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Espion007
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A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:10 am

Recently someone posted a topic about the first part of the fuselage of an a380 was rolled out-and it got me thinking.Airbus says airlines might use the wider,bigger cabin as a chance to have large Y class seats.Although,i think airlines will do something much more different.

More space=
More seats with same dimensions.

Im sure several airlines will try to cramp us into the huge-ass aircraft and make us feel even more of a sardine in Y class. How do you think airlines will treat the large space with the V class?
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Richard28
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:19 am

The lower floor cabin has close dimensions to that of a 744, so expect a 3-4-3 config in Y class.

The upper floor is more like that of an A340, so expect a 2-4-2 Y class config.

As far as seat pitch is concerned, it will be down to each airline, just as it is with other planes.

details and example seating specs are on the airbus website http://www.airbus.com
 
CitationX
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:19 am

Just wait until Corsair or JAL gets their hands on an A-380! We are looking at the maximum designed capacity - PLUS 10%!

"Head 'em up! Move 'em out!!!!!"

I wonder how many seats an A380 can hold, single class, at 31" pitch?
 
Eldoylio
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:22 am

I would be very interested to see EK's proposal as their Y class on 772's and 773's is already 3-4-3!

But as many people have speculated and said again and again in these threads the seating on the A380 is very likely to be based on more pax and yes, more revenue.

I think though that one benefit that may come is a premium economy that is cheaper than most others!
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Greg
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:27 am

The aircraft will be certified to 550 seats initially...pending further evac. testing.

So, they haven't done any real cert. work on a Japanese domestic version.

There is/was some skepticism whether folks would use the upstairs slides (damn right they will if the plane is on fire!).
 
vafi88
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:28 am

It'd be pretty crappy sitting in the bottom deck that doesn't even look like a body of an airplane...

Any guesses on how high the ceiling is going to be on the lower deck?

Vitaly
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iflyatldl
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:20 am

Nothing about that a/c really excites me for some reason. They seem to think More is More. Being crammed together with all those people on that lower deck-YUK! Maybe when they install the Climbing Rock, Putting Green  Big grin
Ah, Summer, Fenway Park, Boston Red Sox and Beer.....
 
KiwiMike
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:29 am

Not to mention, the checking in and trying to locate your baggage after the flight. What a nightmare!!!!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:33 am

I wonder how many seats an A380 can hold, single class, at 31" pitch?

At this point, the A388 is more limited by the number of people it can evacutate (using 50% of its exits in 90 seconds or less) than by its physical dimensions
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nwacrew
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:50 am

Airbus can wax lyrical all it wants over the A380, but I don't believe the flying public is going to be eating up the "Gosh!" "Gee!" superlatives the way they did when the first double-deck airliner appeared four decades ago. We're all a lot wiser - and more jaded.

This new jumbo is going to be just one more cattle car from hell by the time the airlines have squeezed in every possible revenue producing seat.

 
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Richard28
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Wed Jan 21, 2004 9:30 am

Nwacrew, I have to disagree with you.

I often find it amazing how many people I hear at airports saying "oooo! its a jumbo" or something similar as they board a B744. People do tend to get excited about it!

With the A380, I can only see this continuing, esp. when the airlines put some marketing hype behind the machine (I'm still intrigued as to what VS will do with it)

We must also consider the price of tickets, if all things work out okay, then A380 flights could be cheaper (or generate more revenue!), this is certainly a pax pleaser.
 
Ruscoe
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Wed Jan 21, 2004 9:43 am

One thing that really worries me about the 380 is the upper deck.

It has a similar floor width to 340 but the walls will slope at a very acute angle. I think it will be very claustrophobic when full of people.

It would be very interesting to measure the volume available per passenger for each deck and compare this with say the volume available on other types.

If someone can give me the cabin height on the upper deck I would be happy to do the calculations.

I suppose this height is available but I have not been ablre to find it.

