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airjampanam
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What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:11 am

This has been a developing soap opera for a few days now, but I just read that not only is Thomas Cook and South African refusing to comply with sky marshals, South African says it will simply cancel ALL flights to the US if they are asked to comply?
My question is that a realistic response on their part or does it spell financial ruin?
Suing is the new Lotto... if u wanna win u gotta sue!
 
ZSSNC
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:28 am

AirJamPanAm,

no, it is not true that ALL SAA flights to the USA will be cancelled. South African Airways has written a letter to the US Department of Homeland Security informing them that "at this stage we [editor note: SAA] are more concerned with ensuring ground security, than placing armed marshalls on our flights, which we [cf above] believe is a flight risk to our crew, passengers and property. It is therefore the board’s decision that should a flight be identified as a security risk, it will be grounded." (source: travelinfo.co.za)

ZSSNC
Airbus A340-600 - the longest temptation in the sky
 
Leskova
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:32 am

If I'm not mistaken, SAA has not outright refused them - but has said that, for now, they do not see the necessity, and that they would reconsider if they actually got requests for marshalls to be on a specific flight.

As I've said in the thread about Thomas Cook's announcement - I don't really consider it very smart to make a big announcement of the fact that you won't have marshalls on board... at least if you're serious about it... and, also from my comment on that other thread: certainly the airlines have a right to decide not to let air marshalls on board - but it is also the right of the US to, in that case, deny them access to the US.

SAA won't be ruined by not being able to fly to the US, they also operate quite profitably to other parts of the world - but it's also not going to increase profits if they axe the US flights.

Who knows... maybe they'll reroute their flights around the US and into Canada instead...

But, as with so many other threads around, I can say the following: I'll believe it when I see it...

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
airjampanam
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:33 am

I posted my question based on this article...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3827789/
Suing is the new Lotto... if u wanna win u gotta sue!
 
MarcJet66
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:40 am

Regarding to their announcement to have or not air marshals on their flight, I agree 100% with Leskova. It should be kept between the airlines and the government of the respective countries Thomas Cook and SAA are announcing to the world that it won't have them on their flights, it will make them a more attractive target to a possible attack.
At the same time I do agree with the highly security measures on the ground.

Marcos
Marcos
 
FoxBravo
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:45 am

It's not just between the airlines and their own governments, because as soon as the plane enters U.S. airspace, it becomes a threat to the U.S., regardless of where the aircrat is registered or who is operating it. If the U.S. government feels that it is in the best interest of the United States to have air marshals on all flights in or out of the U.S., then it has every right to make that demand. Of course, foreign airlines and governments do not have to comply--they can simply choose to stop serving the U.S., and U.S. airlines would be more than happy to take their business. It's as simple as that.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
Leskova
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:50 am

FoxBravo, that's essentially what I meant when I said, and I quote: "certainly the airlines have a right to decide not to let air marshalls on board - but it is also the right of the US to, in that case, deny them access to the US"

So much for my post number 777 - and I was so hoping that I could use this one in an Airbus vs. Boeing discussion... Big grin
Smile - it confuses people!
 
ZSSNC
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:54 am

FoxBravo,

of course, it is up to the US setting the rules about who may enter its airspace and who not and what condition those carriers have to meet. Yet, it will be decided by the US Department of Homeland Security whether or not they accept SAA's suggestion as outlined in above letter (see reply #1).

Now, about the US carriers taking the business of the affected carriers (in this case SAA). I highly doubt that any US carrier would get traffic rights into South Africa if SAA got denied traffic rights into the US. I base that assumption on two facts: a) the current government in the RSA is not exactly very fond of the current government in the US, b) SAA is still a more or less state-owned airline.

Now, I personally think that SAA would rather comply with the US request than cancel all flights. But then again, I may be wrong.

ZSSNC
Airbus A340-600 - the longest temptation in the sky
 
MarcJet66
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:54 am

Sorry FoxBravo.
When I said the governments I meant The Airline Gov and USA. I understand that USA is trying to protect their Air Space and I would go all the way with them on their right. I wouldn't like to see a plane falling from the sky over my home. What I was saying is that they shouldn't tell the public on their decision so they won't become a target!!
Got me???

