Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Dionysus
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:52 pm

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Sun Dec 21, 2003 12:04 pm

I agree with Airbus that they will probably divide the 200-250 seats segment with Boeing. 7E7 is built so that airlines like JAL,ANA,CO,DL,AA can replace their aging 767 without going to Airbus. It's a do-or-die plan that will even the playing field between the two companies.

However for someone saying that 7E7 will end A332 life is merely a unrealistic ultra-nationalist dream.
 
B2707SST
Posts: 1289
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Sun Dec 21, 2003 1:00 pm

Of course Leahy says that the A330-200 will beat the 7E7 - you don't seriously think he would announce that "yeah, Boeing's got us beat, we can't match 20% lower DOC, etc. etc." Both companies constantly spin their respective products to the hilt. Only the market will determine the clear winner.

LastBaron:

The formation of Airbus was a technically impressive but artificial accomplishment. The poor early sales of the A300, and Concorde before it, show that this consortium took a long time to find its feet. No private project could have survived the A300's 1972-1978 record of 38 orders. Airbus sales did take off after Eastern ordered A300s in 1978, and especially after the A320 was built; however, both of these projects were, to Airbus itself, riskless undertakings funded by government. Anyone government willing to pour tens of billions into aviation projects could create a competitor to Boeing and Airbus.

Also, Boeing's assembly procedures are certainly competitive with Airbus' - especially the new moving lines, which are unique in aviation. This development and recent downsizing have reduced overhead and made assembly much more efficient. If Boeing's predictions are correct, the 7E7's three-day cycle will beat any jetliner ever built in terms of assembly efficiency.

No, Americans should not be nationalistically blinded, and we should give Airbus credit for its marketing and product design strategies, but neither should we insult and reject everything American simply because it is American.

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Sun Dec 21, 2003 1:03 pm

No, Americans should not be nationalistically blinded, and we should give Airbus credit for its marketing and product design strategies, but neither should we insult and reject everything American simply because it is American.

Absolutely.

N
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Sun Dec 21, 2003 1:26 pm

Let me translate this from the french doublespeak....

"We don't know how to respond yet"

Actually a smart move, wait to see your competition's final design and then design around it's weaknesses.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: UA's IAD Hub Transformation Begins?

Sun Dec 21, 2003 1:50 pm

scbriml, look at overall 777 vs A340 figures and tell me again that Airbus is winning. A330 is a wonderful plane and sales show it.....747 sales are slow as the A380 is coming...but if you look at the overall picture, Boeing still dominates longhaul air travel.

Richard28....I'm not a nationalistic lunatic screaming "Boeing One, Airbus none". I have said many a times that the A32X and A330 are fantastic products.

B2707SST, well said!  Smile

Gigneil said : "Going on the math, the 7E7 and A332 will be extremely close in economics"

Please explain what you mean....If the 7e7 does indeed have 20% lower operating costs, there is no way the 7e7 and A332 will be close in economics.......What I've said,but nobody seems to agree with me so maybe I'm wrong, is that if the 7e7 comes out and is 20% cheaper to operate than the A332, no airline will order the A332 unless Airbus prices them ridiculously low. That would mean the end of the A332 as it is now. This doesn't mean that the A332 will be dead, Airbus can choose to develop a 7e7 competitor based on the A332 model.....but even then magazines are reporting it would only have 1/2 of the efficiency gain that the 7e7 has.

"The other thing that no amount of, exactly as was said before, egocentric nationalist pride can fix is that Boeing is losing ground to Airbus at an unprecedented rate and the 7E7 will be the only thing that can save them."

Once again, I must disagree.....the 7e7 certainly represents the prime aircraft to keep them as # 1 in the industry but the 777 and 737NG will have a strong future as well.....and I don't think the problem are Boeing's planes rather Boeing's marketing team....They need to be more aggressive in getting these orders. They should do anything in their power to secure new Loco orders in the US as that is where there will be great expansion in the future......If Boeing had gotten the B6 order years back things would look a lot different.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Sun Dec 21, 2003 1:54 pm

If the 7e7 does indeed have 20% lower operating costs

Than the 767. All Boeing's numbers are relative to the 767. Not the A330.

but even then magazines are reporting it would only have 1/2 of the efficiency gain that the 7e7 has.