Ruscoe
 
OttoPylit
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Wed Jan 21, 2004 9:52 am

I agree with NWACrew. This is the airline industry and in the current industry focus, you will get as much as you can for less. Ever since the birth of the A380 on paper(more like computer), everyone has touted about this being an aircraft that would have everything short of an Olympic size swimming pool on board. Lets see, they have said that there could be any combination of duty free shops, showers, workout rooms, bed suites, dancing floors, restaurants, and many more that I am sure I missed. However, from the outset I have said that airlines will cram as many seats on there as they can. And I am correct. Maybe Branson, going for the public ego that he has, will add something that the others don't, but for the most part, you will not see any difference in seat size, seat pitch(maybe 2 or 3 inches), or anything else. It will look just like any other airliner, just with another floor running the length of the plane.

Its as simple as that.
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tavong
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:50 am

In fact i agree usually airliners squeeze passengers in economy as much has possible so no matter what Airbus says airlines are the ones who decide how to use the plane and has aiways they will surely put has much seats has possible, they have been doing that with avery airliner possible from a Twin Otter to the 747-400 so i don't think passengers will see any difference on the A380, only more problems.
Just put me on any modern airliner and i will be happy, give me more star alliance miles and i will be a lot happier.
 
N754PR
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:41 pm

Thats the airlines choice, its nothing to do with Airbus.

I'm guessing VS will put the same crappy Y seating but do special things like a bar (A346) and gym.
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longhaulheavy
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:00 pm

NWACrew, I think you've got it. We're about as likely to see new amenities on the A380 as we are to see a return of the upper-deck lounge and bar on the 747's.
 
nwacrew
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:19 pm

As for showman Richard Branson going all out to please Y-class passengers on the A-380; any of you tried to find a place to put your LEGS while seated in the back of one of Virgin's long-range A340-600's? (Just try not cutting your leg on the sharp metal corners of that friggin' IFE box!)

For every Kate Winslett sipping champagne upfront on the A-380, while she awaits her massage...there will be thousands of poor Leonardo di Caprio's crammed aft; suffering this century's version of steerage hell...
 
777MAS
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:42 pm

anyone willing to bet we'll see 3-5-3 seating?
 
IslandHopperCO
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:53 pm

Already done...Emirates has already announced 3-5-3 seating if I remember correctly. Cattlecar indeed!
 
chgoflyer
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:41 pm

cost are going to be higher than projected which means they need to sell more seats.. its going to be exactly what its name states= a large bus
Will someone please wake me up in 4 years
 
Joni
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:51 pm


If there are more seats installed, at least the seats will cost less to the airline, per flight, and thus via competition they ought to cost less to the passengers as well.

 
artsyman
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Wed Jan 21, 2004 6:03 pm

and thus via competition they ought to cost less to the passengers as well.
*****
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VirginFlyer
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Wed Jan 21, 2004 6:33 pm

Please don't forget that, initially anyway, the A380-800 will only be certified to hold 555 passengers. This represents a 35% increase on the seating capacity of the Boeing 747-400 (presumably we are talking about standard 3 class here - the 747 figure is 412 by these numbers). However, the aircraft will have 49% more floor space than the 747-400. Now, for those of you who are not that great with maths, this means the, per passenger, there will be more floor space per passenger on the A380-800 than on the 747-400. Airlines will not be able to do anything about this until the aircraft is certified to carry more than 555 passengers. Now whether or not such features as duty free shops (read cupboard), libraries (read bookshelf) or showers (probably no larger than the size of a toilet cubicle) etc become realities is something we will have to wait and see. But you cannot argue with the figures - the A380-800, when it enters into service in 2006, will have more space per passenger than the 747-400.

V/F
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nudelhirsch
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:11 pm

I surely do not want his to happen, but I wonder, how a crash would affect the industry or especially the 380. I mean, it doesn't even have to be a failure of the airline or the manufacturer, crashes happen out of different reasons. But I'm sure, quite a load of people would hesitate booking a flight on a 380 and we could see some converted to freighters, maybe some in Mojave, but the losses for the carriers would be unbearable and kick some of them right out of business.

