flying tubes with wings - it will be "teleporting" as seen on Startrek, making all these "I hate Airbus" or "I hate Boeing" threads the unnecessary drivel they already are...  Wink/being sarcastic

 
rjpieces
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RE: UA's IAD Hub Transformation Begins?

Sun Dec 21, 2003 8:03 am

LastBaron.....I'm way too lazy to write back arguments for everything you wrote...but I can sum it up by saying you aren't too bright.

I would not say Airbus is running circles around Boeing:
-737NG and A32X are pretty much head to head, there isn't a winner
-Boeing ALWAYS HAS and WILL for the FORSEEABLE FUTURE dominated the longhaul market, the A380 coming onto the block won't change that substantially...I honestly think the A380 will be a bust and won't even break the 400 order mark.
-777 is kicking the crap out of the A340 and continues to do so
-The 7e7 will end the wonderful life of the A332 and unless Airbus builds a competitng aircraft (which it is in no shape to do after spending billions on the pointless A380), Boeing will dominate that market......If Airbus does build a competing aircraft it is hard to tell what will happen.....If they build a modified A332 with 7e7 engines....the new plane wouldn't be as efficient as the 7e7 and thus the 7e7 would still dominate the market still.....

So basically, your arguments suck.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Sun Dec 21, 2003 8:40 am

LastBaron.....I'm way too lazy to write back arguments for everything you wrote...but I can sum it up by saying you aren't too bright.

I'm gonna go ahead and second this  Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
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Richard28
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Sun Dec 21, 2003 8:47 am

Rjpieces, Rjpieces, Rjpieces.....

Cant we make this a nice discussion board?

no need for shouting, bad language or bad sentiment.

It would seem to me that your nationalistic feaver override your love of aviation, and would like to think you would calm down your posts in future - such a tone is offensive, and adds nothing to conversation.


Lets make this forum a nice place to be, please?
 
LMP737
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Sun Dec 21, 2003 8:58 am

Once again in regards to the kansas.com article is, what else do you expect Airbus to say. In addition Mr. Leahy has a habit of saying things without thinking about what he is saying.

LastBaron:

Are you trying to be sarcastic or were you just a bit cranky when you wrote your little passage?
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Sun Dec 21, 2003 9:01 am

Boeing ALWAYS HAS and WILL for the FORSEEABLE FUTURE dominated the longhaul market
777 is kicking the crap out of the A340 and continues to do so

Well, in the last two years, Airbus has outsold Boeing significantly in both those categories -
767 19 vs A330 76
777 36 vs A340 66
747 21 vs A380 44

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Paddy
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:16 am

Ah, so nice to see that this discussion has turned into a full-fledged A vs. B war. I'm done with this thread...
 
gigneil
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RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:38 am

I'm gonna go ahead and second this

Well, we all KNOW you're not too bright, so that's like a wasted post right there.

Everyone here is running on hype and websites. Nobody knows anything about anything except the few pilots that can speak to the workings of their craft, and the people close to the industry that can speak to what XXX or YYY airline might do next.

Going on the math, the 7E7 and A332 will be extremely close in economics and no amount of bullshit slung here can fix that.

The other thing that no amount of, exactly as was said before, egocentric nationalist pride can fix is that Boeing is losing ground to Airbus at an unprecedented rate and the 7E7 will be the only thing that can save them.

N

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