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backfire
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Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Fri Dec 19, 2003 8:06 pm

45 CRJs, 45 ERJs for the Star order
 
777ER
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Fri Dec 19, 2003 8:11 pm

Where did you get this information from? Do you know what model CRJs and ERJs?. Still hope that the 717 will get some order from the 3 other Star members

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backfire
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Fri Dec 19, 2003 8:14 pm

15 CRJ200s, 30 CRJ705s plus 45 Emb 190s - all official

[Edited 2003-12-19 12:16:09]
 
lymanm
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Fri Dec 19, 2003 8:25 pm

I cannot say I am surprised one bit by the order. Good to see no useless A318s, but sad to see that the fate of the 717 appears sealed.

http://micro.newswire.ca/release.cgi?rkey=1112194710&view=13213-0&Start=0

Air Canada confirms 90 aircraft order from Bombardier and Embraer

MONTREAL, Dec. 19 /CNW Telbec/ - Air Canada today announced it has
reached agreements in principle to purchase 45 Bombardier and 45 Embraer
aircraft as part of its previously announced North American fleet strategy. A
decision on an additional 15 aircraft will be made following further
negotiation. These manufacturers were chosen following an evaluation of
aircraft types in the 50-, 70- and 100-seat categories from amongst the
world's leading aircraft manufacturers.
"Now that we have clarity in the completion of our equity process,
pressing matters relating to Air Canada's restructuring should proceed without
delay in the interests of all stakeholders. The small jet aircraft are
fundamental to our emergence as a stronger, more cost effective airline. For
this reason we are moving forward with this order now," said Robert Milton,
President and Chief Executive Officer. "We are confident that our decision is
in the best interests of our customers and economic stakeholders. For
customers, these aircraft mean low cost, high frequency jet service to a wide
selection of destinations in Canada and the United States. For Air Canada,
they will provide the flexibility and cost-competitiveness to serve dozens of
North American markets on a financially viable basis.
"The choice of Bombardier and Embraer aircraft was made following a
lengthy and rigorous evaluation during which we considered the feedback from
all stakeholder groups including customers and employees. Air Canada was one
of the original launch customers for the Canadair Regional Jet and today's
announcement reflects our continued support of Canada's aerospace industry and
its ability to meet our requirements for regional jet aircraft given the
complexities of our business environment."

Bombardier
----------
The Bombardier order consists of 15 firm 50-seat CRJ-200 and 30 firm 74-
seat CRJ-705 aircraft. Aircraft deliveries are scheduled to begin in September
2004. The order also contemplates the potential for Air Canada to exercise
options to acquire 45 additional aircraft.
Air Canada will configure the CRJ-200 aircraft in a single Hospitality
class of service with 50 all-leather seats, four seats abreast offering 31
inches of legroom. The Bombardier CRJ-200 aircraft has a cruising speed of
860 km/h and a range of up 3,700 kms with a total payload of 6,124 kgs.
The CRJ-705 aircraft will be configured in two classes of service with
nine seats in Executive Class featuring three abreast seating offering 38
inches of legroom, and 65 seats in Hospitality with four abreast seating
offering 33 inches of legroom. Both cabins will feature all leather seating.
The Bombardier CRJ-705 aircraft has a cruising speed of 827 km/h and a range
of up to 3,816 kms with a total payload of 7,778 kgs including a cargo payload
of 700 kgs.
The Air Canada family of airlines is one of the world's largest operators
of Canadian-built aircraft with 47 Dash 8-100s, 26 Dash 8-300s, 25 CRJ-100s
and 10 CRJ-200s currently in service.