What magazines? Every one I've read is right there with Airbus modifying the 330 and getting right back to the same basic economics.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the rest. No way to know.

N
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: UA's IAD Hub Transformation Begins?

Sun Dec 21, 2003 2:21 pm

Gigneil......I've spent the past 15 minutes searching for the article but I can't find it....Someone posted it in one of the threads here I believe....

If Airbus does redesign the A332...it would be a pretty massive redesign. The 7E7 engines are only going to be 10% of the efficiency gain, the other 10% is expected to come from the composite body....Airbus would have to incorporate both into this new A330 and it would be a huge job.....and who knows if it would match the 7e7 efficiency at the end.

How do you know that the 20% figure is relative to the 767? I doubt Boeing would come out and say this!  Smile At the end, when the 7e7 finally rolls out, I expect it to be fairly more efficient than the A332...but I guess we'll have to wait and see!!!  Smile

Btw, I'm glad I'm not the only one up at midnight arguing about the future of planes  Smile
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19300
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Sun Dec 21, 2003 7:39 pm

rjpieces, my response was targeted at two of your specific claims
1 - Boeing will always dominate long-haul. They won't if Airbus continues to outsell them at the rate they have for the last two years.
2 - The 777 has, and continues to, kick the A340's ass. Yes, 777 sales are significantly better than A340, but the reverse is true over the last two years.

Boeing fans that continue to deny that Airbus is a worthy competitor are not living in the 21st century. I'm sure the 7E7 will be a fine plane, but to think it's going to drive Airbus out of business is just folly.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Sun Dec 21, 2003 8:09 pm

Out of curiosity - how much more economic, in percentage points, is the A332 compared with the B767 - and would that be compared with the B762, B763 or B764?

Anyhow, while I agree that Boeing has quite a good record of keeping it's promises of what the aircraft will do - and at what cost - I'd still say let's wait until it's really flying to declare everything that it competes with (and from some posts you get the impression that it'll be competing with everything from the A321 to the A345) dead and gone.

I've also read that Boeing's numbers were considered to be relative to the B767, but I've also heard comments like "current generation aircraft", which to me sounds like the attempt to put the B767's economics on the same level as the A332's (which is actually why I'm asking that question at the top of this post).

Also, anyone have the numbers of how many B767s were sold since the A332 was launched?

Anyway, as I've said before, the B7e7 will be around 10 years younger than the A332 - if it weren't more efficient then something would be seriously wrong with the design...

Finally, I'd agree that, even if the B7e7 is at the 20% more efficient levels as promised by Boeing, that'll not be the end of the A332: as we all know, airlines don't just buy airplanes so that they can use them for 1-2 years, it's practically always a much longer term: throwing out large quantities of A332s will simply not be possible at the very moment that the B7e7 appears, because Boeing probably will not be starting the production at 30 planes a month - so airlines that are not among the launch customers (and I somehow doubt that we'll be seeing too many A332 operators in that group) will probably have to wait 1, 2 or 3 years after the beginning of the production to even get one.

Which gives Airbus 1-3 years extra to have something available for them.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
dynkrisolo
Posts: 1849
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:55 pm


Than the 767. All Boeing's numbers are relative to the 767. Not the A330.


FWIW, the 764ER has a fuel capacity of 23,980 US Gal, while the 332 has a fuel capacity of 36,750 US Gal. The 332 has an upper hand in the market not because of its lower fuel burn than the 764ER, but because of its capability to carry more payload and fly longer than the 764ER. If the 7e7 will burn 20% less fuel than the 767 on a per seat basis, it will burn at least 20% less fuel than the 332.



What magazines? Every one I've read is right there with Airbus modifying the 330 and getting right back to the same basic economics.


Then you didn't read enough. It has been reported by many. Your impression is what Airbus claims, not the truth. The fuel saving of the 7e7 comes from at least four areas that I can remember:

1. engine
2. lighter weight
3. improved aerodynamics
4. system improvements

The engine is responsible for around half of the fuel saving.

[Edited 2003-12-21 14:58:24]
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:01 pm

Dynkrisolo, when you say (aimed at Gigneil) "Your impression is what Airbus claims, not the truth", wouldn't the reverse of that be that your own opinion is what Boeing claims, not the truth?