But as I mentioned, I do hope, that nothing serios happens...surely for all aircrafts and especially the people flying, so not only the 380, but also C172s...
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
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scbriml
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Thu Jan 22, 2004 12:25 am

Any plane crash is bad news. If you're flying on a plane that crashes, that's really bad news! Given enough time and numbers flying, every type of plane will crash (yes, no in service A330/A340 or B777 has crashed yet, but eventually, as sure as eggs is eggs, they will).

I'm not aware of any public backlash against any type of plane that's crashed previously. I don't remember people refusing to fly on 747s after Teneriffe or Lockerbie. Likewise with DC-10s after a series of accidents.

Don't forget, 99% of the flying public don't have a clue what type of plane they're flying on. "Oh, it's a Boeing-Douglas Airbus L-1011" [to quote a previous thread!]
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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voodoo
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Thu Jan 22, 2004 12:39 am

I'm waiting to see if Airbus will jockey the 380 about at airshows in the same style as they have with all their previous FBW aircraft (and even the Beluga as well assuming that one isn't FBW).

[Edited 2004-01-21 16:40:35]
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
nwacrew
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:58 am

"99% of the flying public don't have a clue what type of plane they're flying on."

You're absolutely correct, Scbriml.

As many of you know, Northwest is flying the venerable DC10 between San Francisco and Tokyo. You would not believe how many passengers step from the jetway into the cabin, look at the large, bright interior, and ask me "Is this a new plane?"
 
iflyatldl
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:07 am

nwacrew:
I've been on your DC-10's twice in the last few years(DTW-FRA and BOS-AMS) and if you didn't know better, you'd swear you were on a brand new plane that could pass for the MD-11. I'd fly them again in a heart beat.!  Big thumbs up
Ah, Summer, Fenway Park, Boston Red Sox and Beer.....
 
wally
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:06 am

From what’s been posted here, the US will see a limited number of A380s. Even so, I have a hard time squaring visions of flying duty free strip malls, and gyms in a time where cabin crews get nervous when the lavatory queue rises above 3 people.
 
Ruscoe
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Thu Jan 22, 2004 7:03 am

Virginflyer,
Thats OK on the mid deck but tourist class volume on the upper deck, which can be calculated using figures supplied on the Airbus website, will not be so nice.

I do not have the figures in front of me, but if you calculate volume per passenger, then upper deck tourist section comes in somewhere around 0.8 cubic metres, is about half the volume on the mid deck.

Problem with the upper deck are its slopeing walls.

PS However as has been pointed out one does not have to worry about overcrowding because the 380 is limited by evacuation time not space or weight. So 554 it is. No need for 11 across, unless of course the airline is going to offer a lot of business seats, in which case cattle class will become, Lemming class.

Ruscoe
 
KGAI
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Sun Jan 25, 2004 7:38 am

I don't see the problem here. The A380 is longer than the 747, but the main deck will have less people, mainly because the front of the interior is taken up by the stair.

As a passenger, you deal with the volume immediately around your seat, and the A380 will have wider seats than the 747.

As for upstairs, yes, the walls will slope. But there also seems to be a storage shelf next to the window, like in the 747 upper deck. So it should work out alright.


The part about baggage. That's true. But if you assume that the airline only flies the A380 because they need it, then you would also think they'd fly 2 planes or more if there was no A380. The number of passengers, and therefore baggage, will remain the same.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Sun Jan 25, 2004 12:37 pm

I think you won't see much more than 580 pax maximum on the A380-800 due to the ICAO airplane evacuation requirements. This is why VS is configuring their A388's to 524 seats, and I've heard that the SQ configuration will be around 510 seats (mostly due to the larger First and Raffles class seating).
 
Krags
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Sun Jan 25, 2004 12:53 pm

Just wait until Corsair or JAL gets their hands on an A-380! We are looking at the maximum designed capacity - PLUS 10%!

"Head 'em up! Move 'em out!!!!!"