Embraer
-------
The Embraer order consists of 45 firm 93-seat Embraer 190 aircraft.
Deliveries are scheduled to begin in November 2005. The order also
contemplates the potential for Air Canada to exercise options to acquire 45
additional aircraft.
Air Canada will configure the Embraer 190 aircraft in two classes of
service with 9 seats in Executive Class with three abreast seating offering 38
inches of legroom, and 84 seats in Hospitality with four abreast seating
offering 33 inches of legroom. Both cabins will feature all leather seating
and spacious overhead bins. The Embraer 190 aircraft has a cruising speed of
769 km/h and a range of up to 2,963 kms with a total payload of 9,800 kgs
including a cargo payload of 1,100 kgs.
Both purchase commitments are subject to a number of conditions including
financing on satisfactory commercial terms, final documentation and obtaining
requisite approvals, which may include those from Trinity Time Investments
under the Court-approved Trinity Time Investment Agreement, GE Canada Finance
Inc. in its capacity as DIP financing lender and the Court overseeing the
company's restructuring under the Companies' Creditors Arrangement Act (CCAA).
As previously announced, GECAS has also agreed in principle to provide a
maximum of approximately USD $950 million to finance up to 43 regional
aircraft, for which financing is expected to occur through a series of
transactions. This regional aircraft financing is subject to, among other
things, maintaining a specified credit rating following Air Canada's emergence
from CCAA.
As part of the labour restructuring negotiations last spring, an
arbitration process was established to determine which pilot group, as between
ACPA (for Air Canada) and ALPA (for Jazz) would operate any new aircraft in
the small jet category. As a result of these orders, this process will
commence shortly and the final aircraft manufacturer and model selection may
vary depending upon the outcome of this process.
This order follows an extensive evaluation of the candidate aircraft
carried out by Air Canada with three of its Star Alliance partners sharing a
common view to reduce costs through standardization and leveraging joint
purchasing power.
buhh bye
 
planemaker
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:03 pm

No surprise with the order... except for the CRJ-200's. I would have rather seen the CRJ-700 with 9 Executive Class and 50 Hospitality seats. As has been repeated many, many times, the AC order came down to politics for the 70 seat end and the best aircraft for the upper end of the order.

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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AC_B777
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:22 pm

Well, I'm disappointed that a least part of the order didn't go to Boeing. I was really hoping to see the 717 come on board with us. Too bad. I guess it didn't meet the requirements or the price.
I am looking forward though to seeing the ERJ's. I think the 190 is a nice looking a/c, sort of like "mini me" A320. I hope they prove to be a good machine in our environment and in our fleet.

AC_B777
In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
 
caribb
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:40 pm

The CRJ-705 aircraft will be configured in two classes of service with
nine seats in Executive Class featuring three abreast seating offering 38
inches of legroom, and 65 seats in Hospitality with four abreast seating
offering 33 inches of legroom


Planemaker.. well close enough I guess.. I'm not sure it was all political. There is some benefit to continue using an aircraft you already have in service. The -700s have some commonality so their order isn't really all that surprising. I would have like to see the 717 in the fleet though.

I'm curious to see how the other Star members split their orders now, or do they go with one model.
 
vector
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:54 pm

This order in very important to Embraer 190 programm.

Now we have great chaces to win more orders from other Star Alliance partners. Air Canada is the secand Star Alliance member to choose Embraer´s as LOT polish already ordered the 170 (before enter the Star team).

For sure the lower end of the order goes to Bombardier for 3 reasons:

1- politcs
2- fleet communality (with CRJ-200)
3- delivery schedule.

and for Embraer on upper end:

1- excellent feedback during the fly-in;
2- new concept and confort level;
3- better economics and price.

Not only for Air Canada, but I hope this was the opinnion of all Star Members.

Congratulations to Embraer end Bombardier.

regards
Vector
 
dellatorre
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:08 pm

just much like US did!! 50% each! I hope SAS/LH/OS don't follow the same basis! Instead of been diplomatic, they should go for the better product! EMBRAER!

Sorry, but Boeing and Airbus weren't even close! They should stick with the mainline and forget the RJ market!!! No chance competing with EMBRAER and "BOMBARDIER, I guess".

 
Kempa
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:19 pm

It is a very smart move.

Air Canada doesn't antagonize the Montreal planemakers, buying what they have to offer, and buying from Embraer what Bombardier doesn't offer. This way they silence any claims of unfair dealing, and of betraying their country's industry.
 
flyyul
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:22 pm

Brazil should stop the unfair and unprofitable subsidies to Embraer, and use that money to fix the many holes in the brazilian society and economy.



 
Kempa
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:30 pm

FLYYUL,

Let the WTO be the judge of that. I don't think this is the forum to discuss this.

 
captaingomes
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:32 pm

I too am happy with this deal, and am not too surprised. I also wish the 717 got part of the order, but I guess that wasn't meant to be. Hopefully Boeing doesn't announce soon that they are cancelling the 717 program, but it wouldn't be a shock if they did.

"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
CanadaEH
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:43 pm

I don't think anybody is shocked by the choices Air Canada has made. Having gotten the "final" word from AC on its order, I wonder what competition is thinking? All's been quiet on the Jetsgo/Westjet front lately, I wonder what the response will be from those airlines? I know Westjet has expressed interest in the Embraer product and Jetsgo in the older F100 or 717 (I think?). 2004 is shaping up to be one hell of an interesting year in Canada, that's for sure...
EH.
 
F4N
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:45 pm

To all:

While I'm sure that there are lots of public smiles and expressions of satisfaction all around, there has to be some po'd executives at Bombardier and some serious gloating in Brazil. A bankrupt flag carrier using taxpayer money to buy a competitor's product.

Ouch....

Regards,

F4N
 
Bryston
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:55 pm

F4N,

please, elaborate your point, as I have some trouble seeing the BBD product that is competiting with the EMB-190...

In my opinion, it's the best deal they could have made, striking a good balance between economics and politics issues.

Kudos AC! Now, let see if the deal will be actually done, as it it associated with conditions regarding AC restructuration and new investors.

I think it's a good news for AC, BBD and EMB!
I'd rather be flying...
 
Skywatcher
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:56 pm

This is just plain old fashioned common sense.

Both manufacturers offered strengths in different areas.

The comments about Embraer being "better economics and price" are unfair. Both manufacturers claim the same thing and in fact it is very, very debateable since the ERJ-190 is not even in service yet.Embraer is also just as adept at playing "politics" as BBD. It is just a fact of life.

There seems to be alot of variables that can come into play that may change the mix and even the entire order itself. It sounds very complex and tentative to me.

 
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yyz717
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:13 am

Brazil should stop the unfair and unprofitable subsidies to Embraer, and use that money to fix the many holes in the brazilian society and economy.

Canada should also stop the unfair & unprofitable subsidy of Bombardier. Cdn taxpayers have had enough.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
717fan
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:16 am

Congratulations to Bombardier and Embraer!! Sad for the 717!
 
fallingeese
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:19 am

It will be an interesting next few years in the Canadian Aviation scene.

Westjet continues to soar, and are looking at Embraer. I wonder if Air Canada choosing Embraer will change any thinking at Westjet.

Canjet should be releasing what aircraft will be in it's fleet renewal plans any day now.

Jetsgo has always been rumour to be looking at the Fokker 100, and Boeing 717.

Platinum Jet Air starts in February and is aiming to take away Air Canada's business passengers between YYC and YYZ.

I can't wait for 2004.
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:30 am

The fact that AC will buy the Embraer 190 means it's now much more likely that other Star Alliance airlines that are in this deal will buy the Embraer 190.

Don't be surprised that Embraer's production line is going to be VERY busy from 2005 on.  Smile

Pity that the Fairchild-Dornier 728/928 program ended; otherwise, F-D would have hugely benefited from this deal.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:31 am

Big question is, who gets to fly the new jets? My guess is at least the CRJ 200's will go to Jazz, and the 705's and the Embraer's will go to the mainline Air Canada fleet, but I'm sure the pilots will be duking it out over who flies them. Air Canada mainline pilots feel they are the only ones who should fly jets. In the mean time, Air Canada CRJ pilots are paid a pittance while the wide-body pilots are very well paid. I think it's time to rethink the whole pilot compensation at Air Canada.

CanadaEH and Fallingeese ... every year we all say "it's going to be an interesting year for aviation in Canada" and we are always right! It seems to never be dull. When was the last time we had a boring year in Canadian aviation? Hopefully the excitement will be focused in positive ways though, enough of all the negatives.

With American Airlines retiring their large fleet of F100's, Jetsgo has many aircraft to choose from. Spare parts were beginning to be a problem for American Airlines, but with these aircraft being retired, this will unlikely be an issue for the much smaller fleet that Jetsgo may operate.

And regarding the Canjet deal, people are saying it will be up to 20 737-500's for them. Others say 757 and also 73G, but the most reliable sources claim it's the 737-500's. I can't wait to find out officially on that one as well!  Smile

[Edited 2003-12-19 16:32:55]
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
fallingeese
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:35 am

Captaingomes - Oh I know we say it every year, and well it always proves true. Don't forget about former US Air aircraft, that is where Platinum Jet Air's fleet is comming from...and well has come from. I'm hoping to be in Toronto in June, for the CBAA convention.

Speaking of the pilot issues, we must not forget about the issues of Jazz, and their aircraft. A large portion of their fleet were the first Dash 8's off of the production line.
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
lymanm
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:39 am

When the new aircraft enter the fleet, there will no doubt be reductions elsewhere. Anyone have any idea where? The 737 is obvious, the 762s, perhaps? Maybe even terminating expensive leases with older 320s?

"For sure the lower end of the order goes to Bombardier for 3 reasons:

1- politcs
2- fleet communality (with CRJ-200)..."

I would switch #2 with #1 - it would be asinine to place two different 50 seaters side by side in operation. Even AC is smart enough to realize this.
buhh bye
 
voodoo
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:39 am

Both Bombardier and someone (one expects) at F-Do will be kicking themselves at Embraer's clear run in the 90-100 seat market.
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
captaingomes
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:41 am

CBAA is in Toronto next year?? Nice! First time that I hear about that  Smile

Jazz and the Dash8 aircraft, you're right about that too, and seems nobody remembers. I guess they are still doing the job for now, but another 5 years or so and they should be replaced by new Q200's and Q400's maybe (if their reliability has improved).

Nuno.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Greg
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:42 am

Ray....
This is actually good news for the 'foot dragging' development of the 728. D'long is now actually aware that they need to speed up development of both aircraft.

Now that the development cost is written off...they can actually be somewhat competitive with future bids.

The success of the program lies in the Germans being able to market and produce at a reasonable cost. The Chinese are being viewed only as the 'money' end of the deal.

What more have you heard about the development. I understand the electronics are being fitted to the prototype.

Brgds.
 
fallingeese
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:46 am

June 21-23 in Toronto. Thankfully it fits very nicely around my diploma exam schedule. Aswell one of the key sponsors is the magazine that I am on very good terms with, and am doing quite a bit of work with.

The reliability of the Q400 has seemed to improved as of late, but I think Air Canada will be broke for a little while now Big grin
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
captaingomes
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 1:01 am

Keep up the good work Mark #2! Looking forward to the CBAA convention ... hopefully Wings will pay for your trip  Big grin Is Rob Seaman still writing for them?

"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
FoxBravo
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 1:09 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a CRJ-705 actually a CRJ-900 with a 2-class cabin configuration? They have the same exterior dimensions and engines, yet Bombardier markets it as if it had more in common with the CRJ-700.

Why can't they just call a spade a spade? I am guessing there is a significant price difference if the airline agrees not to put more than 74 seats in it, kind of like the CRJ-440 vs. the CRJ-200? But I can't think of any other aircraft manufacturer that has had to resort to such confusing marketing tactics in order to sell its planes.

I have no strong preference for either aircraft, and am not trying to start a Canada vs. Brazil war here, but all the confusion seems motivated entirely by the fact that the CRJs, with their narrower cabins, would otherwise be unable to compete with the new Embraers for airlines wanting a 2-class configuration.

In any event, sad as I am for the 717, this order seems like a good compromise between business and politics...good planes all around, and it should keep the Quebecois happy!  Smile
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
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yyz717
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 1:15 am

This order is ludicrous. The CRJ-705 is too similar to the EMB-190 since both play the same role. AC is simply adding unnecessary complexity & diversity to their fleet.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
bmacleod
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 1:31 am

I knew AC wouldn't go for the 717, it looks too much like the DC-9. It has enough Airbuses for now, so it doesn't need the 318. It will be interesting to see an Embraer in AC colors......
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
BOEING747-700
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 1:34 am

I am a bit unclear here, Air Crapada said it couldn't take the A340-500 which I understand why. But how does this new order look to Airbus now that Air Canada can now buy about 90 some new jets. If I were an Airbus official I would be a little upset that Air Canada did not take the 318. I don't know that maybe how I am getting this???
 
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yyz717
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 1:44 am

Jordan, AC is now under voluntary bankruptcy protection & is working on a new ownership arrangement with the creditors and a new business plan. They don't need the 345 as their strategy has changed. While Airbus would like AC (or ANY airline) to take those 2 345's in storage, they are likely not pissed at all since AC is a very big customer of Airbus and is likely to order more Airbus aircraft in the future. Indeed, AC continues to take new-build 319's and 320's this fall.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
donder10
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 1:50 am

What type of $$ would AC lose from its deposit in deffering the 345s?I expect they will be converted to 346Es eventually.


Why does AC need to order 2 seperate aircraft types for what is only a 90 plane order?Continued political interference?
 
AC320
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 1:52 am

I'm sure this will be ample incentive for Bombardier to re-examine its 90-100 seat jet program that was shelved some time ago.

Boeing747-700,

"The small jet aircraft are fundamental to our emergence as a stronger, more cost-effective airline. For this reason we are moving forward with this order now," -Milton

Still, I wouldn't be surprised if they take the 345's in the near future.
fuddle duddle
 
BOEING747-700
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 2:12 am

I wouldn't be either Justin, I have a gut feeling that they are haning around for a reason. Big grin
 
captaingomes
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 2:34 am

Bmacleod, airlines don't buy aircraft based on looks. Milton et al don't go and say "wow, what pretty winglets, our colours would look sweeeeeeeet on that!"

Sorry, a bit tongue in cheek, I know what you're getting at, but I'm sure more people than not would be very happy to see the 717 in Air Canada's colours. The 717 is highly regarded by passengers, and offers a comfort level that the Bombardier and probably the Embraer aircraft can't match.  Smile
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Mark_D.
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 2:39 am

Yyz717-- This order is ludicrous. The CRJ-705 is too similar to the EMB-190 since both play the same role.

What would you have rather seen-- 50 ~110-seat 717-200s and 50 93-seat E190s, or something like that?


"Both play the same role" -- how do you get that one? One's 93 seats and the other's 75. One's a "mainline comfort" cabin while the other's a "best that they can make it" long an fairly narrow tube. One's intented for higher-yield, rather-thin Transborder and off-peak-hour premium Canadian short and medium-haul route service, while the other is for slightly-lower-yield medium-density-and-range Canadian routes, and maybe a few lowest-yield tranborder runs as well. "Play the same role"?-- doesn't seem like it. Though granted it's not like contrasting a CR1 or 2 with an A319, or something like that.

I think there are no big surprises here. Though there are a number of little ones-- maybe starting with it's going to be a bit of a trip seeing Embraer planes --and a fair number of 'em -- in Canadian skies  Big grin

A bit of a surprise (to me anyway), no -700s. But then with 74 seat -705s it's not that big a step up from the fifty-seaters. And it's a pleasant little surprise that there'll be 33" pitch in economy and everybody getting leather seats . Will make it easier to sit in the long CRJ900 tube and extend folks' patience, maybe even get an average flight time passenger tolerance level in there to about 2, 2 1/2 hours or so. And until the Embraers arrive in force I guess they'll be using 'em on ~ 3-hour flights like
YYZ/YOW/YUL-YWG, YYZ/YOW/YUL-YYT, YWG-YVR. With a 3800km -705 nominal range, until the Embraers arrive in force they may just even push things and run the -705s on thin or off-peak 4-hour flights too like YOW/YUL-YEG, YYZ-YXE/YQR, off-peak YYZ/YOW/YUL-YYC!