Because, after all, we'll have to wait until the 7e7 is actually being built or actually flying to know how much it'll be ahead of the others...
Smile - it confuses people!
 
LastBaron
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:55 am

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:44 pm

Neil, RJ, Concordeboy and other darlings!

Loved your slurs on my intelligence. Considering that I am a member of Mensa and can probably outthink you in my dreams (and in 4 languages fluently no less), hate to disappoint you re my "brightness." As for "everyone" here knowing that I am "not too bright," please be aware of the "respect ratings" in our profiles. The originator of the slur (RJ) has "0". Nuff said.

Concordeboy, you are an arrogant little wimp. Happy flying on your favorite airplane! Bwahahahaha.

As for making this forum a pleasant place, don't delude yourself. THis place has not been pleasant in ages - it is a flaming ground, obviously and also the hotbed of nationalism for disgruntled Republican Americans who live in fear that their beloved Fuehrer Bush will lose the next election and thus relegate them back to where they rightfully belong - the back of the bus and ignominy.
 
zak
Posts: 1926
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:13 am

if the 7e7 isnt more efficient then the a330 then boeing seriously "screwed it" since it has been 10+ years now.
but in regard to 20% more efficiency? i can only doubt that. not only is the 7e7 smaller then the a332 which doesnt help it become more efficient but also due to the fact that most of the boeing improvements except the no bleed whatever systems+engines are not as groundbreaking as it might sound.
of course they will use composite materials at places like cargo doors, overhead bins, pressure bulkheads, maybe upper wing surface etc.
that surely helps weight, but overhead bins are already composite material on most planes (incl. boeing i bet, airbus i know they are). after all i see a 7-12% of seat mile improvement on the 332 for the 7e7 stretch.
the 7e7 comes right between a complete model cycle of the airbus planes, so after the 7e7 sells airbus launches its next generation, then boeing etc.
the only problem i see with boeing in the long run is that they do not have a coherent family yet, something that airbus has been emphasizing from the start of the a320. not only in the cockpit but wherever possible.
boeing is going that route aswell now they will have a common flightdeck between the 7e7 and 777, but a coherent family throughout all plane sizes does surely help it a bit. not the most important thing but certainly better to have commonality then not having it.




p.s.
@lastbaron
i did agree with your initial posting mostly when you posted on the 7e7.
but you just ruined all your credit with your mensa self gloss elitism.
noone cares about respect rating or posting numbers. noone cares in which oh so fluffy club you got a membership in. you might want to head over to flyertalk where you will find tons of other people who will not also share their club affiliation with you but will also not hesitate to mention their membership in 50 frequent flyer programs and 43534 hotel chain platinum vip clubs.
10=2
 
LastBaron
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:55 am

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:17 am

Sorry to disappoint you, Zak. My mention of Mensa was a direct response to previous posters attacks on my intelligence. Have to use what I can to counter such silly notions. Echt, tut mir leid.

Also, Flyertalk's forums arew no worse than these are here and much less encumbered my the many low-class morons I have met here.

[Edited 2003-12-21 16:36:28]

 
zak
Posts: 1926
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Mon Dec 22, 2003 1:45 am

you know, referring to mensa when someone calls you moron or something doesnt counter his statement but back it up.
but as we all know social intelligence is not in mensas requirements, which surely contributes to its not so fortunate reputation amongst everyone not in mensa, especially amongst people who do qualify for it.
10=2
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Mon Dec 22, 2003 1:48 am

Loved your slurs on my intelligence.

I was slurring ConcordeBoy's intelligence and agreeing with you, genius.

N
 
zak
Posts: 1926
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Mon Dec 22, 2003 2:00 am

@gigineil
well he doesnt get it  Sad
@lastbaron
after all you started calling people arrogant and left the aviation context. i dont want to continue with that so i guess we just leave it at that. i will not join in your mudslinging in whatever language.
i will not post anything in reply to this anymore since i think it is inappropiate and not contributing to anything and hope you understand that.
10=2
 
Scorpio
Posts: 5045
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Mon Dec 22, 2003 2:00 am

Zak, Du bist echt Deutsch und typisch arrogant. Ich bin gebuertiger Berliner und habe nicht einmal eine Schnauze wie deine!

