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EZYAirbus
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Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:03 am

Can anybody tell me why Qantas chose the A330 instead of a Boeing 777? Surely moneywise it would of been better to have an all Boeing fleet!!

Glenn
http://www.glenneldridgeaviation.com
 
A340600
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RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:06 am

How many short haul routes do you see the 777 doing  Smile/happy/getting dizzy, and thats what they use the -200s for. Well that's going to change to 767, but that's not the point,

Sam Smile
Despite the name I am a Boeing man through and through!
 
EZYAirbus
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RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:08 am

5 hours coast to coast aint really short haul is it in oz? SIA operate the 777 on short haul and dont seem to have many problems

Glenn
http://www.glenneldridgeaviation.com
 
LHR001
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RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:18 am

The above stated comment into the reason that Qantas does not maintain a complete Boeing fleet is of great interest to many. However, you must look at the following. Qantas Airways has an aging fleet of 767-200 and 767-300 aircraft. In addition Qantas has placed orders for the A330, and A320. The latter will be going to the low cost upstart the Qantas will be introducing. The Boeing 717 fleet with Qantas is not large and can easily be maintained. Qantas will maintain the 747-400 program for a while. In the long term Airbus offers a cost efficient and very reliable product. The 777 pricing is miles above that of the A330. To operate the 777 on regional and intra-Australian routes would make no sense as the cost per mile would make it much more viable for the long-haul routes. And in saying so the long-haul routes to Europe, Japan, South Africa, and the United States are operated with Boeing 747-400, and in the coming years the A380.

This perhaps is another case of Boeing... Overpriced, and a bit to Late!


LHR001
 
N79969
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RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:47 am

I think this is a fair question. Afterall, Qantas was among the select group of carriers that participated in the B777 design team. I want to address a couple of points.

One of the major drivers of the Airbus order was the favorable exchange rate between the AUD and Euro. I recall reading that that USD was particuarly strong versus the AUD when Qantas was considering the two types.

JAL and ANA operate quite a few 777s on domestic flights around one hour in length. In addition to Singapore, I believe that Thai and Cathay Pacific also operate many regional routes that may be considered 'short haul' by people reading this.

From what I have read, the 332 is an excellent true long-haul airplane. I believe that Korean Air operates them to Europe and that NWA plans to fly them across the Pacific. But I am not sure how that long-range performance translates into the medium range. My sense is that the 332 is probably economically comparable to the B777 in the medium range niche and does not have the economic superiority that it apparently enjoys over the 767-400.

Finally, Qantas is also a A380 customer.





[Edited 2003-12-29 22:48:21]
 
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yyz717
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RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:56 am

Operationally, QF could easily have chosen the 764/772 combination. In some ways perhaps the 764 would have been more suited to the short hauls than the 332 was.

Anyway, alot of the purchase decision comes down to pricing and what I call "bundling". Perhaps as a launch 380 customer, QF received favourable discounts on the 332/333 that far outweighed any Boeing advantage. Perhaps we will never know.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:41 am

How many short haul routes do you see the 777 doing

ATL-MCO
EWR-IAH
EWR-SDQ
IAH-LAX
ATL-MIA
DFW-MIA
DFW-ORD
LAX-DEN
LAX-ORD
NRT-ITM
KIX-HND
HND-CTS
HND-NGO
HKG-NRT
SIN-KUL
SIN-HKG
DEN-SEA

....is that enough, or would you like some more?  Insane Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
gigneil
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RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:49 am

Heh point is, the 777 and A330 would be equally problematic for our friends at QF.

The 764 would probably have been a good choice for the CityFlyer, yes, but the 777 might have been a bit much to replace the 763 on some of the regional routes.

The A330 will fit in well with their 380s, and sure they got a great bundle deal I have no doubt.

N
 
B727-200
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RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:01 am


This topic appears to raise its head often in here, but the answers still have not changed:

1) QF got these at a sweetheart deal due to their commitment to be a launch customer for the A380

2) A B777 just ain't going to fit at the domestic terminals too well (I believe there are 2 gates at YMML, 2 at YSSY, 1 at YBBN and 1 at YPPH that can take a B777. This usually means that the adjacent gate cannot be used when a B777/B747 is docked).