I guess they didn't get any -700s because the 33"-economy-seat-pitch may have been too strong a priority for AC --in which case a similarly-equipped 2-class -700 maybe would have come in at something like 60 seats, and be way too close in capacity to the 50 seaters.


AC is simply adding unnecessary complexity & diversity to their fleet.


Around when Jetblue was mulling over its own decision to get some Embraers, somebody's executive somewhere was quoted as saying that fleet commonality marginal advantages sort of peter out, after around 50 or 60 planes or so. If that's true then it doesn't seem like, say, AC ordering 90 Embraers instead --even in maybe a 45 E190s/45 E170s split-- would bring a lot more flee operations savings, compared to what they announced today.


 
lymanm
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 2:40 am

"This order is ludicrous. The CRJ-705 is too similar to the EMB-190 since both play the same role. AC is simply adding unnecessary complexity & diversity to their fleet."

I think it's wise to tailor your fleet as specifically as you can. While they are generally very similar in profile, they can play very different relative roles. I'd rather an aircraft that can do one thing exceptionally well rather than one that can do multiple tasks only marginally well. The significant difference is that the 705 has almost 1000kms of range over the EMB. I would guess the EMBs will focus on NE transborder flights, whereas the 705 will focus on longer, domestic stage lengths.

As far as costs associated with introducing a type, it was clear from the start that a new type would be added, as AC never replaced their DC-9s with anything. The cost of introducing the EMB was expected, and the cost of the 705 will be negligible since AC already has a CRJ certificate. And it's not like they have a long way to go for extra training/product support needs...right down the taxiway!

I had no idea the 705 was in fact the 119 ft version, the length of the 900 series. It IS confusing.
buhh bye
 
dellatorre
Posts: 865
Joined: Sat May 13, 2000 2:50 pm

RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 2:51 am

Enough bashing for those Boeing and Airbus fans!! Just accept the fact that both 717 and A318 won't have a large production line, specially the 717.

It's funny though to think that an EMBRAER aircraft will be flying on an Canadian airline!! The so called jungle jets were the best option after all, as it is clear the BBD order was based more on politics than fleet commonality!

Fortunately, the other way around is less likely to happen!!

I expect many airline's to ditch many B737 and A319 routes for premium EMB-190/195! Watch out Seattle!!!!!! When those 737's begin to be replaced by EMBRAER's!!!!


Today, couldnt be a better day!!!
 
boac707
Posts: 273
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:55 am

RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 2:56 am

The order seems to address what AC thinks about loads and range. As I see it the EMB's have a shorter range than the CRJ...so the CRJs will take the load longer and EMB's the shorter haul stuff.

717...it is a shame, but like the animal world only the fittest survive and maybe with it and 757 gone, Boeing may get stronger in the future...

just my two cents (cdn funds)
smokey classics to the end of time
 
Greg
Posts: 5539
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RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 2:58 am

While it likely to be a decent product...I hardly think the world is going to be changed by the EMB170/190.

From an enthusiasts standpoint it's very interesting.

From an airlines business standpoint it's one of many offerings....

While economical, even EMB will state that you can't get the seat mile cost down to the level of a 319 or 73G that carriers 30 more passengers.
 
Mark_D.
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Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 9:55 am

RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 2:59 am

Lymanm--The significant difference is that the 705 has almost 1000kms of range over the EMB.