Pot, kettle anyone?

Seriously, leave the attitude at home, so this ridiculous egotripping charade can stop. You're not better than anyone on here, no matter what fancy little club you belong to. So just stop it, o r confine it to kindergarten where this crap belongs.
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Mon Dec 22, 2003 4:05 am

Lastbaron......Drop me an email if you'd like to talk politics.

dynkrisolo, I totally agree.....The real advantage of the A-330-200 is its LD-3 containter capacity. AFAIK, the seat rating costs of the 764 are lower than the A332 but the A-330 has almost double the cargo capacity.

Zak, the 7E7 stretch is being desgined specifically in response to the A332. By the time it comes out it will have a significant operating advantage over the A332.

About the cycles, that isn't completely true....Airbus will have just finished huge development costs on the A380 and it will not be in good shape to start a brand new design....Most likely they will make some modification to the A300 or A330 (IMO, this won't match the 7e7 but we will have to wait and see on this one).

Also, Boeing has stated that the 7e7 will be the basis for all future Boeing planes (inculding a 737NG replacement down the line)...You are right, it isn't the most important thing but Boeing will have it in the future anyhow.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
dynkrisolo
Posts: 1849
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Mon Dec 22, 2003 4:47 am

Leskova:


Dynkrisolo, when you say (aimed at Gigneil) "Your impression is what Airbus claims, not the truth", wouldn't the reverse of that be that your own opinion is what Boeing claims, not the truth?


Not quite. Although the savings I stated were from Boeing's officials, they provided coherent and reasonable explanations of where the saving came from. Is it undeniable that the aircraft will be lighter? Is it undeniable Boeing would more than likely have found new ways to make aerodynamic improvements? And so on, so on. When Airbus claimed they could achieve the same savings by putting the 7e7 engines. By putting the 7e7 engines will save some fuel, but it wouldn't make the airplane lighter and so on. Don't you feel that it is very suspicious when Airbus chose to address only one aspect? As I stated before, the fuel capacity of the 332 is a good indication that the 332 is not fuel miser. Airbus would have a lot of room to make up.


Because, after all, we'll have to wait until the 7e7 is actually being built or actually flying to know how much it'll be ahead of the others...


This is true for any new aircraft development. But the 7e7 is a clean sheet of design while the 332 is based on the 333 which was launched in 1987. If Boeing can't take advantage of the 17 years of difference, then either we as a human kind have reached a technology plateau (which we all know that it is not the case) or Boeing designers are extremely incompetent (which I seriously doubt it would be the case).

Zak:


not only is the 7e7 smaller then the a332


The 7e7 stretch is not smaller than the 332.


of course they will use composite materials at places like ...


The whole wing box will be made of composite. This will be the first commercial aircraft with composite wing.


but a coherent family throughout all plane sizes


May I remind you to ask yourself who first came up with the family concept? Have you heard of the 707/727/737/747 family? Airbus's family is more current than Boeing's because the 320 and 330/340 were launched within three years of each other. Airbus was able to launch two completely new products within three years because the European governments financed most of the development in the 80s. Eventually, Airbus will be in the same position as Boeing is right now that they can only be launching products selectively and for a much longer interval. Also, do you think Airbus's family doesn't have any holes? What about the 300/310?
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Mon Dec 22, 2003 5:00 am

Dynkrisolo, I'd say from your last post that both of our opinions are actually not really that far apart... I'm probably just seeing things a bit more from the Airbus side of things...  Big grin

But that won't stop me from trying to get onto a 7E7 as soon as possible, once they're in the air...

Have you heard of the 707/727/737/747 family?
Sure that the 747 is part of the family?

... because the European governments financed most of the development in the 80s
Eeek... please let's not open that can of worms again... I admit that this specific part is true, but proceeding down that road will probably make this thread rather unpleasant...

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
sllevin
Posts: 3314
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Mon Dec 22, 2003 5:02 am

Going on the math, the 7E7 and A332 will be extremely close in economics and no amount of bullshit slung here can fix that.

Check the differences between the 767 and the 330. You'd be surprised how important those "extremely close" differences are. The old adage is that airlines would sell their proverbial mothers for 2%.