3) The B777 is not the right aircraft for the originally intended mission. Sure, B777's operate on some short-haul services, but I am sure this flying is interlaced with some long-haul flying too (high cycles on big aircraft = not good).

Now, a question to you - why would an all Boeing fleet be of advantage, particularly when you are talking an aircraft as unique as the B777?

Rgds,
B727-200.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:03 am

Perhaps the 7E7 for QF down the line.......

Isn't SQ not happy with the 777 doing regional routes?

Also, are QFs 330s augmenting the 763s or replacing them?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
PVD757
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RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:17 am

I do recall some earlier posts stating that the 777 was not economical enough(whether you believe everything on this site or not) and the A310 not big enough for their needs. Airport-wise, it might be the wingspan that is the most problematic point, not whether the plane can make you enough money to justify its use.
 
mattg21iah
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RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:21 am

B727-200 has a good point about gate problems with the larger aircraft. Some people may look at the cost per seat mile but QF had to look at all the possible options and picked the best one, but the cost had to help with Airbus.
 
gigneil
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RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:38 am

Isn't SQ not happy with the 777 doing regional routes?

They're not unhappy, but they really wish they had something smaller.

Also, are QFs 330s augmenting the 763s or replacing them?

Replacing them completely from international service. The 763s will be downrated and put on the CityFlyer routes, and hopefully reconfigured first.

2) A B777 just ain't going to fit at the domestic terminals too well

The A330 requires gates sized for large aircraft like the 777 and 747. The 764 fits in gates sized for DC-10s, L-1011s, and 767s. Major reason why DL didn't want the 777, and didn't want the 764 to have a bigger wing.

Now, a question to you - why would an all Boeing fleet be of advantage, particularly when you are talking an aircraft as unique as the B777?

Agreed. The 777 is really different than all the others, and looks like it will be completely different than the 7E7. This is still somewhere Airbus has Boeing completely whooped. Boeing's best bet really is to have a whole product line of 7E7s in different sizes.

N
 
Trolley Dolley
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RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:18 am

QF is replacing it's long haul 767 ops with A330's. 767's are going to operate solely domestic services. Boeing has often marketed the 777 as a 747 replacement. It's a large piece of aluminimum to haul around the sky. The A330 seems to allow QF enough growth to replace (partially) it's ageing 767's without leaping to a 747 sized aircraft. Given the order was made pre 9/11, it's probably an astute move on behalf of the QF purcahsing team and board.

QF is also attempting to reduce seat mile costs to be competitive with Virgin Blue's lean 737 operations. I'm sure the A330 fleet allows it to narow the gap through economies of scale.

True QF is an A380 launch customer, but it was also the launch customer for the 747-400er. No doubt Boeing would have offered attractive cross financing there. (Both orders annouced simultaneously)

Given that QF is one of the few profitable full service airlines going, I am sure they have done their homework and weighed up the pros and cons of all the valid points raised in the forum, plus some we outside observers will never be privy to.
 
LHR001
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RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:32 am

Concorde Boy...


You have left out a few short haul 777 routes-

FCO-MXP
GIG-GRU
DEN-IAD
DEN-ORD
DFW-LAX
TPE-HKG
HKG-BKK
BKK-HKT
BKK-KUL
RUH-JED
DXB-THR
DXB-KHI
DXB-DEL
DXB-AUH
DXB-KWI

and yes the list does go forward from here!

Concorde Boy,

You must remember that they key in the game is profit. Why would Qantas want to purchase a 777 at a huge amount when they could purchase a A330 at near 30 % less than the 777? Why would Qantas purchase the 777 when they have very clearly stated they intend on Airbus to do the long-haul and international services. It just makes much more sense to go Airbus!


LHR001
 
PIA777
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RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:46 am

Delta Flies 777 to Orlando from Atl all the time. Its a 50 minute flight.
GO CUBS!!
 