It's still so early in the game though --190 hasn't even been put together yet, let alone take flight or enter service or so on. Not to mention Embraer has a ~4200km LR version apparently planned too (and Nov '05 is far enough away for AC to get at least a few of those if they decide they really want them instead)

http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/FRERJ190.htm

Also, I rather doubt that AC is picking their -705s for ~4-hour long, ~3000km runs. I don't put it past 'em for trying it anyway for thin routes like YOW/YUL-YEG, or off-peak flights from Central Canada to YYC. But to me that's really pushing it too far for the plane type --33" economy seat pitch and leather seats for everybody notwithstanding.
 
boac707
Posts: 273
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:55 am

RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 3:02 am

and the other long run factor is that I don't think they have an entertainment system...not that we are spoiled but 4hrs in an RJ with no sound etc may not be acceptable this day and age
smokey classics to the end of time
 
challengerdan
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2003 3:17 pm

RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 3:11 am

I guess nobody remembers one of the first chapters of AC going bankrupt.
GE capital is providing some 700M to Aircanada. Turns out GE just sold 180 of their popular CF34 series engines.... Strange, isn't it?  Big grin
if your flight goes MX in YUL, I might be called to fix it!
 
Mark_D.
Posts: 1360
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 9:55 am

RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 3:14 am

BOAC707-- and the other long run factor is that I don't think they have an entertainment system...not that we are spoiled but 4hrs in an RJ with no sound etc may not be acceptable this day and age

I'd forgotten about that right here!  Smile True enough, it's going to be an increasingly de rigeur creature comfort for "next-generation RJs" , especially if they fly medium or even somewhat longhaul routes and especially in Canada with WestJet locking up that LiveTV contract and equipping their 73G fleet. (Jetsgo a week or so ago announced that they were going to do a mini pilot project on YYZ-YVR, YYZ-FLL runs. Rent out portable DVD players and offer a choice of movies for $10 for movie and player rental, $5 for additional movies, I think a couple bucks for an extra headset too. Should be interesting to see if that one catches on or not  Smile )

So yeah, the AC -705s are going to be for lower-yielding and shorter haul-- runs than the Embraers. The E-jets IFE advantage only driving the point home further still.
 
lymanm
Posts: 1102
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:30 pm

RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 3:14 am

Interesting, Mark D. Then maybe the reason AC ordered 2 types was to appease ALPA/ACPA? That way, they can both have new jets to fly.

And -

Hold your horses, you Brazilians. The EMB 190 is going to be a great plane for AC. But, your country is still ridiculously poor. Calm this orgy of displaced national pride over a relatively meaningless airplane.
buhh bye
 
Mark_D.
Posts: 1360
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 9:55 am

RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 3:20 am

ChallengerDan-- GE capital is providing some 700M to Aircanada. Turns out GE just sold 180 of their popular CF34 series engines.... Strange, isn't it?

I think even if RR or P&W were the exclusive engine suppliers instead here --and the GE cap funding were in place too-- it still wouldda been a similar if not identical outcome to what they announced today. Though definitely it doesn't hurt GE --or surprise onlookers-- at all if the "stars do line up" a bit as they have here.
 
User avatar
Aloha717200
Posts: 3877
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 4:50 am

RE: Star - Air Canada Goes For CRJs And ERJs

Sat Dec 20, 2003 3:25 am

This is perhaps the least surprising outcome. It makes excellent political sense though. Air Canada orders a Canadian product for fleet commonality and for political reasons....and orders the Embraer which has the upper hand in the 90-100 seat market.

I'm very sad to hear that the 717 wasn't picked though. I'm glad to hear tha A318 wasn't. Not that I dont like the A318, but the A318 would have made the least sense from an economic standpoint for Air Canada.

But we all know that BBD and Embraer had the lead right from the start anyhow. The 717 was sort of the underdog throughout this entire time. I was hoping for a surprise but I'm not truly surprised here.

I imagine that this means that the 717-300 proposal will now be cancelled. As for the 717-200....well, unless it starts getting orders soon, I think we an expect this one to say its goodbyes along with the 757 next year.  Sad

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