Steve
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Mounted Police To Enhance IAH Airport Security

Mon Dec 22, 2003 5:57 am

dynkrisolo, and if they do put the 7E7 engines on the A-332 they would have to redesign most of the 332s systems which could add even more weight.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 14115
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Mon Dec 22, 2003 6:34 am


Leaders from the Boeing Co. and state and local governments on Friday signed the key documents committing Boeing to building the 7E7 Dreamliner in Everett -- and committing Washington taxpayers to contributing $3.2 billion to Boeing and its partners over the next 20 years.


Looks like downright State Support for Boeing to me. $3.2 billion... Or can someone explain that it is not the case ?

http://www.heraldnet.com/Stories/03/12/20/17926878.cfm
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
dynkrisolo
Posts: 1849
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:33 am


Looks like downright State Support for Boeing to me. $3.2 billion... Or can someone explain that it is not the case ?


First, you might want to find out what kind of tax breaks Airbus might be getting from Toulouse and Hamburg, before you jump to any conclusion. Second, the Washington State was competing with many other states for the final assembly site. If Washington had to give $3.2 billion tax breaks to get Boeing's business, it means Washington was an expensive place to do business before the tax breaks. The Washington state government is simply trying to make Washington a more business friendly and competitive place.
 
F4N
Posts: 507
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2000 11:37 pm

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:48 am

To all:

I am really not surprised at the initial Airbus party line regarding 7e7; after all, would not your first attempts to minimize the impact of a new competitive product be to dismiss it as being an "also-ran"? Standard coporate goobledygook for PR purposes to try and minimise client interest and nothing more. The folks at Airbus are not stupid. Behind the company facade of dismissive disconcern, you can bet that they are doing some serious thinking and analysis. Airbus is fully cognizant of what their own new product launches have done to Boeing's market share and that they are fully aware that Boeing's purpose and timing were shrewdly calculated to adress the weakest points in Boeing's line while Airbus is fully preoccupied with A380 development.

I find it difficult to believe that there are people who actually believe that A332 will stand in against 7e7. I do not believe that the people on the worldwide Boeing design team have invested the time and capital to produce a
"me-too" version of A332. Rather foolish, don't you think? Imagine going to an airline and presenting a new design that mimics something you already have. 7e7 is no more a re-hash of A332 than A332 was a re-hash of 767.
I rather suspect that Boeing's sobering experiences in trying to market 764 against a clearly superior a/c was not lost upon them. You do not design to yesterday's expectations.

I fully agree with those who think A332 will be alright for awhile. It is a fine platform with an extensive customer base. But it is exactly that base that Boeing will be seeking to win over and one which will be fully capable of judging the collective merits of each. In that case, whatever your product or business, you only go in when the chances of success are good. Anything else is tantamount to closing the doors.

regards,

F4N
 
sandiaman
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:53 am

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:01 am

This week's Aviation Week and Space Technology reported a couple of interesting items. A lot has been said about the 7e7 performance compared with the A330-200, but I was surprised by the following quote:

"Besides providing flexibility from short- to extremely long-haul flights, the 7E7's business case is built on drastic reduction in operating and ownership costs. Its fuel efficiency is to be 20% better than Boeing's new 777-300ER, said Vice President Walter Gillette, the 7E7's engineering manager. It is to burn less fuel on a seat/mile basis than Airbus' A380. And it will help airlines build profits with new sources of revenue, such as doubling the 6-8% incremental freight they are able to squeeze in beside passenger luggage. "

Later in the article...

"Over the past several months, Airbus officials have tweaked Boeing by suggesting they can easily adapt the new 7E7 engines to their A330-200. But Leahy downplayed that possibility last week."

"I am not sure that we would need new engines as they would enhance operating costs by no more than 2%," he said."


When reading the article, I was very surprised by the claim that the 7e7 would burn less fuel per seat mile than the A380! I wonder if this is really true...it almost sounds like an error. Aviation Week is a pretty reliable source. It would be a tremendous breakthrough to design a smaller plane with lower seat-mile costs than larger planes.
 
sandiaman
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:53 am

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Mon Dec 22, 2003 2:40 pm

The full article can be found at the following link:

http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_awst_story.jsp?id=news/12223wna.xml

-Mark
 
cloudy
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Mon Dec 22, 2003 2:52 pm

When reading the article, I was very surprised by the claim that the 7e7 would burn less fuel per seat mile than the A380! I wonder if this is really true...it almost sounds like an error. Aviation Week is a pretty reliable source. It would be a tremendous breakthrough to design a smaller plane with lower seat-mile costs than larger planes
--------

There is a school of thought that says that most of the efficiency of the A-380 will be due to size alone. There will be some gains from new engines and lighter materials but these will be largely canceled out by the need for a heavy 2nd deck and more aisle space. If this is true, Airbus could be in trouble.