Mr.BA
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RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:13 am

I mean the A330 could do the job and the B777 might seem a litle too big together with the "a little too steep price". Basically the A330 could do what the B777 could, and I believe they operate with lower costs. In addition they don't need the full capabilities of the B777, for example to fly long haul thin routes. The A330's lower MTOW would yearn lower landing fees... etc.

If Qantas had bought the B777 would we ask, we didn't they get the A330 instead?

[Edited 2003-12-30 02:17:43]
Boeing747 万岁!
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:42 am

ATL-MCO
EWR-IAH
EWR-SDQ
IAH-LAX
ATL-MIA
DFW-MIA
DFW-ORD
LAX-DEN
LAX-ORD
NRT-ITM
KIX-HND
HND-CTS
HND-NGO
HKG-NRT
SIN-KUL
SIN-HKG
DEN-SEA

....is that enough, or would you like some more?


Almost every route you mentioned, with the exceptions of the Asian ones, are repositioning flights for international services. In the case of MIA-DFW, DFW-ORD, EWR-SDQ, etc., etc. it is simply good use of a 777 that would otherwise sit on the tarmac. Better to fly it than let it sit.

DEN-SEA, BTW, no longer has 777 service. When they did, it was a positioning flight to get a 777 to Seattle for SEA-NRT.

These flights would most likely be more profitable flying with a smaller aircraft, such as a 757, but when the economics all work out, using the 777 is the most efficient thing to do.
a.
 
PIA777
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RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 11:01 am

I love the DFW-ORD 777 route. When I lived in Chicago. I flew that route all the time. My company sent me to Dallas for training all the time.
GO CUBS!!
 
EVA744
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RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 11:30 am

A380 order means cheap A330s.
cheap A330s mean more profit.

 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
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RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 11:47 am

I dunno. Honestly, I was more expecting a 777 order. QF is a "working together" airline after all.

I was expecting 764s for CityFlyer and 777s, possibly in multiple flavors.

N
 
B727-200
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RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 12:43 pm


What is the turnaround time for a B777 as opposed to an A330? I would think the A330 would be slightly quicker due to smaller size, and the fact that you do not have to tow the A330 onto the gate like you do sometimes with the B777.

On a route like MEL-SYD where you have a 01:20 block time and flights on the hour in both directions, you need to be able to turn the aircraft around in 40 minutes to keep the schedule rolling.

There is also an economic fleet size to obtain. For example, we all know Qantas can easily support 5+ A330 sized aircraft domestically based on demand, but could they support 5+ B777 sized aircraft? When capacity is needed, they have an ample B747 fleet to fall back on to fill the gaps (as they often do).

Rgds,
B727-200.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 12:47 pm

I would think the A330 to be quicker as well, but still not quick enough.

Its a BIG aircraft.

N
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 12:51 pm

I still expect to see a 777 order from Qantas later down the road...It is just a matter of time  Smile (I hope)
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Hamlet69
Posts: 2541
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RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 1:25 pm

First, let me address the original question.

When QF was considering the order a few years ago, they were basically comparing two totally seperate aircraft, to go along two totally seperate lines. For more fragmentation, they were strongly considering the 777LR series, while on the flip side, they also had to consider more hub flying, and thus the A380 proposal. For a long time, the 777 clearly had the lead. Indeed, from what I understand, when Boeing announced the 777LR program, QF had given them a verbal commitment to the aircraft. IIRC, they were to launch both the 747-400ER and the 777-200LR. However, at the eleventh-hour, QF chose to go down the A380 route instead, flying more seats w/ less frequency, which QF saw as a better option for the Kangaroo routes.

Part of the deal with Airbus for helping launch the A380 was not only a discount on the A380, but also a good deal on the A330 (which was not a bad proposal for Airbus, since it only inbedded QF with Airbus more). From what some reliable sources have told me, the total cost of the A380/A330 deal was what the list cost of the A380s alone would have been. The problem was, QF wasn't quite sure what to do with the A330. Although they were originally intended to fly domestically and a few regional routes, this has not worked out how QF wanted it to. Therefore, the airline has switched its gameplan, and the A330s are now replacing 767s on medium-haul destinations, freeing those aircraft for the domestic routes that QF had planned for the A330s.

So, EZYAirbus, I hope that answers your question. In truth, QF did not pick the A330 over the 777, they picked the A380 over the 777.


Now, a couple of misconceptions:

"A B777 just ain't going to fit at the domestic terminals too well"

The A330's wingspan is not much smaller than a 777's, so this is rather moot.

"The 777 is really different than all the others, and looks like it will be completely different than the 7E7. This is still somewhere Airbus has Boeing completely whooped. "

I'm sorry, but this is simply not true. When you compare going from A32X to A330/340, vs. going from 737NG to 777, the Boeing option only adds 1 day, on average, of extra training. IIRC, its @ 4-6 days for the Airbus models, 5-7 days for the Boeing ones. If we look at upcoming models, they will be virtually identical. Keep in mind that Airbus is updating the A380 cockpit (thank God, afterall, the A320 was originally designed in the mid-80s), which means that it will also take a little extra time (probably a day or so more than usual). The 7E7, likewise, will have an updated 777 cockpit, which in turn is in fact based on the 747-400 cockpit. IIRC, Boeing wants the 7E7 to have less training time to go from a 777 as it currently takes to go A32X to A330/340.

"Why would Qantas purchase the 777 when they have very clearly stated they intend on Airbus to do the long-haul and international services."

And when has Qantas ever stated that? Is that why they bought 747-400ERs at the same time they bought the A380? Is that why, according to a reliable source at Qantas itself, that the 777 remains an option down the road?

Regards and Happy New Year!

Hamlet69
All gave some. Some gave all.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:26 pm

I wasn't talking about cockpit commonality.

Airbus' strongest suit isn't just cockpit commonality. Its systemic. Many parts are the same across the entire line. Many processes are the same across the entire line. The family concept is much stronger.

Also, the switch from Boeing product to Boeing product is not as simple as you state. The handling of the aircraft is all very different, since they aren't FBW. Airbus' goal is for each of their planes, from the 318 to the 380, to respond similarly to pilot input. Its a laudable goal.

The 7E7 will be easier to convert to since it will be an FBW type, and can be made to handle like a 777.

N
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:47 am

Almost every route you mentioned, with the exceptions of the Asian ones, are repositioning flights for international services.

So said they werent? The question at hand was whether the planes are capable of efficiently operating shorthaul flights (regardless of what routes the patrons choose to operate the specific variants upon).



Why would Qantas want to purchase a 777 at a huge amount when they could purchase a A330 at near 30 % less than the 777?

when they have very clearly stated they intend on Airbus to do the long-haul and international services.


I challenge you to corroborate either one of these nonsensical statements  Insane


When you compare going from A32X to A330/340, vs. going from 737NG to 777, the Boeing option only adds 1 day, on average, of extra training. IIRC, its @ 4-6 days for the Airbus models, 5-7 days for the Boeing ones.

Problem is... parts/airframe commonality is much more benefitial than is cockpit commonality.... the Airbus aircraft often feature both.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Hamlet69
Posts: 2541
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2000 2:45 am

RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:00 pm

"Airbus' strongest suit isn't just cockpit commonality. Its systemic. Many parts are the same across the entire line. Many processes are the same across the entire line. The family concept is much stronger."

Ah. Okay, understood. Yes, as far as systems commonality, Airbus does have an advantage. OTOH, I'd be curious how much commonality the A380 has with, say, the A330/340?

"Problem is... parts/airframe commonality is much more benefitial than is cockpit commonality.... the Airbus aircraft often feature both."

Which is both Airbus' biggest advantage, and biggest downfall. I say this because, if we look at what Boeing is doing with the 7E7, Airbus literally cannot follow if they intend to keep their systems/parts commonality. Technology advances, there's no way around it. Eventually, Airbus is going to have to build an all-new model, abandoning commonality with previous models, or be stuck building 1980s-era designs.

Regards,

Hamlet69
All gave some. Some gave all.
 