Regards

Marcos
Marcos
 
FoxBravo
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:55 am

Leskova, I know, I agree with your post--I was responding to MarcJet66, who I believe misquoted you. Or maybe I misunderstood him too--"respective countres" sounds like the airlines' home countries, but maybe he was referring to the destination country (i.e., the U.S.). If that is the case, please disregard!  Smile
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
Leskova
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:04 am

FoxBravo, I was actually thinking that you were responding to MarcJet66 - I actually wanted to say (and, obviously, I forgot to write that  Big grin) that I'm quite sure that he (as you are) was agreeing with me on that...  Smile

So, with all that out of the way - I think ZSSNC is right in his analysis that, if SAA cannot fly to the US anymore (even if through one of their own decisions), US carriers most likely will not be getting permission to fly to South Africa: in that case, all that will be left is to fly via Europe.

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
FoxBravo
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:32 am

Yes, ZSSNC is absolutely correct that, in the case of South Africa, there are no U.S. airlines on the route (nor are there likely to be in the foreseeable future), and there is no other way to get there without taking a very circuitous trip through Europe. I was speaking more generally, thinking of the various European countries that have balked at the idea of deploying air marshals. Because of the unique situation of South Africa, I hope that this issue will be resolved without SAA suspending its ATL and JFK service. In fact, I hope that no airline, regardless of its home country, will be forced to suspend service as a result of this dispute. But at the same time, I do understand and support the U.S. government's position on the issue.

Anyway, apologies again about my earlier post--it was all a misunderstanding.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
MarcJet66
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:41 am

The other thing that could happen if they cannot get a solution for the air marshals on the SAA flights is the codeshare. I believe SAA already have a codeshare with Delta, but that could be a solution to the lost of revenue on the routes!
Am I going nuts???

Regards

Marcos
Marcos
 
trent900
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:47 am

A lot of pilots in the UK who belong to BALPA would rather not have guns on board.

Could the UK say 'no flights are aloud in UK airspace if they are carrying guns'?

Trent.
 
MarcJet66
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:51 am

What I believe the issue about air marshals is all about is the danger of infiltration by terrorists. How could not be possible to have a terrorist disguised as air marshal. And then, what?
There is so much about it to be discussed!!
Marcos
 
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Richard28
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:56 am

Channel 4 news in the UK today had a tough bit on Air Marshalls, including questionning Alistair Darling (the UK's transport minister) on whether the UK is caving into US demands (by announcing marshals one day before the US demanded it), and even whether BA223 is being used as a stick by the US to get the UK to impose US laws, and even give economic benefit to US carriers.

It is interesting to see in addition to this, there is now some real talk in the media on the merits and otherwise (indeed the possibly of an enhanced risk is my opinion) of placing armed marshalls on aircraft.

Many countries seem to be starting to stand their ground on this issue.

Rich.
 
trent900
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 6:10 am

Richard28:

I agree with everything you said.

Im probably going to get completely bollocked for saying this but why is everyone in the US so insecure? Its as though everyone's acually wanting something to happen when it probably won't.

Maybe the Aliens from Mars are finally going to attack??

Trent.
 
airjampanam
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 6:16 am

The British will go out of their way to appear on the same page with the US, so that aspect of the dispute will be resolved eventually.
Other foreign carriers need to tread lightly on this, terrorism or the potential threat of terrorism is not going to be negotiated away due to Nationalistic pride!
Suing is the new Lotto... if u wanna win u gotta sue!
 
MarcJet66
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 6:18 am

Trent900

This war is true and there are people trying to be bad at Americans if they have a chance. Saying this may trigger bad feelings from our fellows Americans towards you, as it happens to yesterday because of a not very clear statement.

Regards

Marcos
Marcos
 
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blooBirdie
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 6:19 am

From the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3372395.stm

"But Portugal, Denmark and Sweden have all rejected the idea of having armed guards in the air."

Don't know why SAA's been singled out...
 
trent900
Posts: 520
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 6:23 am

Quite true. We all have our opinions. This probably isn't relevant, but why are people trying to be bad to Americans?

The US is a lovely country and I particularly like San Fran.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Trent.
 
Moolies
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 6:27 am

SAA couldnt simply give a shit what happens to them financially.
They are a state run business so all their losses just get hidden by bad acounting work.

Just look they made $800 million loss by heding and 2 years ago made about $1.5-2 billion loss (at todays exchange rate) with a shitty manager called coleman andrews. And guess who his right hand man was, the current CEO of SAA.

So why should they give a shit, they still get paid their millions to do a shit job in management.

Sorry it just really gets my back up with how those people steal from the business.
 
airjampanam
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 6:27 am

Why u ask Trent?
Because we are a land of infidels, who believe in Democracy and civil liberties, and the pursuit of wealth and happiness.
Geez haven't you been paying attention to the promises of future virgins in the after life?
 Smile
Suing is the new Lotto... if u wanna win u gotta sue!
 
bistro1200
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 6:28 am

How about:

Delta serves JFK/ATL to Il del Sol

SAA takes it from there? Would be interesting.
Measure to the millimeter, mark with a crayon, cut with an axe.
 
FoxBravo
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 6:33 am

LOL, AirJamPanAm has summarized it quite nicely.  Smile

The fact is, people ARE trying to kill us, and I wish all the smarta$$es here would stop giving us a hard time about the U.S. government's efforts to prevent another 9/11. If it had happened to your country, you'd be doing the same thing.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
trent900
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 6:36 am

Haven't heard that one before AirJamPanAm, sounds good.

I think the majority of airlines flying to the US will comply with the conditions. Im not sure if there's a time limit for the airlines to sort all this out.

What sort of guns would these police have? Would they use rubber bullets so they don't cause as much damage to the aircraft?

Trent.
 
Moolies
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 6:41 am

No people arnt trying to kill you, your own fear is trying to kill you. Terrorism is not just isloated to america, it is a world wide thing.

Now will all due respect nobody is come down to SA to hijack a 744, its so much easier and closer in the US or UK. Just look at the security measures at each place, having been in all 3 recently.

When ever something goes wrong, u all blame terrorism, u dont blame ur own mess ups, just like that huge power cut in new york.
 
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Richard28
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 6:41 am

I agree with you Trent - San Fran's nice  Smile

What seems to be the issue in the UK, and what our US friends must bare in mind, is that most fire-arms are outlawed in the UK (don't know about South Africa, Denmark etc).

Indeed, even most police officers are not allowed to carry guns. The UK has always been very strict about this, and this helps contribute to a very low level of gun crime/murder compared to the US (cant remember the exact figures - refer to "Bowling for Columbine" for stats)

To say overnight that we should change our thinking, causes a lot of emotional upheaval over here, and concern that we are following the US towards its high levels of crime, and this seemingly idiosyncratic reaction to it.

I'm glad that security is being discussed, but it must be open in its aims, and its effectiveness, so that the public can accept it or otherwise.

I still maintain that cockpit/plane control protection is paramount, and that getting the plane on the ground asap is needed in any new hijack attempt.

The idea of shoot-outs mid air, with possible fatal consequence's for all, does not make me feel safe, nor does the possibility of the marshals gun getting into the hands of the terrorists - marshals are only human, and this could be done either tactically or by force.

A lot needs to be considered, rather than just imposing the same rules.
 
Leskova
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:13 am

MarcJet66, regarding your question in reply #14 - that's actually precise the question that I had asked in another thread today and, fortunately, PiedmontGirl was there to answer the question.

Air Marshalls meet the crews during the pre-flight briefing, so the crews (cockpit and cabin) know who they are. This way there is no chance that, somewhere in the middle of the flight, someone will jump up and say "I'm an Air Marshall".

As I've also said on that other thread, I don't feel well in the presence of guns - on the ground or in the air (while living in California, a friend was shot and wounded standing next to me - by a family member), but given the choice of having terrorists abort a plane with weapons or armed air marshalls that might prevent the terrorists from going through with their plans, I'll prefer to have Air Marshalls on board.

Still, I'd prefer - as probably everyone would - knowing that there simply is absolutely no-one with a weapon aboard.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
FoxBravo
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RE: What Will Become Of South African Airways

Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:27 am

Moolies, what on earth does the blackout have to do with this? No one blamed it on terrorists, anyway. At least no one that I've heard, and I live in NYC.

It's probably pointless to argue with you, but it's that "it won't happen here" mentality, like yours, that allowed 9/11 to happen in the first place. The fact is, we don't know where the next attack will come from. It might not involve planes at all, but then again it might involve an SAA 747 hijacked out of JNB. Wherever there is a weakness, terrorists will eventually exploit it. You're right--terrorism IS a worldwide thing. But we will do whatever is necessary to keep it off our shores in the future.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire

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