Also...is it possible that the "bleedless engine" is being demanded by Boeing not to increase efficiency, but to make the new 7E7 engine incompatible with the A330? If this is so, they must be getting ideas from Microsoft.....
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:27 am

The new 7E7 engines can be put on the A330 but it would require a massive redesign of the A330s systems. The new 7e7 engine will increase efficiency by about 10%, the other 10% will come from other stuff such as the composite materials.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:52 am

Or they could just create a bleedful version of the same engine.

N
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: 717-Doomed?

Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:35 am

Wouldn't a bleedful engine decrease efficiency though? My understanding was that with the bleedless engine all of the available fuel burn would go towads powering the aircraft......If some of the fuel burn on this new engine went towards other stuff, already the engine wouldn't be as efficient right?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
cloudy
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Tue Dec 23, 2003 5:06 pm

Wouldn't a bleedful engine decrease efficiency though? My understanding was that with the bleedless engine all of the available fuel burn would go towads powering the aircraft......If some of the fuel burn on this new engine went towards other stuff, already the engine wouldn't be as efficient right?
------

You have to power the other stuff in the plane some way. Energy is never free. Unless Boeing has some sort of battery or super APU (unlikely), most of that energy has to come from the engines. A bleedless engine would simply mean a different method is being used to extract that power from the engines. Whether that method would be more efficient or not is the big question. Unless they are doing it to make the new engines less compatible with the A330, Boeing thinks the bleedless method would be more efficient (that is, it would loose less energy in the conversion process than a "bleedfull" system would).

But either way, the power to run aircraft systems would come from burning fuel. The superior energy density of jet fuel means that any other method would probably carry a large weight penalty. The way to burn jet fuel to run aircraft systems without adding too much complexity is to do it in the engines and extract that energy from the engines.
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 14115
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:30 pm

As far as I have seen, Boeing has nowhere confirmed the engines will be bleedless. Bleedair is used to power the pneumatic systems (flaps, controls) electrical power generators, hydraulics and Airco.

I think it will be complecated to replace the pneumatics with more efficient hydraulics/electro powerdrives..

I find it likely Boeing will come some kind of compromise ... a "mostly bleedless engine"..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
sandiaman
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:53 am

RE: Airbus On 7E7 Launch : "No Response Is Needed"

Wed Dec 24, 2003 4:13 pm

Also...is it possible that the "bleedless engine" is being demanded by Boeing not to increase efficiency, but to make the new 7E7 engine incompatible with the A330? If this is so, they must be getting ideas from Microsoft.....
-----------

From what I've read, the main motive for Boeing's move to electrical systems not powered by bleed air is related to 1) available controls technology, and 2) procurement costs of such systems. In the Aviation Week article mentioned above, Walt Gillette refers to [bleed air-driven] systems as "botique" systems--expensive because they are unique to aerospace (much like expensive alloys of aluminum).

A quote from the article:

"System improvements on the 7E7 include a 5,000-psi. hydraulic system and the use of a variable-frequency electrical power distribution system that is generated from the engine shafts rather than bleed air. Bleed air is an example of another "boutique" system, Gillette said.

Variable-frequency systems are now attractive because the control technology is improving so rapidly, said Michael K. Sinnett, the 7E7's chief engineer for systems. He said current systems waste 100 hp. at cruise and cause engine temperatures to drop."

-M



[Edited 2003-12-24 08:21:44]

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: amc737, amdiesen, Baidu [Spider], conaly, doug, EISHN, ELBOB, FlyingHonu001, Google Adsense [Bot], guillermohs, jasoncrh, kdaman, luisjumper, n7190jr, OAHU747, PBerry, RalXWB, Rifitto, SASViking, tomcat, VHZNE, Wildlander and 222 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos