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atcboy73
Topic Author
Posts: 1084
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2001 10:09 am

More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:41 am

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/031218/dath034_1.html

Looks like your getting some more flights, and an official announcement that AA will move everything to C.
 
atcboy73
Topic Author
Posts: 1084
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2001 10:09 am

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:46 am

Ok, does this mean the props will stay in the B councourse?
 
Guest

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:01 am

Yes, apparently the prop operations will stay in B. A few prop flights have been known to use D lately... namely the ATRs going to XNA/MKE on an occasional basis.

This is good news for STL, of course. I know that OKC fought for return of STL non-stops. Kansas City is in a similar position, to the extent that the Admirals Club workers there are getting all members to sign petitions with the number of times they'd use that route each year.

STL-LAX.... this route is really growing, but I suppose some AA capacity will be lost when it goes to all MD-80s.

Great that mainline DCA flights are back... this is an important business route for the St. Louis area, plus those who still connect through STL (many of those short-range AA Connection flights).
 
LambertMan
Posts: 1744
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:26 pm

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:42 am

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ME! I knew DCA could handle some mainline flights, and its good to see that AA is encouraged. Man this just makes my day, I am one happy camper.
BTW, I know a congressman was lobbying to get the OKC, TUL-STL routes re-instated, guess it worked. Big thumbs up

[Edited 2003-12-18 22:04:16]
 
LambertMan
Posts: 1744
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RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 8:49 am

Mmmmm...no thoughts or replies from the AA-STL haters? Darn. Big thumbs up
 
TLHFLA
Posts: 492
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 10:19 am

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 8:57 am

Good news for STL! The STL-DCA route was definitely a route that should not have been downgraded to all RJ and I guess AA sees the demand to bring back some mainline flights.

Hopefully, with some space opening up in D, new airlines will enter the market. I am surprised that AirTran hasn't made any announcements. I though they would be one of the first airlines to announce new service to STL. I am also surprised that Delta hasn't increased capacity to/from ATL. I thought the 732s would be replaced with all MD-80s or even a 738 or two...
Bill in ATL
 
MCIB757
Posts: 276
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:44 pm

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:02 am

This is good news, but also I think they should bring back the MCI-STL route. And its good to hear people petition to bring it back, I hope they will.

Tom
"God bless catastrophe..."
 
PUDFW
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 3:45 pm

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:14 am

So is AA selling back all of Concourse D to the Airport? How does that arrangement work? Can they sublease the gates out? Just wondering if they have plans way in the future to increase capacity back at STL as air trafic continues to pick up. Or do you think they will be satisfied with only additional growth in Concourse C? Anyone have any information on how many gates they went from to how many they will operate now? Also I haven't heard anything about implementing the "rolling hub" into STL. But I would assume should they want more capacity they could squeeze it out of C.

PUDFW
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2844
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RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:20 am

Great news for STL. Still don't like AA LambertMan  Smile

It's hard to like them when you had so many friends who used to work for TWA get the axe. The B concourse will be empty soon as well. I've heard that TSA plans on removing all of their props from service by late next year. Leaving just Corporate Express flying J-32 and SkyWest's B-1900 flights. But that much time is way too much to speculate in this enviornment. It could all change by then
DMI
 
LambertMan
Posts: 1744
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RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:22 am

I would assume all future growth will be from C unless traffic picks way back up and STL becomes very useful as a reliever again. It would seem like to me that Mainline on the north side of C, and RJ's on the south should work nicely w/ all the props at B. I think that we may eventually see a few more Mainline routes brought back, and maybe a destination or two (PDX and SMF hopefully). I wish they'd rennovate D while there isn't anyone using it. Big thumbs up
 
PVD757
Posts: 3285
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RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:06 am

GREAT news for STL! BOS, LGA, DCA should be ALL mainline. 1 or 2 JFK flights (even on rj's) should remain as well for those int'l connex.
 
