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Adria
Topic Author
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7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:46 am

I just recently read that Japan will build the 7E7 wing and not Boeing itself.Isn't that a manufacturers most kept secret? And Boeing has only a 35% of the production .Isn't that a low share?
 
gigneil
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RE: 7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:48 am

Its been a major union scandal, and an American scandal, that Boeing is outsourcing the wing production to a non-Boeing entity.

It is traditionally kept secret, yes. Even better, this will be the single most advanced wing ever built.

N
 
wn700driver
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RE: 7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:52 am

I'll bet transporting the wings to Kansas or Everett or where ever wont be much fun either.
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
Sjoerd
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RE: 7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 5:43 am

Not sure it will be build, no orders so far.
Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
 
CRJ'sRule
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RE: 7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 5:44 am

Doesn't Boeing usually use contractors for parts of its aircraft such as wings?
 
kalakaua
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RE: 7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:01 am

It's already known. It was released in late November 2003.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2003/q4/nr_031120g.html
Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion.
 
rjpieces
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RE: 7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:03 am

Sjoerd, keep dreaming.......Boeing today just announced who the contractors for the parts are.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2004/q1/nr_040202h.html
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
gigneil
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RE: 7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:05 am

Contractors for the parts aren't relevant if nobody orders it, Reese's Pieces.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

N
 
kalakaua
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RE: 7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:08 am

Contractors for the parts aren't relevant if nobody orders it...

Haha... You make me laugh!!!  Wink/being sarcastic
Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion.
 
gigneil
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RE: 7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:11 am

Yeah, I get a good chuckle out of myself every now and again, too.  Smile

The point is, nobody has ordered it yet. Boeing can announce all the minutiae they want, but the only thing anyone gives a shit about is an order.

Hardly trying to suggest nobody will buy it, but if it were as appealing as the A.Net board member police think it is, then one would think it would have an order by now.

N
 
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STT757
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RE: 7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:11 am

"no orders so far"

They haven't announced they are taking any orders yet, keep your pants on.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: 7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:13 am

Sure they did. They started in December.

The official authorization to offer sorta implies that if someone accepted an offer, they'd take it.

N
 
Adria
Topic Author
Posts: 781
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RE: 7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:46 am

I just wonder what airlines are going to order it. It isn't a good A310 replacement since it is heavier and the airlines didn't order the shortened version of the A332 either. But I still think orders will start to come
 
rjpieces
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RE: 7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:23 am

Any airline that needs a 767/A300 replacement. Also, if its economics are that great other airlines will buy it to augment their fleets.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
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vanguard737
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RE: 7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 9:14 am

GIGNEIL

"Sure they did. They started in December.

The official authorization to offer sorta implies that if someone accepted an offer, they'd take it."
I LOVE it when people think they know what they're talking about, like you Gigneil.

You say yes they did, then as your proof you say that in YOUR OPINION, they authorization to build should mean the acceptance and public announcement of orders as well.

DONT STATE YOUR OPINIONS AS FACT, buddy  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Adios
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AvObserver
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RE: 7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 9:47 am

This is still a lousy time to launch a brand-new airplane, with the U.S. majors Boeing depends so much on still in recovery mode (some of them still on life support). So I'm not too surprised no orders have materialized yet, even though a lot of carriers are looking at the 7E7. I expect there will be some orders by midyear, perhaps enough to launch the program but I think if we see none by then, there may be cause for concern at Boeing. Most analysts I've read seem to there's a large potential market for this airplane so a dearth of orders this year probably would mean the overall market just hasn't sufficiently recovered for most potential operators to commit just yet.
 
Thrust
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RE: 7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 9:59 am

Sounds like the 7E7 would serve AA's purposes well, as they can greatly break down the size of their fleet, replacing the 767s and the A300's simultaneously.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
rjpieces
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: 7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:16 am

All of the US majors will be 7E7 customers in the future (except perhaps NW and US, if US is still around)...They are just in crappy shape now and none of them can afford to be launch customer.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
dalecary
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RE: 7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 12:17 pm

Bit hard to order a plane when the powerplant providers have as yet to be decided. The Boeing timeline pretty much suggests they expect some LOIs/MOUs from the 2nd quarter of this year,when the basic design is fully known.
AFAIK, Boeing are working with 50-odd airlines on the plane's development and several RFPs have already been requested.
I would like to know how long it took Airbus to get their 1st 380 order(SQ) from a similar stage. I would venture that it was several months, at least.
The plane will be ordered and most likely be a big success, just as the 380 will be(IMO). We all just need a bit of patience and to realise not many airlines out there are in a position to order new aircraft and most of those will be choosing b/w the 32X and 737NG families.

Dale.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
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RE: 7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 12:35 pm

You say yes they did, then as your proof you say that in YOUR OPINION, they authorization to build should mean the acceptance and public announcement of orders as well.


This isn't about opinion.

There's been no authorization to build.

There's been an authorization to offer, with the inherent taking of commitments therein. Its part of the process.

If the plane doesn't get launched, then the commitments will not be fulfilled.