 Big thumbs up LMAO! That was great Citation. And true.
 
b727
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Sun Jan 25, 2004 1:40 pm

Doesnt the high capacity 747 carry close to 530 passsengers now? What is the sense of the new A380. Unless it will be fitted through out the cabin with 1st class seats why bother, Boeing already has developed the aircraft of that capacity
 
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scbriml
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Sun Jan 25, 2004 4:42 pm

B727, yes in an all economy class config, you can squeeze over 500 in a 747. In the same configuration, the seating capacity of the A380 would be closer to 700! Emirates has said they're interested in fitting something like 650 seats in some of their A380s for their high density routes.

The A380's quoted 555 capacity is in an average 3-class layout.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
cfm-56
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Sun Jan 25, 2004 5:37 pm

I wonder how long escape slide they will need for the evacuation from the upper deck? I reckon it would be quite a ride from up there!
 
cloudy
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 1:47 pm

Please don't forget that, initially anyway, the A380-800 will only be certified to hold 555 passengers. This represents a 35% increase on the seating capacity of the Boeing 747-400 (presumably we are talking about standard 3 class here - the 747 figure is 412 by these numbers). However, the aircraft will have 49% more floor space than the 747-400. Now, for those of you who are not that great with maths, this means the, per passenger, there will be more floor space per passenger on the A380-800 than on the 747-400. Airlines will not be able to do anything about this until the aircraft is certified to carry more than 555 passengers. Now whether or not such features as duty free shops (read cupboard), libraries (read bookshelf) or showers (probably no larger than the size of a toilet cubicle) etc become realities is something we will have to wait and see. But you cannot argue with the figures - the A380-800, when it enters into service in 2006, will have more space per passenger than the 747-400.
-----------

As I and others keep saying in other threads, this "49% more floor space" does not represent as much actual usable space per passenger as you are suggesting. Much of it is taken up by the extra aisle, stairway and entrance/exit space needed to satisfy evacuation requirements for both decks.

Since the 747 is (mainly) a single deck aircraft, it is more efficient in using floor space than the 380. It needs only two full length aisles. It does not need a cruise-ship like stairway to board the upper deck. The A380's big stairway is not a luxury feature. It is a design neccesity if you have 2 full decks. It takes up a lot of space.

Someone also mentioned the effect of an accident. Sooner or later it will happen, but chances are by the time it happens the plane will be so well established that it will not be able to be avoided or withdrawn. This is what happened with the 747. Two 747's were involved for what was the worst accidental plane crash in history - when the two planes colided the ground in Tenerife. Only a crash of a full A380 with no survivors could surpass this - yet the 747 did not get a bad reputation even from Tenerife.

One concern that may have some validity is that of in-flight medical diversions. The more passengers you carry, the more risk of a medical diversion - which is the most common kind of unscheduled landing. Such diversions are more expensive, inconvenience more people, and play more havoc with schedules when they happen to larger aircraft. For many obvious reasons, it is better to have a 777 delayed than a A380. From a passenger's point of view, the more fellow passengers you are traveling with at a time, the greater risk that your plane will be diverted. Some have hypothesized that this statistical risk may set a practical upper limit to the passenger capacity of a commercial airliner, making it unlikely that we will ever see such craft as a 1,000 passenger BWB.
 
pixuk
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 12:24 am

As far as VS goes, my guesstimate would be that they would probably increase the capacity of there Premium Economy cabin to soak up some of the extra space, as PE is almost always the first class to sell out.

I don't expect to see a strip-mall anytime soon, as it wouldn't generate the revenue to justify its existence, but a 'casino' has been touted in some of the pre-hype. That may have more chance of making the cut, since it could be a nice little earner for the airline. It wouldn't exactly be the size of the Bellagio, and it may even be restricted to the Upper Class cabin, but it would certainly bring in more revenue than an in-flight MacDonald's (god, perish the thought!).

Pix
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 12:46 am

How about a bowling alley? Must be fun to aim at pins, while the plane is vibrating, and banking, and shaking...

Probably most carriers wil rather use space for cargo or more pax, instead of these funny goodies, we would sure like to see...
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
Areopagus
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:26 am

How about a bowling alley? Must be fun to aim at pins, while the plane is vibrating, and banking, and shaking...