Air1727
Posts: 318
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:57 am

RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:45 am

AAL doesn't own any of the gates except the original three on Concourse A before they acquired Trans World. All of the D gates are owned by Lambert. Exactly like LambertMan said; front side and end of C for mainline, and back alley for regional is a perfect scenario.
In the Alaska bush I'd rather have a two hour bladder and three hours of gas than vice versa.
 
N777UA
Posts: 566
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RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:55 am

Which concourse(s) used to be TWA?
 
LambertMan
Posts: 1744
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:26 pm

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:02 am

B (props), C (DC-9, 727, MD-80, 757, L-10, 747), D mainly (757, DC-9, MD-80, and for awhile 717). However, AA has converted many of the D gates to RJ gates since they took over.
 
Air1727
Posts: 318
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:57 am

RE: Just A Few STL Route Updates....

Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:06 am

During Trans World's tenure, B was actually both commuter and mainline (DC-9 and 727-200). Concourse C was everything; front side and end gates were the only ones with proper clearance to handle Group III and IV aircraft. D was only DC-9-10/30/80, 727-200, 717-200, and 757-200; as it was originally built for Ozark.
In the Alaska bush I'd rather have a two hour bladder and three hours of gas than vice versa.
 
atrude777
Posts: 4412
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:37 am

WOO-HOOO!!!!!!


YEAH MAN!!!!!

I THANK GOD FOR STL-OKC BACK!! Now I can visit my cousin w/o having to change planes!! yeah man!!! I LOVE AA NOW!! I think its awesome STL is starting to become strong once again! and its proved by those added flights. Man this makes my day too and lambertman-merry x-mas to em too!!!


Alex.
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
BHMNONREV
Posts: 1237
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RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:55 am

I would assume all future growth will be from C unless traffic picks way back up and STL becomes very useful as a reliever again. It would seem like to me that Mainline on the north side of C, and RJ's on the south should work nicely w/ all the props at B. I think that we may eventually see a few more Mainline routes brought back, and maybe a destination or two (PDX and SMF hopefully). I wish they'd rennovate D while there isn't anyone using it.

"C" would very easily handle any small to moderate growth from AA, what is there, around 25+ or so gates that actually have a jetway?? And IMHO, the props at "B" could easily be moved to the first few gates on the right side as you enter "C", which would enable Griggs to renovate both "B" and "D" simultaneously. You could put 5-6 gates in "B" when complete, which would make an attractive spot for someone looking to start or add some new flights. Now do any of you guys have any cash laying around to help Leonard get started???  Smile
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4115
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 2:48 pm

Good to see OKC back. They were always running good loads on the 5 (usually 6) daily MD-80s up until the point they were dumped. Southwest has shown they are uninterested in going above their lousy 2 flights a day in the market. Great Plains has at least tried to reintroduce some of the service to levels it once was. This move by American is just another testimate to the strength of this route...one that shouldn't have been dropped in the first place.
 
LHR001
Posts: 966
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:56 am

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 2:51 pm

Will American Airlines keep -

St. Lousi to New York/JFK
St. Louis to Ontario
St. Louis to Reno
St. Louis to Sacramento
St. Louis to San Jose


If anyone knows that would be wonderful!


LHR001
 
Guest

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 2:57 pm

Ummm Antonio....

Some of those weren't even flown in the first place, like STL-RNO, so I don't see why they'd bring them back....
 
Delta767300ER
Posts: 2436
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:12 pm

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:20 pm

Excellent, I am glad that AA isnt abandoning STL. For some reason I love STL and it has a special place in my heart. I had a lot of good TWA memories their and now I am looking forward to start some AA memories at STL.

-Delta767300ER
 
sprxflySWA
Posts: 587
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RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:22 pm

Pilotpip:
Skywest has never flown BE1900s. Did you mean Skyway/YX*?
 