N
 
delta-flyer
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RE: 7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 1:32 pm

Its been a major union scandal, and an American scandal, that Boeing is outsourcing the wing production to a non-Boeing entity.
The "non-Boeing entity" is not just a subcontractor building the wing, but a risk-sharing partner who will be helping design the wing as well, at their own expense. Without these risk-sharing partners, Boeing may not be designing any more new commercial airplanes.

Hardly trying to suggest nobody will buy it, but if it were as appealing as the A.Net board member police think it is, then one would think it would have an order by now.
Boeing has been collaborating with 50 airlines to define the specifications of the 7E7. Do you think these airlines are just wasting their time trying to humor Boeing? I think Boeing knows what it's doing and orders will be forthcoming before the end of the first quarter.

By the way, who is the "A.Net board member police"?

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
Adria
Topic Author
Posts: 781
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RE: 7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:53 pm

It is a good trick to get the Japan customers to buy the 7E7
 
PVD757
Posts: 3286
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:23 pm

RE: 7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:59 pm

Welcome to the world economy. I think this is the only way Boeing gets this plane built. Both A and B are going to continue this trend in the future.
 
MD-11 forever
Posts: 550
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:15 am

RE: 7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:59 pm

"It is a good trick to get the Japan customers to buy the 7E7"

...not to talk about the Japanese taxpayers money to fund some of the development costs!

Cheers, Thomas
 
rabenschlag
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RE: 7E7 Production

Tue Feb 03, 2004 9:30 pm

has boeing only a 35% share of the design process? up to now i theought that it would be disigned by boeing and then the parts would be produced elsewhere.

does anyone know how much japanese tax money will be used to subsidize design and production? will they have to pay it back like airbus has to or will it be a gift of the ministry of industry?

maybe the japanese genes will guarantee a superior reliability of the 7e7.

 
bobrayner
Posts: 2038
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2003 8:03 am

RE: 7E7 Production

Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:43 am

has boeing only a 35% share of the design process? up to now i theought that it would be disigned by boeing and then the parts would be produced elsewhere.

No; it's a 35% share of structures. Building an airplane requires more than just structures. We can assume that more of the design will be in Boeing's hands.
Cunning linguist
 
delta-flyer
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RE: 7E7 Production

Wed Feb 04, 2004 3:48 am

Boeing has overall responsibility to integrate the structures and systems. The work related to the structures and systems is carefully divided into logical packages, with clearly defined work-share between the supplier and Boeing. Each package is offered to competent suppliers who then present their business case to Boeing. Boeing has already down-selected one or more prospective suppliers for each work package (structure or system) and they are currently in the process of narrowing it down to one supplier for each package.

The Japanese partners are large companies such as Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Kawasaki, and others, who will be responsible for financing their own contributions (as are all the partners). If they get government funding, that's their business. However, even if they do receive government funding, it is not a subsidy, in the true sense of the word, because all the risk-sharing partners will eventually recover their investments with profit once the program matures. When Boeing makes money, so will all the risk-sharing partners. ("Subsidy" refers to funding that will intentionally lose money in perpetuity, but is provided for a greater good.)

Airbus has also engaged suppliers' help in the aircraft design process on the A380, although not to this extent. On the other hand, all the RJ manufacturers use this business model exclusively.

What Boeing is doing is not a "trick" to force money out of taxpayers or force a whole country to buy only one brand of airplane. It's a business opportunity that, if successful, can result in a partner nation moving to the next level of technology and prosperity.

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
brons2
Posts: 2480
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2001 1:02 pm

RE: 7E7 Production

Wed Feb 04, 2004 4:02 am


maybe the japanese genes will guarantee a superior reliability of the 7e7.


Your bias is showing. We are not talking about Chevrolet or Ford here.

The 777 has a higher dispatch reliability than the A340
The 737NG has a higher dispatch reliability than the A32X.

Direct quote from a JetBlue MX person:
"The A320 has a lot of spurrious faults. It's kind of a nuisance."

anyways, to get back on topic:

I personally don't think that any order will be forthcoming for the 7E7 until the engine selections are defined.

[Edited 2004-02-03 20:02:48]
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
AvObserver
Posts: 2605
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 7:40 am

RE: 7E7 Production

Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:15 am

"Its been a major union scandal, and an American scandal, that Boeing is outsourcing the wing production to a non-Boeing entity."

"The "non-Boeing entity" is not just a subcontractor building the wing, but a risk-sharing partner who will be helping design the wing as well, at their own expense. Without these risk-sharing partners, Boeing may not be designing any more new commercial airplanes."

I actually agree with BOTH of these points. As much a shame as it is, it's necessary for Boeing to compete in the current climate. Which raises an interesting question probably best not debated in this thread. Most of us Boeing backers in the U.S. use the rationale that more Boeing success is better for the American economy. But what will happen to our resolve, supposing Boeing's drop in marketshare, combined with outsourcing from other nations, results in Airbus becoming a bigger contributor to the U.S. economy? I think it could happen and wouldn't that put a lot of us Boeing boosters in a real quandry? Food for thought.  Big grin

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