Imagine what could happen in sudden turbulence!



 
FDH
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:27 am

When will the A380 be certified to carry more than 555 PAX? What does Airbus need to do to make this happen?

Until this happens, what prevents a company to operate a 555-PAX A380 with cargo (assuming weight is below MTOW)? If it is possible, the A380 will be as cramped as other airliners.

FDH
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 4:25 am

How about a bowling alley? Must be fun to aim at pins, while the plane is vibrating, and banking, and shaking...

That'll get most bowling aficionados to fly it, since it's the only way most of them will ever bowl a 300 game.  Nuts
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
jutes85
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 4:47 am

Only a crash of a full A380 with no survivors could surpass this - yet the 747 did not get a bad reputation even from Tenerife..

That was because the 747's crashed due to pilot and ATC error, not mechanical. Still, even in a crash, people still don't realize that it is due to pilot or mechanical, they just hear a 747 crashed and they can think it is a bad aircraft. But if a 747 does crash, its reputation will never decrease because it was such a great aircraft when it came out. I'm an Airbus fan, but the 747 is my favorite aircraft.
nothing
 
dw747400
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:47 am

I wasn't around back when the DC-10 was having its teething problems, but a number of people I have talked to say that many people were afraid of the big tri-jet.... I know a couple of folks who still refuse to fly a DC-10 (if no one told them it was a -10, they probably would be just fine though.)

A major design problem could be devastating to the A380, but the chances of a DC-10 like incident are pretty small.

Anyway, if you want a comfy plane... just slip some cash to the inspectors conducting the evac test and ask that the 50% of exits which are randomly inop be all on the lower deck... get the plane certified for 320 pax, and you'll have plenty of legroom.
CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
 
Shenzhen
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:56 pm

Funny that I've never seen anything that says the A380 will be certified for only 550 passengers. The only thing i've seen is that Airbus says it will seat that many in a 3 class configuration.

Then again, they say the A340-600 seats 380, whilst it is only FAA certified for 379.

Cheers
 
Alessandro
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:33 pm

You get what you pay for, easy as that, I´m not too worried with the space inside the plane, you can always go for a walkabout when going to the bathroom. Problem is that with a large amount of people onboard you have someone with an illness that could spread throu the air, that worries me more...
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Krags
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:47 pm

Would it be possible for an airline to carry passengers just on the upper deck and use the lower deck for cargo? You would have to board on the lower deck but would this even be possible? I flew in a SR 747-300 and the rear of the cabin carried cargo so I'm assuming it was a "combi" aircraft. With the A380 you could carry a lot of cargo and still carry a couple hundred people. It may not even be possible but does anyone know?









 
Q330
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:14 pm

3-5-3!? Ugh! When in the future I fly on an A380, I'll be sure to request upper deck. The sloping walls won't bother me, but the 2-4-2 will be like a more pleasant A330 or something. I think that if airlines kept the 3-4-3 on the lower deck like the 747 and really advertised to let the public know that they would be getting bigger seats in Y class, they could be successful. I know that Qantas has been extensively advertising their "skybed" business seats (on the 744s). If they use 3-4-3 on their A380s and advertise bigger Y class seats, the word could get out.

I am sure of one thing, airliners won't get any bigger than the A380 anytime soon.

-Q
Long live the A330!
 
BN747
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RE: A380:feeling A Bit More Cramped?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:29 pm

When the AA DC-10 went down in ORD..there was significant DC-10 backlash. 1st they were all grounded. And DC-10 operators went scrambling for substitutions. After they were deemed airworthy again...everyone knew what a DC-10 was and backing away from DC-10 bookings. A year or two later the fears subsided.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Klaus
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Krags

Mon Feb 02, 2004 2:04 am

Krags: Would it be possible for an airline to carry passengers just on the upper deck and use the lower deck for cargo?

As far as I know, that´s one of the planned variations. And since a least the FAA doesn´t certify combis any more with cargo and pax on the same deck, the 380 may be the only new combi around.

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