LV
Posts: 1546
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 6:02 am

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:50 pm

Could STL-OKC be a response to Great Plains coming into BLV?
 
qqflyboy
Posts: 1635
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RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:54 pm

Pilotpip...

I know this has been hashed out a thousand+ times, but since you bring it up, I'd like your opinion. Where would your TWA friends be now if AA hadn't bought TWA? I've worked out the scenarios and don't see how they would have ended up any different. But I am open to ideas, and am sure you have plenty. Thanks for the insight.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
COAB767
Posts: 1313
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:32 pm

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:00 pm

Lambertman:
Im with you. My best friend who lives in MO is a former TW F/A and the both of us can't stand AA.
Continental Micronesia: "Fly With The Warmth Of Paradise"
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2844
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:47 pm

SprxflySWA,

Yeah, I meant SkyWay. They use the east terminal and fly the B-1900.

Qqflyboy,

While I understand this fact, we will never know if TWA's employees would have jobs still or not. Simple truth is, when a company takes over another company and more or less fires all the people from the previous company it's taken pretty hard by the community. While I understand that it would have happened anyway, I don't appreciate how a lot of hard working and dedicated people were thrown by the wayside at the first possible exuse. I also don't appreciate how Carty and all his cronies were pocketing huge amounts of cash at the expense of the AA employess. As a result, I won't fly American Airlines. People here won't dislike an airline because of poor service, I don't see why I can't dislike an airline because I literally know dozens of people who were laid off by one and probably will never see their former jobs again.
DMI
 
LHR001
Posts: 966
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:56 am

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:53 pm

ProudtoFlyAA-


You Said-

Ummm Antonio....

Some of those weren't even flown in the first place, like STL-RNO, so I don't see why they'd bring them back....


The Fact-

TWA flew the route with 2 daily MD-80 flights. At one point the service continued to Sacramento from Reno!


Next!


LHR001
 
qqflyboy
Posts: 1635
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:47 pm

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:25 pm

Pilotpip, thanks for the thoughts. I am an American Airlines flight attendant, and previously worked at Reno Air. I feel terribly for everyone from TWA and AA that have lost their jobs in the past two years, and am very thankful I still have mine. Take solice in knowing Carty is gone, as I do, and think positively for the future. Boycotting AA because of the way employees were/are treated seems just, but remember, that will only hurt the employees that remain.

Lhr001... TWA did serve RNO, but discontinued the service in late '99 or early 2000, before AA bought them.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2844
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:53 pm

Qqflyboy,

I think that you are the first person that has given a respectable response to my stance. Many AA employees are very belligerent about the hard feelings. They seem to take a "better him than me" stance. Most threads that have had statements regarding the buyout have only hardened my stance. You are now on my respected users list.

Will my attitude change? In time I hope that it does. If AA calls back employees and adds flights as the economy improves it will change fast.

Now to add a little more personal side to this story. I worked at a store that was near STL. A large number of our customers were TWA employees who lived in the area. Just after the furloughs started, I lost my job because of a sharp decline in sales. Indirectly, it has affected my life as well. I hope that any AA employees out there know that this in no way is meant to be taken as an insult or a slap in the face because you aren't the ones making the calls. I would never wish any ill will on any airline. However, when something bad hits close to home you take notice.
DMI
 
qqflyboy
Posts: 1635
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:47 pm

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:06 pm

Pilotpip...

While I've been critical of those in the past that slammed AA for the outcome of STL and the employees throughout the TWA system, I have never once lost site that real people, like you and me, were being affected in terrible ways, whether it be avoidable or unavoidable. I am now based in STL and am proud to work with the TWA employees that remain, and enjoy their professionalism and optimism, despite all that's happened. Even though I live in Las Vegas, I recently turned down a transfer to SFO because I enjoy being based in STL that much. AAers outside STL think I'm crazy, but those of us there realize we've got a good thing going, that TWA had a good thing going, and we're glad to keep it quiet. I have to say though, this past summer nearly killed me, and that means something knowing I live in Vegas. The humidity just about made me melt!
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2844
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 8:04 pm

Yeah, STL is a great town. Thanks for proving my "it's a dry heat" point that none of my college friends from the airrid parts get Smile

I'm going to sorely miss this place when I graduate from school because it's too hard for a pilot to find a job doing anything here right now. I've lived here all of my 22 years. Lived 3 miles from Lambert for 17 of those years and have worked on the north side fueling for nearly two years. Aviation, as well as this airport are in my blood, or maybe it's just exposure to Jet-A. I really hope that AA does see that they have room to grow here, and I hope that Lambert's bigwigs can see that it's time to make this airport attractive to travelers again. I would love to fly for an airline that has a crew base in St. Louis some day.
DMI
 
Okie
Posts: 4156
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:31 pm

Good news for OKC-STL for sure.
I had been busy getting things wound up for the Holidays lately and noticed the announcement on the news this morning. The news station had a nice picture of a 757 in AA colors when I looked up, that is streching an ERJ a bit. That shaves about a day off a round trip towards the midwest and saves a trip through DFW.
Okie does not know nuttin, but suspects a lot.
I suspect the price of the tickets just went up between OKC-STL to increase yields for the priviledge of flying direct.
 
Guest

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:45 am

TWA flew the route with 2 daily MD-80 flights. At one point the service continued to Sacramento from Reno!

And you honestly believe there's enough O & D traffic from STL to support such service..... or is this just a random idea like most of your prattle?


Next!
 
qqflyboy
Posts: 1635
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:47 pm

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Sat Dec 20, 2003 1:00 am

When I was searching the internet to find the exact date TWA stopped STL-RNO service, I came upon an interview with Krys Bart, chairwoman for Reno-Tahoe Int'l Airport. In the interview, she stated TWA had high load factors to Reno from STL, but that the per seat mile cost was 9.7 cents and the flights were only generating 7.9 cents per ASM. The traffic was there, just not the revenue environment TWA needed to make money.

Without a hub now in STL, though, I don't think AA could fill the planes, let alone make money.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
LHR001
Posts: 966
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:56 am

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Sat Dec 20, 2003 5:55 am

ProudtoFlyAA,

QQFLYBOY has stated a rather nice summation of the issue regarding the service to Reno.

Remember that during the time of TWA.... St. Louis was its primary domestic base, while JFK was its primary international base. The traffic into St. Louis would feed all points East! The Reno flights at one time continued from Reno to Ft. Lauderdale and to Newark. Both are very hefty tourist and business destinations respectively!

ProudtoFlyAA, if it was not for American Airlines raping TWA the service would still be in place. The service never proved to be having low loads, not did it ever prove to be loosing money. The problem is that when you drop a bank of connecting flights as American Airlines did... you are also dropping the connecting traffic as well!

Look no further than American Airlines.... American Airlines has single handidly wiped Reno off of the map when it comes to air service with the aquisition of both TWA and Reno Air. The past routes that American Airlines has taken from Reno include-

RNO-STL

RNO-DTW
RNO-COS
RNO-LAS
RNO-LAX
RNO-ORD
RNO-PDX
RNO-PHX
RNO-SAN
RNO-SEA
RNO-SFO
RNO-SJC
RNO-SNA
RNO-TUS
RNO-YVR

Do also remember the American Airlines also took from St. Louis five of the most prized routes in the TWA system!

STL-LGW
STL-CDG
STL-HNL
STL-OGG
STL-JFK




Regards,


LHR001
 
Guest

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Sat Dec 20, 2003 6:44 am

Remember that during the time of TWA.... St. Louis was its primary domestic base, while JFK was its primary international base. The traffic into St. Louis would feed all points East! The Reno flights at one time continued from Reno to Ft. Lauderdale and to Newark. Both are very hefty tourist and business destinations respectively!