Thrust
Posts: 2587
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Thu Jan 01, 2004 1:18 am

It seems rather odd that Qantas was a member of the "Working Together Team" with Boeing that designed the 777, yet they never ordered the 777 and chose the A330. All other airlines of the Working Together Team are now 777 operators. It is very uncommon for one of the airlines most influential on an aircraft's design do not wind up ordering it.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
DIA
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 2:24 pm

RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Thu Jan 01, 2004 1:30 am

MAH4546 said: "DEN-SEA, BTW, no longer has 777 service. When they did, it was a positioning flight to get a 777 to Seattle for SEA-NRT."

True, but SEA-DEN is still has a 777 on the route:

Seattle (SEA)
Depart 11:10 am to Denver (DEN)
Arrive 2:33 pm 1017 mile(s) (1637 km)
Duration: 2hr 23mn

Flight: 876

Economy/Coach Class, Lunch, Boeing 777, 90% on time

Total miles: 1017 mile(s) (1637 km)
Total duration: 2hr 23mn























Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Thu Jan 01, 2004 2:38 am

Hamlet said ". Eventually, Airbus is going to have to build an all-new model, abandoning commonality with previous models, or be stuck building 1980s-era designs."

AHHHH!!!!! Whenever i say this people go crazy. But it is so true. As of right now Airbus lacks one plane that will bring it into the future. Boeing has the 7E7 which will eventually become the basis for the 737NG replacement as well as a 777 replacement far in the future.

Airbus is lacking a brand new plane to become the standard family of the future.
This puts Airbus in a weird spot.....Could they launch a brand new development right after coming out with the A380? If they build a modified A330NG, will this plane be new and efficient enough to become the basis for all future Airbus planes? We shall see.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Thu Jan 01, 2004 2:52 am

Which is both Airbus' biggest advantage, and biggest downfall.

I couldn't agree with you more, Hamlet69. We could easily be seeing the beginning of the next Boeing cycle, where Airbus is doing the catching up and Boeing is offering a dominant, strong product line with great family benefits.

If, if Boeing capitalizes on the opportunities of the 7E7.

N
 
Hamlet69
Posts: 2541
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2000 2:45 am

RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Thu Jan 01, 2004 6:44 am

"If, if Boeing capitalizes on the opportunities of the 7E7."

Very true. I firmly believe that, assuming the 7E7 goes forward, the next aircraft from Boeing will be a 737 replacement based on the 7E7. I would look for EIS @ 2015, + or - a year or two. I also believe we'll see a little larger aircraft than the 737NG series, probably starting at 125-130 seats (i.e., the -700), and going up to the 7E7's capacity of 190-200. I honestly don't believe Boeing has any intention of competing with the RJ's in the future, once 717 production stops.

Again, this leaves the question of "what will Airbus do?" Do they build a A330NG now to compete with the 7E7, and leave an all-new design for a A320 replacement, or do they look at something new now? Can they afford to, as already mentioned, right after doing the A380 (this includes both financially and image-wise)?

A few thoughts, anyway.

Hamlet69
All gave some. Some gave all.
 
F4N
Posts: 507
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2000 11:37 pm

RE: Why QF Choose A330 Instead Of 777?

Thu Jan 01, 2004 8:00 am

To all:

At this point, Airbus cannot do much other than to vigorously pursue the course which they have already charted, e.g., A380. Much is at stake for them with this program(not the least of which is their credibility)so they can ill-afford to be overly distracted by what Boeing is doing.
That said, I don't believe that Airbus can do much about 7e7 other that to downplay its' significance with respect to cost and performance advantages while ever-beating the A330 drum. They do have a strong hand there although one which diminishes over time. The biggest issue for Airbus is, of course, funding. Having put most of their eggs in the A380 basket, there is probably little left for addressing competitive concerns. Given the scope of the cost-reduction program in place at Airbus and the fact they have already raised the possibility of needing even greater reductions(let alone the problems of the exchange rate), I imagine that they're probably going to have to go with their current line-up with perhaps an upgrade or derivative of some sort. The funding issue may preclude anything else.

This may well be Boeing's opportunity to rebound.

F4N

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