Yes, living in STL and being an elite tier flyer on TWA, I know how the hub worked. However, as you point out, the connecting traffic is no longer there and STL flights are not needed as a.) there is not the O & D for the service at STL, b.) there is not the connecting traffic at STL, c.) RNO-DFW flights do just as good a job.


ProudtoFlyAA, if it was not for American Airlines raping TWA the service would still be in place. The service never proved to be having low loads, not did it ever prove to be loosing money. The problem is that when you drop a bank of connecting flights as American Airlines did... you are also dropping the connecting traffic as well!

I see that you selectively read the other posts, stating statistics on the yield versus cost of these flights. These flights could run full and still not be making money. TWA dropped the RNO flights before the American Airlines takeover/merger.... so don't blame American. TWA dropped the route because it wasn't making money... sure it was full, but didn't make money. So what if they lost the low yield connecting traffic to places like DCA or LGA... they replaced it with higher yield traffic like local O & D or heading to midwestern cities like LNK or DSM. I believe reading in several sources that Omaha was one of TWA's highest yielding domestic cities.

Looking back in some TWA timetables... I had to go back to 1998 to find Reno service... long before the AA deal was announced.... looks like three dailies to RNO from STL, with one returning as a redeye. Two continued on... to Detroit and Cleveland.... wow, sounds like imperative service there.


Look no further than American Airlines.... American Airlines has single handidly wiped Reno off of the map when it comes to air service with the aquisition of both TWA and Reno Air. The past routes that American Airlines has taken from Reno include-

Oh boy, another one of your famously irrelevant lists!

American, with higher costs, couldn't compete well with airlines like Southwest on the west coast and dropped the routes to focus resources elsewhere.


Do also remember the American Airlines also took from St. Louis five of the most prized routes in the TWA system!

And yet another list. Yeah, they were prized by TWA.... but the yield wasn't there still and AA didn't need them. With a half dozen flights a day from Chicago to London, AA didn't need one from St. Louis, which was primarily connecting traffic anyway. They used the slot for an extra DFW flight, which the same connecting feed is using just through a different hub.

Besides, remember that if AA didn't take over TWA, STL wouldn't even have those 200 or so remaining AA/AA Connection flights today because the airline would be out of business.

You also need to learn the difference between AA Eagle and AA Connection.
 
LHR001
Posts: 966
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:56 am

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:07 am

ProudtoFlyAA,


And you also need to see why American Airlines is regarded as the "pillager" of the airline industry.


TWA had a great base of very outstanding and company proud employees. American Airlines has them as well... However pride in 2003 is a lot differenct from pride in 1990. People were hired by an airline and looked forward to a lifetime with the airline. The way the airlines have hired in the past 3 years are so..seems more appealing to the "paycheck" crowd! In turn service and respectability go out the window! Now you see American Airlines and their Senior Flight Attendants... shaking their heads and saying "Look what has become of this airline"!


The listing of routes American Airlines droppped from Reno was to show the impact that American Airlines had on the economy of Reno and Northern Nevada when they dumped the city!


LHR001
 
Guest

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:13 am

The listing of routes American Airlines droppped from Reno was to show the impact that American Airlines had on the economy of Reno and Northern Nevada when they dumped the city!

Yeah, and if they were high yield and an outstanding success, why hasn't another airline stepped in?


TWA had a great base of very outstanding and company proud employees.

I'm quite aware of this, as I know many of them and are related to a few. The situation with TWA was unfortunate. The economic situation changed after the merger was set in motion and some things could not be helped. For these same economic conditions, TWA would not have survived on its own.
 
Logos
Posts: 610
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2000 10:47 pm

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:22 am

The economic situation changed after the merger was set in motion and some things could not be helped. For these same economic conditions, TWA would not have survived on its own.

Absolutely right. You know, this hatred toward AA is fairly misplaced, as far as I can see. AA was essentially a white knight for TWA and that any of those "very outstanding and company proud employees" still have a job at all with something approaching their seniority in place is a direct result of AA's takeover. I'm sure if AA had it all to do over again, they would have spared themselves the trouble and expense of purchasing TWA and, probably, Reno Air. And both of them would have gone the way of Vanguard after 9/11 or (in TWAs case) before.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando
Too many types flown to list
 
LambertMan
Posts: 1744
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:26 pm

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:38 am

Lhr, as usual you are fighting a battle that is already lost. Give up, proudtoflyaa has chopped down your replies no matter which way you go about it. Big thumbs up
 
LHR001
Posts: 966
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:56 am

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:44 am

American Airlines a "White Knight"??????


No......


LHR001
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:44 am

Maybe he will post under another one of his allies, maybe the personality that likes AA.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Guest

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:46 am

No......

Oh come now dearest Antonio, why don't you educate us?
 
spyglass
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:17 pm

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Sat Dec 20, 2003 10:50 am

Well, this has turned into quite a thread...a lot of common sense, some actual facts (and factoids), dependable info and well-presented conclusions. Then of course to make it interesting and to stir up emotions, some sour grapes, misinformed statements and just downright silliness. One thing to realize...airlines and the attendant things that go with them (no pun intended) really aren't fun anymore. 9/11 put the quash on what had already been slowly eroding from an enthusiast standpoint for probably 10 yrs. And frankly, it's no fun to fly anymore...I don't mean the actual flight itself, rather all the hassles leading up to it, the cost-cutting degradation of service, the seeming increased chances of being seated next to a genuinely unpleasant individual and the overall mood at airports and on board. The way the fleets are being "rationalized" and the determination of route structures have largely taken away the former joys of this hobby. Doesn't mean interesting things don't still go on, but the glow is gone. How could it be brought back?....reconstitute the CAB? Ok, enuf of that....on STL...official reasons were given why STL was being taken down as a primary hub....virtually all were bottom-line oriented. Employee reductions were also announced regrettably...fleet retirements were explained to management's satisfaction. As any clever accountant will tell you, numbers can be made to say whatever you want them to say. Looking just beneath the surface of the hyperbole, the odor of politics lurks....my gut feeling says that AA was either pressured or at least coerced to let STL fade as a hub. Who would (or could) do such a thing? And what would be their motive? Who would stand to gain by taking all (or most) of the STL connection traffic, if they just happened to be dropping megamillions on more buildings and peoplemovers? Numbers of pax moving thru an airport and numbers of planes in & out are what generates the big $, not to mention the "big numbers" that go toward busiest airport rankings ("How we ever gonna get 'head uv Ahlanna if y'all sendin' all them folks up thar ta Sant Lewie....c'mon, WE need them inta here! Never mind we kin barely handle what we got right now")...(even the hint of a little weather and the whole slot system swirls down the toilet quickly...and rough weather LIVES down there). Adding more flights will alleviate this? I think anyone here with even a modicum of air operations savvy has picked up the essence of my grousing on this topic....on to something else. The emlopyee corps at TW was probably the most resilient of any airline (or company, for that matter) ever. The amazing amount of nonsense and just plain h#*@?+!&t they put up with from HRH thru one Carl I-con (the only individual who could out-Lorenzo Lorenzo) is a study in teamwork, mutual respect, persistence and never-let-it-get-me-down attitude. What might have happened there had AA not made the buyout is open to speculation, but the reality of traffic conditions and fuel prices (and the fact that TW had just flat run out of sources of financing) pretty well sealed the doom. Of course, a crystal ball might have produced a different outcome, but no one has one, do they? AA raping TW?...that's a little strong. AA's marketing and route planning depts tend to be very analytical and for the most part doesn't let someone's favorites or pet ideas get in the way of decisions about what locations get what service levels (with a couple of, again, political exceptions). Now, the TW agents came over with their seniority-for-pay-and-weeks-of-vacation levels intact....when payroll was asked where cuts could be made, guess what? IMHO nearly all of them were worth it, as they have come along very well as agents, transitioning to the very difficult complexities of SABRE and AA's endless stock of awards, vouchers, fare rules, exchanges, etc...but at airports where the AA folks weren't acquainted with and didnt have much contact with the TW gang, this may have not been recognized. We knew it at my station, tho....they were all friends. As for route elimination, nothing was more glaring than Carl I selling all the good assets he could and pocketing the $...e.g., the sale to AA of the NYC-Europe routes for $440m or so, when those very routes generated that much in ONE YEAR for TW. Now, getting back to the route business....AA wants the routes to & from what might be considered the "go-go" cities, those where big-time business execs will want to go, and quickly...where the juicy fares for those trips can be garnered and it not be such an issue with the company's comptrollers. So expect tinkering and experimentation with limited point-to-point service, but mostly it will be hub-focused. And the realization that the future is much more likely in the lower-yield leisure market is very much alive down there on Amon Carter Blvd will mean the larger, hi-density planes will be directed there and the "roomy" 80's will concentrate on those markets deemed more business-oriented....this is just a reality of yield management. All us airline nuts sometimes muse about, "wouldn't it be neat if we had non-stops from .....to.....?....with 757's or MD-90's or even 320's?". Very unlikely it will ever happen, even if it seems logical and justified in our own minds. Finance and marketing types are the people now calling the shots, not the Bob Six's or CE Woolmans or CR Smiths or even Ted Bakers (if there are even any of that ilk left). It's a loss to all of us, but it is the new reality and time waits for no one....more on this later maybe...

I remember when......a plane trip was a big deal.
 
InnocuousFox
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:30 am

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Sat Dec 20, 2003 11:51 am

The bottom line is that TWA drove their business into the ground on their own... WITHOUT help from AA. They were easily doomed. Either they would close up shop and other airlines would get their assets in auction or someone would just move in and absorb them. That is what happened. Either way, if a TWA employee loses a job, they don't have AA to blame... they have their own management. That's like saying "we ceased operations because of bankruptcy and I'm mad at the people who came in and bought our planes at auction."

TWA failed. STL could be a viable first rate hub, but not necessarily for a company that has 2 midwest powerhouse hubs already. So, STL's demise is not the fault of AA but rather of TWA.

Regarding the great Reno debate, the only reason to have an STL to RNO route ASIDE from what is already provided by DFW-RNO and ORD-RNO would be specific O&D traffic from STL. Assuming that all destinations that would be served by STL are also served by DFW/ORD, there is no reason to HAVE to add a 3rd way of connecting from RNO to the world. Can they? Sure. Do they have to? No. The only people it would truly assist are people who are specifically travelling from RNO-STL - which is likely a small number relative to the whole scheme of things.

Oh... and Spyglass? If you want people to even attempt to read your posts, mix in a return once in a while.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
Logos
Posts: 610
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2000 10:47 pm

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:28 pm

Spyglass,

Interesting stuff (you might want to make a paragraph break occasionally, though).

As for route elimination, nothing was more glaring than Carl I selling all the good assets he could and pocketing the $...e.g., the sale to AA of the NYC-Europe routes for $440m or so, when those very routes generated that much in ONE YEAR for TW.

Bingo. I've always thought that was a major turning point for TWA. Dumping the LHR route authority to AA with only some spare change and a few years in Aadvantage to show for it sure didn't do their future any favors.

It's sad to see - you're right, it's not nearly as much fun following this industry as it used to be.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando
Too many types flown to list
 
spyglass
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:17 pm

RE: More News For You STL Guys Regarding AA

Sat Dec 20, 2003 3:23 pm

InnocFox....what's a return?....and Logos...I don't know to indent (ain't none too swift at the keyboard/mouse pad....but my spellin's pretty good.....)
I remember when......a plane trip was a big deal.

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